A looming election join me Steve Clemons in conversation with leading voices on the bottom line your weekly take on u. S. Politics and society on aljazeera. Their welcome to the stream home edition im josh rushing sitting in today for femi ok now if youre watching this live on the you tube see that box over there thats of live you tube chat jump in there share your comments your questions with us because we have a producer waiting to get those to me so i can get on to our experts on the panel today and in fact weve already got people in there look this is a cheat a man 42 this says prison is just another layer of Voter Suppression no surprise minorities are targeted and heres Michael Riley the says its a big no you kind of give up your right to vote when you go to jail in my opinion there are so many people in jail that could sway the vote and people in jail with Different Things from those out of jail now this is become a bit of a celebrity issue and back check out this video that omar epps posted on twitter. If youre like me you know americas criminal Justice System is broken whether its affected you personally or not its something we need to talk about right now even though crime rates across the u. S. Are going down america locks up 7 times more people now than we did in 1997 times we as americans put more people behind bars than any other nation in the world both as a percentage of population and in total numbers more than russia china how does that add up to 2300000. 00 people and thats about. It nothing changes one out of every 17 white men will end up in jail one in 6 latinos and also one in 4 the lachmann born today will be locked up at some point in their life. So as he mentioned were talking about 2300000. 00 americans citizens who are carcer if theyre currently behind bars but this issue also affects a Larger Population of people who were formerly incarcerated that includes it goes out to about 6100000 citizens who are disenfranchised from the vote now im going to ask our guest to introduce themselves here robert will you introduce yourself. Thanks for having me on robert why dont men at Large Council member in that their shirt the colombian a strong champion for incarcerated and formerly incarcerated residents right thank you and then tell you the story of california good morning to you know slowly out there communities yourself please absolutely my name is tina vargas admin im the founder and executive director of initiate justice we activate the political power of people directly impacted by our situation and are leading a Ballot Initiative here in california to restart Voting Rights to people and for all. Thanks a lot then jeff is joining us from boston jeff how you doing today hey josh hi jeff jacoby im a columnist for the boston globe ive been writing on the op ed page the opinion page of the globe since 1904 my politics are sort of a mix of conservative and libertarian and on this issue i definitely come down against the idea of letting felons. Well thats the status quo in the country right now so lets begin right there why jeff well we can have a whole fruitful conversation about criminal Justice Reform and whether there ought to be changes in the penal system in this country but when it comes to prison imprisonment when it comes to punishing felons when it comes to the fate of criminals the very idea of going to prison reflects societys decision that criminals who have been convicted dont go on in society at large that they shouldnt be taking are in the normal function of civic light when you send someone to prison you are by definition depriving them of important basic rights their right to freedom the right to movement their right to privacy and also their right to vote the time for prisoners to reclaim the vote is after they paid their debt to society but i believe and i think the vast majority of americans believe that while youre behind bars while youre paying the penalty for a serious crime that you committed that you were prosecuted for that you were convicted of you shouldnt at the same time be taken are you lot from process and helping to let the people who make laws and voting on on Ballot Initiatives youve lost that right at least for the time that youre in prison. But just the same society counts those inmates wherever theyre imprisoned as living there in that county and then they use that census data to draw all the electoral maps for post they imperil offices why does a prisoner count when it comes to that kind of what some people might call gerrymandering but then they dont count when it comes time to cast their vote just the same thing is true of miners miners certainly count for purposes of congressional of course not but they dont get that vote new immigrants people who are green card holders permanent residents legal permanent residents who arent yet citizens also count in terms of congressional or a child in terms of representation in congress but they also dont get the vote if you dont report quite get right to vote in the United States you cannot be deprived of the vote on certain grounds you cant be deprived of the vote because of your race or your because of your age as long as youre 18 or older. But you can be deprived or other drugs including the grounds of being a criminal and have been convicted of a serious crime and sent to prison diana what do you think is voting a privilege or right. I believe in democracy voting isnt right i fundamentally believe that democracy needs everyone and i actually want to respond to one of the comments that came in through the live stream around the sense that people who are incarcerated dont have the same priorities those of us who are out here living in the free world do so last year initiate justice did a survey of more than a 1000 currently incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people and asked them what their political priorities are because we its really important for us to be able to debunk these myths so over 90 percent of folks said that they are mostly concerned about Public Safety they want to reduce crime they want to find support for victims and survivors of crime they care about health care they care about our Education System we have this misconception that people who are incarcerated are no longer part of society but i push back against that very strongly people who are incarcerated are more keenly aware of how policy impacts their lives probably more than anybody else in the country when you are incarcerated policy dictates what you wear how often youre allowed to see your family what food you are allowed to eat when you are allowed to eat you understand very very clearly why it is important to be involved in your democracy and if we want to talk about Public Safety and not about our over our focus and our obsession with punishment in this country lets talk about the fact that people feel more connected to the communities when they have the right to vote and people who are more connected to the community are more likely to engage in prosocial behavior when we tell people impacted by and her situation that essentially we cast away your thoughts your opinions your feelings no longer matter then of course we can expect when folks come home to end up going back to prison and so i think that we need to be talking about this. Lens of Public Safety and talking about why is that we even take away peoples right to vote in the 1st place it is simply based on punishment it is simply because we are mad at p. Well who is mean mistakes and ultimately what we need to be focusing on are underlying causes why do people end up getting incarcerated in the 1st place and its usually because of deep deep failures in our system and we are further exacerbating those failures when we are telling people impacted by incarceration that they do not have a voice and they cannot be part of Political Solutions brain are you saying the criminal never be punished and know what youre going to prison i dont think fairly what you said jeff you made the point earlier that people are in prison as a punishment for their crime and thats fair i dont think most people would argue with that but we have to make a distinction between an appropriate punishment for crime and the basic right of citizenship and so when you are incarcerated when youre convicted of a felony you dont lose your citizenship in fact you dont lose most of your constitutional protections you still have the right to free speech you still have the right to counsel you still have most of your rights so why would we in a democracy believe that someone should lose their most basic right of democracy or most basic right of citizenship when they are incarcerated i just think its inappropriate and historically we did this at some point the states not the federal government but the states mostly to suppress the vote of poor people and then black voters and this time to undo that i know weve become accustomed to this but its not appropriate for democracy nor does it in any way make us better or safer. I dont just mean robert how does that enhanced democracy agree that voting is a basic element of any Democratic Society but so is freedom of speech so is freedom of privacy so has the right not to be subjected. To intrusive searches and seizures we take those rights away from prisoners when we put them behind bars why is voting something so magical and special when were talking about people who have victimized others and are being punished for doing so well it will 1st of all again this is a basic right of citizenship in our democracy is better if more people participate but beyond that we recognize im sure you recognize the disparity between incarceration of africanamericans and white americans it is so low that one in 13 or one in 13 African Americans have lost the right to vote due to incarceration compared to one in 56. 00 of nonblack voters so even if that is not the intent of disenfranchising incarcerated felons we have to agree that that has been the impact and thats not fair nor is that a Good Practice for democracy i think we can occur and were going to try the other one i would like to see here is how does it actually make a state fair its a take away a persons right to lie can you point to any statistics or any evidence that when somebody is about to commit a murder they say oh actually let me not do this because i know that im going to lose my right to vote can you point to any statistics that say a person is less likely to return to prison because their Voting Rights have been removed if were talking about the Justice System were talking about safety which ultimately i think is what we are care about so how is this actually protecting Public Safety and not just punishing people for the sake of punishment but i would point to 2 things to Roberts Point about that disproportionate of prisoners of color theres also a greater just proportion of victims of color the far greater majority of people have been victimized by crime are americans of color. And i dont see how its fair to them to give those who prey on them those who victimize them those who committed crimes against them or their loved ones electoral power and to your point you take the rapist and you take the rapists victim and you say to them youre both going to have an equal say in an american political Decision Making is that is that just is that fair does that seem rational to say to someone who sent to prison because he really didnt d like shit because he cheated in the political process to say to him nevertheless while youre behind bars were still going to let you take our election and and interesting about it which was really a favor just spared impact on africanamericans jeff i did your question would you agree that our laws our laws have a disparate impact on africanamericans i just i just very impact in the way the number one im not american that and that is that there is a High Pressure it would be everywhere written but i would say that the laws are written in order to have a disparate impact but that doesnt matter if the effect of it is that theres a lot of debris at a bar or it does not more than one not resident of not more than 90 percent of prisoners are male would you say that our criminal Justice System has a disparate impact on males as opposed to females sure where that earlier was written in order to hurt men but it doesnt matter if they were written to hurt africanamericans if we know the impact thats how the law treats things like Sexual Harassment there are certain things where its hard to prove and so you look at the impact of certain treatment but what if we can agree and i think that you should be able to agree that are lost have had a disparate impact and i think the reason you want to answer is because like we we agree on on that point is that right i am answering. Yes theres a disparate number there isnt just a number of prisoners of color but i point out theres also a disproportionate number of prisoners who are male and yet we dont say when it comes to gender well the laws has a disparate impact therefore we should we should i didnt i dont fight what i think goes well and i just. I i would to get a cup of coffee out nope i missed anything. Really but im going to bring in a voice actually from inside this is Briana Thayer she is an inmate at the Southern Maine womens Reentry Center again maine is one of the 2 states that allow people to vote from behind bars. Hi my name is brianna who currently incarcerated in the state of maine which is one of only 2 states that allows inmates to vote i think its really important for us to have a vote because the vast majority of us will someday be released into the communities and so taking part in shaping policies and procedures is really important we deserve to be heard just as much as the next person. And i think its really important that our votes directly affect not only the communities that we will go back to but also the systems that hearts are needed us the laws and procedures rules all of those things. You know really are shaped by people on the outside and it would be great to have some inside points to help really change the way in society looks at criminals and then from our you tube audience user choice says people serving life in jail need not have the right to vote those who eventually come out should vote because they will be a part of the society again so its in their interest to choose picking up back where you guys left off jeff do you agree that theres a racial bias baked into the criminal Justice System in the us. Based into the laws no i agree that there is a Racial Disparity in the way in the number of prisoners and in that in the statistics i dont agree that its baked into the due process system if you think there is if you think theres a problem with the way christ was prosecuted and punished in this country but thats something that ought to be addressed as a specific abduction reality but i dont have people telling you that you make a great point jot them by all means lets have a debate about criminal Justice Reform which as a libertarian im all in favor of but when the laws are passed in 48 of the states by the way until not that long ago massachusetts was one of the states that allowed prisoners to vote and then prisoners behind bars and in a state prison in massachusetts organized a Political Action committee and one of them was going to run for a some state office and that just galvanized the liberal deep blue state voters in massachusetts to take away the right prisoners to vote because theres a fundamental sense of unfairness in saying the people who have victimized their fellow citizens who have committed crimes who have gone through the due process. System who have been found by a judge and a jury and there are all the appeals go yes i will take will whoever im there are gone thats what im curious thats what im curious of all because i mean anybody that would put any really going to people who are in prisons right now never even faced edge yuri people end up taking plea deal so 1st of all thats not true 2nd of all its a response to joshuas question around im do i think that this is racism is based into our criminal Justice System 100 percent absolutely in 850 only one 3rd of states have found any disenfranchisement lost after the 13th amendment was passed and slavery was mostly ended after the 15th amendment was passed and formally enslaved black men were given the right to vote then there was a wave of black codes where are all of these new laws were created that criminalize newly freed black folks then we saw a wave a felony disenfranchisement was so we moved. From slavery to jim crow to found any disenfranchisement that is a new way of keeping black americans permanently banned from the ballot box the United States is the only democracy in the world where it is possible for you to lose your right to vote for ever tell you we can all agree that in the 850 s. Of the 18th sixtys there was racism baked into so much of american the american legal system but when massachusetts in the year 2000 votes by a 2 to one majority across the state to take away the right of just about a certain attributes you want about right the right like like massachusetts is an outlier to happen significantly at the most states rate this and present is an outlier so when you have to go through training it makes me worry that the foundationally your argument doesnt hold substance and i think weve actually come to a strong agreement which we recognize that there is a disparity in our criminal Justice System treats and incarcerate africanamericans and the people with the power to imp