Days of violence in ethiopia have shown its growing ethnic divide follows the killing of a popular singer and activist the Prime Minister says it was a plot to the stabilize the country how to bridge the divide next week you know this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the show im sam is a than it has suffered days of unrest since the killing of a prominent musician and activist more than 90 people were killed in protests following the death of the ethnic romo singer. The 34 year old was shot dead in at this album on monday night launch crowds gathered for his funeral in his hometown of m go on thursday chalo songs focus on the rights of their over people they became anthems in the wave of antigovernment protest between 201520181 friday Prime Minister abu ahmed held an emergency meeting over child is killing he says the assailants want to trigger civil unrest and the right of the theo peers democratic reforms. In our country for a very long time some have been planning and plotting a scheme to start a civil war to pit people against one another and to derail the Peace Process in democratic reforms weve started to stop our agendas using all means including weapons media and money as if it were a stage production around the country theyve created over the last 3 days a problem that has its own writers and performance and Catherine Sawyer is following developments from neighboring kenya she says ethiopias Prime Minister is also blaming what he calls external forces for instigating the unrest. In the last 2 years or so a lot of ethiopians who are in exile who have fled the country while allowed to come back home so the minister the Prime Minister there saying that some of this people in a state of engaging with the government having many meaningful dialogue on how to solve some of the problems that are flicked ing if you appearance this some of these people have decided to take up arms he says that some of these groups are using a slogan called we will start and finish in addis this is the capital city he says that basically this is this means that they are targeting the capital city addis ababa because of all the Huge Development projects going on in the just dont want to destabilize the capital addis but the country as a whole its also important to note that in the last few days of the Prime Minister as well as some of his government officials have been talking about external forces that have a hand in what has been going on he did not expand on what. He meant by external forces but he did mention that this protest has cut off come at a very crucial time when there are talks going on at the u. N. Security Council Talks about the construction of this huge dam project that is going on a project that has been contested by egypt and sudan the if youre going to start filling the dumps him for the presidency is that this protest really are developing those efforts and they come at a very critical time. Well lets take a look at how high charlie is killing fuel the grievances of the euro if you know heres Largest Ethnic Groups say theyve suffered a long history of oppression dating back a century in 2015 plans to expand the capital further into remote farm lands triggered 3 years of protests and violent repression this eventually forced the resignation of the Prime Minister it paved the way for the roma himself to take over that job but some now accuse him of neglecting the Community Just like leaders of the past. Lets introduce our panel of guests then we have joining us from rome that Fischer Bader Horn of africa director of Human Rights Watch in london our wall allo senior lecturer in law at kill university in the u. K. And in washington d. C. David shinn a former u. S. Ambassador to ethiopia good to have you all with us if i could start with our war is ethiopia on the verge of breakdown our war. Well i think situations are looking to really shape he and if the government doesnt really count vladika 1000000 im actually dont see that happening at this stage i think the country is certainly fairly because they complicate cuts if i could just give you some context in terms of whats happening now you know the governments. The big day that are very corny because a towering ego or help at this very government took power only to be a good important speaker was killed also decided on grass the most prominent politician thats ridiculous or more committed people from the order of congress such as you are mohammed but really got a box other individuals from that they arent and it wasnt your fault or the grace of silence now if you really want to to calm the situation you can all of us jews and the very day that this community was supposed to mourn for 30 very quick see get and also the figure in such days he was somebody that people expected to be here that its a call for send off thats really up to his profile within this community in the government didnt let slip government essentially rushed his body under too cute you he. Local village which most people saw a sign of disrespect from the Prime Minister thats what came to power over the back was the face of normal people but over the course of the last year really is it over there literally the promise on the t. V. Months or what people essentially because they lost orders to save his own colleagues. Hang on hang on our wall but before we code too deeply into the whole history of shall we say complaints of the aroma population let me ask the tisha is it any clearer at this point the really basic simple questions who killed the child though and why. I think that remains a very big question and i think it is one of the reasons right now why the government absolutely needs to lift its internet shutdown i think people have very valid questions i think i mean the shutdown is having a whole range of impact it means that families arent able to find out about whats happening to their loved ones in different parts of the country it means that independent media organizations arent really able to report on very important developments security developments except but it also means that basically as one of the individuals we interviewed in the last few days said you know the government is saying that they will investigate but we dont really know they havent really told us whats going on and i think this is a context in which it creates almost a past perfect environment for a lot of misinformation and a lot of room thats but people deserve to know or that will let you know i got if i can jump in as we are have let me play devils advocate here and give you the line from the open authorities they say some groups are using this Current Situation. And using and abusing the sort of political opening that was given and allowed them to to be welcomed back into the fold to rearm instead of engaging intellectually and therefore they have to take some various very serious emergency measures and then the country in a sort of emergency situation has to take emergency measures how do you respond to that. I would say 1st of all they have been taking emergency measures for over a year now which have actually added to a lot of grievances i mean we are talking about a country in which many parts of the overall me are region but not only that will mean a region are actually under a de facto state of emergency and weve been documented over the last year quite serious abuses in the context of counterinsurgency operations in those areas by Government Forces at the same time obviously these are very volatile areas there are also a failed attempt in many ways and i think it was quite a weak attempt in the 1st place to really engage previous opposition parties as well so i think there are real questions here around why they are taking these very heavy handed nature has now but also whether there should be a genuine. Attempt to make sure that all different voices and hear not only talking about people in positions of political positions people with who do have a voice in many ways but also ordinary people who have grievances who want this to be heard and who feel right now that theyre not being heard or ambassador david officials are blaming what they call external forces what do you make of suggestions the least part of whats going on is a foreign plot to destabilize ethiopia perhaps even to disrupt the dam project which is proved so warring for its neighbors but i suspect that what is happening in ethiopia today is driven primarily by internal developments have internal forces i dont rule out the bus ability of some foreign involvement youre stirring up trouble for the sake of stirring up trouble its possible. Its very hard to control and if for example its related to the discussions on the the grand ethiopian renaissance dam a little an aisle of problems between egypt. I think would be very hard for egypt to control what actually happens inside other than just creating trouble so my my guess is that this is more related to an internal situation why i wonder wall i mean as a tissue pointed out this theres been a bit of a history of grievances on the part of the people of a tree of arrests. Torture even extra judicial killings have been documented by human Rights Groups why has the killing of chalo in particular proved so explosive. I think this is a very important but can i just comment on the dips point which is the only good it might be there are no forces that are using the kind of columns within the country now and why is it you know difficult to rule out the possibility that countries like egypt might have been certain to instigate chaos. We havent seen any every that so in the can in a country where you have a sense of culture or heard a lot. Of them it is very difficult to take that seriously. And there are clearly under forces including the government who would have an interest to call the council that im working on not to return back to to the question. Yet historically or was received as konami. Culturally subordinated and the reason why we saw the kind of what we dont dish in that all that the i mean the power if you think the 15 and 28 its precisely because those are fractured. And i mean i dont have to be clear at all theyre not the only ethnic group in ethiopia that has grievances and claims of. Being oppressed absolutely absolutely but what makes it all was somewhat different is the fact that they are the majority in that country so the 2nd. Largest group in the country. Are people who actually had been closed since the one power and if youre going to be for a long period of fact i live in groups and it will be speaking smaller in size so the fact that you have a figure of its socket that phase we have a system that allows us particular groups. But it presentation and i told me that we can operate within the forces that are. To share more of the same to now if you are the majority and if the system says that in the only way to get to the present set of the same terms in order to get to wooden servers at the local level and if you dont have that of course thats the majority move or its if they wont be on it its going to be more ordered and precisely for that reason that we more hear the voices of the horrible compared with other smaller groups but you know what i mean yeah that came to power people told us that if you get these changes and i personally believe like so many other people know we now have an opportunity to think a serial change didnt it to be fair to the government well there are some very positive steps that have been taken in terms of why didnt the its initiative but all of us need to look into it kind of in a democratising where you have so many instructors if so many cleavages. I think that charlie is at rest. Of us coming out with the fruits of Certain Authority that you have let me bring if i can attention doesnt change take time in a very complicated political and ethnic landscape like ethiopia i mean it wasnt long ago the Prime Minister was being hailed for his reforms releasing people from prison announcing an end to sort of political detentions even want to nobel prize right. Yes absolutely but i think you know a lot of the concerns that we amongst others have been voicing as well is that the 1st 3 months there were some amazing reforms which were implemented and i think what we have seen is both the stalling of of some of the reforms that we have seen some steps back i mean one of the areas and one of the commitments the government had made was to reform some of the legislation which had been used again and again to basically criminalized peaceful dissent and what weve seen is the government coming out with a new tool with the hate speech law which we have raised a range of concerns with so i think we have both seen a slowing down of reforms but we have also seen step back and weve also seen step backs in practice its as i was just raising again concerns around counterinsurgency campaigns in your emea region but i think you know coming back to your question these abuses are not only in your home your region but i think you know coming back to this issue of why i have had was well i mean i think what brought abby to power was also a moment where there was a lot of hope i mean a lot of young or almost 1st and foremost obviously the protest movement was joined by many other groups over the years but initially it was a lot of Young Students a lot of the none of them schoolchildren who were going and putting themselves on the front line and and basically it was a moment of hope and happy came to power and i think i mean had tried to actually we used to interview a lot of young people who were arrested only because they had some of his music on their telephone and yet they were still willing to put that music on their phone because of what he was talking for the hope he was giving them so i think really highlighting how you know after a moment of hope to see that abuses are continuing that reforms which yes take time but are sometimes actually backsliding is is very very worrying for many people but of david you know you theo very well how large of the current anger do you see directed at the Prime Minister himself being on the roma. You know like to make one clarification on the aroma the the aroma are the Largest Ethnic Group and he oh good theyre not a majority however there are a plurality there are clearly less than 51 percent of the population. As far as this being directed at him and himself for d for internal political purposes some of it is directed at him in order for other opposition parties including or 0 opposition parties to make it look bad and eventually defeat him in the political process whenever elections are rescheduled they were to have taken place in august of this year and now there are a postponed indefinitely so there is some of it as aimed at him personally he has lost a great deal of the. Sort of cannot that he had when he 1st became Prime Minister was something of a surprise Prime Minister and a lot of that has dissipated for the reasons that the others on the panel of discussed and i think he has made mistakes particularly the arrest of of Opposition Leaders i just dont see what that accomplishes and i think do you do you see as how great you think the risk is that this can go into full blown ethnic conflict. I dont rule that out but you know if you in the last couple of decades has had so much ethnic conflict of one kind or another its its shifted in terms of where it has occurred in the country and who has been involved in it but they have managed to muddle through ringback every time and i think theres a good chance that he will not all d through again this is not the best outcome obviously but muddling through is probably better than a a revolution that just gets totally out of control so i do see the Current Situation is very worrisome but id certainly dont see it as hopeless but to show is there a risk of all the political progress thats being made now being rolled back i mean how are you are you about power we are very worried i mean i think we are worried because just looking at the response in the last few days we are both seeing the government resorts to very. Widely used trial dont pass in terms of notably the arrest of Opposition Leader shutting down of at least one media outlet and others have actually been raided as well i mean this is this is something we have had to document in ethiopia over and over again so i mean were both seeing a return to practices which are definitely not going to contribute in any space or or to creating a democratic space and to allowing people to have very basic rights to information except trust and media freedoms and at the same time i mean you know what weve seen in the last few days in terms of both protests under arrest and communal violence i mean we are still trying to understand i mean obviously we are also suffering the consequence of the internet shut down to really understand town by town and what happened and again i mean a lot of this happened in towns a lot of these arrests and protests and violence is a happening in towns people coming in from the countryside into towns to protest but also in terms of the violence that breaks out so we are also documenting cases of communal violence and especially targeting the private property in many towns i mean. It you know that the reports were receiving now is that it has come down but one of our concerns is that this is were now seeing cycles of these violence and each time the government initially commits to investigate this was the same with the october violence last year which affected many possible but then theres never really any follow through both in terms of the investigations no communication about how the investigations ended what happened but also what the government is doing anything to make sure this doesnt happen again thats only raising a single point thats a really important point and that segues nicely to my next question for our world i mean despite all the progress that the Prime Minister has made politically listening to what people like the taisha say it does sound like another half attention has been paid to healing some of the ethnic grievances