Transcripts For ALJAZ Sir Paul Collier 20240712

A sobriety test on racial brooks and said that he failed the test then you can see the video there is a struggle between racial brooks and these 2 Police Officers punches are thrown by mr brooks he then reportedly grabs one of the officers taser weapons and runs away with it and its alleged that he then turned on one of the officers who opened fire ive watched up video now were all seeing it ive heard at least 3 shots and racial brocks later died in hospital now the question here is what would the police have done it for a shot brooks was not an africanamerican what would they have done if it was any other situation in which they did not have to use deadly force now the chief of police of Atlanta Erica shields has offered her resignation the mayor of atlanta accepted protests are continuing theyre not abating and i think this latest incident in which you hear the mare of a major city in this country saying that was an excessive use of deadly force will just fuel what is a long burning fire the timing of this really couldnt be worse for the people arguing against Police Reform because that is the major call of protesters around the nation canadas Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has called for an investigation there after police video showing the Violent Arrest of an indigenous media the footage has provoked outrage in spark debate over Police Brutality and institutional racism. And antiracism and far right activists have clashed in Central London during rival demonstrations there were tense moments between police and protesters with some throwing bottles and fireworks at offices but there was also this remarkable scene as a black lives about an activist was photographed carrying a far right protester to safety the man had apparently been involved in clashes and was lying injured on the ground before others stepped in to protect him the riot police in france have fired tear gas at a largely peaceful protest against racism and Police Brutality the rally was led by supporters of adama troll rae a black man who died in Police Custody back in 2016 in circumstances that remain unclear. Hundreds of people in cities across lebanon have demonstrated for 3rd consecutive day demanding the government resign over the countrys worst economic crisis in decades protesters say politicians are failing to take urgent action as unemployment saws along with the cost of living lebanons Prime Minister is blaming the previous government for the economic turmoil. Sucked out but how a little unclear. Attempt has failed in all the secret schemes have field from deep in the crisis some of tried again to pump rumors and push people to the street they want to prevent the government from removing the rubble and to which corruption is hidden we will not be silent about holding us responsible for the policies that brought the country to where we are today european governments have signed a contract with a Pharmaceutical Company to supply the region with the potential covert 1000. 00 vaccine the 400000000. 00 doses would be manufactured and distributed on the nonprofit basis the 1st doses could be ready by september but may not reach the e. U. Until the end of the year. And a lockdown has been reimposed in parts of chinas capital after 45 people at a wholesale market tested positive for the corona virus whats being called a wartime emergency in beijing has 4 schools to delay reopening following 2 months of no infections. And chiles Health Minister has been replaced a day after the country reported its worst spike in private 19 cases. Had been under mounting pressure to resign for his handling of the outbreak chile is one of latin americas west affected countries well those are the headlines next up its head to head stay with us. Some fleeing poverty and persecution others simply hoping for a better future. Many risk their lives to reach the developed world but does diversity make the west which we are and always will be a nation of immigrants doesnt threaten to break it apart. My guest tonight believes more immigration means less social cohesion and wants tighter controls to paul 1st appeal later but is restricting immigration necessary or is it xenophobia. In disguise. And ive come here to the oxford union to go head to head with professor paul collier the renowned economist u. N. Advisor and best selling author ill be challenging him on whether immigration is a danger to western identity and whether closing the door helps or hurts poor countries. Also be joined by t. V. Banjoko a british nigerian doctor and the managing director of the for. d David Goodhart journalist author and an advocate of much tighter controls on immigration and philip economist adviser and a supporter of open borders. Ladies and gentlemen professor paul collier. An economist with university his latest book is cities how migration is changing. Paul collier were both you and i were both the products of migration youre the grandson i believe of a german migrant im the son of indian immigrants to the u. K. In your book exodus you say that while immigration into developed countries from developing countries has had economic benefits in many ways its been very good you also say that more and more immigration into the west poses a danger to social cohesion risks diluting our culture our National Identity and may undermine trust corporation solidarity between members of the public those a pretty big claim some would say pretty controversial claims you know the debate on migration is polarized into 2 strident positions heartless and headless. Do you sound to be volunteering to be the head of this im certainly not going to volunteer to be the heartless so we can find out tonight yeah of course migrations could its like but its like asking is is eating food good. If you dont eat food youre dead or you can eat too much just to take your analogy you dont stop eating food today on the basis that one day you might eat too much and nor do you stop migration today on the basis that one day you could have too much im not advocating stopping migration because youre tighter control more and more restrictions the reason for that is is that immigration is driven by 2 things income gaps and the size of the spirit as the asker builds up migration tends to accelerate so at some point. As it accelerates it would become too much. Sorry but we do the same thing with Climate Change in case you havent notice its interesting you mention Climate Change because some of the reviews of your book pointed out that it wasnt really ideal to compare migrants to c o 2 emissions in the sense well in the sense that if you start from the premise that c o 2 emissions are bad and we should control them its almost implicit youre saying youre a man in the middle you know one of 2 extremes 1st of all your general tone is very skeptical and quite negative 1st of all c o 2 emissions are not bad until climate until they become an in the range of a problem c o 2 emissions weve had over the last 2000 years havent been that the migration weve had to date hasnt been bad and it hasnt been bad but in the book you suggest it has been bad for social cohesion in some parts and that it will only get worse if you look at the relationship. Between diversity. Other Economic Performance well being. Then its. A hunch shape if you get too much diversity then what what he wrote is corporation 1st and that shows up in much lower levels of trust in fact is reams of evidence here in the u. K. For example out in europe which suggests that actually the reason societies are divided or lack of trust or lack cohesion is more to do with deprivation and poverty and inequality and not to do with greater immigration not to do with Ethnic Diversity let me just read you one quote european study said in 2008 found no evidence at all for what we consider to be this claim between diversity greater diversity and lower trust they say that the research you cited in your book which is American Research is totally spurious when it comes to europe so there is a controversy or suggesting there is not 1st of all there is 1st of all youre. Focusing on what is the case now in europe as opposed to what should be focused on. What would happen if there was a big increase in diversity thats just but thats then where in the realms of my speculation versus your speculation you talk about heartless and headless and you being this kind of middle of the road pragmatist some of the language you use many would say is not helpful its a little bit divisive might play into the hands of people you and i both dont like on the far right you refer to do you refer in the book almost in every other page to indigenous britons or indigenous members of the population which is you know has certain resonance to some people on the far right how do you define an indigenous brits and what is an indigenous person. Weve got to have some sort of concept for them on immigrant populations what i mean remarkable use i did was say indigenous to that what does it mean can you define for those insurgents if weve got a concept of immigrant weve got to have a concept of nonimmigrant have a code so what is the concept of anonymous and. Whats the concept of an immigrant. My indigenous briton born here yes let me britain here because there are people who are born here indigenous were. So heres my question in your book you say that in the 2011 census it was revealed that the indigenous british had become a minority in their own capital the census showed that 63 percent of the population of london was born in britain the only way you can get a minority status is if youre White British then youre a minority in london but. Its a phrase youve used in many interviews many articles in the daily mail a new statesman you think you can look to the 2nd generation this is not ask a simple question is that wrong is wrong isnt it in your book you say that the indigenous british are a minority in their own capital theyre not 63 percent if you want to score a point then im not scoring a point im asking a professor of economics did he get a quite glaring error in his book no i didnt beat it and didnt repeat it in the news no i didnt repeat it in the mail i didnt know where to glaring it. Perfectly meaningful statement but the use of the legal meaning to the use of the word indigenous right. There or there are various definitions you can have i asked you for your minutes here and you said it never gave you one so that doesnt apply to this one no he certainly doesnt certainly doesnt apply to them so what does that apply to in this context it applies to the the 2nd generation the 2nd generation are not indigenous now according to the sentence then absolutely so am i am i not indigenous the of course you are right. But you know just sort of oh you look at youre going to me no seriously look its a serious question all right so if. Theres a process of absorption of immigrants into the society so that some people wouldnt really be culturally integrated after several generations some people will be culturally integrated within a decade and ok so what the census shows is an approximation so where would we where would i and where would my daughter 2nd and 3rd generation where would we fit in by the sound of things where you fit absolutely as. Those british dont youre indeed when you consider yourself as british i do consider myself a british but i read a book which told me that you know that you know according to the definition. Im not you can you move the definition of me twice the 2nd its just one last thing before i go to a planet to be waiting very patiently to come in in your book you talk about migrants from developing countries tending to bring their own quote dysfunctional cultures with them to developed countries and in support of this you write quote unsurprisingly nigerian immigrants to other societies tend to be untrusting and opportunistic how is that not a sweeping statement some might say racist like the prices seem working in nigeria for many many years right now argyria is one of the lowest trust societies in the world and thats a different point though isnt it its one thing to say society is a low to society another thing to say that nigerian immigrants to other societies are your group of people tend to be untrusting and opportunistic thats pretty offensive if you nigerian surely im sorry if it causes offense the what im trying to suggest is that people tend. To bring their culture with them weve made our make a very important distinction between culture and race anybody from any race can rock any culture ok lets go to our panel dr t. T. Lola banjoko youre a british nigerian doctor advisor to the e. U. And the u. N. On migration issues you also the founder of Africa Recruit what do you make of that can i 1st say that i dont take offense to what you said because i know im not one of those who are defining and i think youve taken the narrow end and youve used that sterile stereotype which is wrong to define a whole community if you say youve lived in nigeria you would know that there is a sense of trust of communities where people get together around be going to its across the african continent where we dont even have agreements and we bring money we share money with each other so whats the level is that not trust. To me that is trust here we define it as crowd funding that actually has been going on in africa for centuries so there is a very high level of trust its the level of trust of government which youre confusing with the level of trust of society now in terms of bringing habits to the country which i call my country here. Actually there are some you said in your books a number of good things that weve brought one a caring attitude. Which is why there is no surprise that many migrants work in the care sector respect for elders i respect you see i said i dont take offense i respect you do you think thats a valuable thing that we should all be sharing and learning i mean i read your book and i thought i defined it as a very good pub you know we were in a pub youll have a pub quiz its a storybook theres no evidence you contradicted yourself so many times ive even said lets come back and theyre going to come back on the trust point and evidence point. First of all my own doctors in nigeria moments so. I am able to distinguish between one and the others there are. Local Community Level support systems which are high trust. But to say its hard to africas high trust know that the really High Trust Society in the world is japan ok lets go lets go to another member of our panel david good heart hes here hes the author of the book the british dream and you and your book david unlike paul you dont talk so much about indigenous you used the phrase if i remember correctly when i read it White British you get how people sometimes are quite suspicious when they hear those labels you know but i do think its one of the best things about the debate in the last few years is that we have been able to distinguish issues of race and Racial Justice from its use of the economic and yes in the Cultural Impact of very large scale immigration you do have very serious issues of integration and segregation almost half the ethnic minority population now live in wards where less than half of the population are White British that seems to me a kind of concentration and a sort of separating out that its very unhealthy for for a good Civic Society where people do feel a mutual god and they want to share with others. To get into a statistical argument because of the all the stuff is always can just contested by people on all sides is about the racial composition of the population or is it about as paul asked me you know feeling british feeling english feeling european because again they seem to be mixed messages i think i think these things become sort of symbolic in a way no i dont think it is about white. But i think it is the scale and speed of change let me bring in Phillip Mcgraw on who is also an economist all through the book immigrants your country needs to. The original question asked to pull if you see what philips could be coming from in the perspective of. Paul made the comment at the start that we talked about you know theyre all social and cultural cost immigration not everything is good not things but it depends how much given his belief that immigration is going to rapidly increase in coming years the whole Multiplier Effect asper effect is that a good enough reason therefore in your view even to support amongst the actually you know we do need to do something about it before it gets out of control and damaging and put some controls and 1st of all there is no evidence diversity actually reduces trust or social cohesion the evidence from. United states where they say they have a history of slavery and therefore polarized relations between whites and blacks studies in europe dont find that at all 2nd of all is accelerator model is not a recognized model of migration in fact is contradicted by the evidence the idea that it without controls that everyone moves and countries become depopulated is contradicted by the evidence is countries in africa where there is next to nigeria nigeria 6 times richer and share is not depopulated basically there are political controls between them is contradicted within europe where sweden is 6 times richer than romania romania is not depopulated its country within United States where mainland United States is 3 times richer than puerto rico and puerto rico is not populated so this is just spurious fear mongering this is not evidence based at all and you are using your position as an economist and claiming that. Evidence exists when actually it doesnt ok lets let. That sort of argument. Really doesnt cut the mustard the best Single Authority is the docky. Paper a couple of years ago called the aspers finds that the single most powerful driver of immigration migration is the size of the us but can you find any example of your accelerator i cant actually there are i do so in the book you dont focus on the fact that im going to die you dont actually i dont you just assert you draw like if you claim expertise when you dont have it youre migration actually very dependent dont actually quote studies backing up your arguments im sorry if you want if you want things them pulls of a celebration of the example given the book is tokyo cyprus. Where there are more Turkish Cypriots living in britain now than there are in turkey cyprus will come later i hope to what are the effects on the other countries of origin thank you for doing the segue into the next discussion thats exactly what i want to ask you about you say that it might not just harm developed countries in the future in terms of cultural solidarity but that it actually could pose a real danger to the Development Prospects of the countries quote left behind you talk about kind of the harm and damage that could be done what harm and damage you for and to specifically emigrants or migrants. They tend to be the the young the enterprising the skilled the educated. And people like that are if you like with fairy godmothers in any society theyre useful to others. And so country like say haiti where about 85 percent of the young educated leave thats debilitating many would say haiti is an aberration given its history of natural disasters and being next door to the United States but i take your point if we were to if we were to all agree with your thesis on this particular point about the poorest countries why should i not try and leave haiti and try and get a better job rather than stay in a country ruled by dictators dominated by corruption blighted by natural disasters purely by the bad luck of my birth people turn have the right to live anywhere in the World Without the right to leave their country and its a human right of course you would admit as you do in the book just for context i think its 400000000000. 00 in remittances back from skilled migrants to those poor countries those people because theyre productive skilled energetic if theyd stayed in their country they would also have produced no more class theres no evidence for that thats one of the last what they were what the critics say about your book theres no evidence that if you keep a skilled bunch of people in a hellhole that hellhole will become heaven look theres very evidence for that no. That is abusive language that you describe as hell hole. Societies which absolutely have to catch up with the rest of the way your employer leaving stock nover theres no evidence for the most. Challenge for the 21st century is that the poorest societies catch up with the rest really just a philosophical level i just wonder your view would it be a good thing a morally commendable thing for those poorer countries to put in immigration controls to stop those skilled energetic young people from leaving in the 1st place no be like north korea or cuba and no problem you know obviously not obviously. Because there is no moral right to restrict exit that is turning a country into a prison how is it morally different to say you cant stop people from leaving so what well do is well do that for you by stopping them from coming what i am advocating is people should. Get skills get education go back get something to come here to work and settle you do you want less i dont want less i want to. Prevent an acceleration certainly lets go back to our panel this movement of peoples especially from the developing world to develop world can be if the brain drain exceeds the brain very damaging whats your response to that is not just the developing countries even this country is losing skills to australia to canada so its its all about people searching for petunias is and people will continue to search for petunias a lot of people actually are going back to the continent of africa and im sure you know that this is not about that so there is a lot of speculation going on what the what we can do is restrict the flow of money from the very rich who take money from these countries and bring it to the west im in battle with you to try and. Break the banking secrecy which permits david youve been a journalist for many years been around the political scene surely you and i both know that when governments are making these decisions about restricting immigration and keeping foreigners out its not very much to do with caring about the developing countries and their futures. It is you know i mean is not only reacting to domestic Public Opinion although actually i think lets not you know take people who take the brightest in the best from all those countries and the the area where this is most scandalous that we havent spoken about is the area of health care i think to Something Like one 3rd of all the nurses working in london have come relatively recently from other countries many of them very poor countries that cannot afford to lose. Lose their train Health Care Workers are going whats your response to david and paul theres a contradiction at the heart again of paul called his book i mean in the beginning he is explains his theory of underdevelopment which is that poor countries are poor due to what he calls dysfunctional social models now if thats true why would preventing skilled people change anything its a dysfunctional social model that makes them pour so keeping the skilled people there theyre still going to be poor i mean and look at north korea it prevents emigration has that somehow made it rich your argument simply dont stand up theyre absolutely incoherent and ridiculous as this. Point last point at the end you dont say having said how terrible it is that theyre skilled emigration from poor countries you then say that actually rich countries should select migrants on the basis of skills and employability you left sheffield to go work in washington at the world bank for your self improvement did it since youre so brilliant sheffield presumably lost out as a result should you have been prevented from moving i dont think so should you have stated your field full of your being. I chose my self interest there was a tension as there is with a lot of migrants between do i look after myself or do i care about the people left behind some of them are doing both by sending about income to sell those countries. That the average migrant from a poor country sends back a 1000. 00 a year. Thats not a great sign if theyre bright energetic and skilled and they stayed in their country theyd probably generate more than a 1000 total assumption probably in the evidence is not there is no evidence and others are standing by theres always been as it really is no no no you have accounts in formal remittances can i just corrected a person that is a lot of informal images which you have no idea about. Take a break were going to come back in part 2 to talk about one other area of the migration debate because a lot of heat asylum and immigration and proposals for what to do with refugees will also be hearing from our audience here in the oxford union join us for part 2 of head to head off to the break. Short films. And inspiration. Stories of 3 young women challenging the world around them. Just 0 selects. As countries begin easing coronavirus restrictions scientists warn of a 2nd wave of infections in the last few days. In front of the neighborhood and many fear the economy is be prioritised about for human life until fall of people getting the focus and they are here to what spike and call the 19 kids we bring you the latest developments from across the globe coronavirus pandemic special coverage on aljazeera they collaborate with bollywood in an unlikely place. A little cool you know im not inventing the. I think im going in there with my mother the and she was very impressed it was inconsistent theres a lot of love but affection and respect over the world people alone to wait for mom by a nation has taken indian cinema to its heart out to see who won reveals the color and passion of moroccos hollywood dream. Route. Hello again im just on the attack and with the headlines here on aljazeera the Police Killing of another black man in the u. S. Has triggered new demonstrations anger and condemnation police in atlanta say racial brooks failed the breath test and resisted arrest they tried to use a taser on him that a fight broke out before he was shot and he got a gun has more from miami. Well we know that the police were called on friday night to a Fast Food Restaurant after reports a customer was asleep in his car causing other customers to drive around it now when those 2 Police Officers arrived on the scene they carried out a sobriety test on racial brooks and said that he failed that test then you can see the video there is a struggle between racial brooks and these 2 Police Officers punches are thrown by mr brooks he then reportedly grabs one of the officers taser weapons and runs away with it and its alleged that he then turned on one of the officers who opened for. Canadas Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has called for an investigation there after police video emerged showing the Violent Arrest of an indigenous leader but it has provoked outrage and sparked debate over institutional racism well anti racism and far right activists have clashed in Central London during rival demonstrations there were tense moments between police and protesters but some throwing bottles and fireworks at officers and riot police in france have fired tear gas at a largely peaceful protest against racism and Police Brutality the rally was led by supporters of saddam a troll or a black man who died in Police Custody and 2016 and circumstances that remain unclear. Hundreds of people in cities across lebanon have demonstrated for a 3rd consecutive day demanding the government resign over the countrys worst economic crisis in decades protesters say politicians are failing to take action as unemployment saw. A lockdown has been reimposed in parts of chinas capital after 45 people as a wholesale market tested positive for corona virus whats being called a wartime emergency and beijing has forced schools to delay reopening following 2 months of no infections and chiles Health Minister has been replaced a day after the country reported its worst spike in curve in 1000 cases. Had been under mounting pressure to resign for his handling of the outbreak well those are the top stories now its back to head to head. Welcome back to head to head on aljazeera we are talking about immigration with professor paul collier of Oxford University in part one we talked about immigration from south to north we talked about integration we talked about the effect on the socalled left behind countries i just want to ask you this one group of migrants even the most hardline critics and opponents of immigration tend to put to one side and treat more generously or refugees and Asylum Seekers most people think we have a moral and a legal obligation to open our borders to people fleeing conflict and persecution and you say the same in your book exodus but then you are this rather somewhat odd you say when peace is restored you say people should be quote required to return just to clarify would you forcibly repub refugees to their countries of origin against their will maybe no matter how long theyve been settled in a new country of course not. Couper thing we should be focused on with conflict countries the conflicts dont have a conflict. And the post conflict countries are the most vulnerable societies in the world very often they revert to conflict and so again a vital task is to try and make their conflict recovery. As successful as possible i work with a lot of post conflict societies and governments and the standard problem that governments face post conflict is that all the skilled people are left and so i do think its responsible to have policies which encourage people to go back when you should required to return so that that would be an overstayer right that little euro state yeah ok its my of the sacred event is its really to try and focus on the issue that its of course its very important to protect the skilled and educated by taking them out of the society whilst the conflict is happening but its just to clarify while the conflicts happening if its going on for years as many conflicts do should they have the right to settle here and work here that the presumption should be. That people should be. Provided with a safe refuge with that with some sort of presumption of return and of course most refugees. Dont come to rich societies. They have a refugee camps and so theyre the real challenge agree more important you say that you say that conflicts dont last that long according to the u. N. H. C. R. The average refugee now spend 17 years as a refugee rather than 9 years a decade previously some of these conflicts in places like iraq afghanistan the democratic republic of congo even in pakistan violence doesnt seem to be abating at all i mean how do you say to people nows a time safe when you decide its safe we must encourage all to go back quite often. There are there are a peace settlements which to mark. An end to conflict a time where without a peace settlement people can stay but if theres a clear settlement only sure if there are so iraqis today if you take a real world example iraqis living in the west would you dont want them to be required to return to encourage to return of course and. Of course miles its still in conflict very obviously while theyre here with their families they should integrate they should where possible retain their links. With iraq so that when the conflict is over which it will be. Then they can go back and help rebuild their country if youve been in a country 10 years 12 years 15 years 20 years youve had kids theyve gone to school theyve never seen that country that you moved from they dont speak the language absolutely required to return oh no of course not but theres a desperate situation where a small group of people trying to restore a country desperately short of skilled people who know the society and the key resource to draw on is the skilled the aspirant even in afghanistan one of my students last year. Gone by is trying to rebuild the society is brave you have billy he was a hero because he volunteered to go and do that he didnt do that as a British Government pressuring no get out but we have a duty of rescue in a context in which theres a larger duty to try and help rebuild these societies from being smashed up conflict is not agreement in the same would say divorce those 2 debates the refugee debates too important to be tacked on to the Development Debate the problem is poor refugee debate is not what happens here its what happens in the refugee camp but its interesting you raise that issue because of course a lot of people here talk about the issues of refugee in asylum and you raise the issue in your book actually the west as a whole doesnt take enough refugees to begin with i think britain takes less than one percent of the World Refugee population and developing countries take Something Like 86 percent of the worlds refugees up from 70 percent a decade ago the refugees overwhelmingly are going to continue to be in countries that border areas of the conflict so the fate of refugees. Does not really depend on whether a few 1000 more harm to the rich society is what matters is what happens to the millions agree and so agree it doesnt change our fundamental responsibility is to make the those refugee camps far better place we call it economically opposite mutually exclusive we could its a referral maybe river Valley Police peripheral because last year the British Government took 90 syrians not 90090. 00 syrians and it is a shame i fully understand how many hundreds of thousands or millions of syrians actually need refuge and yes id like us to give more money to refugee camps and also take in more refugees would you find ok theres a real balance a priority is the camps agreed lets go to our lets go to our panel. Paul talks about refugees should be keeping links with the countries they fled from in order to be ready to go back and help rebuild im surprised that i mean i know that they already do that and many of them i know of a lot of afghans Healthcare Professionals working in this country who go home regularly a medical Mission Trips to south sudan to somalia so in terms of not counted your previous argument where you were saying these people shouldnt these middle class people you describe actually doing more they tell us they take materials they sacrifice a lot sacrificial given theres a difference between just throwing money out and sacrificing your life to do this like you did that knowledge that in the book let me let me bring in david david youll remember in this country we talked about the u. K. Context a lot of the stuff about immigration you talk about how the debate has changed whats your position today on the on the refugee asylum part of this debate i think most people in this country still believe in the idea of providing asylum i mean one of the problems here is though that the definition of. Qualifies for asylum has expanded and expanded and expanded so there are now on some calculations perhaps 1000000000 people out there in the world who could technically qualified to come here as an Asylum Seeker which i think is a problem. But then if you are thinking about places that are experiencing civil war or natural disasters of one kind or another we should pay for a decent temporary. Villages cities for people like that and they can then keep an eye on what is happening in their country theyll be closer to whats going on and they will know when it is safe to return i take your point if they do reach it and many do reach it through genuine persecution and are ended up settling here for several years do you believe they should have the right to settle here have children if they are genuine Asylum Seekers who are whose lives are in danger in some way in the country they come dancing the danger is gone with several years down the line but theyve been here theyre working theyve got no i dont think it is actually to leave. The presumption should be they should go back. Briefly philip to run. Again for his argument i mean he he says only it you agree only a tiny proportion of refugees go to the west so its only a tiny proportion why is it so essential for their countrys future at that time proportion to go back. To leap. Who are the refugees who get to the west there the more educated. More able the people best able to get out. The people with the biggest incentive to get out of the most educated right now thats perfectly. Rational selfinterest of the people who are losing our social category only highly skilled its its the poor its the middle class its not even the rich its all sorts of people just this place im sorry thats just not true for the people who have education a much more like the. To come as far as the west for the people with their ok lets leave it there were going to bring in our audience to ask some questions trying to be a point short as possible to go here to the front row later here in the front row and then well go to the back isnt it arguable that. In those countries where we have either started the conflict or we have prolonged the conflict that we have a greater moral responsibility to take in more refugees rather than giving the burden to the neighbors i was there just want to say that under the 151 United Nations Refugee Convention we have a legal obligation to take in genuine refugees and the convention does not put a time limit on how long these refugees can stay ok. Yes web where we where we cause conflicts weve obviously got more moral responsibility than where we didnt cause them but. Weve still got a moral responsibility even where we didnt cause them because basically we should be navigating by need here but the but the but to just to reiterate. Migration to the west is a peripheral aspect of what to do when theres a conflict the really important thing is to help to rebuild the society after conflict whilst treating the vast number of refugees well during the conflict while at the legal point she made the actually what you propose is illegal under International Law to set a time limit on how long a fetus can stay im an economist not a lawyer and i tend to think that. The lawyers look at things in a rather blinkered way that what we should and what my home is. What economists look at is try to look at. Whats best for society ok lets go to the lady in the row and then the gentleman next to a migrant from malawi in africa theres been a lot of mention quite a lot about the damage that migrants from my part of the world do t. K. Culture i want to know exactly what do you mean by that when you talk about trust to me the biggest abuses us has to trust on a massive scale lately has been linked to the Great Recession which had nothing to do with people from my part of the world and a lot of us become citizens as well our story becomes part of britain story you know isnt this more about living with difference and youre an easier is that. You know it was for if you got a sense that im saying immigrants from malawi or anywhere else so called problems in britain or anywhere else im not right. You are. Youre misinterpreting. Pretty fundamentally what im saying. So if we have more. Was go back to the beginning discussion of a year or so now its been good till now its been good but in the future its going to be bad. Thats what im struggling ive been struggling with through well maybe youre not really struggling what im saying. What i say. Is that there is a good reason to think that migration left to itself with controls would accelerate the red herring whos leaving whos calling for migration without control by half a 1000000 a year we were going to have a population of 18000000 by 2050 i mean nobody has any. Particular individual but it is about this scale its about this scale of change now this is mainly you know highly educated mobile liberal that they are comfortable youre comfortable with change most people in most societies are not theyve not taken account of those perfectly normal human feelings and paula she also says in his book that microstrip be selected on the basis of cultural distance so actually he doesnt want people from malawi he wants more people who he considers similar to himself ok. So audience section. Lets bring in some more gentlemen here next yes yes i wanted to say that there was this debate between. Diversity and trust but you know i think trust is maybe overrated i mean i come from ireland we had 2 indigenous populations katha the controller student the been there for hundreds of years they didnt trust each other and they fought against each other and kill each other and in fact it might have been good if we had people from china from somewhere maybe to actually go there and i also think that we dont need just trust we need the rule of law so you have the rule of law and i might not trust you you might not trust me youre a stranger im not from your village youre from another village youre from another religion but we exist within the rule of law tradition and we get along ok. Clearly polarized. Societies. Are the Worst Nightmare and so as you which really point out a bit of diversity the breaks polarized nation might be it might be an improvement and probably would have been on. The point about. Law as a substitute for trust do we want a society that has Mutual Respect or do we want a society that moves beyond Mutual Respect to mutual regard. And the Mutual Respect is what you would see through the law you have to respect each other like it or not as it were but. A good society actually moves beyond respect to mutual regard because its that move that actually builds willingness to be generous to other people gentlemen here in the 2nd which is a question for the professor do you think that a sensible policy for migration youre talking about temporary migrants might be to allow in only the work themselves to keep their families outside of the country is to not allow them to vote to only allow them to go back home maybe 3 weeks every 2 years to keep them in inferior conditions to give them worse Health Facilities and the reason i ask this is because it seems to work really well in qatar. Saudi arabia and countries out there your cousin is not here to speak about arab regimes he did speak about his book so i asked him could be very good i think if you will came it and asked him a series of questions about how he thinks about how abysmally gulf kingdom street there might be a very odd one hour that me and spent talking about that to be fair to the questioner. I do discuss the gulf migration policies in the book and what i say about them and what i say about them is that. For somebody like philip theyre perfect they get all loads of economic gains so they tick all the economic boxes and. They are absolutely disgusting and not something that a western society could dance like i mean i dont. Think its a point why do we let more of them into the u. K. Thats why id like to see would you like to see that as well because a lot of people would like to come and work here im sure but you and david be the 1st people. No this is not ok lets go back to the audience with some of course went back to theater lets take lets take the coolest text and well be waiting very patiently here in the jacket 2nd row mikes come in here stand by. My name is i have a coca leaf. From the county because of a problem caused by the british. On my arrival here i was detained for several months before the legal battle i won my case i was given the official status. So my question to you according to your book is how do you plan to get refugees whove been here for more than 70 years to return and rebuild their countries with your good. Will that involve. Deportation which will cause retirement ties and effects to these families no of course not right now. Let me be clear about not im not advocating for st patrick haitian i dont know which country youre from the moons out on camera. But the we could go around the circle again but no one im not sure that your britain is now your home and if so youre right. But theres clearly a need in the cameroon too for for some people to help. Build that society so that it catches up with britain so that future generations in the cameroon dont face this huge income gap and lack the civil rights. Hold on. Were running out of time gentlemen then in the 3rd row yes it strikes me that a lot of this discussion has been about self interest verses interest for the community i myself am from malaysia but ive been raised in the us i have an american accent how would you engender this sense of Community Values what we need to do for that so that at least the people that arent forced migrants are interested in going back many migrants reconcile that tension by actually doing a lot for their original societies. And their but that is a process that to be basically to be to be celebrated and encourage but i think its very important that. We shouldnt just look at. Interest theres a sort of libertarian cult which is quite common in in economics which basically reduces to people should be free to pursue their self interest and i think the real limits to pull one last question for me before we finish theres a lot of ignorance obviously on the subject a lot of fear mongering from certain sections of the political spectrum opinion polls suggest that a lot of british people a lot of french people or americans or the canadians. Overestimate for example how many migrants are living in their societies as a lot of fear fear of change to quote david. What do you say to people who say that when we obsess about immigration in this way when we have this perspective. And when you write about the we all worry about the future accelerating rate and the harm that may come youll simply playing into that hysteria youre playing into that ignorance rather than kind of challenging it and controlling it 1st of all i really whatever i can be accused of. Creating europes histeria about migration are not guilty right nobodys nobodys going to you that. What are you what is it my wider point which i was trying to make about some. Yes theory around this debate what weve got is a polarized and strident debate in which the extremes shout a lot and the center stays silent. Because center politicians just. Want the subject to go away and that is a dereliction of duty on the part of the politicians of the center we need to seize the debate to say its not. Migration is terrible migration is wonderful migration is a relatively minor process. For the rich countries that needs to be managed bearing taking into account the rather more important interest of the poor societies from which these people are coming and of course you would have if you would knowledge i think the statistic out there that i came across that 97 percent of the worlds population actually live in the country where they were born and so we lose that were talking i think i read percent in the book right around that were talking about a time that a tiny element the reality for the future is not that we all turn into a global soup the reality for the future is people will live predominantly 97 percent in their own countries actually the big migration flows if we look at century since the big migration flows will have gone down not up. One thing in which phillips wrong which i was a nice point on which to end is that. Is going down the range and i feel as always that i like ration is not an integral part of globalization globalization of trade of capital flows is actually almost turner to move to moving people we shouldnt be moving people to jobs we should build a world in which jobs move to people who will have to leave it there thank you very much. For. The oxford union thank you very much for our audience here in the uk to our wonderful panel of experts thank you very much for watching at home this debate is not going away good night. For the. International trade swill you have supported having free trade would not change your money or the japanese or chinese dogs or germany controversial immigration policies that anyone who has a well founded fear of persecution should be able to calm them as well from unless theyre from syria hes closer to the Syrian Refugees like the buffalo maybe has signed goes head to head with senior trump advisor Stephen Moore this year the trump deficit crossed a trillion dollars you will be urging everyone not to reelect total shock well no im not cut out and go on outages era. Hello theres a rather tricky front line down this east coast of the us has been there for a couple of days it wont go away it has produced some flooding already and some pretty vicious sun storms from maine southwards its now focusing on the carolinas and maybe florida and will produce yet more potential for flooding thunderstorms that are a little bit further inland in the appalachians in terms of recovering in toronto and chicagos whole northeast of cool down a little bit further west weve seen rain come into the california coast is going to land on the high ground thunderstorms are potentially there the rain and strengthens in washington Northern California south of that and its hot dry fire risk territory temperatures still in the low fortys in arizona dropping south and its a particularly wet time of the year for all of the caribbean not everywhere will get big thunderstorms for quite a few will i think from hispania this pandora back through a keeper in jamaica but the focus is probably costa rica and nicorette your home jirus and this eastern side of mexico much of mexicos driver to the yucatan still is showing a hint it wanted to be very wet no hint of Tropical Development in the next couple of days repeated today but there are still some big storms. In. June 1976 days there rejoin the map of the middle east is miraculous victory of the israeli army in that war was the greatest tragedy in the history of islam 50 years later aljazeera expose the events leading to the war and its consequences which is still felt today we tried everything we went to the United Nations and tried mediation contacts with Different Countries and it was clear that all this was the new of the rule in june. Throughout history humankind has come together to prevail in our darkest moments this is a moment for pretty much the opposite. Saving humankind i really really not getting near every generation has its moment where individual sacrifice makes way for the good of those who will come after. This war is ours. Protests in the u. S. City of atlanta after a black man is shot dead by police at a fast food drive through. That im a star they attain this is al jazeera live from also coming up china reports its highest daily number of new coronavirus cases in 2 months as concerns around a major food market in beijing. Antiracism protests and france while a government