stories in developments that are changing the way we live in. china the drag on the global economy 2020 counting the cost on al-jazeera. saddam's transitional government and rebels have agreed to hand over those one to atrocities in the darfur conflict so does this mean formally the end of the she will be sent to the international criminal court in the hague based is inside story . hello there and welcome to the program i'm the stasi attain now one of the international criminal courts most wanted to people may soon face trial form a sudanese president omar al bashir is accused of atrocities in the western darfur region in 2003 bashir has sentenced soldiers and militias to suppress mostly known arab rebels the u.n. believes fighting famine and disease has killed at least 300000 people there but she denies the allegations and has escaped previous attempts to send him to the hague tribunal but he is now no longer in power and sudan's transitional government and rebels in darfur have now agreed to hand over all suspects wanted by the i.c.c. . from the happy that i that it is feeling joy that innocent justice is served by justice we cannot bury our heads in the sand against the crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against innocent people and or for him elsewhere justice will not be served unless those with the rest warrants appear before the i.c.c. we also agreed on a special tribunal for those crimes committed in door for it will be a special court entrusted with investigations and trials in these cases including the international criminal cases now i'm all bashir was the 1st sitting head of state to be charged by the i.c.c. back in 2009 the court says that people in darfur were murdered tortured and raped all under his instruction and says the charges amount to war crimes genocide and crimes against humanity but he denies the allegations and says the court has no legitimacy but he has government protected him for more than a decade but that changed when he was removed as president last year and then jailed for corruption 4 of his closest aides ministers and military commanders are also accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity. well let's bring in our guests now here with me in the studio and doha is a lead medea but he's president of the sudan policy forum who focuses on governance and development in sudan's capital khartoum so my own mubarak who is the spokeswoman for the sudanese professionals association and also in khartoum is kenneth roth he is the executive director of human rights watch thank you for joining us and welcome to the program ken i really want to start with you because i believe that you just walked out of a meeting with the head of sudan's transitional government. do you think that this is a real commitment on the part of sudan's government to actually send him al bashir to be tried by the i.c.c. . well i should say i just within the last few hours met both with prime minister hun duck and with general bill hahn who as you note is the chairman of the transitional sovereign council the 11 member combined military civilian body that serves as in essence a collective presidency of sudan during this transitional period now i think it's important to kind of look at the language yesterday one of the civilian members of the sovereign council said that by cher and the other 4 who have been charged by the international criminal court would appear before the international criminal court leaving open whether that means surrender to the hague or whether some arrangement might be made to appear before the court in sudan and i think we don't really know the answer to that yet so i'm trying to avoid extradition when. well in others i think is important understand that the international criminal court is a so-called complementary body if you look at the rome statute its founding document it prioritizes domestic justice so long as domestic justice is vigorous and fair so you know saddam would be completely complying with the international criminal court if it were to mount a genuine prosecution of bashir and the others within c dot now is it capable of doing that we don't really know yet but the good news is that today general bergner han pledged 100 percent cooperation with the international criminal court he went so far as to say that he would welcome the i.c.c. opening an office here in khartoum now this cooperation though doesn't necessarily mean that bashir is sent to the hague there are other ways to cooperate what you know it's going to require looking at and i think it's just too early to say is do they defer or does the sudanese government defer to the international criminal court judges to decide whether a genuine domestic prosecution is proceeding or not indeed will sudan even attempt to mount a domestic prosecution. or will it simply hand bashir over to the hague and it's just too early we don't really know the answers to those questions for han also and this is also good news stressed the importance of looking at justice across the board because i think as you noted in the opening the international criminal court is really only pursued crimes in dar 4 and indeed only the relatively early days of the dar for conflict there were atrocities committed in darfur later there are going to other atrocities committed in the nuba mountains insult court a fine indeed even in this last year there have been arguably crimes against humanity the the large scale killing of protesters here in the capital all of these are beyond what so far that the i.c.c. has looked out sudan seems to term and to mount a special court a special prosecution effort that can look more broadly at least at the most senior officials responsible for the most severe crimes they haven't done this yet but there does seem to be a at least a verbal commitment to move forward that's good news we now have to hold them to that well let me throw this now to some my head who's also sitting in khartoum because your friends didn't as professionals association you a part of the lobby for this transition and there has been talk of this tribunal being set up but i also know that there have been concerns about the capability the capacity of courts in sudan to try something like this and also concerns that it could further inflame tensions what's the sudanese professional associations take on all of this. well what happened yesterday in japan is a very important step forward towards peace justice and peace are synonymous it's very important at this stage to recognize that the crimes that have been committed against humanities and are for ought to be prosecuted then and it's quite important to recognise it that it's the right of of the armed resistance groups to insist that this step is taken at this point of time. and not to delay such decision. it's also important to note that these are the cornerstones of off the revolution from day one is freedom peace and justice so to to proceed further but as tim has mentioned it's not just the crimes in there for since 89 there are many atrocities and many crimes in numerous massacres and crimes against humanity is that have been committed against the people of sudan so it's important not to neglect these crimes as well it's an entire process of transitional justice that needs to take place and and this is just a step in the right direction it's a step forward towards. recognizing the value of justice towards the transition process ok i do want some clarity here though on the capacity of domestic courts and a tribunal that could potentially be set up in sudan to actually process some of these cases let me ask you that question really does sudan have the capacity to something like this not at all i just want to say that whatever mr tare she said just that the was very reasonable yet the word thing itself is a little bit of a big it's an administrative decision current regime should should just give directives to the. law enforcement agencies to bring those criminals. to justice and to submit them to the i.c.c. . i totally believe that the system the sudanese do does your system until 1989 it had the institution of capacity it had the integrity but now after $9989.00 the islamist regime has systematically. destroyed the system the system now doesn't have the institutional capacity it doesn't have the integrity and at the time that he game was unwilling to cooperate with the international community and this is what led to it did the united nation to take the decision the decree of $1593.00 which referred to this whole case to the i.c.c. even though that sudan is no part of the i.c.c. in the sense that it signed on the low but it wasn't there at the fight by the by the sudanese parliament so i don't want to get to lost here and the minute shall that all i guess i want to look more broadly at the potential of a feather division to be so good in sudan through a transitional justice process such as this one i mean we saw when when al bashir was sentenced to prison and during his corruption trial there was a huge amount of support for him still in sudan could this cement more division in sudan well it whatever it takes. the sudanese government doesn't have an option decision has already been taken by the you in general assembly the whole thing was that if we have to the i.c.c. all would decide the nice community a political community could could do is to comply with that decision so this there's no point even discussing this whole thing politicizing it or trying to our ideology the whole process ok let me throw this back to can because can the man that you met said. ok and mr han he was also accused of atrocities in west stuff for and there are a number of people within the government and the transitional council at the moment who a lot of the protest as regard as having been complicit in what took place and awful is that a move or any kind of sense that they will be held accountable for their actions in addition to those currently on arrest warrants that have been issued by the i.c.c. i mean there's no question that there are many military officials who would like to see no justice stunned because they fear for their own future their own liberty but you know those who say oh just sweep justice under the rug it's too complicated let's move forward you don't understand how you build democracy you can't to build democracy around impunity because that just suggests that you can commit more mass atrocities tomorrow and that'll happen you know the only way to really build the rule of law is to make clear that the most serious atrocities those responsible for them will be brought to justice and this is not an impossible task i mean one thing that's very impressive here in khartoum is seeing that you know just recently this was a military dictatorship but today they are accepting a democratization process because of the massive popular support for the effort over and over you've seen you know huge numbers of people take to the street and the military is basically recognize that it can't just shoot all the sudanese it's going to have to accept a democratization process and one element of that is the rule of law and i think that that accounts for why today general hahn gave us you know very strong verbal endorsement not simply of cooperation with the international criminal court but also with the need for a broader justice effort through a special tribunal established in saddam that indeed would look at atrocities in darfur and around the country that have been committed over the last 3 decades can you mention the word impunity then i do want to go to some my hair on this because my you are in the streets of khartoum as part of this popular movement and there is one man whose name doesn't appear on an i.c.c. arrest warrant and that's. mohamed hamdan the god i will committee who is now very much a part of this transition process and he was well he's widely acknowledged to have led the gender way defensive back in darfur and will he be held to account well at this point of time as time has mentioned it's up all up for on the investigations that are going to be taking place and it's the people in the streets who are pushing forward whatever it is whether it's hamad has done that below or whether it's over hon as we proceed further and as this process is set on track anyone and anyone who is held accountable and anyone who it has has been involved there have been involved in this process should be taken for trial and it's very important to note that now in a year more than a year after since that pricing has started people are still out in the streets were still out in the streets pursuing the main 3 points that if come out for which are again i repeat freedom peace and justice and that includes everyone none excluded because we are at the state of rebuilding rebuilding our nation and we cannot exclude anyone at this point of time when i say you want to join in i just want to point out the fact that even though we discussed this broadly sudan penal system doesn't have a dearth of 99 to one doesn't have any provisions by which it can incriminate people who committed crimes against humanity or genocide but having said this i think we ought to be careful that is. illegal and a political process that needs to take place here once we submit those 51 criminals it has happened there are some people who have already there is a president here. when submitted himself to the i.c.c. he was in 3 get it here and he came back can you. it happened to him so i think once we succeed in submitting the 51 individuals we kind of start thinking about some sort of beauty of or 'd distributive form of justice but i think we ought to look at this in a risk cause and that is the situation if we don't submit these criminals who have influenced the killing of 400000 human beings in list them for months and destroyed 400004000 villages if we don't do that then we are going to run a very high risk of the whole political process falling apart and if that happens god forbid we will get into civil war or let me talk a little more about that political process and i want to ask 10 here because i know that human rights watch has been documenting atrocities and our for that were even taking place after the cher was ousted in april what is the situation like on the ground in darfur now. well i actually just spoke to people from there for yesterday and there continue to be serious abuses committed on violence including sexual violence particularly targeting some of the people who are on the displaced people who are in camps who already have been displaced from their homes so you know this is not just a retrospective effort there are ongoing problems today the government doesn't even control all the territory of saddam so there is a real need to go forward you were asked about on him that he and i met and i met yesterday with the person who is leading the investigation into the june 3rd killings of the sit in protesters the pro-democracy protesters a massacre that appears to been committed by rapid support forces under the direction i meant to of humanity so yes he could very easily become a target this is from what i can tell a very genuine investigation it's one of a number of things going forward but this is the new sudan it's not going to be easy there is the need for international support but i think the sudanese people broadly recognize that you know for this transition to succeed it's going to need to proceed with these efforts of justice while you talk about this new sudan and the spokesman for this new sudan in juba at these peace talks he was the one who said that they would send people over they would have people appear in front of the i.c.c. and i'm i want to ask them a hair a little more about this because there was a military contingent that went down from khartoum as part of that delegation as he met he was slated to go but he didn't show up but does the presence of the military there does that suggest that this decision has their support so they are going to go along with it yes definitely. this the it's right now it's a process of a partnership that the government has been it's both civilian and military and it's it was the only way to proceed further so the decisions are taken are taken together whether it's the military component or the civilian component together which is where we're trying to proceed further as one body and tim can affirm here fact that he met with a bear he's also met with him doc and this is the the direction that we were proceeding in together as these people. with all components there might be a few. excuse me this is how we're proceeding further i believe that both agree ok i do want to take a little bit of a step back here and look at the context of the transition more broadly so sudan obviously needs a huge amount of funding to get back on its feet there's a huge economic crisis amongst other things and in order for that to happen sudan needs to be taken off the u.s. list of state sponsors of terror and there's been a bit of a campaign to get that done and we've even seen but meet with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu very recently and even though there are longstanding animosities there so on monday we also heard from the u.n. secretary general and he was addressing the a u summit just this past weekend in ethiopia and he called on world leaders to change their attitude toward sudan that's take a listen here i feel i want to say loudly and clearly it's time to expunge sudan from the list of states supporting him funding terrorism and drum up international support that will enable the country to overcome its challenges ken do you see this i.c.c. decision as part of that campaign to try to get a high level of legitimacy. well there's no question that the more positive human rights steps that the government takes the more kindly it will be looked upon by those in washington who are making this decision about designating sudan or continuing to designate it as a state supporter of terrorism i actually met with the head u.s. official in sudan yesterday and asked these questions and what he said was that you know what saddam would have to do is 3 things and one is to to stop supporting terrorism and he was unable to provide any ongoing evidence of support but that was one item too that they have to make a credible commitment not to support terrorism and then 3rd has to do with there's basically a lawsuit in the united states from victims of terrorist acts it was a default judgment of i think a $1000000000.00 and her against sudan says some solution has to be found in that but i think against this backdrop it certainly helps the more positive human rights steps that the sudanese government takes the more it doesn't look like a supporter of terrorism and the more you will get broad u.s. support to lift that designation which indeed dead stand in the way of the economic resources that sudan needs to make this transition successful willy's i want to ask you because this whole i.c.c. and decision was a key demand of the protest movement and that is primarily being driven in khartoum and you yourself are from for a very different demographic there how is this being seen and awful. i think that it is unanimous agreement that. we don't have any option but to bring those criminals to justice the people don't have much trust. in a situation of the capability of the national you do see a system so i think most people would definitely agree it was the decision but i want to just look at the this whole thing of boron this is one dog i think the. has been totally coopted by. these military officers and i i don't think. there is some sort of a distance or independence between the civilian component of the government and the military component of the government but they don't have an option because if you look at him do so government if this is an ideological minority that is suffering to pass some serious decisions the decisions here are basically primarily political the talent is political brain being in the majority of the sudanese people to this to this platform to disobedient platform because soon as a depository or evolutionary front was pushed away by the forces of freedom and king i think the right did we we had an ideological division that cannot easily be recovered and that's why it seems to me that they are very keen of making some amendment to that kind of political misconduct religio talking about division that some have is talking very much about how the civilian and military sides of the government were actually working very well together so let me give you the last word here and i as an activist and as someone who has been very involved in this and time isn't let me ask you very briefly all you personally optimistic about the future of your country definitely i'm very optimistic it's understandable that there might be some turbulence and. here in there there might some be some problems that arise and resistance to change the finitely use some places may arise but very optimistic that things are going to go all towards a proper throne station and that we will overcome all these challenges are lots of challenges and well and will clearly be watching this very very closely and i'm sure we'll all get a chance to speak about this much more in future so thank you to all of our guests here today that's will leave madiba here with me in the studio somaya mubarak in khartoum and kenneth roth from human rights watch was in khartoum today and thank you too for watching you can see this program again any time by visiting our website al-jazeera dot com and for further discussion do go to our facebook page that's a facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle there is at a.j. inside story for me in the stars and the entire team here and our top by for that. my . the plundering of armenia's natural riches has uprooted residents and desecrated the habitat of some of europe's most endangered species. but the remarkable campaign by local residents is challenging the miked of the country's investors and pinning high hopes on its newly elected prime minister people in power investigates armenia mining out the left. on a. knife begin. the babies every year in the united states. also on the same day. the baby is african-american and. this is twice as likely to happen why. rewind america's infant mortality on al-jazeera. ruins that speak of a rich history and income once ranged from this palace 1600 years ago this is the old town of change of the door to the sacred value of the past and to the century of much preaching ancient traditions are still being embraced here today that may change less than 2 kilometers away bulldozers are never the ground for a controversial new airport that's expected to shuttle millions of tourists to historic sites the airport shouldn't be the sacred folly she share has culture and traditions for thailand's but the big powers want to because it's the door to much of. the beatles' kind of who is poor is divided down and i would be in favor of an airport if more people come and make business with us but only if it will preserve our environment and our room and. some farmers like it look east they believe their lives may change bring development to our community and country. the. china sacks to senior officials is the number of coronavirus cases surges to more than 14000 in a single day. hello i'm on team dennis you're with al-jazeera live from doha also coming out cambodia's allowed the cruise ship to dock after several asian governments turned it away over fears of coronavirus. and turkey sends more reinforcements to northern syria after .

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