Hes a strong critic of nato yet dont trump said hell be asking realigns to be more involved in the middle east that he ongoing tension between tehran and washington wants nato able to offer this is inside story. Below their very warm welcome to the program im julie went on the President Donald Trump says the u. S. Doesnt need middle east oil so whats his countrys bull in the region well the president is calling on nato allies to step up their involvement there but that seems to contradict his previous questioning of the alliances relevance hes our justice member countries to increase their military spending get criticized nato as obsolete and split with some of its leaders over his decision to pull outs of the 2015 you clear deal with iran well the nato secretary general says he agrees with that the alliance should contribute more to the stability of the region well lets hear what the u. S. President s to say today i am going to ask dado to become much more involved in the middle east process over the last 3 years under my leadership our economy is stronger than ever before in americas achieved Energy Independence these historic accomplishment shades our Strategic Priorities these are accomplishments that nobody thought were possible and options in the middle east became available we are now the number one producer of oil and natural gas anywhere in the world we are independent and we do not the middle east oil. Well the president has also called on the other signatories to the 2050 nuclear deal with iran that the us pulled out of last year to do the same the very defective j c p o way expires shortly anyway and gives iran a clear and quick path to Nuclear Breakout iran must abandon its Nuclear Ambitions and end its support for terrorism the time has come for the United Kingdom germany france russia and china to recognize this reality they must now break away from the remnants of the iran deal who are j c p a way and we must all Work Together toward making a deal with the wren that makes the world a safer and more peaceful place. Well nato has previously carried out missions in the middle east and i was cited ura they alliances roughly 500 soldiers in iraq training iraqi soldiers whove been battling eisel since 2018 nato suspended its Training Mission there and lifted out some of its forces following the killing of irans top military commander custom salami its Longest Mission has been in afghanistan since 2001 the organization has more than 17000 soldiers in a noncombative role there it launched a military intervention in libya in 2011 that 8 months operation ended after president were marga duffy was deposed and killed. Well lets bring in our guests a new york Karen Joy Greenberg shes the director of the center on National Security a Fordham University in copenhagen on Skype Research poll today he is the chief Strategy Officer at restless and global and a former director of policy planning at nato and in exeter in the United Kingdom we have a bill or us like he is a researcher at the university of exeter specializing in iran iraq and middle eastern politics a very warm welcome to all of you the response if i can kick off with you the u. S. President has called nato amongst other things obsolete and apart from attacking Boris Johnson hes routinely bashed and insulted a good few of its european members but now he wants nato specing. Well well have to see if he really means it or if it was just where its a vote on the european allies seems to think that theyre not doing enough in the bigger issues or if you read it i think it raises some very serious questions im thinking the european allies and turkey by your use they talk to foreign terrorism why we are not there are but to use nato to. Iran is a look at you from. Your own country tells. Exteriorly. From your perspective would the situation currently in the middle east im thinking of regional powers here and of course iraq would they accept nato involvement in the region. In terms of iraq nato is already involved so they have a Training Mission there of the 500 or so soldiers and theyre mainly there to train and advise so it is then a small kind of capacity but i think whats important to note is that especially with regard to the conflict with iran nato is a military defensive alliance so an attack has to have taken place for it to be activated under article 5 so while hes asking for further assistance. Donald trump that is what we have to bear in mind is that the regional powers may be hesitant so if were looking at the Iraqi Parliament for example theyve made it very clear that they dont want. Foreign military presence in their country specifically from the United States of america however that was a bill that was passed without any of the sunni m. P. s or the kurdish m. P. s president so what that means is that there isnt a National Consensus on whether these troops should be there or not cameron joy greenberg from your point of view has nato abandoned trump already if i can put it like that and weve heard from him in stilton berg that he said it was rather nebulous that nato could contribute to more regional stability in the fight against terrorism but what does that mean. Yeah thats a very good question i wouldnt go so far as to say that nato has abandoned trump and i think if you had reversed the question has trump abandoned nato you would get a a much more readily positive answer i think from the point of view of the nato countries not just calling it obsolete but in many actions and and rhetoric about money among other things has very much stepped away from nato including from the article 5 and you know joint selfdefense and so i think that you know the relationship between the United States and nato is as fragile as its ever been i also want to agree with patriots from the beginning im not sure what. Validity to put on trumps the sort of invitation to nato i think it was more like a challenge of well nato you say you want to do something im going to put this out there sort of to deflect responsibility for what weve done so im not seeing it as a as a putting much behind this invitation and sabrina we also heard from trumps he made numerous statements and he simply said we dont need your oil anymore in the middle east but i dont pick that floras is it that simple and how much has the u. S. Energy independence as he puts it changed or could it change the Political Landscape in the region. I think it doesnt every fact weve actually started before. We can president or at the end of the Obama Administration when the u. S. Was moving quite fast and be Energy Independent. And what you saw is not this it weaves all of the u. S. Prisons in the middle east but im saved when it tends to be engaged and more thorough only in the willingness to actually let the others being the europeans when they can and when they want but also other powers that russia will turkey to feed a vacuum this is what we saw with the v. B. Operation where clearly if you have a man in his fish was willing to lead from the froth and prefer to sit in the back promenade how do your analyze actually carry out the operation so i think days are deeper trying to figure out which obviously truck is presenting you know i would say the most spectacular way but just to finish. The experts from Exeter University mentioned need to listen need to have or not to go to 5 so if and situation to be more active in the broader region of the middle east and also precut it does need to have not signify defeat which is not a specific operation but i mean here what were talking about is what then should eat and the increased presence and naval presence follows up but boys just size corporation weve if you from nato partners in the gulf and the north africa so that its not about you so the fighting the war the more increasing their presence to create more i would say reassurance for all of the nato allies that but then surely to the ops so what were talking about i think here is a change lots of potential hurdles and practical changes on the ground im guessing that nato would have to work with the u. S. To build some sort of naval capability but im also wondering at. If i can come to you on this many analysts right now are pointed towards a kind of grade longer term of revenge attacks if i use that language really loosely from iran and potential came to responses in the future depending on the g. s j c p o a and what might happen there but im wondering how an organization like nato would be useful in a scenario like. The thing is its all well and good having a military Alliance Like nato on the ground but you need to have the political will there as well to counter the threats that come from iran so again if we look. At iraq they have very very close ties to iran are heavily influenced by iranian strategy and they you know theyve ceded a lot of sovereignty to the uranium so obviously theres going to be a kind of a conflict of interest there on the one hand youve got the Iraqi Government whos keen to have increased investment from nato allies and especially the United States in terms of their defensive capabilities and on the other hand you have a a kind of a political thrust to push the americans out so if were looking at what the nato secretary general said the focus was kind of on counterterrorism so what nato could do conceivably given the if they had permission from the Iraqi Government was to kind of build local capacities so if they engage in a Capacity Building operation similar to what they have now but expand it so that the Iraqi Counterterrorism forces are more effective than that could be something they could do but i dont see how thats going to kind of marry up with the recent announcements by the Iraqi ParliamentKaren Joy Greenberg i can see you nodding your head for sypher asli there do you agree that perhaps if there is a role for nato if there is a supporting role. Yeah i think it has to be a supporting role i think the absence of u. S. Leadership the withdrawal of u. S. Leadership in the past few years is significant here i also think the lack of trust in what were going to do and if you think about the j. C. P. O. A and it was mischaracterized yesterday by President Trump is ending soon if you think about that i really wonder just what future there is for any kind of treaties or formal agreements that are made and i think the issue of trust here is actually very important i also think the issue of counterterrorism as much as were talking about it in this instance in terms of iraq because of whats happened this past week is maybe a larger story as many counterterrorism experts are saying than just iraq and how nato will or wont fit into that i think is another chapter and why is it the were talking about nato here not the u. N. I mean what could nato bring the potentially say for example the u. N. Might not for peace if i can come to you on the. Well i think is what you mentioned earlier need to care now gone be the least common risky risky its meaning to be to get their horses you get everything to actually be able to stand on their feet and be able to do with any kind of threat coming for. Terrorist organizations recently given given the cold mar that has developed in the region i guess my question is not whether nato could but should it. Well i think its a very good question thats a question because on paper or later going to all sorts of training and this is what they do add to that rather small scale but the question is whether this is you know out a way forward because if you look at all of the Training Missions that nato is be doing and you enter a division you trade missions these are may open and therefore its not in afghanistan we have been at it for i think 50 years and were still very far from having an exit strategy so i think the Training Mission even though its not about fighting its not something benign because you have to protect your forces you have to be able to counter some operations you have to be able to do intelligence and surveillance so its a form of military presence that weve got the city to fight and i think politically that makes it more problematic especially for the european allies who agreed to that until what if we look into the future and imagine for a 2nd that donald trump gets one of his wishes which was to be able to withdraw from the region in some sense what would the middle east Political Landscape look like i mean we got a flavor of it already knowing that the u. S. Is obviously withdrawn from the 2015 year to a deal but what would the region look like without u. S. Fingerprints. I mean despite the fact that the United States of america has had a very aligned influence on the middle east itself and very destructive influence i would say particularly with the invasion of iraq in 2003 and the subsequent occupation there. It is in effect and you know just looking at where we are now as opposed to looking at the past where we are now it is in effect probably just about holding back chaos from breaking out in iraq the u. S. Presence there is very important it provides a kind of a sense of a balance to the iranians and should they withdraw iran would just entirely swallow up whats left of iraq and they already dominate iraq even more so than the u. S. Has been able to counter them with so i think that the United States has to maintain a presence i mean at the end of days this isnt just about oil. Were also looking at the Global Economy so if even if the United States is Energy Independent it works and functions as part of a Global Economy so if everyone else starts to suffer invariably the United States will not suffer as well so there needs to be a continued u. S. Presence there needs to be perhaps if were looking at military alliances some kind of understanding that they need to secure passage of free passage of commercial shipping through the arabian or persian gulf and there needs to be a more great a consensus on an international basis perhaps through the u. N. On how to proceed with all of these counterterrorism threats at the end of the day it cannot be open ended we cannot continuously have a host nation saying this faction is now considered terrorist organization that faction is considered terrorist organization and theyre basically just singling out their political dissidents so we need to have that kind of check and balance there but i wonder beyond the old kind of populist playbook karen what alternatives are there except bringing in you know lets talk to nato lets bring in our european allies i mean in the white house what is the center of middle eastern strategy or isnt there one. What yeah its hard im sorry but its very hard to determine what the strategy is i agree about the need to maintain some kind of presence in iraq but we now have a sit u. S. Presence we now have a situation where were both between betwixt and between and have different we say we have different goals both day leaving d in terms of counterterrorism and in terms of leaving overall but you know i do think that when you asked a question about what do we foresee in the middle east i do think theres the possibility and there have already been of conversations among the nations themselves about how they want to go forward for example conversations between saudi arabia and iran and i and i and i i mean maybe this is sort of you know pollyannish but i do think there is a possibility that other nations can talk to one another and and see the best way forward and theyre absolutely right the Global Economy is at stake here its not just about the United States being you know oil independent and so so i do think its not just about these organizations whether its the u. N. Or nato i also think there are some bilateral negotiations that can go on that could be very constructive and for greece given what karen has just said there that its the Global Economy thats at stake here in reality is we structuring the Iran Nuclear Deal the only sensible strategic path i was of this mess. It was one imports from peter are of trying to at least start remarries far off big questions. Countries. Where it was clearly not you know because as we know that eusebio did not address irans regional activities which are now problematic as its Nuclear Ambitions so i think there was always this actually prisoner who unfortunately yes. I think you usually during a visit to washington and proposed to actually cooperate weve been talking to the station and trying to address and contain and solar to an extent and irans region our poster bed john was not that interested because hes more interested in you not. Rash moves and if you get it was a missed opportunity the question is and i agree with karen that i think. This sort of show in the middle east belongs to the middle east really its has to be the powers there at that find some kind of will disappear and these some kind of consensus on how they want to correlates the problem here is y