Defiant indian Prime Minister defends his controversial citizenship the deaths of angry protesters sweeping the country the book id like modi change his mind how far is the undermine secularism in india this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program im stan grant a secular state where all religions are welcome and equal before the law now that idea is at the core of indias constitution but many believe its under threat hindu nationalism has been emboldened by Prime MinisterNarendra Modi since he was elected in 2014 his government has taken measures that have raised fears among muslims in particular a new citizenship law officers Illegal Migrants of religious minorities from 3 neighboring countries the right to become citizens of india but it excludes muslims and that sparked anger and protest nationwide laura burton managed reports. 7 its the greatest challenge indias Prime Minister. Has faced since he came to power 5 years ago. Dozens of people have been killed in violence fueled by anger against the citizenship know which opponents say it discriminates against muslims. Addressing thousands of the supporters and the election rally in new delhi blame the opposition to stoking the protests began by needle is a belief in my brothers sense the slow has been passed some Political Parties have been spreading rumors they speak a lot of misleading the public they are inciting the public. You know america i want to ask those who are pelting stones and sticks getting people to enjoy police trying to do the us what are you hoping to achieve the police is no ones enemy. The citizenship Amendment Act makes it easier for migrants from afghanistan bangladesh and pakistan who arent muslims to gain citizenship. Critics say the law could lead to many muslims losing their citizenship broader storm or a hug right staging protests is our right they should not be violent so i oppose that whatever the police are doing i request them not to do it they should also listen we are also indians like you we are also humans. As protests continue in the capital and other parts of the country the government insists the law will not be repealed i protests have been ongoing since parliament passed the law earlier in december was but a student protest in jamey a 1000000 islamiya university in the capital a week ago turned into a movement of hundreds of thousands of students and antigovernment protesters nationwide people were angered after Government Forces fought with students stormed the campus firing tear gas into the library and posture. The worst violence has been in Uttar Pradesh for more than 5000 people have been detained. At least 1500 people have been arrested in other parts of india. So muslims can get citizenship under the citizenship Amendment Act but its feared millions who are unable to provide proof could be rendered stateless even if their families have lived in india for generations who are about a manly aljazeera. Here are some of the measures taken by the renter modi that have worried the 200000000 muslims who live in india now they form the 2nd largest Muslim Population in the world after indonesia in august the Indian Government revoked the special status of indian administered kashmir that divided the state into 2 territories to be directly ruled from new delhi one consisting of john moon kashmir and the other of the duc and in the Northeastern State of assan nearly 2000000 people including muslims have been excluded from the list of citizens raising fears they could be rendered stateless Indias Supreme Court has awarded control of a disputed religious site in the town of a larger for the construction of a temple many hindus believe the side of a former mosque was the birthplace of the warrior god rom and now there are protests over the new citizenship law. Well lets bring in our guest now a distraught on nigam is a member of the legal wing of the Hindu Nationalist Organization russ tria Swayamsevak Sangh he joins us by skype from new delhi tarren hiten is a professor in public law and legal theory and hackney fellow in law what im College Oxford university he joins us from london and it is a researcher at the center for research on extremism at the university of oslo she joins us by skype from horning and in the Netherlands Welcome to each of you and tara and this is such a fascinating story that were seeing playing out at the moment when you look at the nature of the protests who is turning out the nonsectarian nature of the protests whats it telling us about india right now. I think the most important thing to notice about the protest is the model of a cavity that its using windows that of the Indian Constitution of india has journalistic secular tradition and i would not have imagined as a constitutional lawyer i would ever see tens of thousands of people reciting in public collectively indias constitutions and i mean when we go to that what theyre saying fundamentally yes we are a secular nation we do not want to be divided up for a long sic tyrian term so why why are we hearing this and seeing this i think this is a this is a fight for the soul of the country what is what is the kind of country india is going to be this is not just a protest by muslim citizens of india this is a protest by and citizens from or different religions and faiths costs races. And and this is a fight about what this country is going to become we have had 70 years of a secular of illust diverse nation the question is will we remain so or will they become a majority tarion exclusive. And the nation that is the question before the people look at the question then to disregard nigam is that what is at stake here is this citizenship Amendment Law a direct attack on the sick you are fundamentally constitutional secular nation nature of india no im. Not not at all in fact if one reads the citizenship Amendment Act it is not about a prick being anybodys Citizenship Group in the country it is only about giving citizenship to go to you just you persecuted minorities of course i understand and pakistan and bangladesh but sir if i can you know can order up any there fundamentally what hes saying is that muslims are not included on that list how is that then not an attack on muslims and an attack on the secure nature of the country. See indian and Indian Muslims are not affected by it indian citizens. By threatening and people seeking citizenship are not included muslims are not included hindus really life i think anyone who did christians are included but what people are protesting about is the muslims not include muslims let us understand the object of this act it has a very narrow objective of giving it to the really just persecuted minorities of these 3 countries whose a state religion is islam so when muslims are being you know. Mistreated in those countries this is not a religious persecution by one region. Or sect or a problem within islam those are governance issues of those countries which india is not required to address and also there is a Historical Context to it because at the time of independence when the partition took place hindus and the other minorities wanted to come to india they were struck by you know giving in acting a law essential services law in pakistan because they wanted them to clean roads and other things because they belonged to she do because at that point of time they were prevented to come to india and gandhi very clearly said they should be allowed to come to india so it isnt that contention also in the context of narrowly that agreement which happened in 150. 00 where they promised each other that they will take care of their minorities kept its words that india kept its word and the monarchies grew from it 1st into it in person today where a 62033 person d minorities in pakistan has been reduced to 3 percent so it is only a narrow objective it does not write Indian Muslims does not affect indian citizens well thats thats not how a protester saying it i want to go to every honest man but law giver a right of reply to that to taren now when he hears this that it is not affecting the citizenship of muslims inside the country that effectively you talking about muslim majority countries to be able to take care of their own does the citizenship law then have a different context how do you read that. Youre going to turn a different issues here one is the constitutionality of the citizenship Amendment Act itself and the 2nd is its connection with its impact in connection with the National Population registered exercise now just the bill of the act itself is it is college in the language of refugee protection but it excludes a whole swathe of refugees and what these in pakistan where not benefit from the slow but also there is no rhyme or reason why. Is not on the list man might is not on the list no part is not on the list and were done is not on the list the only reason is that the minority protection logic applied to these non muslim majority countries were to quiet the government to include muslims so this is a fairly blatant attempt to to use religion to divide indians but also you know article 14 of the Indian Constitution it got undies the right to equality not just to those who are citizens of india it got and b. s the right to equality before an in laws to all persons including those who are not yet citizens so it is a breach of the law itself is a breach of the Indian Constitution but it signals more importantly its expressive symbolic impact is that muslims are less than citizens let me go to it so its impact combined with that population that is so we can talk about what were going to do going to come back to that were going to come back to that but i do want to bring in now and just widen the context of a bit here because what Prime Minister modi has been accused of in the past is playing the he new nationalist charge if you like the philosophy of the new and it has been very successful for you he won an election just a few months ago resoundingly so what does this say about the poor of hindu nash. Millys and inside india well it certainly shares particularly with movies the election and how mainstream the idea is a few nationalism become the thing governance in india and its important for us to remember that what to suggest and shit and im glad its reflected a forum actually across the world and in particular is anti muslim up there in her and immigrant other and how racial and ethnic minority i mean has become so prominent in st magistrate its true arent them but this populism this nationalism the era of the strongman if you like and we are talking about men we hear this from c. Jinping and the attack on the week as we hear it from Vladimir PutinViktor Orban Donald trump has played this cat it was part of the of the brics it discussion in the brics that vote as will why is it so successful it had been successful for modi it has been successful in swim what does it tell us about age yes its very excellent question what is something that unites all of these far right nationalist movements from india to the u. S. The u. K. Preserve the philippines turkey accent or is the idea that there is a cultural identity under threat of the majority and by scapegoating that in the minority that is something that is a primary message that pulls together all of these foreign nationals. Dish people have long memories and we know that there are still those who look to what happened in gujarat when when Prime Minister modi was the chief minister there and a 1000 muslims were killed in riots here at the time become an International Pariah he was accused of not doing anything to stop that the United States banned him from visiting we had the recent ruling on the religious sides at there is a feeling in india that promised a modi is has played this nationalist he knew nationalism codd and that this citizenship amendment fits directly into that what do you side of that. Let us be very clear the all the schemes that the Prime Minister has launched in his 6 years as the Prime Ministership. Have not discriminated between hindus and muslims both in those and muslims have benefited out of it and other minorities as well so that in fact in their areas are more muslims have benefited than the hindus and therefore that does not you know for that kind of allegation that has been made secondly so far as d the. Interest is concerned he brought the brought under control the rights then todays massive rights are taking place and out of which he can do so also died because of this fighting nobody seems to be aware of that now somebody raised the issue of tamil and during yes time it was a movement about independent state independent country and that they have sort of yes we have given to tamils hundreds of thousands. So far as concerned that was also right about independent state of rakhine in burma and these are bengali muslims and their 1st you know contact is with bangladesh and that is where they 1st refuse under the un law if they move forward then it is considered an Onward Movement not on the basis of religion that are just cannot be given on the basis of religion so any movement beyond bangladesh should be considered for any other reason not for religious persecution together especially just ask you for letting us know yes isnt it better to just quickly turn it around to do more no there are 2 more important issues out here people Somebody Just talk about article 14 you know this abolishing article 14 there is a concept called reasonable classification inherent in our constitution under which the special and higher rights have been given to muslims and other minorities it is on the basis of same concept this ca has come if you like that this principle then you attack the special privileges given to minorities or the reservation given to certain sections so this is not violative of article 14 there is a concept of the simple classification inherent in our constitution apparently by the Supreme Court of india it is on that basis this law has come and we have done our work before before this law has been brought in the parliament this law has been logically passed by the parliament with majority this is how the laws are made in india there is a fear mongering lot of fear mongering going on among the people that has to be stopped people dont people on the streets dont even know what this noise is all d about so one has to stuff your mongering lot of Political Parties or do you want to put that then to tyrant is there an element of fear mongering here as dishes this was a law that was passed by the parliament we soon are in ramadi speaking to large crowd as as well today so there is still strong support for someone who has had said before was just reelected a matter of months ago. Look i think this argument of people who dont know what theyre protesting at about is astonishingly patronize ing to the people of india. Basically the point of course article 14 but its resembled classification and the point is whether this classification is reasonable for classification to be reasonable if youre intention is to protect religious lipa secured minorities protect all of them if your intention is to. Distinguish between different religions that classification longstanding jurisprudence of the Supreme Court principles the contributions that you cannot make a classification based on religion that is simply not it is an investigation right so the and they inclusion of as our families after the most the overt inclusion of other religious groups we dont even need to prove persecution under this law so what youre creating is the 2 track system where some people based soley on their religion and nationality get citizenship without having to prove anything and some others have to go through an extremely onerous such a system of procedurally providing evidence of persecution in their countries to maybe get citizenship right that classification because its based on religion and not if if the government are you absolutely needs a refugee law in generous fair and just refugee oh but it has to apply to everyone who is persecuted not based on some religions who are and some or not even though it will not count as very reasonable under any. Standing us prince of the Supreme Court or maybe im just wondering here given what weve seen given the response of the government the crackdown of the government the ban on protests now whether this protest in your view came as a surprise to noor in ramadi that he wasnt expecting this given the success of the new nationalism hindutva if you like previously. Well you can certainly see that that is resistance or its true and somebody at the beach or government has been building for a while just by the fact that marie was the elected earlier this year and its also the more Prominent International spotlight in terms of what this government and the previous governments have implemented in terms of achieving their International Stage and that is not something that has gained more International Media and critical attention to me after the Company Issues with kashmir