Around 6 months ago show no signs of dying down a days long standoff at Hong Kong Polytechnic University has led the u. S. Senate to pass a bill aimed at censuring beijing the new hong kong human rights bill has infuriated china which accuses the u. S. Of ignoring protests or violence neither sites looks like backing down so how will this ends i will be speaking with our guest shortly but 1st sarah clarke reports on the standoff between police and students who are refusing to leave a university campus. In a city rocked by violence and months of protests everyday life is carrying on. Primary and secondary schools have resumed classes after being closed for more than a week some major roads have also reopened but traffic is still congested and some raw lines remain blocked at Polytechnic University in Central California up to 100 protesters are refusing to leave. Riot police have surrounded the campus ready to bike arrests if any demonstrators try to skype. All. Of this. On tuesday around 800. 00 surrendered 300. 00 around the idea of 18 and cant be charged with brushing others managed to escape the campus and avoid a wrist some protesters have attempted to flee over the last few hours through the universitys drainage system but they were arrested other attempts were made to a skype of a not but those students were met by police and retreated back inside the campus of the United States senate has backed the prodemocracy protests movement in hong kong and a unanimous vote senate has passed the hong kong human rights and democracy act which threatens to invoke tried sections on the city if the u. S. Considers human rights have been violated we in the United States stand in solidarity with democratic protesters who have every right to assemble and petition their government for their rights as citizens of hong kong the bill will now go to the house of representatives the Hong Kong Government has rejected the bill demanding the u. S. Stop interfering in the citys internal affairs these rights are being protected by the basic law hong kong article 4 basic law protect human rights and we have seen that with all these rights including rights given to anybody working in hong kong reporting in hong kong so these are all self interest to do so i dont see there is any that reason for changing that and thats that explain why in our statement we strongly sort of object to any attempt by any country try to sort of inference hong kongs own interest district elections will be held in hong kong this weekend the government has not ruled out postponing that if there is more violence clock aljazeera hong kong. Well lets now get the thoughts of our guests joining us from beijing is honor tangan hes a political analyst and advisor to the chinese governments on skype from Hong Kong David swank to rex there of Transnational China Consulting ltd and in london benefit bridges hes cofounder of whom cohen watch thats a Human Rights Organization gentlemen welcome to the program let me start with you i know its hangin weve had 6 months of protests the situation is clearly deteriorating just how did we get to this point why are we in this violent stalemate well you have a movement that does not necessarily have a core of leaders its kind of metamorphosis that every time they get something they want a d identify Something Else and i say that day i mean it is a Group Decision and as a result it has just a spiral downwards now it is just simply almost a terrorist movement that is really literally holding the people of hong kong hostage. As a terrorist movement you would say that these protests when they started there were many hundreds of thousands if not a 1000000 a you suggesting that this and it constitutes a terrorist movement that that a minds of supporters coming from. Not not at all i mean the the in the beginning they were exercising their free rights to protest they were they had permits to do this they were peaceful they were Going Forward that is quite different from what we have today when you start seeing the you know these kids on the street massed all right with to toms with weapons battling with Police Setting fire to public buildings attacking the m. T. R. Preventing people from getting to work preventing people children from going to school that is terrorism you are making people afraid and its like rogers are your views on this this is terrorism being conducted against the citizens of Hong Kong Well i certainly dont condone the violent acts by the students but i think its really important to understand what where this is come from i think it is fuel by Police Brutality the police started the violence as has been said the protests were totally peaceful at the beginning but the Police Responded to the protests with consistent totally disproportionate violence and brutality we now have reports of torture of people in detention of allegations of rape as well as the constant tear gas pepper sprayed beatings with batons shooting rubber bullets and even live ammunition so i dont condemn the violence by the protesters but it is a desperate response to an already brutal situation that was initiated by the police at david so i do you are in hong kong for us and how would you respond to these these 2 perspectives how we got to this point this is cool. Really a violent stalemate isnt coming as the result of a concerted Terror Campaign or is this the result of people who feel they have been unfairly treated by the police and there is likely to be no resolution until doctors address well that the clearly the violence has gotten out of hand so in that sense i think beijing has a of the valid position but but on a couple of points that were made 1st of all and then how come people still strongly support the protesters and i think theyre largely understanding of the violence they dont condone the violence but they generally understand it because they feel that its come from. Hong kong government that has only made one concession that hasnt responded to the rest of the concessions i disagree with the view from beijing and its been a long time since theyve responded to do anything else so in that sense the protests have simply escalated p. People look you know that theres a serious battle here i think for the freedoms that people have here in hong kong and people feel that they jane has been acting in a way carrie lamb the chief executive has been acting to facilitate greater controls more integration even legal integration between hong kong in the mainland and the young people dont want to do that you know and and so they originally began to protest citizens joined with them and then it got much more you know violence on both sides i would argue clearly the police have used some excessive violence there is no doubt about that but as the gentleman from beijing said you know while its a cocktail. So you people on fire thats not a good thing is it a very few. Would disagree with you in a time get how would you respond to that we are in this violent stalemate how do we get out of it you pointed out earlier that these were valid protests at the beginning they had permits they were protesting in large large numbers and yet they arent you they are not listen to him this is the only course of action they have left to take what will it take to resolve the situation. Well im going to dispute your ass assertion that there is nothing for them to do there are elections coming on up on the 24th if it is in fact a democracy and these people want a rule of law and they believe in democracy they should vote i dont recall that theres anything in the constitution that says that mobs can assemble on the street. And whether peacefully or not and take over the government that is not how it works right so if it is in fact a democracy they should be exercising their rights at the ballot box not by throwing molotov cocktails not by killing 70 year old men this is unacceptable this idea that people keep saying that i dont condone the violence but you know i understand that thats like somebody saying i dont condone the fact that they kill people of auschwitz but i understand that there is no understanding this level of violence ok david so i could say you were trying to get in there yeah i think i think i dont disagree that that the level of violence has surpassed what people. Would would like to see i think theres no doubt about that but but you cant ask people to stop the violence if they dont know what theyre going to get in return now i agree on the elections you know and were hoping that in fact you know lots of violence will stop will come can i finish we hope that the protesters will tone it down and so that we can go forward on the elections because the elections could go very well for the Democratic Forces here but but when and on says you know the news democratic processes its worth remembering that even. 2016 there was a legislative elections and the local government through 6 members who were elected by people through the parliament through you know the elections threw them out of the parliament on that was a pretty silly thing to do to the eye. Most people would say that was ok but they threw 4 people out of the parliament by doing that they created a enough votes in the legislature so that mrs lay ever thought that she could push through the extradition treaty she was told what widely a 1000000 people march law the law society a lot of people told her not to do it she ignored that and she tried to push the bill through so that they could have the i dont like thats what im going to have to cut you off so its a solution thats thats too if i guess they were suggesting the solution here lies in the ballot box at bennetts at rajas would you agree we were hearing the carrier she was elected and but was carrying out policies that were not amenable to protest or is the solution therefore a bit of both right. Yes i well i totally agree that people should allow the elections to take place should not give the government any excuse or justification for delaying or canceling them and people should exercise their democratic rights in these local elections of course these are local elections so that they dont they went in any change of leadership at the top but nevertheless they will result in an expression through the ballot box of the people and thats incredibly important i very much agree with david with davids ike on 2 points firstly we need to remember that. Not just the legislators who were thrown out but also over recent years a number of candidates disqualified including one candidate joshua wong disqualified from taking part in these elections so theyre extremely imperfect elections but nevertheless people should take part and i also agree with david that at every step of the way over the last 6 months kerry lamb personally has had opportunities where she could have averted the situation deteriorating and at every step shes mishandled it refused to listen to people refused to compromise or engage and she is responsible ultimately for this crisis and i know tankan at let me put it to you then that these elections will take place but ultimately the deck is stacked against these protesters. So any politician who has a tin ear in your mind deserves to have people on the streets committing acts of violence randomly including japanese tourists i find this hard to believe that people are actually saying that we shouldnt stop the violence that it let me spanish this time so you know this idea you know i notice david said we dont exactly know who we are but at this point there is nobody to negotiate with you seem to have a lot of voices many of them saying Different Things the initial request was to have the extradition treaty which was extremely reasonable more reasonable than any extradition treaty that hong kong has with other countries and then when it was finally given all of a sudden there appeared more this is what happens when you have a mob that it does not have any idea of how to achieve its solutions it simply stays in the streets demanding more and more ok that is there thats an important point and this is a point that keeps recurring at benedict and david you have both stated that we dont say approval for the violence but until this violent conduct ends its not a reasonable that hong kong authorities or beijing would feel the need to clamp down you cannot have these kind of violent incidents most of cocktails on the streets i mean i would call for the violence on both sides to stop and i would urge the protest is to continue to protest peacefully i dont think they should give up. Very reasonable demands but i totally agree that throwing molotov cocktails and so on is not acceptable so i would called on them to stop the violence that but i would also urge the Hong Kong Government and the police to exercise restraint in in how they handle this and yes those who have committed criminal acts should be. Held accountable through the criminal justice. But they shouldnt be beaten and raped and pepper sprayed in their face and in some cases even shot einar tangan completely that is completely when what are you saying somebody was raped why would you throw that in there if somebody had been raped the International Press would have been all over it all right why would you Say Something like that add that in sara lee youre obviously biased if you think that maybe this is going to score points with people watching this interview at bet doesnt want to see how that you respond. There have been several serious allegations of gang rape in detention by the police i accept that that hasnt been widely reported it may well come out in more detail and i emphasize there are allegations at this stage i havent been able to verify them but theres allegations of that then why would you say that there was rape if there are only allegations. I said several times a geisha. Like to leave this talking point for now i do want to get to what is what is driving these protests because i know you have referenced it a couple of times the the elements of perhaps foreign interference now the chinese president xi jinping has said that whats really driving these protests isnt politics he says economic developments is the golden key to resolving the problems facing hong kong to say and some extreme and see china forces in the us are trying to turn hong kong into a battle grounds for us chinese rivalry they want to turn hong kongs degree of autonomy in fact so in dependence now this talking point has also been mates in this debate undertaken would you agree with this do you think that there is an external elements driving these protests well ok theres 2 levels that we can talk about here one is allegations that there are nonprofits mostly religiously based who do not like communism because they see it as an impediment but this is not been proven but the thing that is very clear is that there is a lot of oxygen being given by people in the u. S. At a very high level the state department the Vice President congressman the bills that have been passed today indicating that they are going to take a very jaundiced view towards kong kong if they feel it is not enjoying quote the rights that they believe it should have and whats interesting about this is let us put it on the other foot lets say china was to say we dont like the level of gun violence in the United States we dont like the wars you cause we dont like the fact that you dont take have a proper Social Security net were there for going to judge you now lets take that one step further and have every country out there deciding that they should make demands on other countries before they trade on them based. What they do you would not have a world order you have world disorder simply the jungle exactly what donald trump has been preaching print day one when he said make America Great again ok at the expense of the asli of the rest ok so were in the final 5 minutes of this discussion jensen so if we could keep your responses quite brief let me come see you benedict forgers do you think that that is a valid complaint from the chinese why should foreign governments be passing laws and passing judgment on what happens in what is essentially chinas internal territory. I dont think its a valid complaint a thought 1st of all let me say that its completely absurd to suggest that the protests themselves are in any way orchestrated or influenced by outside powers that the protestors are on call as and it was entirely their initiative i think there are 2 points i would say about the International Community 1st of all the United Kingdom in particular has not just a moral but also a legal responsibility to monitor and speak out for the defense of the freedoms that were promised to the people of hong kong. Before the handover through as a signatory to the sign of british joint declaration which is still a legal treaty at the United Nations valid until 2047 ok but then the rest of the International Community i think has has a responsibility to stand up for universal human rights because hong kong is such an International City i think its understandable that the world has an interest and addictive its why but whats your view out there so you think there is an external element is the u. S. Trying to stir up trouble with the bill that was passed in the senate wasnt there is death im pretty much in opposition to what the United States congress has done and i dont think it helps the situation you know and good for aspire you know if you will on the fire but i would like to take exception to the argument and presidencies argument that says all about economics and i dont see this as being all about economics and i think that that china just has refused to recognize that since oh id say 2003 it has consistently tried to constrain the freedoms here of the people my home kong and i see this is the bottom line and that the young people here have another 27 years 2