Know the simple logic of the situation doesnt follow that path and you know we lost touch with the reality that we depend absolutely upon the nature the land the planet on which we live and from which we get all our resources all of food and everything and so you know what were really looking at here is is a mindset and actually when we change when we approach. The idea of making eco such an atrocity crime were putting it there on a level with were basically saying if you destroy the environment its like continue no its like committing a massacre and you need to take responsibility for that and so you know when you say you know were criticizing. The way that governments operate yes but thats actually fundamentally whats going on and thats what the entire Global Climate mobilization everyone from Extinction Rebellion to grettir to the youth strikes you know everybody is beginning to realize that that is what we actually are dealing with. So i want to bring this in from you tube someone says that it is overdue this conversation is overdue to stop those responsible for creating pollutants to enter the environment to then be held legally accountable but there are ideas among our Community Members on why it might be overdue want to bring in a bid e. O. Commenter a barrister in the solicitor benjamin and he explains this is really all about the money the main challenge as i see it that faces those of us who want to criminalize the destruction of the global human life support system is that the very people who are responsible for writing laws are in this case also the people responsible for the 2 that the that we are seeking to criminalize every government in the west subscribes to neo liberalism the liberalism prioritizes corporate profits above Everything Else in the world corporations profit mostly in one way by destroying human life support system were asking government ministers to write legislation that would criminalize their own conduct were asking criminals to prosecute themselves theyre reluctant to do that its an absurd situation many of it is absurd and the way he lays it out there what what do you make about yes i think and here i would like to say that the near special event so should we be coming in and start think a pretty big girl in. And i also would like to see your bet was the culprit and then they already have a. Girl that can court rules them. When people wake up on the say other. And ill hand in glove with the destroyers that. Get them that thats part of the forest for ivan and the law but. What does and what does that all the farthest the last get that was also there they become my parents and lead over the life of cities so yes you can leave it that but Public Opinion then i think is. The bottom and follow stories to put pressure on the people who elected. Democratically and people above all to listen to the public i would agree with with menopause my absolutely about the power of Public Opinion making a difference and i would also say that the reason that our campaign focuses on the International Criminal court is its one of the few if not the only Global Legal Forum where the small states which have the absolute strongest incentive to take forward this little have as much voice as the policing the big guys if you like so were working with pacific small island states who are already suffering at the sharp end of Climate Change that already going on the water theyre already suffering a huge additional number of Severe Weather events per year which have a massive impact and so they actually do have an incentive as states to take forward allure of this kind and so its not completely hopeless this idea that potentially you know youre asking the criminals to regulate themselves what youre actually looking for is you know all those small states that have the courage to move this forward because once that happens once somebody has the courage to propose this we have a huge Civil Movement here that will then have a huge lever for their own governments and when you look at. Of course. You know i think what benjamin pointed out is incredibly important and it goes to that deep structure of the law being relegated by those who have been really complicit environment environmental destruction. However we do have a lot of stories about the loss transport of potential through piecemeal improvements like the clean water act in the United States like the water framework that wrecked it in the European Union town you know the name water act in the United States some of its they roll back just recently. And they said at thats just the beginning were going to rope some more back so that if it was a criminal offense maybe that law would stick. Yeah i think thats absolutely true and i think im interrupting the no a little bit as i shouldnt really be doing that but i just want to push back a little bit because in United States if you cite that as an example just recently just in the last 2 weeks some of the clean water act has has as we roll back let me put this to you i want to put this case to you and im going to do it via some extreme weather video from pakistan so i want to show you some flooding and i want to put this case to you it was a successful case of ask the guy he is a farmer in the south punjab breed in region of pakistan he took his own government to court to say that they were threatening his livelihood his life because of Climate Change because. Water and food and energy or if that was in secure i and he won the case which is interesting because how do you say that your government is responsible for something that is happening around you that its very hard to say what the flooding what is your fault of the Food Insecurity that is your for how do you do that kate obeirne. So the meat of the le garri case boils down to a piece of executive policy the national Climate Change policy in pakistan which is a whole suite of administrative measures meant to combat Climate Change now it goes back to something i think our 1st commenter mentioned which is that we have a huge enforcement gap and where the gari succeeded was in arguing that undue delay. In terms of enforcing this executive policy was unlawful that you are not allowed as a government to simply sit around and pledge this sort of poultry political commitment and not do anything about it so its a real Success Story there and i think it plays on a history of enforcement litigation where environmental litigators and of course its worth pointing out that look ari was not just a farmer he was also a law student yet he had the power of narrative on his side as well. And i think thats an important current of litigation but theres Something Else you know looking in the footnotes of legal history in terms of eco side means we can go a step further than simply these sorts of Environmental Enforcement cases and thats the fact that we did within the rome statute have something called article 26. 00 in the ninetys during the draft and then just remind everybody the rome statute. The rome statute is what creates the International Criminal court. And what during its drafting stage it was actually a provision on eco side that was essentially included and not only was it included one of the salient debates was not whether eco sidings was something that should become actionable but rather how we deal with the intent element of eco side and delegates from belgium i mean the early ninetys yeah absolutely yeah. Youre absolutely right because theres a difference here with the other returned from from other atrocity crimes and if youre going to commit if youre going to go to war on somebody effectively you kind of have to have the intent to go to war on somebody whether whereas with. What we are really looking at is a situation of what we might call in u. K. A little recklessness in other words youre committing an act where youre intending to commit the act but youre not necessarily expressly intending to committee decide but on the intent side of things what were looking at is knowledge of the fact that you should have known that your act with going to lead to eco thought id said in that way yes it is a little different and and i think that that would actually be the the premise on which it would be included as an atrocity crime would be as a crime of recklessness or negligent 50 like of ignoring the knowledge that you should have had so judge i dont care point i take your point there but i want to raise it with another point with another legal mind in fact this is donald hes a law professor and here is his state. Bunn change is real and it should be addressed but the courts are not the appropriate forum for finding relief from it the facts are funny its of a woman our constitutional separation of powers commits policy making decisions to the legislature and elected branches now the courts creating retroactive criminal or civil liability furthermore from a comparative institutional competency perspective the electorate are simply better at this task theyre capable of taking in evidence making perspective rules weighing competing composing considerations having Public Participation having rigorous transparent and open debate the courts can do none of this furthermore the legislators can be held accountable if they get it wrong courts going on so does your he says the courts arent the best place for this but would you say back to him. I would say that actually its not the court that make these decisions if you are going to if you are going to add he confided to the rams that that wouldnt be the court deciding to do that that would be the heads of state and their dedication and presumably influenced by their electorate and they would be the ones that were would be debating this and ultimately putting it into International Law or its not the court itself that the that if i could jump in there. You know thats really interesting proper soria lexs uses but i think the fundamental issue with that is no one is saying the courts are an official solution no one is saying that in light of what we know about Political Administration across jurisdictions that somehow the quickest or best way to solve any of the harms that come about as a result of Climate Change is through judicial system i dont know anyone who takes that proposition terribly seriously but its a mechanism of last resort because our more efficient mechanisms have not your worked and were running out of time are you guess im going to ask you this not to put you on the spot but a good spot if you could take if we actually had an International Criminal law a home again so environment what would be the 1st case that you would take this is a sentence really. Go ahead what would be the 1st case for you where in the world do you think we need this international are right the 1st case one thing that was is what people more than india i think the polish should be actually. Well should may the better this is a book about men father listen ok all right what would you be using this International Criminal law if it comes into being i would be terribly original here i will wholly agree farmers in the global south absolutely are right and you copy that but thats ok jojo what would you be using the Ecocide International control for when if it comes into being. You know what im going to slightly thought that that because i mean there are many that i could name all right but i think the real power of this is that once you actually see it appearing over the horizon you know with once you get to the point where a state is prepared to say we believe this is an atrocity crime youre actually going to start to see a transition period youre going to change in peoples you know moral conception so ideally in my ideal world i would see nobody in the dock because of the time we have acted because by time it actually got ratified by everybody people the pressure. This is going to change so much that you actually would have stopped the hall which is the ultimate intention all right judge i thank you so much for that. We will end our conversation there thank you judge i thank you kate and thank you madam for helping us understand this idea about holding ourselves accountable and our Major Companies and also governments for criminal law a coverage of the Climate Crisis continues on the next episode of the strain is the climate apocalypse upon us or is there still time we will find out on thursday thanks for scaring us which i can i will see you next time. Our growers of togo. Defenseless against the winds have been indifferent to international marketplace. And political activist on a mission to establish a cooperative to make and sell chocolate on their own time and. People and power. A taste of independence on aljazeera. Shes the head of 4 generations of family and the bearer of 40 years of suffering fools a heart or a hinge a refugee in her ninetys has fled persecution in me and mark 3 separate times in her life 1st in 1970 then 1991 and finally in 2070. 1 the war theyd be to as they kidnapped as they detained does. Ghoul and her family span almost a century in age bonded through blood and displacement they now all live in a single hut located in the Worlds Largest refugee camp in many ways whats happened to this particular extended family really mirrors whats happened to so many other rohinton who face decades of repression and abuse the range of arent just the Worlds Largest group of stateless people theyre also among the worlds most persecuted minorities. Biological and chemical agents hard to deal with but honest throughout history a lot more 1st heard it said one man started fighting developed by nation states there could be enough to face. Now within reach of those seeking. Find the most toxic substances. And me in physical threat on al jazeera i really felt liberated as a journalist but i joined us in getting to the truth doesnt lie with us for this job. To attacks not gonna stop to kill dozens with just 9 days to go before the president ial election. Jordan this is. Also coming up israels Prime MinisterBenjamin Netanyahu asked his rival benny gantz to form a unity government after an election that was too close to call. Saudi arabia says it has proof iran was behind the attack on its Oil Facilities but the u. S. For creating the destruction. Broken homes and broken promises 2 years on from the devastating earthquakes in mexico. Dozens of people have died in 2 separate attacks in afghanistan carried out by Government Forces with u. S. Air support has killed at least 20 people in the Eastern Province and earlier at least 18 people were killed and 96 injured in a taliban Suicide Attack near a hospital in the southern Zabul Province a Defense MinistrySpokesman Says the intended target was a nearby Training Base for afghanistans National Intelligence agency joins us live from the Afghan Capital kabul rob so yet another attack which is being claimed by the taliban plus now we have this asked reich tell us whats been happening. Thats right another day of attacks darrin 1st of all this attack in colorado this happened early thursday morning it was a very quickly claimed by the taliban they say that they were targeting an office of the n. D. S. This is the Afghan Intelligence service it was a truck bomb that drove up against an exterior wall of this building detonated but right next door to this headquarters was also the provincial hospital which is appears to have taken the brunt of the explosion a number of people have been killed the official told at the moment it is likely to rise is 18 People Killed and 96 people injured the taliban as they always do they claim that they were targeting soldiers government agents but we do know from statements from the provincial Governors Office that many women children also medical staff were among the injured a part of the problem in dealing with the aftermath of this bomb blast and pictures reaching us here in kabul show that a bit large section of the center of this city was completely flattened is how you treat the injured you would normally take them to the provincial hospital the same hospital which has been devastated so a number of the injured having to be taken by road to neighboring kandahar but were still now getting details about this 2nd attack this happened in one province this is the province the borders with pakistan it happened wednesday evening now according to the Governors Office this was as you mentioned there. A coalition attack a drone strike against whats claimed to have been an Islamic State hideout and that 20 eisel fighters were killed and now we know that this hideout is close to the tora bora region which is a stronghold for a number of groups of fighters but it also seems as though harvesting pine nuts in a nearby field where a number of civilians people come in from neighboring