Why is kenya important this african country is conducting yet another population count its outcome is expected to shift political boundaries and shape elections but in a country divided along ethnic and tribal lines what does that mean this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program. Governments has been holding a historic census over the weekend more than 160000 people would you ploy to collect data from its population of about 50000000 vets process has proven to be a challenge since millions of kenyans live in slums with no official address millions more nomadic herders who cross into neighboring countries regularly. Kenyas government is conducting a census for the 6th time happens every 10 years and the result may be significant for several reasons state resources are allocated to each district according to population higher numbers of people means more money from the Central Government in the last census 10 years ago there were allegations of data rigging this time police say theyve arrested one chief in northern kenya for trying to double the numbers of people in his area. Its also significant in terms of politics in a city plays a key role in kenyas politics which are often contested on tribal lines census includes a question on peoples ethnicity so the results will show which ethnic groups have grown larger which are smaller and politicians will be paying close attention to those numbers so that they can work out which i think groups they will aim to call for votes in Upcoming ElectionsRights Groups have expressed concerns that the census goes beyond its legal mandate of a simple anonymous account of the people in kenya plus some simple data about them its needed for policy making because the census also includes questions that identify people things such as national id numbers the Rights Groups say its problematic for the government to have a database of all the people in kenya including all of this information even the g. P. S. Of the home that they live in especially in the absence of Data Protection laws that stipulates how this data can be kept who can access it and what for they say theres a risk it could be misused for discrimination or for targeting people at a later stage. Theres no preexisting comprehensive list of every physical address millions of kenyans live in slums or informal settlements all shacks. The data collectors are sent to every single home to ask people questions on their doorstep with the still major challenges for example the millions of nomadic herders who often cross borders into neighboring countries the government hopes to collect all of the data by the end of august but it will take much longer to process it all kenyans will be waiting 3 months before they get the final result. As mark a mansion theres a history of controversy in kenya when it comes to census thats because kenyan politics are often contested along tribal lines and census data determines how state resources are allocated the 4 largest ethnic groups make up more than 60 percent of the population thats according to the last census a decade ago. Are concentrated in the countrys center and make up an estimated 22 percent of the population since independence from britain many have taken up prominent positions in government including president. The law here if they Group Account for 14 percent of the population they live in the west as a bloc the votes are much sought after by political candidates the 3rd Biggest Group is the law they make up 13 percent of the population and are concentrated in what was the neons a province in the west opposition leader. Is a member of the tribe. Indian accounts for 12 percent of the population and are found across the Rift Valley Region many have taken up key positions in the Government Ministry and state owned companies. Lets bring in our guest from the democrats. And Campaign Manager at the International KenyaJennifer Byrne journalist and publisher of africa briefing a panafrican magazine based in london patrick is writer and political analyst welcome to the program dimmest is there a general sentiment among can ears that this census in particular is about building more understanding of the demographics or theres a political agenda behind it. Judging from the secrecy that has surrounded the success aims for example. But i mean the statistics act that is the basis for the census was signed and amendments were same into law just 2 weeks of all. And certain questions that seem relevant for sensors that. Are asked during the during this exercise. So it seems like. There was more transparency in the whole process and which in which many kenyans would would so it would suggest that there could be some nefarious things going on. Jonathan why is this sense as divisive among the kenyans. Well the sun sauce is held in every in every country every 10 years i live in england and the census is held every every 10 years every 10 or so in this. Country like. Tribal and ethnic sensibilities are very very. High and i think nuff care or might be taken to our for 8 it is suspicions any. Yeah its a species on behalf of the people and. The government you know has suffered a lot of. Its attacks in recent times. Ok so in their governments as can set in questions i think its in lying and it would be need to do that to be able to identify you know who lives with you know who he said tracking and who he said for not as well and so forth but you know in the absence of adequate Data Protection i guess i did with england right and i can give my some attention from the start by me see if we dont know leaked out that information is protected by data i mean its i cant protect it to know for sure ok so the governments have a said i dont go back to house to a back door should have a bug on a very extensive known and all Public Information campaign right to search face the people us to why they need and or for such information to be provided and owen of course or titian should have been done by shouldnt have been done arbitrarily that is where i have a problem with the whole exercise i see but i think provided dates and sort of what again the government. Issues passports the government issues and i said your tickets so you dont have to ask being in an already has of course is to to indicate my my part number and provide my nationality number your regular said me so you should know all my details about audience details about i mean if this is an exercise to further build a relation between the government and the people many people are asking whats the point behind a census when in 1909 there was a crucial one but then the results were never made public it took people many many years for some of those details to trickle down in the in the media. Well 1st thing to remember that as mentioned the census is required by law every 10 years to be carved out. The important thing is also that the census information is really supposed to be simply for statistics and Research Purposes so that the government can formulate policy is can know how to unlock a locator sauces it is not necessary and in fact it is forbidden by law for the government to use this to directly identify people or to directly target individuals that is actually would be completely illegal by the statistics law that could be a must id mentioned before. I think its also important for us to recall that theres a context here that the government itself has in previous times collected peoples data and then utilize it for the proper sees that it has and it was not intended so for example in the run up 227000 elections when people being asked to register. To vote in citing cases that information was taken was combined with information a government already has about mobile phone users because it got to register your same kind of it and get one and then they use that to try and push up. Out. People registering for the vote. In particular regions where they wanted particular candidates to win you know and even in especially in the president ial election where they thought they had strongholds they tried and pushed to push up a turnout that you get a call from your local chief you know or your. I mean your local Government Official to tell you you know you have introduced you know go and do to vote go and do this but then you ask how did you know i have introduced. This is not data he was supposed to have how did you get my 4 number this is not information he was supposed to hop so given this context its quite worrying that now in the census where data supposed to be anonymised that government is insisting on collecting idea numbers where they can then pair up what you have said in the census with who you are as an individual and then who knows what theyre going to use that information for we have an election in 3 years time there again try and manipulate these data to try and affect the result of the election we dont know if that it is meant to be anonymous it should be anonymous from the beginning dont collect data thats going to identify people so in this case that is not necessarily the Kenyan National bureau of statistics has said it does not require this information so why theyre collecting it is quite a baathist in the mouth 3rd officer point dimmers so if youre the government no is faced with that with a balancing act the need to respect the terms of the statistics act that calls for the need to respect privacy and anonymity but at the same time the government says has the right to conduct the survey is the government willing or can it maintain and implement this census with respect in the start is this law. For the 1st time the census is being conducted in a digital manner. The previous census was paper based this time theyre using tablets that. Things like geotagging that with everyones house when the after after the answer the questions saw. The government 9 years to plan for this the Data Protection law is in parliament it is not being fast tracked so why are we collecting digital data private private citizens yet we do not have a Legal Framework to protect data about 3 months ago the government rolled up another program for unique identity i mean digital and i didnt of identification all this data was collected there was no there is no protection framework so it seems like there is no law theres no gentlemen we can this by the government to protect the rights of privacy to uphold the constitution which which means that right to privacy source so far the evidence is that the government is not willing. Despite all the assurances. Jonathan were talking about a country that was marred by violence to 1007 was a clear example of the violence that erupted in the country because of the hears differences over the Political Landscape when you conduct a survey or a census in a country like kenny Adult Children the risk of further stoking that sentiment there has prevailed in the past yes the thought risk i mean i recall the previous answer got so scared of the 1999 i mean it nearly sparked so violence and i recall the result of this a source where not even released so i mean the government should have learned lessons from more this and oh well what has this. Put a litter of violence in. A few years ago right so the question of thinking or diseased into consideration and not just why and if it was it 1st it needed to gather all this information what it had to do and like i said early on was to educate the public i mean it like you people forget that it hurt 9 yes and on to do this i suppose so between that from then until now it had all the time and i believe order of resources and the battery to educate the people says talk to people that the next Census Bureau will be different from the norm well be collecting this this or that data from you as sort of and also michaud to outweighed any doubts in the suspicious and or from the people from Human Society as much of it or may show that the Data Protection act before parliament that the nation about should have been passed by now that would have given. The people some confidence and again it would up a little if you feel sort of sufficient. And know that the government was trying to get that these are this a formation an off or put its can election for police and its can an election purposes ok though he said not that again thats in the interest or security. A michigan your own there would be just your attacks that occurred in kenya and other parts of the country Goodman Mistral these 2 got that used in order to be able to plant security which is to work yes but then on the other hand its an up or diagnosed rebel just police well if you feel truly if you suspicious at all and all of the half of the people. Patrick if the census is generally speaking about the need to. Point to that please please go ahead right 1st with regard to the man 999 census. Its only data about one question that was not released and that was the question around make up of ethnic groups so how or how many people that had in the 2009 census the same question was asked and that data was released and i think it with reference to 2000 and census their walk concerns prior to the census being carried out and asking that question given that we had just come out of postelection violence in 2008 that done might have sparked some. Concerns that on my sort of build up tensions that didnt happen with regard to terrorism and security again i really have to insist that the census data being collected is not to be used to target individuals you know it has to be anonymous by lloyd has to be anonymised so the idea that the government is collecting id numbers so that it can target you porn whether they be suspected terrorists or not is itself illegal you know that the i mean that would be an illegal one this is simply so that government can know how many people are inside but people are places for the purpose of our locating resources not for the purpose of enforcing the law against them and in fact the. Noyes clear that. The data cannot be used for any other purpose so they cannot shade or theyre not allowed to show for example with law enforcement. Forces or Security Forces theyre not allowed to and a lot of shit with prosecutorial forces you know so i think jonathan is wrong there you know there is no proof reason why at least in the context of the census why government should be allowed and should go out to be hoovering up data that can allow it to specifically target individual citizens. Gemmas when it comes to a government that has been saying that is being coming and attacks by armed groups therefore installed the new issue of the right for people to pass on information. Intelligence gathering to the government their massive surveillance platform that was put into place but then when you go to a a census why would you ask people questions that would raise no many suspicions among them. In fact when im most International Fast to raise the alarm about why you are asking for a passport and id numbers the government. Responded by saying that they wanted to know how many people have genuine. I. D. s of documentation however if you look at the start the sticks are that is totally what it is that is the amount beat of another department of registrations its not a mind it or they can a National Bureau of statistics saw from the what their suspicions are raised and you find that its it looks like the government has its own ideas on what it wants to do and it is not really perhaps following the law. We agree that kenya has a security challenges however the measures that we have taken already in terms of surveillance intelligence or all done within the law is enough. To do. Such as a journalist and this is a recurrent issue across africa i mean the the censuses and the key issue of the political ethnic and tribal divides African Union has established a vision to work 2030 away says that we need to have sensors to be able to make projections about the shifting demographics and what kind of resources we have to put in place but when you come and ask me and a quantised a question like about own ethnic affiliation. What kind of purpose is he going to say development in a country like kenya africa before our eyes on this question let me recently gave to the other guys response what that area what i said what i said and i just try to play the devils advocate and all with what ive said previously about it got information to fight. The french arizona and for screech of the country ill just play try to play the devils advocate but the other question look trouble is im annoyed and candaces exists in most countries but immoral in its intent its just more so in august and 0 and one in some countries that others are making any and. We have tribes about. 12 tribes in the country but its a guess or tribalism and ethnicity is taught as pronounced as it is in im sorry to see it in kenya right so i do not know how this problem of ethnicity attendances as sort of what. Could be tackled but. Sort of just believe im not an economist but for disallowed offical economics such as made to know how many people you know live in reeking one reeking to area b. Area see a right not to. Have the government and locate resources to these areas to restrict to venture a guess but invariably a good like i said any of them might did mr b. Public Information Campaign i see a question you know to try to to try and change the peoples mindset that look such stuff is being not for. Any differently or purpose right but to have the go bents you dont have a look at resources for example to have to go bent develop in another country effectively which sure how you start in reality more often than not in all of the. Use in our more concisely sinister done and or noble yeah patrick im going to be my question to patrick with we know how it works in in a country like kenya where a predominant ethnic group goes to an election than strikes an alliance with the king maker and come to power its been historic is there any concern that new findings in the new census that could change the demographics show new realities could upset the prevailing politica