A leader in jail and in the mint labeled as terrorists nigerias government bans the countrys main shia Muslim Organization and critics are drawing parallels with how boko haram was treated before it evolved into an armed group called the crackdown provoke a new conflict this is inside story. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Hello and welcome to the program im a fiend dennis now its been banned by nigerias government labeled a terrorist organization the Islamic Movement of nigeria the main shia muslim group there has had achieved mulcher this past few days leader abraham zagg zacky has been in jail for the past 4 years ever since 350 of his followers were killed in confrontations with the Security Forces in protests demanding his release last week at least 20 people were killed supporters say zigzag his health is failing and he needs medical care abroad a court is due to decide next week whether to free him or not observers say the government is handling this shia group in a similar way to by her arm its leader died in Police Custody 10 years ago and a decade of killings kidnappings and bombings has followed by lets me to bring him whos president of the media forum of the Islamic Movement in nigeria hes joining us now from kaduna in the northwest of the country thank you very much indeed for talking to us now your group has been branded as terrorists what do you propose to do. For now were considering the situation and possibly we are going to court to challenge that bundled up because we believe that runs contrary to the course of the provisions of nigeria namely that of freedom of Association Freedom of religion and freedom of expression but the government claims that you are violent as a group and that your protests are often unruly we are not violent anybody who knows the set and equipment and that the leadership of 66 that he knew that we have not been kind of in a city or told off. And even in the last peaceful protest protest we did it could you know in i would guess what he would do but he will claim that we carried it to us for less its no less the police and i mean thats going to. Sort of we can actually study and why do you think the the Security Force is generally responding in this way to your movements protests we believe probably they want to kill elida chick that they keep them but secondly they also want to create an incident she in the name of Islamic Movement what by no way out in this world is there any is i didnt see in the novel she. Dont subscribe to. Terrorism so the act trying to be had its usually the military to correct in inside and see groups from what the country did in but in lebanon i says to just. Said what would be the point of the the justification then. For the government to try to create what youre describing as another insurgency. You know instantly its a money goblin so to see the trick to the military you know the military is very corrupt even recently there was in djibouti what i. Did after it came to light that it 1000000000 there are has been found in his position and that is why they are trying to create another incident is what happens i dont see how to go out billions of dollars and the actor not satisfied. Plan to run it just went like i was to turn it into an insider secret what do you say to those people who will kill your organization of thing. Said no being inspired by the thing led. By iran no we are not to let you back you know what i can categorically say is that we share the same islamic ideology that of shia islam and it will in the movement is not fully vishy as that and the movement that has witnessed in fact we have sympathizers almost across the divide in nigeria they are some of us in the south is so in the. Hours with and most of them in the northern part of the country so we have been led by and we believe is just we just like this in this and who are illegal who has been sympathizers of the area. And there is so just to clarify then you know next move is to challenge this designation hannity by the government through the courts the using the judicial process. Yes we would like to exclude because we believe we look to our east and we live like the terrorists. This is where you have to look for us and we exploit it to the fullest but really Ibrahim Mousawi thank you very much indeed for taking the time to talk to us thank you. Writer lets introduce our panel now joining us from cambridge in england we have matthew page and the safety at fellow with the Africa Program at the International AffairsInstitute Chatham House in nigerias capital abuja we have and yet a Nigeria Research with the International OrganizationHuman Rights Watch and in the english city of york we have in the delhi a dead edgy a researcher at the university of york thank you very much indeed for joining us can i start with you please and yet in a blue jersey you represent Human Rights Watch and you not at all impressed are you by the governments decision to ban the i. M. F. And this sheer organization of nigeria. Thank you very much for having me i think that theres been many reactions to the decision which came on july 26th on plastic friday and the one thing that were taking away from it is just the trap that it causes to a group of people who have fundamentally guaranteed rights to practice their religion to associate with one another and to express themselves freely now we understand that the authorities as the main government that is charged with protecting law and order in society was do its best within the confines of law to ensure that there is peace and security but we find that this move by the authorities this judgment this wide sweeping judgment by the courts goes beyond that it does not prevent legitimate business on which a group or religious movement such as the i am and can be banned especially because many of your allegations and based on criminality by members of the group which you know their position in our laws there are provisions in our statutes for the authorities to take on if such allegations were found true and matthew in cambridge do you think that the government is circumventing if you like certain procedures which in a rules based and a Legal Environment should be observed before such an action is taken like banning a religious group. Definitely but nigeria has has long taken this approach to elements in its society that that are troublesome for the government or that. That that cause unrest and use a heavy hand and often commit gross violations of human rights in trying to control them so in a way the mentality of the nigerian state in terms of its own internal security is very much a a mindset reminiscent of nigeria under military rule so before the 1999 return to democracy course we have a president now who who is a former military ruler and has that mindset absolutely and coming to you in new york i mean youve done Extensive Research havent you own the. Movement and the phases through which it went a you seeing these parallels in terms of the way at the bull hari government is handling the men compared with a book around in the early days weve already outlined the possibility of of the movements leader being detained and possibly dying as happened with the her own thank you i think i think in terms of the extrajudicial measures being taken by the Nigerian Government and its Security Forces against movements that choose to express their. Very right to dissent against the government yes i do see the comparisons with the compare the comparisons. Can be made but then i also think that its unfair to compare the iron man to the work around sect which i think is an easy and easy and easy and easy. Position that time that many make when they when they think about i remember when they talk about the ira men the ira men i dont believe. It is a Violent Movement its a Troublesome Movement for lack of better for lack of better white and it is one of docs movements but i dont seem to be exactly like the book around sect right and matthew is the i mens nuisance value is it just a matter of the fact that it represents a much smaller branch of islam against the most dominant sunday brunch which of course is is followed by a good 40 to 50 percent of nigerians countrywide well its an interesting question i mean i dont think this is just about islam i think that you know the this particular sect the i am man has a very strong president s presence and could do in a state which is. Run by a governor who is a key ally of the president and when he came in office in 2015. His followers were basically a thorn in the side of him and also many other what we would consider traditional northern power brokers people who in many ways a line behind hari and ensured his election in 2015 so to some extent this is about settling scores against someone whos been a political radical in nigeria for 3 decades and someone who sort of had had enjoyed thumbing his nose at a northern elite that very much feels that it has the right to. Predominate in the north and also in the country at large right and yet a i mean is it is it is simple to suggest that a movement such as the men develops traction if you like fundamentally as a consequence of failure of government to provide basic services to provide security to provide opportunities for the local community. Well i think that for a group like the i am and that is. That theyre theyve come together based on some of their fundamental ideology and you see that when you talk to members of the group they are very still in their believed and in their understanding of what their beliefs are and i think that is more around their understanding and their strong beliefs as she had with them and taken it as far as saying it is as a result of an lack of Government Services or government in many societies as is usually the case when discussing issues around the vehicle around an insurgency i havent seen that play out it is not the sense that ive gotten i think fundamentally people are allowed to come together in their beliefs and their and this 30th is to really push you know whatever understanding of the ideology that they have and this is what weve seen play out with the iran right and if any so is it a question then of. The government all the authorities all the all the elites if you like playing fast and loose with the judicial process as i understand it there is a court order in existence for the release of mr zacky which apparently is just being ignored which is oversee adding much more lets move in if you like to his supporters in the determination to come out in protest for his release absolutely and just according what must he said you know we have a government that pretends to be one that performs the be in the. Democratic but then when it comes down to be in those who are the rules 100 done by the by the by the courts it is just using leaflets and and for about 4 years now in front of the. Allowed. Said this man. Is suffering from from Failing Health and can be released and should be released on bail and yet the Nigerian Government has refused. To allow for the release of the key for without any any any rational or just of or justifiable ethical reason for. For doing this and so i think yes. I mean what youre all saying matthew youre all agreeing that this is being mishandled in one way or another by the authorities matthew this could possibly come back to bite the government whoever happens to be in office could it couldnt it do you see that this could provoke perhaps another uprising a moment this uprising akin to what the country in the northeast is experiencing for the most part from book. Thats right and i think what nigerias Security Leaders sort of fail to understand is that their approach their sort of 4 centric approach to resolving these types of internal security threats whether it be something very very serious and sinister like the precursor to book or her war whether it be more of a nuisance threat that has the potential to turn very very nasty if mishandled is is not productive and so intell until this or mindset changes in terms of how the state tackles the internal security threats whatever they may be in nigeria then theyll continue to sort of fester and escalate and spin out of control and so really how the state handles these security threats is incredibly important and the approach needs to be more nuanced it needs to involve you know Socio EconomicDevelopment Touching on the the challenges the poverty challenges that you mentioned earlier it needs and more policing it cant just involve soldiers going in periodically and killing everyone when a situation gets out of control right and i mean in terms of these Security Forces responses to these protests that have been pretty sustained have they for the most of the past 4 years would you say that they have being. Overzealous would you say that theyve been heavy handed and obviously resulting in deaths what should happen there. Well weve seen that theyve certainly used Excessive Force in there clearly think the professions and protests of members of the group you mentioned in 2015 that over 300 members of the group were killed and this have continued theres been a violent response to timothy of the Group Whether in kudu now or here in the capital city of dujail. Just last year we saw at least 42 members of the group killed when the authorities opened gunfire against their process and now weve called for accountability for the deaths we hold for him to Security Forces to carry out you know investigations and hauled all air all members of their forces who have been found who used. Excessive force accountable but these calls have gone unheeded no been no indication that you authorities are going to respond in the way that they should but we rather think that you know the crackdown has continued and we continue to make the call and we continue to impress on the Government Order for them to understand that you know accountability is really one of the only things that will bring that this situation that theyre trying so hard to bring under under control really under control and. There are those suspicions even allegations the. Conflict of whatever degree between a shia group and a sunni majority could have echoes far beyond the borders of nigeria far beyond the borders of west africa and even have resonance in the middle east suggestions that iran backing the shias and saudi arabia backing the sunni population could be actually actively stoking this up is that is either a theory that you would subscribe to. Theory that. Ive ive heard myself but its one that i have at the moment id like to arm into deep before deciding whether or not i fully fully subscribe to to or not but so far what the evidence we have in ground sees as the is not true and theres nothing to show that there is an iranian back in. The movement. What we have seen so far is a Nigerian Government thats sure. High level of intolerance and hostility towards the shia muslims in Northern Nigeria particularly in the Islamic Movement of nigeria and exaggerates any any form of protest by this particular group or any form of any form of out of of of dissent or vocal vocal dissent against the government has been a sign of. Unity of trying to overthrow the of trying to cause you know overthrew the government or some sign of you know and rain inclusion or something of that sort and i think the concern of the conspiracy theories only up to give more more or fuel to the to the governments. Rationalization of its heavy handedness and its heavy handed tactics against against him right ok and matthew what do you think about that because of course mrs that that apparently was inspired by the 1990 round revolution and indeed spent time in iran where he where he converted to the sheer branch of islam i mean what do you think about the involvement. Yeah i agree with any broadly i think that you know this is a somewhat of a superficial. Connection that exists i mean certainly over the years iran had from from my understanding talking to who to people on the ground and could do and people who study the group indepth is that that the ties are fairly weak and involved small amounts of money that iran sent is a key that he centrally used to build what i would call all sort of a you know an oversized soup kitchen in a very poor neighborhood of of zaria in which he was able to build sort of a Grassroots Movement almost a a peasants revolt if you will against sort of the upper echelons of Northern Society and what weve seen is that real frustration boil over into into into you know open and tip of the towards the nigerian secular state and well of course i think you know when we talk about book around the i am in terms of groups and their beliefs and their and their activities i think its really apples and oranges where the similarity exists is the degree to which the approach of the nigerian state towards these groups has pushed them farther and farther towards the in the radical and violent direction and they. The men have said to us that theyre going to challenge this is going to be going to use all of their resources to try to take this through the coals through the judicial system system of nigeria do you think that theyre likely to receive a fair hearing do you think that theyre likely to be able to take get themselves taken off this this terrorist list well i do hope that the authorities afford them a child so i think their case get a fair hearing they they have a right to a fair hearing and they deserve to be aired i mean the quite other that was granted it was based on an app