Then coming up though a daily look behind the days headlines in inside story which starts now. The taxi in question in israel for the holiest in christianity of the church of the holy city. Has close stalls is a tax dispute the reason for the own most precedents of protest or is it because the christian presence in the holy city is and this is inside a story. About welcome to the program churches in his where have long been exempt from paying taxes but the proposed lol may soon scrap sentrys of president the whole interest of faces bank tens of millions of dollars in back taxes its one of the worlds most visited religious places considered by many questions to be jesus christ was crucified buried and then resurrected the chest closed its doors indefinitely on sunday in protest and what religious leaders describe as an attempt to weaken christians in jerusalem how to force it has more. So for a third day now the door to the church of the holy several remains shut people many of them from around the world who come to visit the site to pray at the site of the best they can do is pray at the door take pictures at the door because this is a pretty historic event its a very rare move for the free patriarchates the three churches which jointly run this holy site and theyve taken in opposition to two things firstly the move by jerusalems municipality to claim what it says are one hundred eighty six Million Dollars worth of back taxes owed by a particular the Greek Orthodox church on its commercial properties which it owns in around jerusalem the matter of jerusalem is saying that they owe taxes like everybody else if they have a problem they should turn to the courts the churches themselves are saying this is discriminatory abuses against christians in the holy land theyre also protesting against a proposed piece of legislation which would allow the Israeli Government to seize land which the church had sold to private investors in the past they say the proponents of that law say that it is a way of trying to protect the rights of people who have apartments and houses on that land whose futures are thrown into some confusion by this again the church is saying that this is a way of discriminating against them it would devalue the land that they own in and around jerusalem more generally so for now this standoff continues and this hugely important holy site remains closed. The church was built in the fourth century in the christian quarter of jerusalems old city it attracts thousands of pilgrims because its believed to contain the two holiest sites in christianity where jesus christ was crucified and resurrected one thousand sentry france surrounds the tome with an audience shaved dome greek off a ducks armenian and drawing catholics share custody of the church the so cold status quo that defines ownership of the holy sites was agreed hundreds of years ago by the ottomans the churches gatekeeper for the last eight hundred years is a member of a muslim family it is not the first time the supercar has closed its doors for political reasons its large wooden doors were shut for the day twenty eight years ago in protest of jewish settlers nearby lets go to our guests joining us in jerusalem footage of run Legal Adviser to the Roman Catholic church is a student of holy sites in them bosch in the netherlands Frank Bossman associate professor a two book school of theology also in do islam by Skype Alan Baker director of the institute for contemporary affairs the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs welcome to you all or years of the program let me start by asking mr footage of this closing the Holiest Church for christians is it a symbolic gesture or are we going to see more steps in the near future. Well it was a force just church of the heads of churches being gay under the pressure of the recent. Activities of the Civil Authority is a by way of the advancement of the legislation concerning the church lands in jerusalem ordered by a new way of the actions of their municipality of jitters and then the heads of churches in funk found themselves. In front of a new reality where the mission of the church in the holy land is being handled is being threatened. And so they had to send a symbolic message a message of protest to those who would like to hear so that by the background for the decision mr baker the reaction from the Church Leaders in jerusalem do you see it as a genuine outcry against what they described to be an attempt by the israelis to undermine the presence of the christians in jerusalem or do you see it more of a politically motivated move you know its not an outcry against any any attempt by israel to to prejudice the status of the christians in jerusalem or in israel this is a dispute on taxation and property and nothing more and nothing less and so. If its a problem then it can be solved by going to court or by litigation and not by a political demonstration which harms the. Freedom of worship by christians which is an international internationally acknowledged freedom mr bossman as an associate associate professor of theology would like some perspective here before we get into the details should churches be taxed or remain tax exempt. Well i can say from the north european situation of the majority of countries its quite common for the church you know religious organizations or movements to pay taxes and to be taxed as all other published organizations are there are a few exceptions of course when it comes to deep for more states churches like the protestant churches in and denmark open or in germany but take it on the whole the religious organizations are text just like of the other organizations on. The Legal Advisers of the Roman Catholic church has custody of all these sites were talking about two Different Things here they start with the first issue which is basically the is the minister polity. Working to was imposing any collecting property tax for the unknown or on church own property is that not used as houses of worship one might say oh might wonder whats wrong with this because the church has run companies that generates gas and therefore they need to be taxed. Well the church has never presume pretended to have exemption for exemption from taxes or not to pay taxes or to be treated differently from others however according to israeli law its according to legislation valid in this a piece of land for centuries institutions and religious institutions enjoyed certain exemptions from taxes mainly due to the fact that these institutions carried out a chatted a bit and social a mission in the country through hospitals schools hospices houses for the elderly sometimes substituting for the role of the state itself or for the government itself im not talking about the government of his right im not talking about any specific government talking about the time being so the churches have acquired throughout the centuries certain exemptions they mused about it of today jerusalem is speaking about commercial a commercial activities they fact is that the announcements of the notifications that got to the church as recently a word in the church as learned about them from the press first of all we on the thirty first of a of january we woke up to and it is a news article a news item which actually broke this that a school that has been respected for the last fifty or seventy years a saying that we are starting to collect debts. And now without defining without specifying without explaining the reason for this sudden change in the in the policy so we are not talking about creating a new legal regime in there in jerusalem but on the fact that there is an existing respected boy both by the ottomans ok by the british mandate by the jordanian rule in the part of jerusalem and then by the state of israel and give the thirty first the fed day of january mr baker how can we can side between what the question. Church leaders say is the need to maintain the status quo because the churches play other roles that theyre bunch of charities and therefore the taxes are imposed on. Them some of that work could be undermined and the fact that the municipality saying we need cash we need to run the miss a policy of zero sum game and therefore the only way to do it because were not getting money from the government were going with going to tax churches well look in the same way that any hotel or any business or any a restaurant or coffee has to pay. Taxes everywhere in the world the same with respect to the churches they they own property they use as hotels they charge for staying in these hotels they they run businesses that earn profits that. Should be taxed now ive got no argument with ms that you run about the fact that for the last fifty seventy years theres been established a sort of status quo in which the israeli authorities refrain from demanding this tax despite the fact that its perfectly legitimate and here he has a serious case because. The fact is that these taxes werent exacted so i think if he has a serious case and if he chooses to take this to an Israeli Court into question the new policy of the municipality i think this is what he should do have it dealt with by judges mr bussmann i mean this has always been a sensitive issue imposing taxes on. Religious establishments but in a place like there were selim the. Why you have three monotheistic religions. Trying to cook coexist against the backdrop of a very difficult. Political landscape landscape do you think that this decision by the israeli minister by the municipality of jerusalem is why decision or do you think that it could create further problems in the future. Well i think youre going to say that the situation in jerusalem is fairy very difficult exactly because the three volunteers the grid is trying to go exist with the other none of the problems we have in recent or more a more storm a couple of times i think everything should be done to maintain the peace of the coexistence between religious groups and if there is a in if texas should be should be if the churches are ones to have texas in the near future that it should be arranged in direct dialogue with the churches and find out perhaps some different commodities in which sugar thing could be could be worked out for example in the north European Countries the churches are taxed by the government but if the population people give money to the church to other religious organizations they can they can think and. Have set up from there from their own taxes they have to pay show the gifts are exempt from texas maybe should things could be arranged in jerusalem about sort of you know one hand you can have incomes to suit your viewers or them should have the other science make sure that the difficult and delicate position of the church and it. Can be maintained just as youve run the controversies about two legislations they are no not on the. Properties that have nothing to do with houses of worship and also the new legislation which has been presented by rachel as area about the expropriation of lands sold by churches to investors and this raises a problem which is basically they just lasers in israel are saying that we cannot allow this to continue because we need to step in to protect the owners and we need to get more clarity from the landlords about whether they were they are going to. Renew the lease says thats whats cost and we need to protect people ultimately this explains why i would like to explore explore play it lands. Well a thank you for the question with your permission i would like to follow up a bit is shortly on their on their marks affair professor baker regarding the their legal action under and regarding gay the taxation of restaurants and cafes and things like that a distinguished professor alan baker is nor was very well that day throughout the recent years this state of israel and the holy see have been negotiating an Agreement Regarding the fiscal matters the fave financial and the economic matters related to the Catholic Church im going to hear if heading to the Catholic Church to the Catholic Church including one of the items on the agenda is the day in the negotiations is the item of the of the on on of their property that is when we talk about the status quo in the agri mn signed between the holy sea and the state of israel in one thousand nine hundred three both parties and even without that agreement its a basic principle of International Relations that parties first of four should be a respect agreement and should negotiate negotiate in good faith so why the parties are negotiating on the issue exactly of how we define a commission met is a commission institution how we tax a hospital how we tax in a house for accepting the pilgrims who come to their hit on the jurors that are going to spend it in the jerusalem mayor and decide that ok im deviating from this say from this in these negotiations im not there regarding what the government is there is the wing and im taking my own action and im for it stopping to collect one important day one and another important issue is that then that if you cation we say we see it in the churches where if theyre not if occasions with that if they are attractive effect so hes changing the policy not from now on the minister but it is not changing the policy from now on shes changing it changing the policy for the last seven years they they are the debts that a request from the various churches for the last seven years i want you to now be fed into the issue go ahead go ahead yes yes. I want you to answer my question particularly about the expiration of learned that is sold by the churches to investors well the issue was the with the with this legislation is its nature and its in its character when out in arabic there is a proverb that is to say that they are the letter is obvious from its title the title of this law is church land church land law its a bet its them not they are not yet a law which means immediately that this law target a specific group of the population it targets lands of the church its thought of as property of the church even if its the wording of the law says that after its being sold and it gets a constitutionally protected right by the same constitutional is a lot of my state of the of the state of israel now the issue here is not not whats happening with the land is how did the legislator legislate or even proposed a bill that got is this name and has this that it is. Correct that its. Listen lets lets lets talk a little bit in detail about this particular issue and let me go back to mr baker mr baker the expropriation export creation bill was said to have been presented the moment it was revealed the big Greek Orthodox patriarch eight sold a land of the center of jerusalem where a thousand five hundred people live but they have absolutely no idea about who are the new land lords are they going to be near the leases for them and at what price and therefore there needs to be a new regulation the question here is the attention sounds on paper decent nice good for the benefit of people but can you not do it in a different way talk to the religious groups the churches think about a new framework put it together agree on it and move forward. Well our. Look these issues this that these property no longer belongs to the church or that the church some of that. And therefore its been transferred to the ownership over private companies. Who are beginning to raise their rents in a very dramatic way and so this whole legislation is intended to protect those. People who are renting the property thats being sold by the church its no longer Church Property its the problem is that it still enjoys some type of overt you know tax breaks because it was titled as Church Property but now that its no longer Church Property the owner of this legislation is merely to to prevent this type of thing happening in order to protect those who who are mostly of companies or Land Companies that intend to raise the rent in the regiment i think were in the basement were talking about an area that has a huge significance for muslims just questions where holy sites could be years a centers to build reconciliation between people what were seeing here is a potential for more instability and more violence what is the way out how do you see the best way out from this. Well i think that you know the way out is making a very clear distinction between those properties owned by the various churches in your own entity in jerusalem which are used for specific religious action activities and celebrations you on one hand and the other sign those properties that are build for a strictly commercial business and i think all parties should. Agree with one another that those are two quite different ways on how to use a property and think those two specific different way of using property should be taxed in quite a different way in the end and the ending for what is of course always as we have learned in Northern Europe using boats called the airline learned the model of the rhineland and thats all the partners should negotiate with one another until an agreement is reached in which all parties agree on which all parties do some some water in the wind if thats enough fresh and also in english. Only way for an expression in a search and difficult political situation as in jerusalem every treat should be considered highly before actually doing it says of and you feel like youre paying the price just because you happen to be caught in the middle of a feud between the mayor of jerusalem nearby cat and finance minister moshe callan because bucket says i need to cast shadows says i have no gas to give and therefore theyre using this in particular to try to raise more pressure purcel the government to give them cash. I wouldnt like to go into political into predictions of whats going on in the juries in a municipality and its considerations white that one thing i can say and they would like to say the churches do not want to be neither a victim not a tool in the hands of anybody to campaign in a photo for his purposes i cannot then even today there that issue of fair they considerations a failure of that but it got me that its the business of faith of the church as