Meet again next monday balis International Airport has now reopened as ash from a rumbling volcano has shifted away tens of thousands of tourists were stranded on the indonesian Resort Island where russians have kept the airport shut for nearly three days does the headlines youre out today were back with more after inside story. With. With. Over an. Idea rabia the government. Accused of failing to follow proper procedures. Regulated and. This is a story. With with. With. I know theyre in a while come to the program. And he is in greece on demanding about a seventy nine Million Dollars deal with saudi arabia thats now on hold. New democracy posse accuses defense missile. Of illegally employing a middleman to negotiate with the saudis and the saudi agreement. That Civil Servants handle the terms of contracts not government ministers. Denies any wrongdoing but it is viewed as a potential threat to the left wing government headed by Prime Minister alexis tsipras. Thats going out straight to our guests and joining us from athens we have gabrielle secular regis he is the director of Amnesty International greece and london under smith spokesman for campaign against arms trade and is socalled via skype he devised mn hes a Senior Research on arms a military Expenditure Program at the International PeaceResearch Institute great to have you all with us cable first of all just provides a little bit of context here why is this deal in greece potentially with saudi arabia so controversial. It has been controversial for various reasons as you have already mentioned one of the reasons is that there are some military sounds from the side of. The opposition that there is some kind of economic scandal and just as there was a big debate in the Greek Parliament a concern in this issue. I cannot comment. Of the economic scandal im not jealous to do that however i would like to comment on another aspect of the sale of weapons to saudi arabia which is the main reason that im not international has published. A press release and asking from the greek government to hold the sale of these weapons and this is the main aspect from our side of you the fact that this weapons. May be used. From i call it led by saudi arabia in. A strikes or in. Our image here man and this is for us something very important and for this reason we are asking from the government not to proceed being ve say lawful weapons to say would your ranbir and i actually respect the fact that this very specific government itself has already ratified the arms trade treaty in two thousand and sixteen in march two thousand and sixteen. With sexually demands requires from the government to. Conduct an assessment of whether the sale of. The sale of weapons in particular countries may be used in order to violate International Humanitarian law law and human rights so we get into more of the ethics of it peter i just want to. But you this question about greeces surplus weapons that its trying to get rid of it seems quite a strain scenario can you explain a little bit more about the situation there well it seems that greece has passed the quietest attention about of ammunition or its tanks look lead a have never used that of course is this kind of evolution has the best before date at a certain point its not as effective or it may actually not work at all anymore so that date is now approaching and clearly greece wants to get rid of these of these type of emanation and somehow or other have clearly down markets this International Lead and looked around if there was a client and it appears that saudi arabia has turned out to be interested in this kind of weapons that in itself is somewhat aunt because saudi arabia is a country which spends a very large amount of money on its military attack in the area and yes you dont buy that the most the newest equipment this time they have seem to have looked for work thats a cheaper weapons and we also know that they have done the same in neighboring countries neighboring to greece like that kariya or serbia and that raises a number of questions why saudi arabia would want to buy this kind of weapons ammunition at this point in time or can we look at that can we speculate as to why saudi might be buying this m. S. M. Thats very very close to its expired and relatively small number. Yeah i think that two options one is that saudi arabia. Really feels it needs to quickly replenish its stocks of ammunition it has used ammunition in yemen and maybe it it needs to just replenish that and be able to use it the other option however seems to be and is this particular you know also discussed where there were a similar kind of deals which countries like serbia big area that the weapons which are being acquired by saudi arabia and the cheap ones to cheap that are all the ones are potentially for actually giving away to for example the government in yemen and the control of how do you all maybe to for example is also being suggested to rebels in syria so there are lots of questions about that it doesnt really seem to make complete sense but a rich wealthy country like saudi arabia would need all second hand ammunition for itself. And do you be very familiar with gabriels argument then grace given they give kays very prolific sale of weapons and i mean yes and to saudi arabia you somewhat surprised to see grace getting in on the action here im certainly not surprised by the opposition weve seen because i think thats part of a much Bigger Picture of own for world where there has been far Stronger Political opposition to arm sales to say do be aware about its been in the u. K. Where its been and germany canada or of the u. S. Are no increase so im not surprised by the scale of opposition to talk and terms of the greek governments position on it. I expect that the greek government is trying to increase the arms exports its making and part of that will be about building the arms straight and getting a larger slice of it for greece and for greek an industry however the greek government is one which does talk about imports of human rights and democracy they killer early and yet it is arming and supporting one of the most. Regimes in the world which does not believe in human rights does not believe in democracy and as we used a brutal bombardment against the people of yemen from most free years known as created one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world u. K. Arms have been central to that u. S. Arms have been central to the. Government as wanting to arm and support the exact same terrible devastating Bombing Campaign ok well you were formerly a spokesman for Prime Minister c. Press could you perhaps give us some insight into why hes doing this he is the leader of a very leftist policy is he happy is sending arms to saudi arabia. Yes. The main reason as it seems the greek government wants the. Weapons to mostly as it seems as it is claimed actually from the side of the greek government is mostly comic reasons for example the fact that. Greece as you may know of course its a. Crisis is a prolonged economy crisis and there is a lack of Economic Resources so. Take. My weapons that cannot be used for. The greek doesnt doesnt want to use them and in this way they can sell them to another country and make some money. In our point of us Amnesty International this argument is not appropriate one because you cannot. You cannot. Compare. Konami crowdsource with human lives and so if International Humanitarian law. And the arguments in the u. K. Is also an economic one isnt this i mean theres. Amount of money to be gained from these arms deals with saudi arabia well certainly with war and conflict there wouldnt be an arms industry if. The arms industry would probably be one of the first to go bankrupt so there is a lot of money involved in it and to the Arms Companies which are fueling the devastating bombing were seeing in yemen. Its not a humanitarian crisis to vent to them its a Business Opportunity so certainly has money to be made in it however we have to put this in context looking at the u. K. For example the arms industry for roughly zero point two percent of jobs in the economy over is a lot of money. To be made from the Arms Companies its actually a very small sector of the economy its a very small sector of the economy which employs some incredibly skilled people we want to see your skills being put to good use and often industries and more Productive Industries such as Green Technology such as of areas of engineering we want to see that happen in view came we want to see that happen in greece but it would seem that many people in the u. K. Not least the judiciary doesnt agree with the end n. D. The u. K. High court ruled just five months ago in favor of these arms sales or years in the we are in the process of appealing that there it we believe if out there it is up held when it will be regarded by green regarded by the government as a green light to continue arming and supporting some of the most brutal repressive regimes and what old and to continue feeling human rights abuses are in for world however people who we do know if you keep public agrees of us because poll after poll has shown that people for helming majority of people in beauty oppose arms exports not just a savior but tougher human rights abusing regimes fact most recent poll i saw which was done last month by opinion fine but only nine percent of the public think its acceptable to sell weapons to say duty there and yet despite that despite the overwhelming public opposition buke is sold five billion dollars worth of arms to this soviet regime since it began its middle compartment of yemen we want the u. K. Government to stand up for human race to stand up for democracy into endace toxic relationship with facilities you want to see the u. K. Make that change and we want to see other governments make that change to. The greek public against this deal because it does seem in greece especially the political debate it centered more on the use of this alleged middleman rather than the actual human alleged human rights or potential human rights abuses that come with the deal i believe that. The Public Opinion in greece has them on has now on being aware slowly but gradually be now were being aware of what is happening in yemen and this is something. Its very important for us. Even from this discussion about they cannot mix cant people in greece realize that what is happening now in yemen for me the very a. And optimistic scenario actually is that. Before a while actually one hour ago there is a there was. An from the side of the Parliamentary Committee for running on Armament Program programs and contract. There was a. Think of this committee and planned for next week i think. About this issue with the west the on how to say they say the sale of weapons to saudi arabia and this happened after the pressure that. Human rights organizations in greece and dumbest international in greece exercised to the members of the Greek Parliament and also on account of the fact that the greek Public Opinion is against this sale of weapons pizza do we have any evidence that saudi actually uses these foreign born weapons or arms in yemen. Saudi arabia together with some other countries in the region has started a full out military intervention in yemen that in the use of all types of arms ranging from combat aircraft. To Bombing Missions to. Forces on the ground to ships. Create a blockade. To yemen so it is to full spectrum weapons which is being employed exactly which weapons are being used whether those greek weapons if they can reach out to arabia would be used in yemen we would not be. Sure it may be at a certain point some evidence would come out but there have been several groups both n. G. O. S and also United Nations panel of experts who have persistently said that there are very clear indications this clear proof that the Saudi Armed Forces have used violence in yemen which is no longer in line with its International LawInternational Humanitarian law the law of war they have attacked civilian targets judy extended can no longer be explained as an accident or something which they hadnt foreseen it seems that either they are doing this on purpose all they are negligence and they have used force. In a way that that cannot be accepted that is widely. Said the problem is however that there is no and so International Governmental body you know International Court which has actually lets say proven this in a more official way ok yes we will get on to that in just a moment but first saudi arabia is not alone in seeking arms from seemingly unconnected nations israel hasnt divulge details of its ties to min miles government but israeli patrol boats guns and surveillance equipment was sold during the violent crackdown against the rich minority a un investigation revealed the Egyptian Government broke an International Arms embargo on north korea a north korean ship was found to be carrying thirty thousand rocket propelled grenades off the coast of egypt and Amnesty International reveal how a cell Company Registered in london sold at least forty six Million Dollars worth of arms to the south Sudanese Government in two thousand and fourteen and peter was just talking there about a framework to regulates the arms trade we do have the arms trade treaty that is supposed to stop arms from going to repressive regimes hows that working out. Well i think one of the problems of the arms trade treaty is actually a very weak piece of legislation it does have a lot of loopholes in it and none of the governments who have been from looting it which does include some of the largest arms exporting nations of the world none of them regard it as a curb on the ability to sell weapons feel view that as legitimizing the sales thats been already doing so i think the arms treaty certainly needs work done to it we want it to succeed but i dont think the problem is primarily a legislative one because we believe that in the u. K. When the u. K. Is selling arms to say duty but we believe it isnt violation of u. K. Arms export trade here we dont leave the problems legislative its about political will its about the fact that government after government of all political colors have been more than happy to peut arms exports in arms Company Profits ahead of human rights than it of democracy so we want to see a cultural change as we want to see a cultural change we do want to see stronger legislation internationally but we also want government to actually buy it by the legislation thats already in place to not just follow the letter of it but also a spirit of it because theres absolutely no model defense for these arms exports whatsoever gabriel doesnt the case in greece prove point exactly that theres very little political will to abide by these regulations because greece signed this arms trade treaty just last year. Yes of course the government actually rectify i think that ive already mentioned the red five arms trade treaty in march thirty first of. Two thousand and sixteen x. Its actually want to go in the house and go and it was this the same government the same government that has the power so actually the problem is that of course this treaty is a are not. Do not entail and the sanction for the country violates the treaties but of course from the moment that the government the canned food signs and ratifies the treaty when it has to respect what is included in the treaty and we believe that no not no assessment has been done from the side of the greek government of the the risks that the sale of weapons to the around the area and how this weapons can be used in yemen has been conducted and this is a very big problem actually and at least its a bit down there a Risk Assessment peter that brings me on to the e. U. Parliament its going to be debating an arms embargo isnt it and one does exist nonbinding the scene how well that goes will this new one potentially have morty. No there is very little chance that whatever you may suggest nobody has suggest when it comes to e. U. Arms embargo that that will actually lead to an agreement between the e. U. States to impose an arms embargo or even say significant restraints on arms exports to saudi arabia i find it very difficult to believe that in the light of what countries like france and the u. K. Particular but also many others with you have done over the years the fact that they know so well whats going on in saudi arabia that this this resolution which probably will be focused upon there and we did in the European Parliament on thursday will actually that and the resolution may come true but that the e. U. Council will not follow up on it as they have not on the last year i dont so i think that mr little reason to believe that we will see much change in the arms flows from e. U. Countries to saudi arabia with maybe a few exceptions them and why i get the economic argument but there is growing evidence that we cannot keep arming saudi because of the war in yemen and yet countries more countries that support greece today a coming on board to provide arms why is that. Has always carried a totally disproportionate voice in the corridors of power in the u. K. And i expect that is the same internationally as well this is a regime which does put an awful lot of time and effort into lobbying often governments and just put an awful lot of time and effort into trying to build relationships and increase its influence no question of it but ultimately i think that economics is going to be driving point for a lot of these governments and that is irrespective of the devastating humanitarian consequences and they have been truly devastating for will be people dying of color even during this broadcast the death toll were seeing from yemen is increasing every day and the situation is only getting worse and yet to be arms dealers as i said this is regarded as a Business Opportunity we sincerely hope that greece does not follow in the footsteps of the u. K. And other governments such as provided an uncritical political and military support so you do and not just in this conflict but for decades and decades. Do you think this deal will go ahead. From our side from the National Side in greece we will continue. Pressing the greek government to. Say were going to say. We are optimistic that this pressure will eventually and positive result and. Human rights conditions in yemen will be taken into consideration from the side of the greek government and. As i told you. Before a little why the next few days there will be a discuss your name of the mentor group that discusses the topics so we are optimistic that we will have a positive result from our side we will continue our campaign in greece and will be coordinated with the other and im with International Sanctions around the world in order to have a positive result football. It could result in greece because it just finally even if the u. S. And the e. U. Are banned if there is an arms embargo that countries abide by countries like saudi arabia are going to seek weapons anywhere there and there will always be a provider so at the end of the day does it matter. Of course it met matters even you saudi arabia could turn to china now or to rasho or to a whole range of other states to acquire arms that can get them from i did to you or from from from the us just having an arms embargo is a very very strong signal to any country that their military or political position is not accept it but what they do is no longer seen as acceptable for those states which imposed him by ago so its a clear signal it wont bring an end to a conflict but it is part of a larger process and i think its an important part andrew do you ever see the u. K. Changing its stance and preventing weapons from reaching its repressive areas we certainly hope so and we hope that when our case goes to appeal we hope that it does seti fatal precedent and doesnt the toxic military relationship between the u. K. And so to repeal and that the u. K. Can use its position internationally to call for human race and democracy in meaningful change in saudi arabia and and come to the devastating conflict in yemen we want to see that change we believe people in view came want to see that change than we believe people say to libya and yemen want to see a change ok there we will leave our very interesting discussion today thank you all for joining us gabrielle secular andrew smith and peter viles men. And thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by this thing our web site thats aljazeera dot com for further discussion to go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com for slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter on hundreds at a. J. Inside story from me laura carl and the whole team here by. You are making very pointed remarks where theyre on line the main u. S. 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