Which broke out over the weekend being fanned by strong winds from storm ophelia the state of emergency has been declared and those are the latest headlines here on out is there im back with an update in twenty five minutes the stream is next by. I am. Very ok and you are in the stream today whats it like to go undercover in the world of White Supremacy we have extraordinary stories of people who post as racists in an attempt to expose them. Hate is on the rise in twenty seventeen for the second year in a row the number of hate groups in the u. S. Rose and since nine hundred ninety nine the total number of hate groups there has more than double thats according to the Southern Poverty Law Center but antiracism activists say its not just the u. S. Where theyre seeing evidence of a growing Movement Across the western world so how are they tackling it for somebody else that is in full trade ssion going undercover as White Supremacists joining us now we have patrick have a certain he is a researcher for hope not hate thats an Anti Racism Group joe my whole is a Senior Research of the hope not hate fear wilson is a Community Organizer and mike german is a fellow at the Brennan Center for justice and a former f. B. I. Undercover an undercover agent to them its good to see you here you all have various different stories of how you in for treated the far right let me start with a documentary called a my year in khaki a star on undercover in the far right have a look. For the past year i have infiltrated outright in the u. K. And america. This is my story. I. Believe it was. Joe how to not have done before Fatima Abdullah what made you go undercover whats the premise what are you trying to do. You know i mean whats really central to what were trying to do undercover work is find out the bits that we cant find out from surface Level Research i mean you can find out so much from looking at what they publish what they are so quite often when we look at extreme foreign organizations the clear difference between what they say publicly in terms of what their front house images that they betrayed the world and what they say privately and how they organize so thats the first and then the second big movements like this ok all right we have to try and find out how they all could not be one step ahead to see how they operate and organize entirely and that allows us as ninety racist organization to come up with ways to tackle it and you cant talk what you dont understand is what central to understanding im just thinking about preparation because basically what were talking about here is posing as a racist patrick how did you get your mindset in that space where you could spend a year being racist. Well its quite surprising how apollo little you have to say. In places things you used to have to agree not to long and i focused most of what i said then i built my account at the iran criticism to that heat of the left and then feed off speech and that sort of thing so one of the racist things ive said over the last year close to nothing. And just take my clothes noting as you said you just have to know the long miami show everybody what you look like when youre going to cover looking at missions on the Pacific Northwest is you back here that idea of preparing yourself to go on to cover what did you have to did. Well i mean it took a lot of work because of course we werent just trying to get into the ideological side of the movement the organization rather we were focusing on gathering evidence of criminal acts so theres sort of pretty jhelum it within these groups that are involved in manufacturing illegal weapons manufacturing explosives things like that so it was a very specific subset of the group that we were trying to get into so it required a lot of investigative preparation and finding out who was was actually involved in criminal activities so that we could focus the operation around what they needed help with basic saw new c s twenty five three as who is a tell us about have. He says twenty five is just a character i created online as i was getting trolled i wanted to see if i could create the Echo Chamber Effect in my favor so a new online account was necessary with a brand new digital footprint so i could hopefully get to the root of the propaganda way and was spreading this movement so fast online and thats why i created the account so resetting the four hundred twenty fifteen earth a lot of. A lot of the black Life Movement was out there was a lot of courting and protesting for Racial Justice and they were doing what online it was making to be told so much i was just post my own videos i am a policeman telling the survivor i have also lost a friend at the hands of police and so in my own content i was attracting to say the dark side of the internet and i was i would trace some of these guys not figured out oh these are some shell accounts and so just this idea only said two can play that game and so i decided to just see what happened and yeah it was born from that when i was doing it i didnt think it was a big deal i dont even find it all that courageous turns out it was ideal logically courageous because i was jealous of myself but i didnt think it would turn into all this that it has become so yeah im going to be in the company that im in right now so over fat and happy comments he talking about your experience and i told you. How to look. At the think like years ago i would have needed like acting training and like make up in a fake id now i could just lurk. I thought it was a little info wars went on into some american renaissance National Vanguard alliance and you know i thought of comments and all of videos talking bad about al sharpton in black lives matter started be moaning race baiters like eric holder and barack obama. And just mirroring the antiblack sentiments that were thrown at me and to be honest it was kind of exhilarating. As in c s twenty five you owe a mechanic what does that person look like you know maybe i can what are you saying what are you doing but im trying to do was through some of the more intellectual arguments doubt and type blackness at these folks to see what else i could glean it was easy to be a hyperbolic troll and say outlandish things but i wanted to see if there was a strong ideological basis like and what i found was that well it seems to me that the right used the white victim narrative to date a brand new generation of guys who didnt really get the full historical knowledge of what race actually meant in this culture using the blowback from centuries of racism and freddy that blowback as oppression they were able to say well you guys are also victims here is a way out of that victimhood and so are a lot of guys without the knowledge of well for a lot of rebranded mind come five days it was interesting to see it spin out. Let me put this that thought that you know i mean actually its really really interesting what youre saying because its absolutely true i mean one of the key elements of the all right is this is they they cost themselves the White Identity Movement and its central to them is the notion of victimhood i mean its and this is across in lots of what she promises from foreign movements in western europe and north america this notion that seems paradoxical to most people but they genuinely believe that the most persecuted people are whites straight christian men and the way they see it is that was what i would argue kind of left wing cultural had tremendous notion you know equality civil rights gay rights womens rights and Political Correctness is oppressing them and they see this kind of leveling out of societies as them being persecuted so its up to absolutely right what hes saying those fundamental element of these foreign movements is this notion feeling oppressed. And i think that goes way back right i mean that the interesting thing i think that the most surprising thing to me when i first went into the neo Nazi Movement was how old these ideas are and you have to remember you know its only one hundred fifty years ago that we were fighting to outlaw slavery in this country its only sixty seventy years ago that. Theyre far right had control in europe so you know these ideas were around for a long time and the way it was framed that just in a way that justified slavery and colonialism was the concept of the white mans burden right it was this infringement on. White people that there were these other people out there that we had to go and police and take care of and administrate over them and that kind of thing so so these ideas have a long heritage going back hundreds of years Terry Mckinney solstice on twitter whats hard to understand about master race philosophy we saw it in nazi germany israel south Africa America its hardly miss it basically whats the point of going on the cover. Well i think what was interesting was it sprang up after it looked like we may a lot of progress i was doing this during the obama era and the idea of integration was if we get close to these folks we meaning black people and you see that were just as human issue then a lot of the lynch mob culture is going to be stopping us and you know Washington Post you never joins the data lynch mob never smote the body of somebody burning like you did in the fortys and fiftys and sixtys so how could this spring up again it wasnt about the idea in and of itself is how did it we just heard and i think that if we understand it from that perspective it is clear what we did what we did how dangerous was it for a whole war protests something that tended to be a racist. Its in many of these groups ive been in are not directly dangerous to me there i dont need to be and i. D. s are the interest of people of our us if im a white guy im not their primary target some of them and or a premier in the us and they are armed and they talk about what they want to do with the fascists with gay people as well in indoor situations i was i felt threatened of course but joe to your point has a level of revelation that comes from your work definitely going undercover and then patrick shooting it theres a little clip where a democrat greg johnson tell us who we ease you talk about what to do about the jewish problem which sends tindalls down my spine when i even hear that language but tell us about greg first of all. You know a good johnson is a kind of prominent now do classes all right figure its a long standing member of the american far right a prominent member of the american far right. Hes been around for a very very long time one of the things actually in terms of how markets infiltration of patrick captured was the first ever for two and first ever pictures of girl johnson and thats another example of why this will work can be will be used but we live in an age where because of the internet our activism has a lower social cost in some senses and did previously activists can sit in their bedroom in one place in the world and i can gauge in hate crimes online to people in other parts of the world they can gauge and follow activism so by infiltrating such a we find out who these people are we found or find out what theyre planning but things like greg johnson when patrick managed to get his picture it increases the social construct as well means that people start to realize that they might not be able to do this anonymously if they decide to make that move in tune you know engaging in acts of hatred online we will show it have a little look at what patrick shot on the cover is quite johnson. This is the. Truth because if one defines it as. The yanks. Are very few corporations in some sort of interest over in georgia the president putin will be there with you as we. Call the solution to the way a six. Year. Cynthia when joe was mentioned about people sitting in their bedroom. You talking about all right philosophy so you do you there are some some agreement that you know says that you recognize that. Well yeah i suppose what they call Something Like that that the cage effect when youre driving for example certain negative aspects of your personality get amplified because youre divorced from the consequences and of in a very real way youre surrounded by cage while believe thats even taken to a higher level on the internet and so the anonymity makes it so that you dont have to say you dont have to face the consequences if you say this to a guy you know say its pretty specific like a guy of my size in my face theres going to be a level of danger thats associated with it and a lot of times face to face they change their tune so yeah it is that cowardice and im going to call it what it is of not being able to back up these convictions face to face and now you can hide behind the internet people let me put fifteen this is from brandon com i got on twitter you know absolutely nothing from going on to come up at social media but i thank him on technology went through actual corporal oh all right some oxygen some are out to prove im to flourish i would say this what happened in charlottesville when they came out into the open was that they committed an act of murder right and i knew that this was coming i saw it as inevitable i posted a video called a warning to the all right message you let in too many crazes into your going to satan pretty soon something is going to happen when this manifests that they actually did do to this insane but i said that they had that they could just act this way did something to remove their moral high ground and create a backlash against them socially that theyre not going to recover from and so i believe that even if it is given them any bit of light its the kind of light that shines on something thats negative that we need to actually remove and i think a lot of the country c. N. N. Right now. Can i just quickly now to that point that i completely agree i mean i just agree with the question fundamentally i mean what we see depends on so far what movements dont exist alone whatsoever and we have to find a place where we come from big on the ground but certain for what movements online space is hugely important but we dont often have activists all the while it was in socalled law is punishment in almost movement is primarily an Online Movement and we have to be in those online spaces and so the work that people feel done getting into those spaces listen to music very important because otherwise they can go into these places for a long period of time on what im listening and engage in all sorts of horrible things and then well have a soon so i disagree actually i think it goes both require an online and offline world this is doing i call in and then i call mike says i think involved with the old right for a long time i can tell you that you know how i think it is im not well understood at something hes very comfortable saying this is who i am this is what i think mike i had. I was just going to go back to the last question where i think there is some therapy here criticism i dont think its necessary in the likable in patrick or the yes case but you know one thing that i would recommend to any Media Organization if youre doing overt interviews you know nobody makes these people the leader of a group its not like theres a democratic process and they vote and they just declare that they are but its too soon as a Mainstream Media outlet puts a microphone in front of them that makes them actually legitimate and and draws followers to them so you do have to be careful in our how you cover these groups and particularly when theyre covered in a way that brings their ideas into the means of mainstream political discourse you know i would defend their right to have their free speech but that doesnt mean we need to give them a platform. We have a bail hearing and i would add. Patrick i think that elevates that and actually use our challenging their ideas and where they work nice rather than just sensationalizing. Because this is some goodness so klux klan spirit im sure where we live on you tube right now actually bailey says do you think theres a way to improve our Education System to tackle far right ideologies should they be discussed rather than make not just. Yeah i mean theres a number of things we have to do i mean we have to be better teaching history i mean im not responsible historian but we have to teach the history of these movements we have to teach that logical conclusions all these prejudices when does politics theres a long track record theres a long history of what happens when we allow hateful ideas to go unchecked and it results in but it results in gas chambers. And we have to teach children we have to educate children about the history of what these things do. There is also i mean yes its not about necessarily just shutting everything down i mean we have to challenge kids will come into schools and classrooms and prejudices and everyone has a limits of prejudice within them and we have to challenge those men to discuss those so you know i mean i dont think just shouting racist awaiting flags is going to be a knock on in some sense we will have to engage people articulate theisms urns in ways that we disagree with and in most people we need to engage with i guess the key is engaging with normal people that might have views we disagree with and doing more Robust Research and get something to come but when i say sions and activist individuals that are propagating these ideas. There was a lot that we learned from your text talk im going to get people just go look at it go watch it but rocks other rahman here says did you find any of the people that you engage with to be able to be fine people will fine people nice people different beliefs you know. Fine people are nice people are two Different Things i said i think you should people who are very kind doesnt mean their ideologies are destructive heres what i think is most salient about this huge robbery has taken place of the white children of not only america but of the world and that is that youve been handed this shining empire and nobody really told you the details of how this impiety was built nobody told you the true number of bodies that are lying beneath this empire and its like