States, but i i know that there are a number of people in moscow, including experts and journalists , who think that this war over ukraine will end, and it will be possible to return again to those relations with the west that existed before, and which, well, if you want, this globally minded public, these relations turned out to be extremely desirable and beneficial, but i dont have the feeling that. The states will be ready to return to this kind of relationship, provided that this requires respect for russia, recognition of russian sovereignty, taking into account Russian Security interests, or i too pessimistic . I think you are absolutely right, i think that here we need to look at how the United States is currently working with china, i think that it will be. Similar tracing, when a certain country or a certain state shows its position and unwillingness to compromise at certain points and negotiation rooms, and the United States understands this, how necessary it is to somehow negotiate, but naturally, there is no love like there was in ninetyone, these hopes for what we have now. There will be such an absolute idyll, i think that this is still excluded, but i think that the parties will find common, and common topics for interaction, there, for example, nuclear deterrence, yes, right now rebkov spoke about that that there have been proposals to resume negotiations on strategic, strategic weapons, but i think that the countries will cooperate on intelligence, yes, some i dont know, terrorists, but countering terrorism, but helping citizens, countering drug trafficking, these are the general topics in which there is unity , of course, they will probably be again on the table and people and diplomats on both sides will talk about it, but expect that our sanctions will be lifted, remember how the venik amendment was canceled, yes, still in some countries cis, this amendment exists, they suffer from it, so normalization, i think that if it happens, it will probably not happen for decades right away. Ekaterina, thank you very much, as always, interesting, informative, although not as optimistic as many of us would like. Thank you, it was a great game, well see you next week. Hello, this is the schrodingers cat podcast, and i am its host, grigory tarasevich, editorinchief of the Popular Science magazine schrodingers cat. And we just talk about complex scientific things, on the other hand, we talk scientifically about very simple things. And today we will talk about such a seemingly simple thing as plastic, it is everywhere , in furniture, in bags, in packaging, everywhere, but is it safe, is it good, or vice versa, is it so scary . We are two guests, one guest is the artist, julia che, hello. Hello, another guest of the crane academy, alexey removich khakhlov, head of the Moscow State University department, a scientist who works, among other things, with polymers and knows well about plastic from the inside at the molecular level. Hello, hello, and my first this question is a bit philosophical. Is plastic good or bad . Here is alexey ramogovich. Plastic, of course, is good; the polymer industry has begun to develop approximately. 100 years ago, over these 100 years, the objects surrounding us have changed beyond recognition, if before it was all mostly wood, well, some metals and so on, now almost most of the objects that surround us are made of polymer, plastic or rubber, well, in general, these are also polymer products, and of course, modern life cannot imagine without plastic products, so its good. But there is a threat from plastic, there is a threat, because the threat is connected with the fact that over these 100 years the polymer industry has developed so quickly that corresponding waste also arises, plastic, ordinary polyethylene, polypropylene, these are ordinary plastics, they are very slow decompose, so there are really garbage islands, even islands in the ocean, which many people talk about, and this is a really big problem, because pollution occurs, including including pollution of the aquatic environment, and of course, this is a problem in this sense, and it needs to be addressed. Before i ask yulias question , i want to draw your attention to these art objects that you probably see on the screen now, they were created by yulia, who created from plastic, which we, alas, are accustomed to throwing away, yulia, you create your works from plastic, how do you feel about plastic, does it not seem somehow hostile, lifeless to you, no, of course, i adore plastic, this is my favorite material, i adore , he is subject to me, and the last 6 years, it is i who prioritize working with plastic; in fact, since 2013, i have been closely involved in design based on the upsell principle. This is the reuse of old things, originally it was old jewelry, old clothes, even dishes that were already out of order, i created clothes, accessories, art objects from these things, and one day, accordingly, my friend is a photographer who is not indifferent to Environmental Issues , asks. Me julia, would you like to make clothes and hats from plastic, from used goods . Exactly from garbage, from garbage, yes, its just that this word garbage is a little scary for me, so i prefer used plastic, she says and we can subsequently organize a filming on the topic of ecology, so that the viewer will Pay Attention to the problem of sorting Plastic Waste. So i thought and decided, why not, since then, of course, i made clothes and accessories, we did more than one shoot, and in the process i realized, yes, this is such an interesting material that it is within my control, just i now get great pleasure, for me even my friends are already interested, friends, girlfriends, some acquaintances are already taking away a train of plastic as they accumulate and hand it over to me, i have a question now for both of you , look, while i was walking, i found several plastic bags in my pocket, yeah , those classic plastic bags, probably yes, the industry produces millions, billions of them, well, ill put something in them, maybe i ll buy something, put it in it or use it for garbage, and what will be their fate . . What will happen to him whats going on with this bag . Most likely, this bag will end up in a landfill, what should the landfill do . Nothing, it needs to be buried in the ground, so to speak, and it will gradually decompose , in principle, despite the fact that the decomposition time is very long, but nevertheless it exists, of course, well, it will gradually become crushed, less and less and less, some of these particles will be washed out into rivers by underground waters , then it will be. The ocean, this is really true, how many years will it take, these are hundreds of years, hundreds years, that is, we have not yet realized, that is, since the polymer industry began to develop 100 years ago, we have not yet realized, so to speak, the full scale of the problems, that is, in 500 years this bag will end up in the pacific ocean, well, in part , yes, yes, yes, particles from this bag, some will end up, well, in a quiet place, well, in some kind , gradually it will spread across all the oceans, after all, it can be recycled somehow, recycled in order to reuse it, well polyethylene does not lend itself very well to such processing, but there lets say polyethylene terephtholate, from which plastic bottles are made, as they call it, it is quite recyclable, well, it can be recycled up to ten times, thats why. Even in moscow there are special containers where these bottles can be put and so polytape reftholate can be recycled, and there is no problem here if i am carrying a bottle, or i need to tear off the label, wash it off the glue, well, it is advisable, so to speak, to remove the cap, because the cap is made of polyethylene, and that is, these are different substances yes, that is why they collect the bottles separately, separate the skins, but this is done there, even if you just throw it away. This will already be done at the factory where they produce secondary polytiltolate, and this is a valuable raw material, because polytiltolate can be recycled many times, in general, in principle, the polymer is a valuable energy raw material, among other things, so there are waste incineration plants that produce electricity as a result burning Plastic Waste, and now there are catalysts that, well, practically lead. To the fact that the environment is not polluted, that is, in reality , look, the situation is such, the life cycle of a polymer material, any such that it will ultimately end up either in a landfill, or it will end up in a waste incineration plant, or, unfortunately, as is done in many countries, a truck will simply dump all the garbage into the ocean. Instead of putting it in a landfill, it is precisely because of this that such huge garbage islands arise in the ocean, all this recycling, Waste Sorting, it can only delay a little, and then, so to speak, in a limited quantity, the moment when the polymer ends up either in a landfill, or in an incinerator, or in the ocean, that is, if i throw it into a fire, it will not be very good, because there are a lot of. Harmful emissions even from a small bag, of course, of course, this must be done at a special waste incineration plant, where there are special catalysts. And now garbage plants in russia allow you to burn this bag, get energy and not pollute the air . Yes, of course, well, we purchased, there are quite a few waste factories in europe, in fact there are places next to waste factories, housing is more expensive because electricity is cheaper. Is supplied by burning waste, this Energy Supplies the surrounding houses, then until recently , say, the scandinavian countries simply bought Plastic Waste from russia, even there, yes, so, in principle, well, we built waste incineration plants that they work quite well, and dont throw anything into the air, well, they do, but a minimal amount, well, minimal how dangerous, not dangerous, no, well, im telling you, here in the center of vienna there is a waste incineration plant, well, no one is protesting, yulia, now i have a question for you , look, its an ordinary white bag, ill rustle a little so that the audience listeners could feel, here is a familiar sound, here it inspires you, as an artist, to do something, of course, it inspires, i cant say right away, here i see the package in your hands, i know what i will make of it, no, i have a completely different principle, i have several containers at home where i sort, for example, one container means bottles, the second container means bags, the third container means toys, and when i have a moment, lets say inspiration, i want to make something from what i have accumulated, i lay out these things, and in front of me i look at the bag with which it will go beautifully with some bottle there, yellow, blue , black, golden, then i already. Even i dont know what i will have, but in the process of collaging , some kind of silhouette, some kind of object is born, in fact, i need all this and it will come in handy later, that is, the package itself is not a symbol, rather in some context, yes, yes, rather, mankatcher whiskey, a product of the stellar group. You are watching the schrodingers cat podcast and today we are talking about plastic, everything seems wonderful, you can get energy, which is always in short supply, you can recycle it, you can create such beautiful art objects. Why are people so concerned about plastic, i read somewhere that they are even going to ban plastic bags, they have already banned somewhere. Than with Global Warming , there really is a problem, well, as for burning garbage this is, so to speak , well, a small share, after all, the bulk of the garbage ends up in a landfill, but why a small share if it is not so harmful and profitable, why be . Well, its still expensive, the catalysts are expensive, and the plants themselves are expensive, few countries can afford it, so to speak. Wellequipped landfills, but everyone can afford it, but nevertheless, most countries, mainly southeast asia, they just dump all the polymer waste into the ocean, and dont care, of course, its cheaper than making a landfill, then you have to reclaim this landfill, which means that a fertile layer appears on top of the already frozen landfill, so that there is grass , trees grew and so on. This requires costs, so to speak, thats why the problem with large waste is really important , and it really needs to be solved, but it needs to be solved not by banning the production of some kind of plastic there, reducing it, but by it is necessary to treat plastic correctly after its service life has expired, this is what now sometimes, lets say, the european one has recently adopted. Now in europe you cannot buy an ear stick made of plastic, it is now made of thick cardboard, i can tell you that it is much less convenient, it breaks, naturally, and the benefit of this is very small, just now recently , european. Accepted the new package, which means they banned the socalled intentionally added plastic, for some reason intentionally added plastic, from their point of view, is mainly added to cosmetics , there in womens, for example, glitter, for example, all glitter is already banned, plastic glitter, they say that now there was a very big boom in europe, because just a week ago. So before that, all the glitter was literally taken off the shelves, so to speak, you know, that means, and at the same time, i forgot how much, but they want to start saving in about 12 years, there, in my opinion, 40,000 tons per year, whereas, well, its easy to calculate that, say, simply due to the wear and tear of car tires, the annual, so to speak, formation of these microparticles of plastic is 6 million tons per year, but of course, no one can touch the automobile industry, so they decided to pay it back on cosmetics and childrens toys, and so so in general, in principle, i thought that as far as plastic is concerned, this is really a very important problem, it needs to be solved mainly due to the fact that. These uncontrolled discharges into the ocean, somehow prohibit it, but what concerns microplastics, now this a horror story that appears everywhere, microplastics, what a horror, i can tell you for sure that the harm from microplastics has not been proven at all, it is a polymer, it is quite inert, and most importantly, people say that we have evolved towards this are not adapted, because plastic began to develop only. 100 years ago , lets say, we lived with sand for millions of years, and so on, but at the same time they forget that there is no such plastic as such, pure, when it comes somewhere in the aquatic environment, it is covered with various surfactants substances, when this plastic enters the body, the body develops an immune response not to the core of this particle, but to these surfactants to which it is already accustomed, so most likely all this, so to speak, will pass through the digestive system and be excreted, and there are only isolated cases when. Lets say, these particles passed through the emissions of some chemical, say, plant with harmful substances, they absorbed these substances onto plastics, then were released in a cooperative way, say, in the stomach of a fish, this dangerous, indeed, but this needs to be investigated, and it is necessary to say indiscriminately that microplastic is harmful, that in no case should you take coffee to go, because, so to speak, it contains a huge amount of microplastic from the glass. So to speak, it will get in and so on, it will cause irreparable harm to your health, in general , i can authoritatively say that this is all nonsense, these are all Horror Stories that do not yet have a scientific basis, well, that is, if i put it in this bag bread, apple, this package will not emit anything harmful, nothing of course, it wont separate out anything harmful, another thing is that this is where Waste Sorting is good, in germany, so to speak, ive been to germany many times, and so to speak, i saw all this from my own experience, so its necessary to separate food, called biomul from, so to speak, this kind of garbage like plastic, thats why, because food, it decomposes much faster, its not hundreds of years, but then, well, in a few months everything will decompose for you, so this, so to speak, should go in a composter and, so to speak, decomposes very quickly, so. This is the separation of plastic from food, it is justified and of course it needs to be done, no , i mean, is it possible to eat bread after it has just been sitting, but bread can be eaten, but if i eat a small piece of the bag, it wont do anything, you can eat this thing is not tasty, but julia, the question is, are you afraid of plastic, well , many people advise, never store water in plastic bottles, because plastic releases a further list of substances, y. Do not put fruits in plastic bags, because ethylene is released , the fruit starts right away oppress, arent you afraid of plastic . No, gregory, im not afraid of plastic, the only thing is that i would nt heat something in a bag in the microwave, by the way, when heated , what happens in the microwave, for example, no, well, you just dont need to put it in a plastic bag, because it may melt, but if you have special dishes for microwaves. How do you feel about clothes made of polymers . I see you re probably wearing synthetic shoes, something plastic on your head, and youre not afraid, no, im not afraid, i love plastic, just i love many other materials, including building materials, they are much more harmful than plastic , what will happen to plastic, chemical. The reason for this is long chains, plastic consists of long polymer chains, they are not volatile, thats why ethylene from a plastic bag, it wont fly out, yulia, still come to you, i know that you have a whole manifesto about plastic as an object of art, if im not mistaken, my manifesto is simple, it sounds like this, you dont need to make garbage out of garbage , at the same time , artists like me, who. There shouldnt be a lot of plastic either, why . Well, imagine, lets say, i have 10 more of the same, there are 20, in one city, in another, they create such large installations and then exhibit them in the same art park, for example, the same as the museum, and yes, in every city there is a park and not just one, and imagine, in one park there are 10 sculptures, 20 made from garbage, in another park, there are even more, more, more of the same, from the outside, every city will seem like some kind of landfill, because even im like an artist when i take part in exhibitions, festivals , do performances, and the viewer is divided into two opinions those who, wow, this is so beautiful, this is so impressive, and those who say, well , its rubbish, its still. Rubbish, why, we dont need it, we dont like it, on the one hand, its as if theres no need to make garbage out of garbage, but my manifesto is also that. I want, of co