it does feel like all that has been done to this country has pushed them more and more as julia said towards the west, not towards russia, which is where trump seemed to want them to be, as well. what would a sort of western sort of european looking rather than russia looking ukraine mean for us, for our national security, for europe. what do you think the big picture for that is? that is probably the most important question to answer. what it means, what ukraine means to us and that s probably something that s not been sufficiently address. ukraine is holding a key interest to us certainly from a value perspective and a struggling democracy. more importantly from a geopolitical interest because ukraine could be the gravity that draws russia into a more normalized, more democratic sphere. if ukraine is prosperous and