on the other end of the spectrum, michael mcfaul says that to people should stop using the phrase, it s too hyperbolic. your thoughts on this, clint. it s been interesting to watch, particularly on what we re talking about what to do with putin, we jump to one poll or the other. jump in with a no-fly zone or it s gonna trigger world war iii, there s no middle ground between it. i disagree, i don t see anyone other than russia on russia side. it seems that china s really tilting or wobbling at this point to have a cold war, you really need multiple parties on two sides or more. so if you look back at world war i, world war ii, that s really what that was. separately, i think there is a stronger argument for a cold war. to me, that started the day edward snowden landed in moscow many years ago. and you ve seen the incremental approach where you ve had almost these proxy battles by putin advancing into many different countries, which she we ve chosen to pay attention to ukraine, we di
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we are not looking to create a short-term crisis. and i think the longer-term problem, as president biden has articulated on several occasions, is can the democracies of the world kind of prove that their model is more successful? and means a lot more than the model of a kind of declining russia and a rising but authoritarian china. and i think he can get people to buy into that. and i think one of the things that has really made a big difference, not just the issue of the treatment of the uyghurs or the future of hong kong. but over on the russia side, this hacking of, and frankly, this ransomware used against u.s. businesses. and, i know, today, it might be a u.s. business. tomorrow, it might be a european. so, i think, biden has a lot to work with. and frankly, all the good will that he s established just in the last couple of days. it s it it helps, in diplomacy. i mean, it helps when people kind of like you. and want to work with you. and then, you can kind of get your point a
to be made over there. the country has dealt with smouch corruption for so many years and so you have american lobbyists and former officials going back and forth. some working on the pro democracy side, some working on the pro russia side. so going after that pot of gold in ukraine has been quite a mission for a certain element of the political class in america that donald trump was supposedly going to drain. it is i guess also perhaps unsurprising considering the conversation we just had that ukrainians the leadership in ukraine, they ve already put out a statement pushing back on this idea that president trump was trying to pressure them or that there was any quid pro quo, in fact. thank you both, mara and elise. we want to dig more into what we know about this phone call with the ukrainian president. the call about 30 minutes in length, took place in the white house residence in july. we have the perfect guest to