in from the deep state also with secondhand info. the new york times reporting saturday the second official is a member of the intelligence community and has more direct information on trump s ukraine dealings. joining me now to discuss this is tom mueller, author of crisis of conscience. whistle-blowering in an age of fraud. thank you, jo. the second person does come forward, do you think that this was propelled specifically by the first whistle-blower here? very definitely. many of the stories i tell in my book, an initial person stepping forward gives permission to others to say yeah, i saw that same conduct. often, we see a group of people watching the same event unfold. many of them know, this is wrong. only one is willing to take the risk. once they do that, there are two camps, one that attacked them, retaliating against them and another that joins them and says