i m drawing a line between the suburbs. essentially what you re saying is everything north of white plains i m being a little facetious here, is upstate. is that the fairest description? we re not really giving a good geographic lesson when we say upstate, are we? i think it is a fair description. and what you said about the mumford center is also interesting. the traditional metro area doesn t include dutchess or orange in the mid hudson valley, so that s ten counties. i think people in the northern suburbs, in westchester and rockland, particularly, think of themselves as downstate not upstate. so i think mta region is a good proxy for what really is downstate new york. we hear about all of this, upstate, democratic politician wants to make sure how to figure