Rich, ruthless, and famous my guest is a new york institution, known for the buildings hes built, and the wives hes divorced. You dont want to cross him, though, because he likes getting even. And hes made it a rule that no one pushes him around ever. So how did he lose all his money, and then get it back again . Donald trump, a very warm welcome to the programme. You say you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs. That sounds like a very destructive business philosophy, is it . Well im not sure ive actually used those words. But generally, you have to shake things up pretty pretty much, in order to do something of consequence. And i have shaken things up, and ive had the best business years of my life, by far. How rough is business in new york . We hear a lot about, its the roughest, toughest, the most ruthless business in the world. Is it . Well i think the business in new york tends to be tougher, maybe, than in other places, but im not sure its true. The Real Estate Business in new york is an amazing business. Its a great business. And any time you have a great business, you always have competition. And you always, have, unfortunately, the smart and the tough people coming into it. Do you have to be a killer in business . I think you have to be smart in business. I dont think you have to be a killer, i think you have to be smart. Does that mean eyes in the back of your head, always looking to is going to get you, put a fast one on you . One of the things i say in the book, and i say very strongly, is you have to be paranoid. And the book is selling so well, and i guess people believe this. But there is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia. You watch, you can be a little bit careful, you watch whats happening behind your back. And i think thats probably very true in business. If youre paranoid, how much enjoyment is in that . How much time do you have were you can you actually sit back and say look what ive done, this is great . I think that there is great enjoyment. I think that paranoia cannot be carried to a life shattering crisis point. But i think its good to always know people are out there, and they are looking, and looking to throw you off your throne. But i think success brings great enjoyment, and certainly it has for me. Is it the competition that fires you up . Is it the money . What is it that gets you out of bed in the morning . What is it that drives you, here . I really think it is the artistic or the aesthetic. I love building great buildings. And the case most of my business is the building of things. I get great artistic pride out of a great building like trump tower, which is on 57th st and 5th ave, in new york, or Trump Internation Hotel in town, my new building on central park west. I get a great sense of artistic enjoyment at those buildings. What do you think of business business methods in the city . I mean, youve been in new yorker your whole life. What you think of the way people conduct business in the city. I dont think that new york is that much different from other places. What i do think is there is a Greater Energy new york. There is greater verve, or or a greater drive, maybe, in new york, than most other places. And really, than any other place i have seen. But i dont think that business itself is much different in new york than anywhere else. Greed, corruption, i mean, you say, its a Throwaway Line in the book, but you say greed is good. Well, i dont think that greed is good. As you know, they did them famous film with michael douglas, wall street, where greed is good. But that is not the case. I think greed is bad. I think you have to enjoy what youre doing. If you enjoy what youre doing, it will be successful, generally. If you dont enjoy what youre doing, it is almost never going be successful. Rich men are always targets. The richer you get, i suppose, the bigger the target that you present to people. How much does that worry you . Well i think that rich men, i guess, are always targets. Rich people are always targets. I think that theres a level of celebrity that i have obtained that its become so ridiculous, now, that makes me an even bigger target. So it always bothers me, but there is really not much i can do about that. Ridiculous in what way, the Celebrity Level . Well, its just become tough to go out. Its very tough to do things. Its tough to even go to a restaurant, in a sense, because its always shaking hands and signing autographs and things. And you know, it didnt used to be that way. That is a symbol of success, is it . Youre a victim of your success . It is, but its not a good symbol, necessarily. It causes lots of problems. Because you go out and you want to have dinner with a group of people, and it ends up being a big event, and there are people waiting at the entrance to the its just a very tough way to live a life, i find. You talk a lot in your book about getting even, the importance of getting even. Is revenge sweet . I believe strongly in getting even. If somebodys hurt you, if somebodys gone out of their way to hurt you, i think that if you have the opportunity, you should certainly go out of your way to hurt them. And ive had more criticism about that one statement in my book than any other statement. The clergy has called, the ministers, the priests, the rabbis, they have all said thats a terrible thing to say, that is against our teaching. Others believe that. I believe in an eye for an eye. If you did turn the other cheek, as the clergy is presumably suggesting to you, what would that do to your reputation in business circles, here in new york . I dont know what it would do to my reputation. I just dont believe in instinctively turning the other cheek. If somebody was out to hurt you, if they want to do a number on you, i really believe that you should just do a number on them, if you get the chance. Can you give me an example . Well, there were people that i really helped in business. When things were very good in the 1980s, and my company was going good. And they did not lift a finger to help me when i needed it. And there were a couple of them that could have very easily helped me. Now i have the opportunity to do a number on those people, and i will tell you, and having a lot of fun with the opportunity. Who are the movers and shakers in this society . We get the impression, in new york, that power is in the hands of a few very, very rich people, yourself included. Decisions in smoke filled rooms . Is that still the way business is conducted in the city . Well, i think new york is very much run politically. I think we have a mayor, named rudy giuliani, who has done an incredible job in new york. And just got re elected. And just been re elected by a huge margin. I guess the largest margin ever. He has been an incredible mayor, he has done an unbelievablejob he has just been great. And so it starts off with the mayor, the leadership, the politicians. We have other people within the business community, obviously, that are very important, and are a lot of them. But the citys just become very, very hot. And i think it is due to rudy, and lots people in business, that have done such a good job. When you say hot, more focused . Its really become focused. Its just a place where Everyone Wants to be. People want to come to new york. They love the city. They want to be here. They want the action. You know, new york has action. New york is unbelievable action. Everyone wants to be here. And i happen to be the biggest developer in new york. My company now has do much better than it ever did in the 1980s. What do you attribute that to . Well, i think one thing is perseverance. I mean, when things were tough at the beginning of the 90s, for me and every one else, the problem with me was i was getting all the publicity. The Great Depression, you call it, the 90s . I call it the Great Depression of the early 90s, because we were really in a real estate depression. And it was real estate in retailing and airlines, and various other businesses, they were in a total depression. They werent in a recession. And i survived, and most people didnt survive. I mean, a lot of my friends, a lot of good people and bad people had go bankrupt. And you never heard from them again, and you probably never will hear from them again. But you know, i survived to a point where the company is much bigger now than it ever was, and much stronger, financially, than it ever was. And i wrote a book about it. But in the early 90s, you faced the possibility of losing everything. In fact, on paper, you had lost pretty much everything. I had faced the possibility of losing everything. And it i went back to work, i focused. I focused my mental energies, and all of my energies. You never thought of giving up . No, i think one of the reasons why a really succeeded and bigger than even in the 80s is the fact that its a little word called perseverance. I didnt stop. Its a long word, actually. It is a long would come to think of it. I didnt stop. I did persevere. I went up against a lot of odds. I came up with a phrase, survive till 95. That was in the early 1990s. And it turned out to be right. Because the world changed, the economy changed, and there was a Survival Tactic until a certain year. And in 1995, things started changing. But i mean, it really started changing for me almost right at the beginning. I went back to work. I refocused my energies. How desperate were you at that time . How depressed did you get . To start off with, i really blamed myself a little bit, because ive always been able to pick markets. And i really wasnt focused was in the 80s. I was having too good of time, i was enjoying my life too much. Things were going too well. You dropped your guard . I did drop my guard. And it is no different from you if you do 15 great interviews, you know, on the 16th, you can take it easy because. That happens in life. Its a human trait. I did drop my guard. I put my guard back up and put my defences and offences more than i ever did in the 80s, and worked probably harder than i did in the 70s and 80s. And actually became much more successful. You had to believe in your own abilities. Wasnt there time where you thought i really cant hack it, i should get out of this, im not suited to this . There were some times. There was a pretty depressing times. Because i owed billions and billions of dollars. 975 million or so was personally guaranteed. And that is a pretty deep hole. And when youre that deep in debt, youre mired in debt, and youre that deep in debt, thats a pretty rough situation to be in. And the vultures circling around you . Well, you had plenty of vultures. You had plenty of bad people circling. And some good people, frankly, that wanted to get paid. But it was just, it was Hunker Down Time as they say in georgia. And i did do that. Did you learn some lessons about the people who were your friends and people who werent your friends . Painful lessons. I wrote once that i would love to, sort of, have a bad period, financially, just to see who my friends would be, and to my enemies would be. I will never write again, because it is not fun. It might be a self fulfilling prophecy . Well, thats a true. I never want to write it again. I have done that period, and in that time, i learnt a lot. I learnt a lot about myself. But i also learned that there was a very good friends out there for me, and then people who did not help. Tell me about the women in your life, because there seems a sense in which, you say in the book, you have measured women by your mother . Is that right . I have a wonderful mother, a great mother. I dont measure women by my mother, but i have a woman and my mother who is a terrific woman. And ive been married to two very nice women, but itjust didnt work out. And i think part of that, one of the negatives to success is that there are lots of obstacles thrown in your way in terms of relationship. First of all, time. But even your own mental psyche. I mean, my thing is, im thinking about deals, and im thinking about these great buildings all over, you know, that im doing, im building the largestjob ever approved by the new York City Planning Commission on the west side. You know, thats a thought process. Theres a lot of things that im doing and building. And think about that, maybe, as opposed to a relationship. And im not saying that in a positive way, im saying it almost in a negative way. Because its very negative in terms of relationship. And success may be great in terms of living and lifestyle, and Beautiful Homes and apartments, and boats, and planes, and all of this stuff that doesnt mean very but success is not necessarily very good for a relationship. Women are far stronger than men, you say do you really believe that . I believe that women are actually stronger than men. And actually say that they are not so much stronger, but i think they are more aggressive than men. And their sex drive makes us look like babies. I think that the womans sex drive is as as good or greater than a mans sex drive. Ive been witness to it, and perhaps you have, if youre lucky. But sex drive of women is extraordinary. And they like to portray themselves as the weaker sex, but the weaker sex doesnt exist, believe me. I think they probably, theyre certainly the more aggressive sex. And even in business, ive found that some women are just more aggressive. And i dont exactly know why. And i say this with respect, i dont say this was scorn, with anything else. I say this out of respect. But i think the women, in many cases, are more aggressive than men. Youve seen that sex drive first hand. You talk about the woman of great social pedigree, and the dinner party you went to. Tell me about that. Well, ive had a lot of circumstances where a womans sexual drive has turned out to be just extraordinary. And not necessarily anticipated by me. And i write about this in the book. And its pretty good stuff. This this was a specific dinner, though, wasnt it . There was a specific dinner. What happened . Well, i would rather let the book speak to it, because to be honest, its almost embarrassing talking about it in a in an interview. Because it really is mostly a business book. But i think that women have a lot to do with business. Theyve a lot to do the effect on your life and how they affect your life. Theyve a huge amount to do that. She embarrassed you, though, this woman. I mean, you dont name her in the book. I dont i would never name her. Somebody else wrote a book and named all the women that he had, as he said, conquered. It was playing with the feet under the table, wasnt it . Yes, it was, and it was a whole thing, and it led to something that was sort of interesting, and it led to itjust wasnt a very good thing, especially with her husband sitting on the other side of the table. And there are so many instances like this. And i do talk about them in the book. And theyre interesting. It is not what the book is all about. But the book is about success, and frankly, women so influence you, and the world, and the world around you, that i devote a lot of to women in the book. You say that women have one of the great acts of all time. The smart ones very feminine and needy, but inside, theyre real killers. It sounds as though you almost have a sort of Love Hate Relationship with women. Well, i might. I have mostly a love relationship with women, because i totally admire and respect and love women. I think women are incredible. But i really do. I feel that there there is a the ones who go out and do it without waving the banner of womens liberation. And if you look at the really successful women, those are the ones that are not had to wave that big banner. Theyve just gone out and done it. I mean, well, see, iwould rather address that question sometime later because at this moment, umm, i have a very Good Relationship with ivana. I think i have a very Good Relationship with marla, but i will be able to tell you in a month or two. Well find out. Youve stressed the importance, though, of the prenuptial agreement, even though you say its a vicious and its an ugly document, and people who sign it are 50 more likely to divorce than those who dont. But yet you stress that this is the key to a happy marriage . Prenuptial agreements are ugly, vicious, terrible documents that you have to have. I mean, it is, umm, if you are getting married, and if you are a person of substance, a man or a woman of substance, you have to have a prenuptial agreement. And the reason is the word certainty. You need certainty over your business. You cant be going on for ten years fighting over a divorce settlement. You need certainty. You just have to have a prenuptial agreement. And even when you do, you have battles, as you have shown. Its not foolproof, is it . Even when you do, i mean, even when you have a. Well, prenuptials are pretty foolproof, but, they still fight. And people who will still fight over prenups, i know people that have fought for more than their prenuptial agreements have given, they are legion. But, umm, you know, the prenuptials are very strong agreements and hold up. Does it take the romance out of it . Yeah, it does. Its always hard to go up to somebody and say, look, i love you very much, but if and when we get divorced, this is what youre getting, so, you know, would you agree to that . Its always. Its always really tough. Its a very unromantic agreement. Theres nothing nice about a prenuptial agreement. But from a practical standpoint, and living in this world, and living through a very difficult court system, and everything else, i think its absolutely necessary for somebody to have one. And its so important that actually at some point i devote a chapter in the book to prenuptial agreements. So, you think that if you can sort out the finances, that somehow the relationship will take care of itself . I think that finances and relationships are very, very different. I think that finances, that great success, often leads to bad relationships unfortunately. I think that the reason somebody becomes successful is they focus on success, his or her success, not necessarily his or her relationship. But i think that there are times when both can work beautifully if you get the right partner. And getting the right partner is a very important thing in life. Having the right partner can be a very beautiful thing in life, if you are lucky enough to do that. Taking a breakfrom romance now . I think so. It is certainly not number one in my mind. I am having a lot of fun doing what i am doing. Itsjust not number one in my mind. Glad to be free . Yes. Available . Not that we are advertising. I think there is nothing like having a Good Relationship. I think having a great relationship is more important than deals and more important than everything else. I find that business comes very easy to me and a Good Relationship is hard. I have just found that historically its been the case. Most people would say its just the opposite, its easier to have a relationship. I think that a relationship is based on so many Different Things that are just adverse to business. And i think having that great relationship does not necessarily go with having that great business. Most important to you seems to be your children, is that right . Yeah, i have Great Children and they are very important to me. And i think that is one of the good things that came out of those relationships. And your parents, are you still very close to them . I am still very close to my parents. I have a great relationship with them. How did they inspire your business . Your father was a businessman. My father was a builder in brooklyn, in queens. He built moderate income housing. He was really good at what he did. He was a real professional. And i learned a lotjust sitting on his knee, you know, listening to him from the
Rich, ruthless, and famous my guest is a new york institution, known for the buildings hes built, and the wives hes divorced. You dont want to cross him, though, because he likes getting even. And hes made it a rule that no one pushes him around ever. So how did he lose all his money, and then get it back again . Donald trump, a very warm welcome to the programme. You say you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs. That sounds like a very destructive business philosophy, is it . Well im not sure ive actually used those words. But generally, you have to shake things up pretty pretty much, in order to do something of consequence. And i have shaken things up, and ive had the best business years of my life, by far. How rough is business in new york . We hear a lot about, its the roughest, toughest, the most ruthless business in the world. Is it . Well i think the business in new york tends to be tougher, maybe, than in other places, but im not sure its true. The Real Estate Business in new york is an amazing business. Its a great business. And any time you have a great business, you always have competition. And you always, have, unfortunately, the smart and the tough people coming into it. Do you have to be a killer in business . I think you have to be smart in business. I dont think you have to be a killer, i think you have to be smart. Does that mean eyes in the back of your head, always looking to is going to get you, put a fast one on you . One of the things i say in the book, and i say very strongly, is you have to be paranoid. And the book is selling so well, and i guess people believe this. But there is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia. You watch, you can be a little bit careful, you watch whats happening behind your back. And i think thats probably very true in business. If youre paranoid, how much enjoyment is in that . How much time do you have were you can you actually sit back and say look what ive done, this is great . I think that there is great enjoyment. I think that paranoia cannot be carried to a life shattering crisis point. But i think its good to always know people are out there, and they are looking, and looking to throw you off your throne. But i think success brings great enjoyment, and certainly it has for me. Is it the competition that fires you up . Is it the money . What is it that gets you out of bed in the morning . What is it that drives you, here . I really think it is the artistic or the aesthetic. I love building great buildings. And the case most of my business is the building of things. I get great artistic pride out of a great building like trump tower, which is on 57th st and 5th ave, in new york, or Trump Internation Hotel in town, my new building on central park west. I get a great sense of artistic enjoyment at those buildings. What do you think of business business methods in the city . I mean, youve been in new yorker your whole life. What you think of the way people conduct business in the city. I dont think that new york is that much different from other places. What i do think is there is a Greater Energy new york. There is greater verve, or or a greater drive, maybe, in new york, than most other places. And really, than any other place i have seen. But i dont think that business itself is much different in new york than anywhere else. Greed, corruption, i mean, you say, its a Throwaway Line in the book, but you say greed is good. Well, i dont think that greed is good. As you know, they did them famous film with michael douglas, wall street, where greed is good. But that is not the case. I think greed is bad. I think you have to enjoy what youre doing. If you enjoy what youre doing, it will be successful, generally. If you dont enjoy what youre doing, it is almost never going be successful. Rich men are always targets. The richer you get, i suppose, the bigger the target that you present to people. How much does that worry you . Well i think that rich men, i guess, are always targets. Rich people are always targets. I think that theres a level of celebrity that i have obtained that its become so ridiculous, now, that makes me an even bigger target. So it always bothers me, but there is really not much i can do about that. Ridiculous in what way, the Celebrity Level . Well, its just become tough to go out. Its very tough to do things. Its tough to even go to a restaurant, in a sense, because its always shaking hands and signing autographs and things. And you know, it didnt used to be that way. That is a symbol of success, is it . Youre a victim of your success . It is, but its not a good symbol, necessarily. It causes lots of problems. Because you go out and you want to have dinner with a group of people, and it ends up being a big event, and there are people waiting at the entrance to the its just a very tough way to live a life, i find. You talk a lot in your book about getting even, the importance of getting even. Is revenge sweet . I believe strongly in getting even. If somebodys hurt you, if somebodys gone out of their way to hurt you, i think that if you have the opportunity, you should certainly go out of your way to hurt them. And ive had more criticism about that one statement in my book than any other statement. The clergy has called, the ministers, the priests, the rabbis, they have all said thats a terrible thing to say, that is against our teaching. Others believe that. I believe in an eye for an eye. If you did turn the other cheek, as the clergy is presumably suggesting to you, what would that do to your reputation in business circles, here in new york . I dont know what it would do to my reputation. I just dont believe in instinctively turning the other cheek. If somebody was out to hurt you, if they want to do a number on you, i really believe that you should just do a number on them, if you get the chance. Can you give me an example . Well, there were people that i really helped in business. When things were very good in the 1980s, and my company was going good. And they did not lift a finger to help me when i needed it. And there were a couple of them that could have very easily helped me. Now i have the opportunity to do a number on those people, and i will tell you, and having a lot of fun with the opportunity. Who are the movers and shakers in this society . We get the impression, in new york, that power is in the hands of a few very, very rich people, yourself included. Decisions in smoke filled rooms . Is that still the way business is conducted in the city . Well, i think new york is very much run politically. I think we have a mayor, named rudy giuliani, who has done an incredible job in new york. And just got re elected. And just been re elected by a huge margin. I guess the largest margin ever. He has been an incredible mayor, he has done an unbelievablejob he has just been great. And so it starts off with the mayor, the leadership, the politicians. We have other people within the business community, obviously, that are very important, and are a lot of them. But the citys just become very, very hot. And i think it is due to rudy, and lots people in business, that have done such a good job. When you say hot, more focused . Its really become focused. Its just a place where Everyone Wants to be. People want to come to new york. They love the city. They want to be here. They want the action. You know, new york has action. New york is unbelievable action. Everyone wants to be here. And i happen to be the biggest developer in new york. My company now has do much better than it ever did in the 1980s. What do you attribute that to . Well, i think one thing is perseverance. I mean, when things were tough at the beginning of the 90s, for me and every one else, the problem with me was i was getting all the publicity. The Great Depression, you call it, the 90s . I call it the Great Depression of the early 90s, because we were really in a real estate depression. And it was real estate in retailing and airlines, and various other businesses, they were in a total depression. They werent in a recession. And i survived, and most people didnt survive. I mean, a lot of my friends, a lot of good people and bad people had go bankrupt. And you never heard from them again, and you probably never will hear from them again. But you know, i survived to a point where the company is much bigger now than it ever was, and much stronger, financially, than it ever was. And i wrote a book about it. But in the early 90s, you faced the possibility of losing everything. In fact, on paper, you had lost pretty much everything. I had faced the possibility of losing everything. And it i went back to work, i focused. I focused my mental energies, and all of my energies. You never thought of giving up . No, i think one of the reasons why a really succeeded and bigger than even in the 80s is the fact that its a little word called perseverance. I didnt stop. Its a long word, actually. It is a long would come to think of it. I didnt stop. I did persevere. I went up against a lot of odds. I came up with a phrase, survive till 95. That was in the early 1990s. And it turned out to be right. Because the world changed, the economy changed, and there was a Survival Tactic until a certain year. And in 1995, things started changing. But i mean, it really started changing for me almost right at the beginning. I went back to work. I refocused my energies. How desperate were you at that time . How depressed did you get . To start off with, i really blamed myself a little bit, because ive always been able to pick markets. And i really wasnt focused was in the 80s. I was having too good of time, i was enjoying my life too much. Things were going too well. You dropped your guard . I did drop my guard. And it is no different from you if you do 15 great interviews, you know, on the 16th, you can take it easy because. That happens in life. Its a human trait. I did drop my guard. I put my guard back up and put my defences and offences more than i ever did in the 80s, and worked probably harder than i did in the 70s and 80s. And actually became much more successful. You had to believe in your own abilities. Wasnt there time where you thought i really cant hack it, i should get out of this, im not suited to this . There were some times. There was a pretty depressing times. Because i owed billions and billions of dollars. 975 million or so was personally guaranteed. And that is a pretty deep hole. And when youre that deep in debt, youre mired in debt, and youre that deep in debt, thats a pretty rough situation to be in. And the vultures circling around you . Well, you had plenty of vultures. You had plenty of bad people circling. And some good people, frankly, that wanted to get paid. But it was just, it was Hunker Down Time as they say in georgia. And i did do that. Did you learn some lessons about the people who were your friends and people who werent your friends . Painful lessons. I wrote once that i would love to, sort of, have a bad period, financially, just to see who my friends would be, and to my enemies would be. I will never write again, because it is not fun. It might be a self fulfilling prophecy . Well, thats a true. I never want to write it again. I have done that period, and in that time, i learnt a lot. I learnt a lot about myself. But i also learned that there was a very good friends out there for me, and then people who did not help. Tell me about the women in your life, because there seems a sense in which, you say in the book, you have measured women by your mother . Is that right . I have a wonderful mother, a great mother. I dont measure women by my mother, but i have a woman and my mother who is a terrific woman. And ive been married to two very nice women, but itjust didnt work out. And i think part of that, one of the negatives to success is that there are lots of obstacles thrown in your way in terms of relationship. First of all, time. But even your own mental psyche. I mean, my thing is, im thinking about deals, and im thinking about these great buildings all over, you know, that im doing, im building the largestjob ever approved by the new York City Planning Commission on the west side. You know, thats a thought process. Theres a lot of things that im doing and building. And think about that, maybe, as opposed to a relationship. And im not saying that in a positive way, im saying it almost in a negative way. Because its very negative in terms of relationship. And success may be great in terms of living and lifestyle, and Beautiful Homes and apartments, and boats, and planes, and all of this stuff that doesnt mean very but success is not necessarily very good for a relationship. Women are far stronger than men, you say do you really believe that . I believe that women are actually stronger than men. And actually say that they are not so much stronger, but i think they are more aggressive than men. And their sex drive makes us look like babies. I think that the womans sex drive is as as good or greater than a mans sex drive. Ive been witness to it, and perhaps you have, if youre lucky. But sex drive of women is extraordinary. And they like to portray themselves as the weaker sex, but the weaker sex doesnt exist, believe me. I think they probably, theyre certainly the more aggressive sex. And even in business, ive found that some women are just more aggressive. And i dont exactly know why. And i say this with respect, i dont say this was scorn, with anything else. I say this out of respect. But i think the women, in many cases, are more aggressive than men. Youve seen that sex drive first hand. You talk about the woman of great social pedigree, and the dinner party you went to. Tell me about that. Well, ive had a lot of circumstances where a womans sexual drive has turned out to be just extraordinary. And not necessarily anticipated by me. And i write about this in the book. And its pretty good stuff. This this was a specific dinner, though, wasnt it . There was a specific dinner. What happened . Well, i would rather let the book speak to it, because to be honest, its almost embarrassing talking about it in a in an interview. Because it really is mostly a business book. But i think that women have a lot to do with business. Theyve a lot to do the effect on your life and how they affect your life. Theyve a huge amount to do that. She embarrassed you, though, this woman. I mean, you dont name her in the book. I dont i would never name her. Somebody else wrote a book and named all the women that he had, as he said, conquered. It was playing with the feet under the table, wasnt it . Yes, it was, and it was a whole thing, and it led to something that was sort of interesting, and it led to itjust wasnt a very good thing, especially with her husband sitting on the other side of the table. And there are so many instances like this. And i do talk about them in the book. And theyre interesting. It is not what the book is all about. But the book is about success, and frankly, women so influence you, and the world, and the world around you, that i devote a lot of to women in the book. You say that women have one of the great acts of all time. The smart ones very feminine and needy, but inside, theyre real killers. It sounds as though you almost have a sort of Love Hate Relationship with women. Well, i might. I have mostly a love relationship with women, because i totally admire and respect and love women. I think women are incredible. But i really do. I feel that there there is a the ones who go out and do it without waving the banner of womens liberation. And if you look at the really successful women, those are the ones that are not had to wave that big banner. Theyve just gone out and done it. I mean, well, see, iwould rather address that question sometime later because at this moment, umm, i have a very Good Relationship with ivana. I think i have a very Good Relationship with marla, but i will be able to tell you in a month or two. Well find out. Youve stressed the importance, though, of the prenuptial agreement, even though you say its a vicious and its an ugly document, and people who sign it are 50 more likely to divorce than those who dont. But yet you stress that this is the key to a happy marriage . Prenuptial agreements are ugly, vicious, terrible documents that you have to have. I mean, it is, umm, if you are getting married, and if you are a person of substance, a man or a woman of substance, you have to have a prenuptial agreement. And the reason is the word certainty. You need certainty over your business. You cant be going on for ten years fighting over a divorce settlement. You need certainty. You just have to have a prenuptial agreement. And even when you do, you have battles, as you have shown. Its not foolproof, is it . Even when you do, i mean, even when you have a. Well, prenuptials are pretty foolproof, but, they still fight. And people who will still fight over prenups, i know people that have fought for more than their prenuptial agreements have given, they are legion. But, umm, you know, the prenuptials are very strong agreements and hold up. Does it take the romance out of it . Yeah, it does. Its always hard to go up to somebody and say, look, i love you very much, but if and when we get divorced, this is what youre getting, so, you know, would you agree to that . Its always. Its always really tough. Its a very unromantic agreement. Theres nothing nice about a prenuptial agreement. But from a practical standpoint, and living in this world, and living through a very difficult court system, and everything else, i think its absolutely necessary for somebody to have one. And its so important that actually at some point i devote a chapter in the book to prenuptial agreements. So, you think that if you can sort out the finances, that somehow the relationship will take care of itself . I think that finances and relationships are very, very different. I think that finances, that great success, often leads to bad relationships unfortunately. I think that the reason somebody becomes successful is they focus on success, his or her success, not necessarily his or her relationship. But i think that there are times when both can work beautifully if you get the right partner. And getting the right partner is a very important thing in life. Having the right partner can be a very beautiful thing in life, if you are lucky enough to do that. Taking a breakfrom romance now . I think so. It is certainly not number one in my mind. I am having a lot of fun doing what i am doing. Itsjust not number one in my mind. Glad to be free . Yes. Available . Not that we are advertising. I think there is nothing like having a Good Relationship. I think having a great relationship is more important than deals and more important than everything else. I find that business comes very easy to me and a Good Relationship is hard. I have just found that historically its been the case. Most people would say its just the opposite, its easier to have a relationship. I think that a relationship is based on so many Different Things that are just adverse to business. And i think having that great relationship does not necessarily go with having that great business. Most important to you seems to be your children, is that right . Yeah, i have Great Children and they are very important to me. And i think that is one of the good things that came out of those relationships. And your parents, are you still very close to them . I am still very close to my parents. I have a great relationship with them. How did they inspire your business . Your father was a businessman. My father was a builder in brooklyn, in queens. He built moderate income housing. He was really good at what he did. He was a real professional. And i learned a lotjust sitting on his knee, you know, listening to him from the
Rich, ruthless, and famous my guest is a new york institution, known for the buildings hes built, and the wives hes divorced. You dont want to cross him, though, because he likes getting even. And hes made it a rule that no one pushes him around ever. So how did he lose all his money, and then get it back again . Donald trump, a very warm welcome to the programme. You say you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs. That sounds like a very destructive business philosophy, is it . Well im not sure ive actually used those words. But generally, you have to shake things up pretty pretty much, in order to do something of consequence. And i have shaken things up, and ive had the best business years of my life, by far. How rough is business in new york . We hear a lot about, its the roughest, toughest, the most ruthless business in the world. Is it . Well i think the business in new york tends to be tougher, maybe, than in other places, but im not sure its true. The Real Estate Business in new york is an amazing business. Its a great business. And any time you have a great business, you always have competition. And you always, have, unfortunately, the smart and the tough people coming into it. Do you have to be a killer in business . I think you have to be smart in business. I dont think you have to be a killer, i think you have to be smart. Does that mean eyes in the back of your head, always looking to is going to get you, put a fast one on you . One of the things i say in the book, and i say very strongly, is you have to be paranoid. And the book is selling so well, and i guess people believe this. But there is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia. You watch, you can be a little bit careful, you watch whats happening behind your back. And i think thats probably very true in business. If youre paranoid, how much enjoyment is in that . How much time do you have were you can you actually sit back and say look what ive done, this is great . I think that there is great enjoyment. I think that paranoia cannot be carried to a life shattering crisis point. But i think its good to always know people are out there, and they are looking, and looking to throw you off your throne. But i think success brings great enjoyment, and certainly it has for me. Is it the competition that fires you up . Is it the money . What is it that gets you out of bed in the morning . What is it that drives you, here . I really think it is the artistic or the aesthetic. I love building great buildings. And the case most of my business is the building of things. I get great artistic pride out of a great building like trump tower, which is on 57th st and 5th ave, in new york, or Trump Internation Hotel in town, my new building on central park west. I get a great sense of artistic enjoyment at those buildings. What do you think of business business methods in the city . I mean, youve been in new yorker your whole life. What you think of the way people conduct business in the city. I dont think that new york is that much different from other places. What i do think is there is a Greater Energy new york. There is greater verve, or or a greater drive, maybe, in new york, than most other places. And really, than any other place i have seen. But i dont think that business itself is much different in new york than anywhere else. Greed, corruption, i mean, you say, its a Throwaway Line in the book, but you say greed is good. Well, i dont think that greed is good. As you know, they did them famous film with michael douglas, wall street, where greed is good. But that is not the case. I think greed is bad. I think you have to enjoy what youre doing. If you enjoy what youre doing, it will be successful, generally. If you dont enjoy what youre doing, it is almost never going be successful. Rich men are always targets. The richer you get, i suppose, the bigger the target that you present to people. How much does that worry you . Well i think that rich men, i guess, are always targets. Rich people are always targets. I think that theres a level of celebrity that i have obtained that its become so ridiculous, now, that makes me an even bigger target. So it always bothers me, but there is really not much i can do about that. Ridiculous in what way, the Celebrity Level . Well, its just become tough to go out. Its very tough to do things. Its tough to even go to a restaurant, in a sense, because its always shaking hands and signing autographs and things. And you know, it didnt used to be that way. That is a symbol of success, is it . Youre a victim of your success . It is, but its not a good symbol, necessarily. It causes lots of problems. Because you go out and you want to have dinner with a group of people, and it ends up being a big event, and there are people waiting at the entrance to the its just a very tough way to live a life, i find. You talk a lot in your book about getting even, the importance of getting even. Is revenge sweet . I believe strongly in getting even. If somebodys hurt you, if somebodys gone out of their way to hurt you, i think that if you have the opportunity, you should certainly go out of your way to hurt them. And ive had more criticism about that one statement in my book than any other statement. The clergy has called, the ministers, the priests, the rabbis, they have all said thats a terrible thing to say, that is against our teaching. Others believe that. I believe in an eye for an eye. If you did turn the other cheek, as the clergy is presumably suggesting to you, what would that do to your reputation in business circles, here in new york . I dont know what it would do to my reputation. I just dont believe in instinctively turning the other cheek. If somebody was out to hurt you, if they want to do a number on you, i really believe that you should just do a number on them, if you get the chance. Can you give me an example . Well, there were people that i really helped in business. When things were very good in the 1980s, and my company was going good. And they did not lift a finger to help me when i needed it. And there were a couple of them that could have very easily helped me. Now i have the opportunity to do a number on those people, and i will tell you, and having a lot of fun with the opportunity. Who are the movers and shakers in this society . We get the impression, in new york, that power is in the hands of a few very, very rich people, yourself included. Decisions in smoke filled rooms . Is that still the way business is conducted in the city . Well, i think new york is very much run politically. I think we have a mayor, named rudy giuliani, who has done an incredible job in new york. And just got re elected. And just been re elected by a huge margin. I guess the largest margin ever. He has been an incredible mayor, he has done an unbelievablejob he has just been great. And so it starts off with the mayor, the leadership, the politicians. We have other people within the business community, obviously, that are very important, and are a lot of them. But the citys just become very, very hot. And i think it is due to rudy, and lots people in business, that have done such a good job. When you say hot, more focused . Its really become focused. Its just a place where Everyone Wants to be. People want to come to new york. They love the city. They want to be here. They want the action. You know, new york has action. New york is unbelievable action. Everyone wants to be here. And i happen to be the biggest developer in new york. My company now has do much better than it ever did in the 1980s. What do you attribute that to . Well, i think one thing is perseverance. I mean, when things were tough at the beginning of the 90s, for me and every one else, the problem with me was i was getting all the publicity. The Great Depression, you call it, the 90s . I call it the Great Depression of the early 90s, because we were really in a real estate depression. And it was real estate in retailing and airlines, and various other businesses, they were in a total depression. They werent in a recession. And i survived, and most people didnt survive. I mean, a lot of my friends, a lot of good people and bad people had go bankrupt. And you never heard from them again, and you probably never will hear from them again. But you know, i survived to a point where the company is much bigger now than it ever was, and much stronger, financially, than it ever was. And i wrote a book about it. But in the early 90s, you faced the possibility of losing everything. In fact, on paper, you had lost pretty much everything. I had faced the possibility of losing everything. And it i went back to work, i focused. I focused my mental energies, and all of my energies. You never thought of giving up . No, i think one of the reasons why a really succeeded and bigger than even in the 80s is the fact that its a little word called perseverance. I didnt stop. Its a long word, actually. It is a long would come to think of it. I didnt stop. I did persevere. I went up against a lot of odds. I came up with a phrase, survive till 95. That was in the early 1990s. And it turned out to be right. Because the world changed, the economy changed, and there was a Survival Tactic until a certain year. And in 1995, things started changing. But i mean, it really started changing for me almost right at the beginning. I went back to work. I refocused my energies. How desperate were you at that time . How depressed did you get . To start off with, i really blamed myself a little bit, because ive always been able to pick markets. And i really wasnt focused was in the 80s. I was having too good of time, i was enjoying my life too much. Things were going too well. You dropped your guard . I did drop my guard. And it is no different from you if you do 15 great interviews, you know, on the 16th, you can take it easy because. That happens in life. Its a human trait. I did drop my guard. I put my guard back up and put my defences and offences more than i ever did in the 80s, and worked probably harder than i did in the 70s and 80s. And actually became much more successful. You had to believe in your own abilities. Wasnt there time where you thought i really cant hack it, i should get out of this, im not suited to this . There were some times. There was a pretty depressing times. Because i owed billions and billions of dollars. 975 million or so was personally guaranteed. And that is a pretty deep hole. And when youre that deep in debt, youre mired in debt, and youre that deep in debt, thats a pretty rough situation to be in. And the vultures circling around you . Well, you had plenty of vultures. You had plenty of bad people circling. And some good people, frankly, that wanted to get paid. But it was just, it was Hunker Down Time as they say in georgia. And i did do that. Did you learn some lessons about the people who were your friends and people who werent your friends . Painful lessons. I wrote once that i would love to, sort of, have a bad period, financially, just to see who my friends would be, and to my enemies would be. I will never write again, because it is not fun. It might be a self fulfilling prophecy . Well, thats a true. I never want to write it again. I have done that period, and in that time, i learnt a lot. I learnt a lot about myself. But i also learned that there was a very good friends out there for me, and then people who did not help. Tell me about the women in your life, because there seems a sense in which, you say in the book, you have measured women by your mother . Is that right . I have a wonderful mother, a great mother. I dont measure women by my mother, but i have a woman and my mother who is a terrific woman. And ive been married to two very nice women, but itjust didnt work out. And i think part of that, one of the negatives to success is that there are lots of obstacles thrown in your way in terms of relationship. First of all, time. But even your own mental psyche. I mean, my thing is, im thinking about deals, and im thinking about these great buildings all over, you know, that im doing, im building the largestjob ever approved by the new York City Planning Commission on the west side. You know, thats a thought process. Theres a lot of things that im doing and building. And think about that, maybe, as opposed to a relationship. And im not saying that in a positive way, im saying it almost in a negative way. Because its very negative in terms of relationship. And success may be great in terms of living and lifestyle, and Beautiful Homes and apartments, and boats, and planes, and all of this stuff that doesnt mean very but success is not necessarily very good for a relationship. Women are far stronger than men, you say do you really believe that . I believe that women are actually stronger than men. And actually say that they are not so much stronger, but i think they are more aggressive than men. And their sex drive makes us look like babies. I think that the womans sex drive is as as good or greater than a mans sex drive. Ive been witness to it, and perhaps you have, if youre lucky. But sex drive of women is extraordinary. And they like to portray themselves as the weaker sex, but the weaker sex doesnt exist, believe me. I think they probably, theyre certainly the more aggressive sex. And even in business, ive found that some women are just more aggressive. And i dont exactly know why. And i say this with respect, i dont say this was scorn, with anything else. I say this out of respect. But i think the women, in many cases, are more aggressive than men. Youve seen that sex drive first hand. You talk about the woman of great social pedigree, and the dinner party you went to. Tell me about that. Well, ive had a lot of circumstances where a womans sexual drive has turned out to be just extraordinary. And not necessarily anticipated by me. And i write about this in the book. And its pretty good stuff. This this was a specific dinner, though, wasnt it . There was a specific dinner. What happened . Well, i would rather let the book speak to it, because to be honest, its almost embarrassing talking about it in a in an interview. Because it really is mostly a business book. But i think that women have a lot to do with business. Theyve a lot to do the effect on your life and how they affect your life. Theyve a huge amount to do that. She embarrassed you, though, this woman. I mean, you dont name her in the book. I dont i would never name her. Somebody else wrote a book and named all the women that he had, as he said, conquered. It was playing with the feet under the table, wasnt it . Yes, it was, and it was a whole thing, and it led to something that was sort of interesting, and it led to itjust wasnt a very good thing, especially with her husband sitting on the other side of the table. And there are so many instances like this. And i do talk about them in the book. And theyre interesting. It is not what the book is all about. But the book is about success, and frankly, women so influence you, and the world, and the world around you, that i devote a lot of to women in the book. You say that women have one of the great acts of all time. The smart ones very feminine and needy, but inside, theyre real killers. It sounds as though you almost have a sort of Love Hate Relationship with women. Well, i might. I have mostly a love relationship with women, because i totally admire and respect and love women. I think women are incredible. But i really do. I feel that there there is a the ones who go out and do it without waving the banner of womens liberation. And if you look at the really successful women, those are the ones that are not had to wave that big banner. Theyve just gone out and done it. I mean, well, see, iwould rather address that question sometime later because at this moment, umm, i have a very Good Relationship with ivana. I think i have a very Good Relationship with marla, but i will be able to tell you in a month or two. Well find out. Youve stressed the importance, though, of the prenuptial agreement, even though you say its a vicious and its an ugly document, and people who sign it are 50 more likely to divorce than those who dont. But yet you stress that this is the key to a happy marriage . Prenuptial agreements are ugly, vicious, terrible documents that you have to have. I mean, it is, umm, if you are getting married, and if you are a person of substance, a man or a woman of substance, you have to have a prenuptial agreement. And the reason is the word certainty. You need certainty over your business. You cant be going on for ten years fighting over a divorce settlement. You need certainty. You just have to have a prenuptial agreement. And even when you do, you have battles, as you have shown. Its not foolproof, is it . Even when you do, i mean, even when you have a. Well, prenuptials are pretty foolproof, but, they still fight. And people who will still fight over prenups, i know people that have fought for more than their prenuptial agreements have given, they are legion. But, umm, you know, the prenuptials are very strong agreements and hold up. Does it take the romance out of it . Yeah, it does. Its always hard to go up to somebody and say, look, i love you very much, but if and when we get divorced, this is what youre getting, so, you know, would you agree to that . Its always. Its always really tough. Its a very unromantic agreement. Theres nothing nice about a prenuptial agreement. But from a practical standpoint, and living in this world, and living through a very difficult court system, and everything else, i think its absolutely necessary for somebody to have one. And its so important that actually at some point i devote a chapter in the book to prenuptial agreements. So, you think that if you can sort out the finances, that somehow the relationship will take care of itself . I think that finances and relationships are very, very different. I think that finances, that great success, often leads to bad relationships unfortunately. I think that the reason somebody becomes successful is they focus on success, his or her success, not necessarily his or her relationship. But i think that there are times when both can work beautifully if you get the right partner. And getting the right partner is a very important thing in life. Having the right partner can be a very beautiful thing in life, if you are lucky enough to do that. Taking a breakfrom romance now . I think so. It is certainly not number one in my mind. I am having a lot of fun doing what i am doing. Itsjust not number one in my mind. Glad to be free . Yes. Available . Not that we are advertising. I think there is nothing like having a Good Relationship. I think having a great relationship is more important than deals and more important than everything else. I find that business comes very easy to me and a Good Relationship is hard. I have just found that historically its been the case. Most people would say its just the opposite, its easier to have a relationship. I think that a relationship is based on so many Different Things that are just adverse to business. And i think having that great relationship does not necessarily go with having that great business. Most important to you seems to be your children, is that right . Yeah, i have Great Children and they are very important to me. And i think that is one of the good things that came out of those relationships. And your parents, are you still very close to them . I am still very close to my parents. I have a great relationship with them. How did they inspire your business . Your father was a businessman. My father was a builder in brooklyn, in queens. He built moderate income housing. He was really good at what he did. He was a real professional. And i learned a lotjust sitting on his knee, you know, listening to him from the
And now, it is time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. President trump is meeting his fellow leaders of the 620 summit in hamburg this week when big issues Like International trade and Climate Change will be on the agenda. My guest is the progressive canadian American Writer and activist naomi klein. She says Donald Trumps rise to power is a product of our time and that his becoming president amounts to a corporate takeover of the United States by brand trump. Shes calling for mass protests against him. But are her radical policies a panacea for the current ills in the United States . Naomi klein, welcome to hardtalk. Happy to be here. You have just written a new book, no is not enough. Is it anything more than just another liberal critique of donald trump . What i am trying to do with the book is really focus less on donald trump the personality, the extremist, the Shock Machine who has everybody gasping with his tweets and put him into the context really off the past a0 years of economic history and how we arrived here. And he makes sense in this culture where we have had the triumph of Lifestyle Brands where we have humans merging with corporations, we worship wealth, consumption is a way of life. We have a dominance based logic in our economy at every level so i think trump makes sense and i want to put him in context. And in what way does he epitomise or that the personification of the merger of humans and corporations because you say, he has become a one man mega brand with his children and wife as spin off brands. He does kind of breed brands within his family. This is the first time we have had a political figure of this stature who is a fully commercialised superbrand. The Trump Corporation is built around his personality so it isnt just that he has refused to divest from his business, which would be problematic enough, its that the business is trump. So this relates to the first book i ever wrote called no logo which is about how many corporations restructured themselves in the 1990s so they were less about selling and making products and more about Building Ideas and then creating these branded cocooned lifestyles that they extended into all of these areas and donald trump did that. He started off building buildings but then he just started Building Brand trump especially once he had the apprentice. But his Trump Organisation employs 3a,000 people and if you take in all of their families and so on, thats a lot of people who are reliant on his organisation. I dont see what that really has to do with the fact that we are in unprecedented. Well, hes more than a brand, hes more than a brand and if his employees at trump 0rganisation amount to that number, 3a,000. Look, the people who make most of the buildings that bear the trump logo are not employed directly by trump. His Main Business model is to build his name and certainly there are people employed in marketing brand trump, in designing brand trump. Thats the figure from last years cnn money and they looked into the whole Trump Organisation and thats the figure they came up with, so, one way or another. What are you saying . That he doesnt build. He leases brand trump. Im just saying that there is 3a,000 employees under the Trump Organisation so hes more than a brand. A lot of people rely on him for his livelihoods. Ok, i never denied that. All right, thats fine. Isnt he also more than a brand in that he stands for policies, very clear policies and he taps into the zeitgeist when he says, look, im not happy about globalisation. He said, in particular about globalisation in june last year, it has made the financial elite who donate to politicians very wealthy but its left millions of our workers with nothing but poverty and heartache. And you know, hes not the only political figure on the right that is tapping into huge levels of dissatisfaction around corporate globalisation. Marine le pen is doing the same in france and the Brexit Campaign in the uk tapped into that same energy and he ran on this campaign to bring backjobs, to stand up for the Working Class. What he is doing in power is very, very different and thats why as you said in your introduction, i said this is a takeover. But notjust of brand trump, its really exxonmobil, who has taken over the state department. Their ceo is secretary of state. Rex tillerson worked at exxon for his entire adult life, 41 years. After campaigning against Goldman Sachs and wall street, accusing Hillary Clinton of being in the pocket of Goldman Sachs, accusing his republican rivals like ted cruz of the same, trump has turned around and appointed five former Goldman Sachs executives to his cabinet which is absolutely unprecedented. So you are saying big money is associated with donald trump. What im saying is that the way he is governing is quite different from the way he campaigned. There was this political brand called make America 6reat again. But what he has ended up doing is pushing policies that systematically redistribute wealth to the 1 of the 1 . He is doing it with tax policy infrastructure plans, healthcare, social security. Thats not what he campaigned on. All right. Interesting you bring up the campaign when you say its not what he campaigned on because the democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton, spent 1. 2 billion on her campaign. Donald trump spent 600 million. If you look at your argument, actually, just looking at the campaign, it would seem that big money flowed more to the democratic candidate than it did to donald trump. Thats not my argument. No, just, its a point to make though, isnt it . You can make that point. But the argument i make in the book is that Hillary Clinton paved the way for donald trump, in that he did not win the election but she lost at the election, because she was uniquely unsuited to be an opposition to this hollow promise that he represented. Of course this billionaire in his Golden Throne was not going to be a saviour to the Working Class. The reason he won is not because he had a landslide, he won because the democrats were not able to energise their base and that is why i say that no is not enough. It is not enough just to critique trump. There has to be an economic project on the Progressive Side of the political spectrum that speak to that need forjobs and security that trump was speaking to. He was selling lies. Well, im sure he wouldnt say he was selling lies because one thing he has done is teared up the tra ns Pacific Partnership agreement because he thinks that trade has not served the United States well and says he wants to renegotiate nafta. To make it more like the tra ns Pacific Partnership. He says he wants to hire american, buy american and thats what i mean about the fact that he taps into the zeitgeist. Hes criticised countries like japan and germany because they have huge trade surpluses. He wants to bring jobs to the United States. Well, he says that. Yes. He says that. I think if we look at what he is doing, he will actually end up driving down wages. His commerce secretary, wilbur ross, has been out there reassuring Business Audiences that when they renegotiate nafta, theyre going to do to make it more like the trans Pacific Partnership which is exactly what trump campaigned against. So of course he raised these hopes but i dont believe he is going to bring thejobs back and support middle class lifestyles. He did it to get elected and it was a resonant promise but that is why my argument is that progressives need to step up into this moment with a real 21st century Jobs Programme and im passionate about Climate Change and the fact that we need jobs that are going to support middle class families and Working Class families but also bring emissions down very, very quickly. Luckily we can do this, we can create huge numbers ofjobs in efficiency, public transit, renewable energy. This is the future, not bringing back coaljobs and creating weapons jobs. But i mean, he wants to bring back jobs, even if they might not be as well paid as you might like, at least he wants to bring jobs back. Hes criticised outsourcing, i know you say in your book that there is outsourcing in trumps organisations but he says he wants to bring back. Theyre built on outsourcing. He wants to bring back some labour to the United States and i think you would have to accept that time might tell if he does do that. He is saying that free trade isnt all it is cracked up to be. I mean, there are people who are worried about protectionism now in the us and so on. Absolutely. So im saying there must be some things that you agree with him on. His anti globalisation stance. What i believe is that the reason why trump and the Brexit Campaign and le pen have been able to be as successful as they have been is because this terrain which is rightfully progressive has been seeded because centrist Political Parties that originally opposed these trade deals ended up negotiating them and advancing them further. Bill clinton and this is a huge reason why Hillary Clinton was not trusted among Working Class voters in the us is that bill clinton originally campaigned against nafta, promised to renegotiate the whole agreement, and ended up pushing the free trade agenda much further. So when she campaigned against the tra ns Pacific Partnership, as she did, itjust wasnt credible and this is why we are seeing a wave of support for figures like Jeremy Cameron and Bernie Sanders who are just seen as more credible messengers for a message of progressive economic populism. But there is some overlap, you must accept, between progressive voices such as yours and what donald trump is advocating. But, i guess. Isnt there . There is overlap, there is overlap. There is overlap, you accept that. What i dont accept is that hes actually going to do it. What i believe is that he saw that there was fertile political ground. Hes changing the Corporate Culture a bit. Ill tell you whatjeff immelt, the outgoing ceo of general electrics said. He said, 6lobal Thinkers have grown increasingly distant from the needs at ground level. We ignored the impact on communities and hid behind trade deals that were better for companies than workers. Donald trump arguably has opened up the space where you have Corporate Leaders such Asjeff Immelt saying these things. Saying things, saying things. You know, shifting the debate, it doesnt matter. No, it does matter. Hes opened a debate amongst senior corporate figures. Absolutely, there is a shifting political ground and that is happening for a variety of reasons. The economic project that began under reagan and thatcher has been in crisis since the 2008 financial crash. There is a vacuum. Where this ideological project of privatisation, deregulation, corporate free trade deals used to be. 0n the right you have these populist figures who are coming in and mixing a feeling that economic decisions are all being made by these remote bureaucracies which is true, that Economic Conditions are becoming more and more precarious and mixing it up with xenophobia, with racism, with misogyny. You have populist sentiment from the left wing and populist sentiment on the right wing and arguably, donald trump is a populist from the centre right. Let me tell you what concerns me. There are populists from the centre left such as, you mentioned jeremy corbyn, syriza in greece, and arguably you yourself. And the Sanders Campaign which got 13 million votes. Sure, and theres Common Ground is what im saying. Anti establishment. Theres Common Ground, certainly, in this tapping in of the Anti Establishment feeling out there. But surely you would acknowledge that theres a contradiction to run an Anti Establishment campaign, saying, im going to stand up their money and then bringing in five Goldman Sachs executives into your cabinet, and then appointing the ceo of exxon to be your secretary of state. And what im saying is we cantjust expose. I mean, its so obvious to expose that donald trump is a fraud but the real issue is what are progressives going to do in the United States . And this is a real concern because this is a malleable moment. There is a moment now, especially what we are seeing with healthcare where their plan to replace 0bamacare is to kick millions of people off their Health Insurance coverage. And in this moment, we are seeing a rise of interest in universal public healthca re, single payer healthcare, but who is blocking that at the state level . The democrats. This is why the road to donald trump is not one we can just pin on the republican side of the political spectrum. Youve mentioned twice now that he is associated with big money and so on, but some of the most greatly admired figures in the United States and in europe are extremely wealthy, usually men. You have bill gates who was applauded for his efforts in tackling tropical diseases. You have Richard Branson with whom Barack 0bama Holidayed recently, the british billionaire. Yep. Youve got Mike Bloomberg who is doing a great deal on Climate Change, an agenda you are very, very attached to, so, what is the matter if these people have a great deal of money if they use it for the public good . So the argument i make is that that whole idea that we can outsource the most pressing problems that we face as global citizens, whether it is Climate Change or infectious diseases, whether it is poverty itself, to the davos class. You know, rather than doing this with democracies, with accountability, with transparency, we are going to hand it over to, as you say, bill gates, Richard Branson, maybe bono will show up. No, i wasnt saying that, but i mean, i know youve said that bill gates, you know, weve got to this assertion that. I said he paved the way. Bill gates can fix africa. Nobodys saying that bill gates can fix africa but his efforts in helping fix africa have to be a applauded. What i say in the book is that, i dont have a problem with charity but were at a moment where the Gates Foundation has arguably more power than the World Health Organisation and many people who work within the un system. Im not sure thats the case. Talk about being absolutely stunned by the amount of power wielded by private, unaccountable wealth. And this is something i have written about in the past with Richard Branson and the wild claims he has made about how he is going to use his billions from Fossil Fuel Burning to fix Climate Change and there is no accountability for that money. Are you saying we should do away with philanthropy . Tax them at a fair level and use that money democratically to solve problems collectively. That logic created a situation where we acquainted great wealth with great wisdom. If you make money in software, it must mean you know everything about everything health, agriculture, education. That created a context for donald trump to say, vote for me, i dont know anything about governing and i have never Held Public Office but i am so rich this was his pitch. He has surrounded himself with other rich people, he has hr mcmaster, National Security advisor. He has outsourced half the government to his son in law. You say he has outsourced half of the government. I have to say he was criticised for not appointing enough people. 5 of 556 federal positions have been filled, which means. They dont believe in government. So many others havent. He argues against the fact that you say there is a Grand Master Plan. It could be more. Steve bannon has been open about the master plan. He said the goal is to deconstruct the administrative state, and that is why they have appointed people to head up Government Agencies who dont believe in the existence it of those Government Agencies. This is true for energy, the epa, education betsy davos doesnt believe in Public Education he wont get anything done if he hasnt filled 550 positions. They dont believe in government. There is a Grand Master Plan and that is the same we have lived in for a0 years, which is what reagan said, 6overnment isnt the solution, it is the problem. It is margaret thatchers vision, that there is no such thing as this society. Donald trump went before the people and said he would protect healthcare and social security, and it is finishing the job that reagan and thatcher started. Margaret thatcher believed in a community of communities, that society remark. Misquoted her. Laughter. Donald trump has tapped into the zeitgeist. Two thirds of American Voters who dont have a degree voted for him. I dont know if it was the zeitgeist. 145 academics and writers issued a statement in support of trump, and one was a Philosophy Professor at the university of texas, he said trump is pro american, concerned about immigration because of economic effects and about factories closing down. These are not. Trump is concerned about donald trump. This is his animating mission in life. It is to enrich himself and build himself up. Anybody who tells themselves otherwise is. You are dismissing a lot of people who voted for him. I am not dismissing all of the people who voted for him. He ran a deeply Dishonest Campaign at a moment which, as you say, he tapped into the antiestablishment zeitgeist, running against an extremely establishment candidate with a message that was, all is hell, to which Hillary Clinton said, all is well, and it isnt well. People are in pain. They need good jobs. They need security. There is a tremendous amount of fear. Those who didnt vote for donald trump, the majority of american people, too many were not excited about Hillary Clinton. She had depressed Voter Turnout compared with 0bama in 2012. They felt the system had failed them. I believe the Democratic Party has abandoned workers, not just white workers, the Working Class generally. And those most vulnerable in the Working Class in the us are those of colour. So, what they peddled was Identity Politics mostly about name checking different groups, recognising them, i see you, and not offering improvements in daily life. Hillary clinton opposed the Strong Campaign for a 15 dollar minimum wage she couldnt get behind it. She said, maybe 12, you know . This is what it means to fight for womens rights, who are overwhelmingly the women who are in those precarious jobs, Working Multiplejobs to pay the bills. She represents a particular kind of Identity Politics, a leaf in feminism that benefits elites. To go back to the white Working Class, it is the white male Working Class who feel neglected who voted for donald trump. Professor angus steed and anne cates, nobel laureate, they are at princeton university, they have done a great deal of study on the white male Working Class. They showed that the Mortality Rate for the poorly educated for white males has soared since 2000. They are more likely to die than black or hispanic males. They are likely to be at the bottom of the rung. That is what i said, they have been perhaps neglected by progressive voices. By everyone. That is where trump spoke to them and they heard him. The solution is not to say, well, forget Identity Politics, we will just focus on the white Working Class. It is to connect the dots. They are not the only ones discarded by this system. It is true that they are the ones who had the highest level of expectation. They had the betterjobs, they tended to have those Manufacturing Jobs that paid enough to support a family, you know, in the auto sector and so on. So it is untrue that they have suffered the most under these economic policies. In fact the wealth gap between white and black in the United States has widened, because, since 2008, since the financial crisis, it was overwhelmingly Black Americans targeted for sub prime loans. They have lost an enormous amount of wealth. If you are in the higher part of the economic hierarchy you have further to fall. There is more a sense of betrayal perhaps among those white men that are taking their own lives,
And now, it is time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. President trump is meeting his fellow leaders of the 620 summit in hamburg this week when big issues Like International trade and Climate Change will be on the agenda. My guest is the progressive canadian American Writer and activist naomi klein. She says Donald Trumps rise to power is a product of our time and that his becoming president amounts to a corporate takeover of the United States by brand trump. Shes calling for mass protests against him. But are her radical policies a panacea for the current ills in the United States . Naomi klein, welcome to hardtalk. Happy to be here. You have just written a new book, no is not enough. Is it anything more than just another liberal critique of donald trump . What i am trying to do with the book is really focus less on donald trump the personality, the extremist, the Shock Machine who has everybody gasping with his tweets and put him into the context really off the past a0 years of economic history and how we arrived here. And he makes sense in this culture where we have had the triumph of Lifestyle Brands where we have humans merging with corporations, we worship wealth, consumption is a way of life. We have a dominance based logic in our economy at every level so i think trump makes sense and i want to put him in context. And in what way does he epitomise or that the personification of the merger of humans and corporations because you say, he has become a one man mega brand with his children and wife as spin off brands. He does kind of breed brands within his family. This is the first time we have had a political figure of this stature who is a fully commercialised superbrand. The Trump Corporation is built around his personality so it isnt just that he has refused to divest from his business, which would be problematic enough, its that the business is trump. So this relates to the first book i ever wrote called no logo which is about how many corporations restructured themselves in the 1990s so they were less about selling and making products and more about Building Ideas and then creating these branded cocooned lifestyles that they extended into all of these areas and donald trump did that. He started off building buildings but then he just started Building Brand trump especially once he had the apprentice. But his Trump Organisation employs 3a,000 people and if you take in all of their families and so on, thats a lot of people who are reliant on his organisation. I dont see what that really has to do with the fact that we are in unprecedented. Well, hes more than a brand, hes more than a brand and if his employees at trump 0rganisation amount to that number, 3a,000. Look, the people who make most of the buildings that bear the trump logo are not employed directly by trump. His Main Business model is to build his name and certainly there are people employed in marketing brand trump, in designing brand trump. Thats the figure from last years cnn money and they looked into the whole Trump Organisation and thats the figure they came up with, so, one way or another. What are you saying . That he doesnt build. He leases brand trump. Im just saying that there is 3a,000 employees under the Trump Organisation so hes more than a brand. A lot of people rely on him for his livelihoods. Ok, i never denied that. All right, thats fine. Isnt he also more than a brand in that he stands for policies, very clear policies and he taps into the zeitgeist when he says, look, im not happy about globalisation. He said, in particular about globalisation in june last year, it has made the financial elite who donate to politicians very wealthy but its left millions of our workers with nothing but poverty and heartache. And you know, hes not the only political figure on the right that is tapping into huge levels of dissatisfaction around corporate globalisation. Marine le pen is doing the same in france and the Brexit Campaign in the uk tapped into that same energy and he ran on this campaign to bring backjobs, to stand up for the Working Class. What he is doing in power is very, very different and thats why as you said in your introduction, i said this is a takeover. But notjust of brand trump, its really exxonmobil, who has taken over the state department. Their ceo is secretary of state. Rex tillerson worked at exxon for his entire adult life, 41 years. After campaigning against Goldman Sachs and wall street, accusing Hillary Clinton of being in the pocket of Goldman Sachs, accusing his republican rivals like ted cruz of the same, trump has turned around and appointed five former Goldman Sachs executives to his cabinet which is absolutely unprecedented. So you are saying big money is associated with donald trump. What im saying is that the way he is governing is quite different from the way he campaigned. There was this political brand called make America 6reat again. But what he has ended up doing is pushing policies that systematically redistribute wealth to the 1 of the 1 . He is doing it with tax policy infrastructure plans, healthcare, social security. Thats not what he campaigned on. All right. Interesting you bring up the campaign when you say its not what he campaigned on because the democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton, spent 1. 2 billion on her campaign. Donald trump spent 600 million. If you look at your argument, actually, just looking at the campaign, it would seem that big money flowed more to the democratic candidate than it did to donald trump. Thats not my argument. No, just, its a point to make though, isnt it . You can make that point. But the argument i make in the book is that Hillary Clinton paved the way for donald trump, in that he did not win the election but she lost at the election, because she was uniquely unsuited to be an opposition to this hollow promise that he represented. Of course this billionaire in his Golden Throne was not going to be a saviour to the Working Class. The reason he won is not because he had a landslide, he won because the democrats were not able to energise their base and that is why i say that no is not enough. It is not enough just to critique trump. There has to be an economic project on the Progressive Side of the political spectrum that speak to that need forjobs and security that trump was speaking to. He was selling lies. Well, im sure he wouldnt say he was selling lies because one thing he has done is teared up the tra ns Pacific Partnership agreement because he thinks that trade has not served the United States well and says he wants to renegotiate nafta. To make it more like the tra ns Pacific Partnership. He says he wants to hire american, buy american and thats what i mean about the fact that he taps into the zeitgeist. Hes criticised countries like japan and germany because they have huge trade surpluses. He wants to bring jobs to the United States. Well, he says that. Yes. He says that. I think if we look at what he is doing, he will actually end up driving down wages. His commerce secretary, wilbur ross, has been out there reassuring Business Audiences that when they renegotiate nafta, theyre going to do to make it more like the trans Pacific Partnership which is exactly what trump campaigned against. So of course he raised these hopes but i dont believe he is going to bring thejobs back and support middle class lifestyles. He did it to get elected and it was a resonant promise but that is why my argument is that progressives need to step up into this moment with a real 21st century Jobs Programme and im passionate about Climate Change and the fact that we need jobs that are going to support middle class families and Working Class families but also bring emissions down very, very quickly. Luckily we can do this, we can create huge numbers ofjobs in efficiency, public transit, renewable energy. This is the future, not bringing back coaljobs and creating weapons jobs. But i mean, he wants to bring back jobs, even if they might not be as well paid as you might like, at least he wants to bring jobs back. Hes criticised outsourcing, i know you say in your book that there is outsourcing in trumps organisations but he says he wants to bring back. Theyre built on outsourcing. He wants to bring back some labour to the United States and i think you would have to accept that time might tell if he does do that. He is saying that free trade isnt all it is cracked up to be. I mean, there are people who are worried about protectionism now in the us and so on. Absolutely. So im saying there must be some things that you agree with him on. His anti globalisation stance. What i believe is that the reason why trump and the Brexit Campaign and le pen have been able to be as successful as they have been is because this terrain which is rightfully progressive has been seeded because centrist Political Parties that originally opposed these trade deals ended up negotiating them and advancing them further. Bill clinton and this is a huge reason why Hillary Clinton was not trusted among Working Class voters in the us is that bill clinton originally campaigned against nafta, promised to renegotiate the whole agreement, and ended up pushing the free trade agenda much further. So when she campaigned against the tra ns Pacific Partnership, as she did, itjust wasnt credible and this is why we are seeing a wave of support for figures like Jeremy Cameron and Bernie Sanders who are just seen as more credible messengers for a message of progressive economic populism. But there is some overlap, you must accept, between progressive voices such as yours and what donald trump is advocating. But, i guess. Isnt there . There is overlap, there is overlap. There is overlap, you accept that. What i dont accept is that hes actually going to do it. What i believe is that he saw that there was fertile political ground. Hes changing the Corporate Culture a bit. Ill tell you whatjeff immelt, the outgoing ceo of general electrics said. He said, 6lobal Thinkers have grown increasingly distant from the needs at ground level. We ignored the impact on communities and hid behind trade deals that were better for companies than workers. Donald trump arguably has opened up the space where you have Corporate Leaders such Asjeff Immelt saying these things. Saying things, saying things. You know, shifting the debate, it doesnt matter. No, it does matter. Hes opened a debate amongst senior corporate figures. Absolutely, there is a shifting political ground and that is happening for a variety of reasons. The economic project that began under reagan and thatcher has been in crisis since the 2008 financial crash. There is a vacuum. Where this ideological project of privatisation, deregulation, corporate free trade deals used to be. 0n the right you have these populist figures who are coming in and mixing a feeling that economic decisions are all being made by these remote bureaucracies which is true, that Economic Conditions are becoming more and more precarious and mixing it up with xenophobia, with racism, with misogyny. You have populist sentiment from the left wing and populist sentiment on the right wing and arguably, donald trump is a populist from the centre right. Let me tell you what concerns me. There are populists from the centre left such as, you mentioned jeremy corbyn, syriza in greece, and arguably you yourself. And the Sanders Campaign which got 13 million votes. Sure, and theres Common Ground is what im saying. Anti establishment. Theres Common Ground, certainly, in this tapping in of the Anti Establishment feeling out there. But surely you would acknowledge that theres a contradiction to run an Anti Establishment campaign, saying, im going to stand up their money and then bringing in five Goldman Sachs executives into your cabinet, and then appointing the ceo of exxon to be your secretary of state. And what im saying is we cantjust expose. I mean, its so obvious to expose that donald trump is a fraud but the real issue is what are progressives going to do in the United States . And this is a real concern because this is a malleable moment. There is a moment now, especially what we are seeing with healthcare where their plan to replace 0bamacare is to kick millions of people off their Health Insurance coverage. And in this moment, we are seeing a rise of interest in universal public healthca re, single payer healthcare, but who is blocking that at the state level . The democrats. This is why the road to donald trump is not one we can just pin on the republican side of the political spectrum. Youve mentioned twice now that he is associated with big money and so on, but some of the most greatly admired figures in the United States and in europe are extremely wealthy, usually men. You have bill gates who was applauded for his efforts in tackling tropical diseases. You have Richard Branson with whom Barack 0bama Holidayed recently, the british billionaire. Yep. Youve got Mike Bloomberg who is doing a great deal on Climate Change, an agenda you are very, very attached to, so, what is the matter if these people have a great deal of money if they use it for the public good . So the argument i make is that that whole idea that we can outsource the most pressing problems that we face as global citizens, whether it is Climate Change or infectious diseases, whether it is poverty itself, to the davos class. You know, rather than doing this with democracies, with accountability, with transparency, we are going to hand it over to, as you say, bill gates, Richard Branson, maybe bono will show up. No, i wasnt saying that, but i mean, i know youve said that bill gates, you know, weve got to this assertion that. I said he paved the way. Bill gates can fix africa. Nobodys saying that bill gates can fix africa but his efforts in helping fix africa have to be a applauded. What i say in the book is that, i dont have a problem with charity but were at a moment where the Gates Foundation has arguably more power than the World Health Organisation and many people who work within the un system. Im not sure thats the case. Talk about being absolutely stunned by the amount of power wielded by private, unaccountable wealth. And this is something i have written about in the past with Richard Branson and the wild claims he has made about how he is going to use his billions from Fossil Fuel Burning to fix Climate Change and there is no accountability for that money. Are you saying we should do away with philanthropy . Tax them at a fair level and use that money democratically to solve problems collectively. That logic created a situation where we acquainted great wealth with great wisdom. If you make money in software, it must mean you know everything about everything health, agriculture, education. That created a context for donald trump to say, vote for me, i dont know anything about governing and i have never Held Public Office but i am so rich this was his pitch. He has surrounded himself with other rich people, he has hr mcmaster, National Security advisor. He has outsourced half the government to his son in law. You say he has outsourced half of the government. I have to say he was criticised for not appointing enough people. 5 of 556 federal positions have been filled, which means. They dont believe in government. So many others havent. He argues against the fact that you say there is a Grand Master Plan. It could be more. Steve bannon has been open about the master plan. He said the goal is to deconstruct the administrative state, and that is why they have appointed people to head up Government Agencies who dont believe in the existence it of those Government Agencies. This is true for energy, the epa, education betsy davos doesnt believe in Public Education he wont get anything done if he hasnt filled 550 positions. They dont believe in government. There is a Grand Master Plan and that is the same we have lived in for a0 years, which is what reagan said, 6overnment isnt the solution, it is the problem. It is margaret thatchers vision, that there is no such thing as this society. Donald trump went before the people and said he would protect healthcare and social security, and it is finishing the job that reagan and thatcher started. Margaret thatcher believed in a community of communities, that society remark. Misquoted her. Laughter. Donald trump has tapped into the zeitgeist. Two thirds of American Voters who dont have a degree voted for him. I dont know if it was the zeitgeist. 145 academics and writers issued a statement in support of trump, and one was a Philosophy Professor at the university of texas, he said trump is pro american, concerned about immigration because of economic effects and about factories closing down. These are not. Trump is concerned about donald trump. This is his animating mission in life. It is to enrich himself and build himself up. Anybody who tells themselves otherwise is. You are dismissing a lot of people who voted for him. I am not dismissing all of the people who voted for him. He ran a deeply Dishonest Campaign at a moment which, as you say, he tapped into the antiestablishment zeitgeist, running against an extremely establishment candidate with a message that was, all is hell, to which Hillary Clinton said, all is well, and it isnt well. People are in pain. They need good jobs. They need security. There is a tremendous amount of fear. Those who didnt vote for donald trump, the majority of american people, too many were not excited about Hillary Clinton. She had depressed Voter Turnout compared with 0bama in 2012. They felt the system had failed them. I believe the Democratic Party has abandoned workers, not just white workers, the Working Class generally. And those most vulnerable in the Working Class in the us are those of colour. So, what they peddled was Identity Politics mostly about name checking different groups, recognising them, i see you, and not offering improvements in daily life. Hillary clinton opposed the Strong Campaign for a 15 dollar minimum wage she couldnt get behind it. She said, maybe 12, you know . This is what it means to fight for womens rights, who are overwhelmingly the women who are in those precarious jobs, Working Multiplejobs to pay the bills. She represents a particular kind of Identity Politics, a leaf in feminism that benefits elites. To go back to the white Working Class, it is the white male Working Class who feel neglected who voted for donald trump. Professor angus steed and anne cates, nobel laureate, they are at princeton university, they have done a great deal of study on the white male Working Class. They showed that the Mortality Rate for the poorly educated for white males has soared since 2000. They are more likely to die than black or hispanic males. They are likely to be at the bottom of the rung. That is what i said, they have been perhaps neglected by progressive voices. By everyone. That is where trump spoke to them and they heard him. The solution is not to say, well, forget Identity Politics, we will just focus on the white Working Class. It is to connect the dots. They are not the only ones discarded by this system. It is true that they are the ones who had the highest level of expectation. They had the betterjobs, they tended to have those Manufacturing Jobs that paid enough to support a family, you know, in the auto sector and so on. So it is untrue that they have suffered the most under these economic policies. In fact the wealth gap between white and black in the United States has widened, because, since 2008, since the financial crisis, it was overwhelmingly Black Americans targeted for sub prime loans. They have lost an enormous amount of wealth. If you are in the higher part of the economic hierarchy you have further to fall. There is more a sense of betrayal perhaps among those white men that are taking their own lives,