was listening to the great interesting conversation with kelly about it being difficult to prove but this stench think, you know, you remember there used to be a day when that kind of stuff just lead to shame in and of itself. and certainly kept you out of political life later. but that s not there anymore either. whether you can prove or not prove quid pro quo, that absence of revolving door that you described is compelling. well, the shame issue here, i, think is compelling, ali, because obviously, the republicans, particularly trump partisans, are aware that it is shameful to use government service or family connection to government service, to make private gain for yourself, and have private business game. because they use this as a way to try to attack president biden s family, for example, all the time. they know that this is something that is shameful and terrible, and that nobody should ever want to do, and they try to pin all sorts of stuff with that kind of a ca
and certainly kept you out of political life later. but that s not there anymore either. whether you can prove or not prove quid pro quo, that absence of revolving door that you described is compelling. well, the shame issue here, i think, is compelling, ali, because obviously, the republicans, particularly trump partisans, are aware that it is shameful to use government service or family connection to government service, to make private gain for yourself, and have private business game. because they use this as a way to try to attack president biden s family, for example, all the time. they know that this is something that is shameful and terrible, and that nobody should ever want to do, and they try to pin all sorts of stuff with that kind of a category on all sorts of democrats. they know it s wrong. but when they do it, they re assuming, you know, there is assuming that if we bring it up, that there shame will, that there shame isn t operable. it s a strange phenomeno
these structures, at their best, can work to hold those who are most responsible for the kind of depravity that we are seeing in russia. but not for the footsoldiers. for the footsoldiers, it s gotta be domestic institutions, domestic courts, national law. and so, the fact that ukraine is now conducting its own investigations, conducting war crimes trials, with the help of the international community, i think it s a very good sign. what we do have to watch out for, though, is to make sure that the ukrainian procedures are in compliance with international human rights law obligations for fair trials. this trial happened very quickly. we don t know too much about who was the defendant s lawyer,
of depravity that we are seeing in russia. but not for the footsoldiers. for the footsoldiers, it s gotta be domestic institutions, domestic courts, national law. and so, the fact that ukraine is now conducting its own investigations, conducting war crimes trials, with the help of the international community, i think it s a very good sign. what we do have to watch out for, though, is to make sure that the ukrainian procedures are in compliance with international human rights law obligations for fair trials. this trial happened very quickly. we don t know too much about who was the defendant s lawyer, and how much time they had to prepare, to gather evidence, how much of the responsibility can be sent up the chain of command, rather than to this individual. these are all things that are