hours to find evidence of voter fraud only to find 16 incidents where people put a false address on a registration form. 16 individual cases out of 17 million registered voters. but republicans leading these efforts will say just because they haven t found voter fraud doesn t mean it doesn t exist. it s the same rationale that one might have if they avidly search for big foot. it is not a reason to disenfrap disenfrap disenfranchise voters. when we come back two retired generals warning the u.s. military needs to prepare now for another insurrection in 2024. why they are so concerned, next.
of trying to achieve an end, but it doesn t strike me that you re going to convince people who aren t inclined to find him guilty of anything to convict him. jeff, do you agree with that? just with the phone call, it s not enough? i don t think the phone call is enough. but the phone call is plenty. i mean, remember, it s not just find me those ballots. it s if you don t find me those ballots and look for them, you, raffensperger, could be prosecuted yourself. that certainly sounds like a threat. it sounds like intimidation from the president of the united states. again, it s not enough for a prosecutor to simply play the tape and say to the jury, the prosecutor rests. but there is plenty of grist here for a serious criminal investigation. and that seems to be what s going on. jeffrey toobin, don samuel, appreciate your time. thank you. thank you. now more on someone who is
broken, the question is was what you heard in that conversation smoking gun evidence? a report last fall by the brookings institution concluded the former president s conduct left him at substantial risk of state charges predicated on multiple crimes. we want today get some perspective legally. jeffrey toobin joins us and georgia criminal defense attorney don samuel. jeff, the fact that a special grand jury has been given the go-ahead, does that mean that automatically that the da s investigation is serious, that it s more than just this phone call? yes, it means it s serious. it doesn t mean there s a case that s going to be brought. it doesn t mean that president trump is guilty of a crime, but it does mean there will be subpoenas issued, testimony will be taken, documents will be collected, and this investigation will be more than the notorious phone call. whether it turns out to be anything legally more than that, we ll see, but this is a real criminal investigation. don, you
georgia criminal defense attorney don samuel. jeff, the fact that a special grand jury has been given the go-ahead, does that mean that automatically that the da s investigation is serious, that it s more than just this phone call? yes, it means it s serious. it doesn t mean there s a case that s going to be brought. it doesn t mean that president trump is guilty of a crime, but it does mean there will be subpoenas issued, testimony will be taken, documents will be collected, and this investigation will be more than the notorious phone call. whether it turns out to be anything legally more than that, we ll see, but this is a real criminal investigation. don, you were quoted in the atlanta journal constitution last month before the grand jury was requested, on the raffensperger call you said just the words themselves i find it hard to believe that someone can indict or ever get a conviction that was supporting either obstruction or perjury or election fraud. what do you make of th
then, so it s conceivable what he s saying is please don t stop looking, keep looking until you can find under any rock that there s fraud or ballots that, you know, trump ballots that weren t counted or biden ballots that aren t valid. but he never said, mr. raffensperger, i want you and ryan and the other people in your office to sit down and create ballots and stuff the ballot box here in early january. or i want you to go back to the, you know, rooms where they re tabulating votes and start ripping them up. just to say i want you to find them sounds like a sloppy and, you know, maybe a trumpian way of trying to achieve an end, but it doesn t strike me that you re going to convince people who aren t inclined to find him guilty of anything to convict him. jeff, do you agree with that? just with the phone call, it s not enough? i don t think the phone call is enough. but the phone call is plenty.