don t have other wars breaking out. john? i just i tell you with due respect to congressman sarbanes and with respect to politico, politico says it s an odd anecdote and the congressman says it s astounding. it s appalling. it s astounding and it s not odd because there was not any time in donald trump s administration where he s ever not acted in the interests of russia. he often defends russia. this is the pattern. the pattern in in circumspect, of course he was upset about pushing back against russia in the black sea. donald trump has been acting in russia s interest in every crucial respect. mehta, macro, micro. across the three years, it s the least surprising thing in the world. it s disgusting but it s not astounding. congressman sarbanes, you ve been invoked. a quick last word. i think we might have a semantic disagreement here. go ahead, congressman. well, look, i certainly agree with john on that, that it is
congressman sarbanes was just talking about and what so many of the witnesses are talking about, and that is ukraine policy, which may be a more challenging thing to make clear to the public. well, i think, lawrence, the way to actually do it is to focus on russia policy. the opposite of pushing back on russia in the black sea is surrendering to russia in the black sea, right? that s not in u.s. national security interests, it s not in the security interests of our neighbors sorry, of the neighbors there, so turkey, for example, a nato ally. a problematic one, but still. it s not in the interest of freedom of navigation. if you surrender to russia in any of these items, you will see russia pushing further. and that s not in the u.s. national security interest, because russia has violated international law. they have broken the taboo on changing borders using military force. there are other leaders in other countries who would like to do the same starting in europe. so, again, it is
disgusting, but he s not just acting in russia s interest, he s always acting in donald trump s personal political interests, and that s why this is an abuse of his power. it s an abuse of his oath of office. he gets up every morning and he s not thinking about the 350 million americans whose interests he should represent, he s thinking about his own personal political gain. this is just another example of that. the witnesses this week are going to show that s what s going on. congressman john sarbanes, evelyn farkas, thank you for starting this off with us. john heilemann is going to stick around. up next, what is rick perry and john bolton up to? and the list of the impeachment inquiry witnesses was submitted over the weekend. it s not going to fly. and there are planned tactics in the public hearings this week. what is john bolton up to about the republican planned tactics in the public hearings
lives at risk. there is a really startling revelation in christian anderson s deposition released today showing donald trump s just constant posture of appeasement i m not sure what else to call it towards russia. it comes this way in politico s highlights of this anecdote. it says in one odd anecdote released by anderson, he described a 2019 conversation in which the then national security adviser john bolton revealed trump had called him at his home to complain about a cnn story that made it appear the navy was pushing back against russian aggression in the black sea. we met with ambassador bolton and discussed this, and he made it clear that the president had called him to complain about that news report. and that may have been just been that he was surprised. congressman sarbanes, how surprised were you and other
but actually are highly substantive. he said he wants a see-through wall made of steel, which sounds like a steel fence. here s what he is talking about, what he says border patrol told him. here he is today. they want to be able to see through the wall. a see through wall made out of steel is far stronger than a concrete wall, so i m very happy with it. i think i think, i m not sure, but i think that s what the democrats prefer, and if it can get them there, i m okay. congressman, let me be clear. will you vote for something see-through, something that is called a fence or a barrier, something that is steel instead of concrete? is there some way that there is a wall that is not a wall that you will vote for? i and other democrats and a lot of republicans will vote for smart border security. now, you can have border security that s a combination of physical barriers, whatever they may be. so, a fence is on the table for you, some kind of fencing?