Karen houppert. She is our guest on after words and interviewed by jenna green of the International Law journal. Host it is a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoyed your book, chasing gideon. I thought that we could start at the beginning. Who was the somewhat unlikely figure who made such an impact on history Clarence Earl gideon was an itinerary cap. Guest he broke into a pool hall and accused of stealing some change from the jukebox, a couple of beers come a couple of bottles of wine and arrested and brought to court there in florida. He approached the judge on the day of the trial and said that i am not ready to go to trial. And he said that i am looking for an attorney and he said that i am entitled to an attorney, the constitution guarantees my right to an attorney and the judge said, no, it does not. You have to try yourself. And the judge coaxed him through the trial. Very kindly. But he lost and he was a fairly complicated law, going to court is very complicated and selecting