millions could potentially flee, triggering a massive humanitarian crisis. i m going to bring in nbc s cal perry in poland, one of ukraine s neighbors, bracing for a possible wave of refugees. also with me shelly culbertson, a senior policy researcher with the rand corporation. this is a country of 44 million people. if the russian military goes in, are there good estimates on how many people we think might actually try to flee the country? how bad could it get? well, if russia invades, there could be between 1 million and 5 million refugees. that could unfold in a couple different ways. if it s a full-country invasion, there could be a sudden mass exodus of people flowing into neighboring countries, in particular poland. or if it s a lower-grade, longer-term insurgency or limited in geography, there could be a slower movement of people over the coming months or
number of civilian casualties. ukrainians will fight, but i don t see how they can resist a russian invasion. i agree with what s been said. putin is not going to launch at this stage a clear open ground invasion on all fronts on ukraine. he s going to wait this out and hopes that the west gets distracted or blinks. i think it s critical that very harsh economic sanctions be enacted against putin now. that s the only way that he can be deterred. it was a very strong step by germany to cut off the pipeline today, and people need to not, you know, lose patience or be distracted by putin s tactics. he is annexing a neighboring country and will eventually invade it. exactly for that reason, kelly o donnell, that virtually every expert i heard on our air including general mccaffrey, called what we saw yesterday an
the plant. that is a great concern. htf deputy assistant director and president of s3 global consulting. it s a pleasure to talk to is always. i guess we have to hope for the moment and have some faith but then they went to control the power supply and then to switch off the power supply and then that is the best case scenario. the worst is and then does nuclear power plants across the country. kevin: a fascinating conversation. coming up how ukrainians are keeping their faith allies with the russian invasion
country deals with that every day. in that regard, a hate crime isn t any different. to the extent that it is, at the time we have text messages and posts and don t have to rely solely on witness testimony, we can definitely build those cases. this case is a very good example. prosecutors presented 20 different witnesses, which argues against the notion that this was going to be too difficult to prove to take to court. in addition to that, you each got text messages and social media posts. not only did they indicate that they don t like black people, but they think that black people are subhuman, what some of the messages say, which is consistent with them killing ahmaud arbery the way they did. we have almost no time left, david, but i have to ask, if you have three men convicted of murder, why is the hate crimes trial necessary? the answer is because hate crimes are necessary in this day and age not just that people are targeted for race but for other reasons, these crimes are eg
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