Transcripts For WUSA Face The Nation 20140720

Committee, new york congressman peter king and the former u. S. Envoy to the israelipalestinian peace talks, ambassador martin and analysis on all of this. 60 years of news because this is face the captioning sponsored by cbs good morning, again, we are starting with the latest on the malaysian airliner shot down on thursday, cbs news senior Foreign Correspondent Mark Phillips is at the crash site in eastern ukraine, mark. Bob, the scene here has been chaos in the three days since this crash but finally, and largely as a result we think of the International Outrage that has been caused, some of the bodies roughly 200 of them of the victims of this crash are now being moved, it just has been confirmed here, they have been taken to a town nearby and put in refrigerated rail cars, but that is just the beginning of it, there is still at least we calculate 100 bodies data are unaccounted for, many of them entwined, we have seen over the last couple of days in this wreckage, there is still a huge job to be done here, there are areas that are still hot, still a lot where Aviation Fuel is down, there are people in the tangle of the wreckage that will take days and equipment to extract, but in terms of the anguished families all over the world, who lost people in this crash, those people are not now laying exposed here. In terms of the early summer, in terms of the actual investigation, nothing serious has started here yet, there is an advanced team from the European Security body, onsite, but in terms of actual crash investigation, how this happened, who did it, what evidence is in this field, nothing yet, bob. Schieffer all right, mark. Thank you so much. In the other major segment of the horrendous events that are unfolding this morning, israels Ground Invasion into the gaza strip is more intense than ever and now there are new reports of israeli casualties, Barry Petersen is in gaza with more on that, barry. Good morning, be bob, well i think we can say it is an dramatic explanation if i can borrow your word, horrific death toll, overnight hamas claims it ambushed a bunch of Israeli Soldiers hamas claimed it killed 14, then today we saw shelling in one of the neighborhoods here in gaza, so far, the death toll is about 70 but i have to tell you, bob, we really dont know, there is a ceasefire, that got broken when the shelling started again. The City Hospital today talking with some of the people who had been chased out of the area who say they saw bodies in the street, people that they were unable to get help for and perhaps the saddest place to be in the city, the morgue at the hospital, as fast as they would find a family, they would identify the remains, they would take them away, sobbing and wailing, another body would come in, and i have to say, bob, that is the metaphor for the war that is going on in this city today. Schieffer all right. Barry petersen, thank you so much, barry. The secretary of state john kerry joins us now from boston, mr. Secretary, thank you so much. And i want to start with the bottom line question. Do we have definitive proof that the russians were directly involved in the bombing, downing of this airliner . Well, bob, when you say definitive proof of russia, the investigation is going to draw conclusions that are, quote, definitive, what we have is a lot of evidence that points in the direction that raises very, very serious questions, including the fact that a few weeks ago we have 150 vehicle convoy coming from russia, going into the east of ukraine with tanks, artillery, mobile rocket launchers armored personnel carriers turned over to the separate tests we know that there are russian leaders, russian whose are leaders of the separatists, some, not all, some, and we know that the russians have armed the separatists, trained the separatists, support the separatists, and have to date not publicly called on the separate tests to stand down or to be part of the solution. We know that from our own imagery, we see that an sa 11, which is what we have assessed this to be the type of surface to air missile because of the altitude, the plane was at 33,000 feet, we know they had an sa 11 right in the vicinity, hours before this shoot. The social media has documented this. We know that immediately after the shoot the social media documented the selfproclaimed defense minister of the peoples republic of do task as they donetsk, he was bragging on social media about shooting down a transport plane. And then when people learned it was a civilian aircraft, they pulled that off of the social media. We have intercepted voices that have been documented by our people through intelligence as being separatists, who are talking to each other about the shootdown, and we know that we have a video now of a transporter removing an sa 11 system back into russia and it shows a miss missing missile or so. So there is enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence than i just documented that points to the involvement of russia in providing these systems systems, training the people on them. We know that the separate tests have shot down 12 aircraft in the last couple of months, among them two transport planes, but the evidence is quite enormous, here is what is currently bothering everybody. Drunken separatists have been piling bodies into trucks and removing them from the site. We only have 75 minutes of access to the site on friday, three hours of access yesterday, despite mr. Putin and russia saying they were going to make every effort to make sure that there will be a full and fair investigation, thorough and the site would be protected. Because of russias linkage to these separatists they have a greater ability to exert influence and we need russia to become part of the solution not part of the problem. Schieffer well, what else do we need to know, after hearing what you have just outlined here . We need an investigation, not the secretary of state just listing the things that we do know, but a full investigation within International Investigators with their trained personnel, with the people who can put all of the evidence together and draw the appropriate conclusions so that we dont have he said, she said, finger pointing back and forth. People will draw their own conclusions, the evidence is there, but we need a full access to this site in order to conduct a thorough investigation. Schieffer well, what if it does come down to, yes, the russians are responsible for this . Then what should the United States do . What should our response be . Well, there are many things that are options and are already options, bob. We are in conversation now with our european counterparts. We hope this is a wakeup call for some countries in europe that have been reluctant to move. President obama took steps unilaterally, he took them on his own the day before this event and he imposed very tough new sanctions in the banking sector, in the energy sector, in the defense sector, and there are still other sans that could be put in place if it was necessary. Our hope is that president putin will put the actions behind his words. If we can join together in order to help end this separatist effort, bring them into the politics of ukraine, and try to, you know, help ukraine to be able to move forward. And incidentally, you know, in the last months we have been successful in having an election in ukraine, having a new president , and being able to have a new government formed. This deserves the support of russia to be able to build a peaceful, not confrontational and separatist insurgency, but to create a peaceful process to be able to have a ukraine whose sovereignty is respected and where it is not a pawn in some unnecessary struggle between east and west. We have said to russia, we want ukraine to be a bridge between the east and the west, and it can look in both directions. But the way russia is currently play this dual track policy, saying one thing, do another, is really threatening both larger interests as well as that region and threatening ukraine itself. Schieffer mr. Secretary, let me shift to this situation in israel, hamas on their website are now taking credit for killing 14 Israeli Soldiers in the latest ground action in the gaza. Can you confirm that . Do we know that there have been israeli casualties . I think there were some casualties reported a little while ago, bob, but not up to me to be reporting israeli casualties, it is up to, you know, that will be done in the proper course and process. But let me say this. Israel is responding to an intransigent hamas that was offered a ceasefire and didnt want to take it. We support the egyptian effort to have a ceasefire, which israel joined into, which does not have preconditions and then there was a promise of sitting down and dealing with those underlying issue that need to be dealt with, but hamas is trying to insist that as a reward for their terrorist behavior things be decided ahead of time and we support israel in the international communitys right not to be extorted by terrorism. Schieffer are you going to let me just ask you this. Are you planning to go out there to try to increase the chances of a ceasefire . I am planning to go and probably very shortly. The president and i have talked about this as recently as a day and a half ago, we were supposed to be in touch again today. It may be they will ask me to leave immediately, but we have been working very closely with all of the parties and in touch with them and i think if the president deems that this is the moment that is appropriate obviously we will go immediately, but i think there are conversations takes place today with Prime Minister netanyahu and others and hopefully we will have a decision in short order. Schieffer all right. Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, sir. Schieffer thank you. Our Foreign Correspondent Clarissa Ward was in moscow listening to the secretary, clarissa how is what he just said going to go down there . Well, bob, it is anybodys guess we have been working the phones all day trying to get some reaction from the russian leadership to this sort of growing litany of evidence that appears to indicate a russian role in this crisis and so far there has been radio silence, even president putin himself has not been seen or heard from since friday when he issued a brief statement essentially saying that a an International Impartial investigation needs to take place, but of course, bob, in these situations actions speak louder than words and as secretary kerry said there is no real evidence yet that president putin has tried to used his considerable influence with the rebels to get them to facilitate that investigation to open up the crash site and give the investigators unfettered access. Schieffer all right. Well, clarissa, keep us posted, thank you. And joining us now for more on this story, cbs News Senior National security contributor and formerly the number two man at the cia, Michael Morrell plus cbs news Homeland Security correspondence bob orr or and our correspondent david martin. Mike, i am going to go to you with the same question i had for the secretary. What else do we need to know here . It seems pretty clear that russia was deeply involved in this, and and if they were,t do we do now . Bob, there are Different Levels of russian responsibility here. One is the fact that they created these separatists, they encouraged them, they funded them, they equipped them, that is a level of responsibility all by itself. That is already established. There is a second level of responsibility in terms of did they give this particular Weapon System to the separate tests . The evidence on that sounds to be, seems to be mounting. The ukrainians are now claiming it. The secretary all but said it a few minutes ago. I think we are there too. And then the third level of responsibility is we are, were Russian Special forces onsite . Did they assist in the firing . That we wont know. I dont think we are going to learn the answers to those questions from a forensic investigation of the crash site. We are only going to learn those answers from intelligence. But it does seem that there is significant russian complicity here to me. So that means, first step is to mr. Putin, what does he do . And he really has two choices here. He can come out and take some responsibility for this, just as the soviet union did in the shootdown of the south Korean Airline never 1993 and really put the separatists back and really bring peace to eastern ukraine. I dont think he will do that, though. I think he is going to continue to deny. That means it is going to have to come back to us in terms of what we do and really two choices i think one is to ramp up the sanctions significantly, they have been very modest to date. Ramping them up significantly and providing much more assistance to the ukrainian government. I think those are the two observes, two options. Schieffer bob orr or, he thinks the answers here are going to come from an intelligence investigation, not a crime scene investigation, as it were, is it possible now that they are hauling off these black boxes, the bodies and so forth are being moved, obviously they had to be moved, just for health reasons, are we going to what are we going to find out here . I agree with mike, there is going to be intelligence driven. What the crash scene can do for us is validate intelligence finding. If we get access, independent verifiable access to the wreckage you can look for tail tell signs of pitting and high explosive residue on the plane skin and look for the way the metal has buckled, those things would confirm a missile strike which we already know happened. The other thing is much has been made about the black box it is rebels have paraded them through the field now, apparently they y are in donetsk and maybe in a a root to the International Treaty organization. But the fact of the matter is the black box accounts do very little other than to confirm it was a normal flight and a sudden cessation of data, consistent with a High Altitude explosion. Schieffer what about this circumstantial evidence . Well, the 11 surface to air missiles from two places one they could have captured them from the Ukrainian Military when they were seizing Ukrainian Military bases or they could have gotten them from the russians. U. S. Intelligence believes it can account for all of the sa 11s belonging to the Ukrainian Military, so that leaves russia, and now there is evidence that the sa 11s have actually been seen. Moving across the border from the separatist held area of the ukraine into russia. It adds up to a circumstantial case, but a circumstantial case. Schieffer so what is next . So what is next is what does Vladimir Putin do . I think the fact he has disappeared for the last several days is interesting. It means he is trying to figure out what his next step is. And what do we do and what do the europeans do . And as secretary said we are in conversations with them. Schieffer could this in some way backfire on the russians . As i think probably the shootdown of that Korean Airliner by the soviets did. I mean, World Opinion seemed to change after that. I think that was, bob, a turning point in the cold war, because it really demonstrated to the world what the soviet union was all about. I think that this event has the potential to make, tell the world what the world is all about, he is a thug and he is a bully. I think one thing about the crime scene part of this, as i mentioned before, bob, is that Missile Launch search long gone, it is not there anymore. And the wreckage has been picked through and cherry picked to a degree that mr. Putin can leave the rest of it there and it cant tell us a definitive story so this has already been corrupted to the point that the fizz capita even less important than it would have been otherwise. Schieffer what can we expect from our side, david . Well, mike mentioned increased aid to ukraine, right now, the u. S. Is providing socalled nonlethal military equipment to the Ukrainian Military and the obvious ramp up would be to start providing them with lethal, but when we ask that question on friday, the answer was, no consideration is being given to providing ukraine with lethal weaponry that they could use against the russians or the separatists. Schieffer all right. Thank you all, we will be back with, in one minute with a lot more face the nation. New york rubiconing man peter king, talks to us about the Homeland Security and, he is joining us from new york. You heard the secretary, you just heard our discussion, congressman. Isnt this coming down to, we need to decide whether these people, the russians were behind this or not . And the question i ask the secretary, well, what else do we need to know here . Bob, i agree with you, i think secretary kerry laid out the case against russia, there can be no reasonable doubt now that russia was involved, that putin was involved, by supplying of thugs, like the ukrainianroup separatist juice to bear responsibility for what happens after that. Now, this is a game changer. I think that is the point that the u. S. And our western allies have to make clear to putin, that the rules of the game have now changed. He has violated civilized norms and i think we have to engage severe economic sanctions and symbolic like cancelng why shous be going in the world cup to moscow . Why should for instance, areikat to have landing rights so but putin is not allowing access to the flight site so long as the crime scene there is being totally polluted this man shows he is incapable of functioning in the civil lized world and going back to the days of stalin and khrushchev and brzezinski me the way he is responding to a crisis he calls and which everyone knows he did and yet he goes underground, this is what a mafia mob does, what a goon does, not a world leader, not someone in the civil lized world. Schieffer well, you point out, cancelling air not flights to the United States. Is exactly one of the things Ronald Reagan did he stopped all negotiating on all fronts after the soviet shot down that korean plane and he also turned away aeroflot flights into the United States and is a that ban stayed in effect three years but do you think even that would have an impact on mr. Putin because right now, nothing we have done so far seems to have any influence whatsoever on what he is doing. Bob, i think it would if western allies went along with y european nations, i have to give Prime Minister David Cameron of the uk tremendous credit, and in his statement he put out today he was very critical of the other European Countries who somehow want to go back to a type mentality and assume this will disappear and go away. It is not they have to stand up to putin, so we have western allies, european allies go along with this, cooperate with us, and a impose severe sanctions and give cameron for leading the way in europe and, in fact, we could have our people just stop putting tout names and locations of all of the Bank Accounts that putin and his goons, you know, where their money is hidden, all of the stolen assets, hidden around the world by the russians, we have been playing by the rules with someone who is really the ultimate dirty fighter and to me, there is a moral equivalency he is not part of the civilized nation. Schieffer well, congressman king, thank you so much and we will be back in a moment with some personal thoughts. Schieffer on the evening news, i was making the point that there was so much turmoil in so many places that you could make the argument the world was more unstable today than it had been at the height of the cold war with the soviet union, the next day the airliner was shot down. Someone asked me if i could remember a time when the country faced so many complex problems at once. Well, of course i can. The good news, if there is any these days, is that the country has survived many crises. The United States is a tough old bird. Still, that hardly lessens the danger of these days. The shooting down of an airliner, the kidnapping of innocence that, israel, the fragmenting of a that received almost no attention this week. Attention in each of these places are events that could trigger wider wars. Overnight we found out more about the downing of the airliner, but the question now is what should the United States do if we find the russians are directly responsible . First, we must not draw red lines we are unable or unwilling to enforce. But we must convey to the russian leader in public and private in ways he can understand that such behavior endangers our National Interests and security and cannot be tolerated and what penalty he can expect if it continues. Back in a minute. Cairo, bunk yes moon is u. N. Secretary is on his way and the palestinian president mahmoud abbacy think he is in qatar and will also be heading to cairo, i suspect that cairo is going to be the scene of the action. And the purpose is to achieve a ceasefire, obviously, and what that requires above all is for hamas to decide that it is in its interests to stop firing those rockets. Well, so far, hamas doesnt seem to be answering to anyone. We know Mahmoud Abbas asked the question, why are you sending these rockets into israel . Even he as head of the Palestinian Authority is questioning them. Who can get their attention and get it stopped . Well, it is the real question at this moment. The egyptians have kind of a choke hold on gaza and they could influence it by being willing to open the passages, one of hamass demands, but they dont seem to be keen 0 to let hamas off the hook of il hamas and reestablishing the Palestinian Authoritys control. And that leads to a renewed effort to resolved the palestinianisraeli conflict. Ambassador thank you so much we appreciate it and wish you all the best in trying to resolve this thing. We will be right back with our panel of analysts in a moment. D to his counterparts and read them the riot act but it is unclear if that does anything because a all of the diplomatic engagement at that level is not successful. Charlie rose was told the other day that lethal aid should be happening and going to the ukrainian government. There has been support among policy makers in the pentagon and policy makers but unclear white house is moving from the position they just dont want to go there quite yet. So i think sanctions and this