This week on press pass, how the 1988 president ial election rewrote the ground rules of modern politics revealing the stories behind the strategic missteps in do youukakis campaign. Its in above the fray. Robbie joins me now. Welcome to press pass. Thank you for having me. Ive known you for a long time. Youve been obsessed with this moment that there are different moments that sort of change the trajectory of how we fight political campaigns. The moment you were trying to capture here is what . I think the idea is that in 1988 george bush and Michael Dukakis, neither of them were especially compelling as a candidate. Early on the bush team decided rather than raise their positive, their approval they had to attack dukakis to raise his negatives, make him just disqualify him as a candidate. What happened was you saw this election where you had one side using negative attacks and trying to undercut the opponent and the other guy trying to run what he called a positive campaign. He did not respond to the charges that were leveled at him, and, of course as we know they stuck. It was an election where you have one guy i think the best someone said at the time that the american voting public they like someone who fights dirty over someone who doesnt fight back at all. Going through this and you have this nice interesting, long sitdown with Michael Dukakis today, looking back at circa 1988. He was going to be a steady hand and in many ways this was roger ails campaign and they knew it was tough to run for a third term in a row, so they had to do something drastic since it looked like dukakis was going to win. He was running 17 points ahead at the time of the convention. What does he say went wrong . He doesnt blame bush anymore, does he . Hes actually blaming himself. Right, and his ability to reflect and analyze what must have been a very difficult election i dont think you see that in most losing president ial candidates. Usually they come up with some rationale that makes them feel better about why they lost it wasnt necessarily their fault. What Michael Dukakis does is he owns it and says its my fault. We did not counter the charges that were being leveled at us. I did not respond. In fact he says i wasnt really paying attention to the bush campaign. And on the one hand you know its admirable that he wanted to run what he called a positive campaign but there is no such thing as a one size fits all president ial campaign. Thats right. You need to tailor it to the guy youre running against. Thats what bush did to him but thats not what he did back. Therefore, you saw him go from a 7point lead in late july to losing by 8 points. Thats a 25 swing in just three months. It was interesting just watching again, the attacks he says he didnt Pay Attention to them but boy, did he take them in personally the attack on the medical rumors. He was obsessed with this. That clearly impacted him. And he wanted to do the power walk. And i vividly actually remember the power walk and thought it felt eyerollish. I dont think that many people actually remember what happened and remember this was 88, so tom eagleton who dropped from the ticket he was still in peoples minds, and he had been dropped from mcgoverns ticket because he electroshock therapy. There were rumors by the lisch campaign and somebody asked the president of what he made of these rumors. And instead of dismissing them or what have you, not get involved reagan says i wouldnt pick on an invalid. So in effect youve got the most powerful leader in politics in this country and Michael Dukakis, by the way s convinced that reagan did it on purpose. Obviously, were never going to know if thats true. If it was, maybe it was very savvy of the republican campaign. But in this case it lent credibility of what was an unsubstantiated rumor, right . So when dukakis was asked about it he had an opening. He could have punched back. He could have attacked reagan from a defensive position and i think most people would have rooted for him if he had done that. Right. Especially because there was no merit to the charge that was being leveled at him. And instead, he said i dont blame president reagan. He made a mistake. He misspoke. He blamed the press. Eventually what he did, as he says in the film he lost 8 or 10 points within a week. He challenged the press to what he called a rigorous 3mile power walk. And he would do this thing where, its 1988 you pull your socks up to your knees, you got the short shorts and he had these what he called the heavy hand weights, right . So he was in Denver Colorado and to push back at this idea that hes physically and mentally weak he does a power walk. Now, i dont know if that was, you know enough to put that to bed, but the press certainly stopped asking him about it. Well be back. More from will robbie in this interesting documentary in just a moment. 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The whole issue of dukakis not fighting back not being a fighter against unfair attacks crystallized the debate. The infamous bernard shaw question from cnn, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you submit the Death Penalty . It was his personal reaction that he just didnt pknow how to show emotion. The first debate went well for dukakis. He more or less landed a few punches on bush. He was ticking up but not enough to come back. So there was a lot of pressure on him for the second debate. Now, when i spoke to him about it and when i spoke to his former the guy who prepped him, which is actually tom donnelin pumped every democratic nominee for these debates for years, he had a he had gone on the today show and it was in the air that he needed to show some sort of emotional connection. And one of the things in the film that we found was that he had gone on the today show and said im very passionate about a lot of things including my family. And so it was sort of ironic that when the first question out of the gate remember this was, you know welcome to the debate. First question mike dukakis, Kitty Dukakis was the first thing. You would expect a moderator would sort of save the best for last or whatnot. And, of course the other moderators including aun dra mich Andre Mitchell had asked him not to ask that question. It was a controversial question. He answered that question like he had answered the question a thousand times before. Answering the Death Penalty question. Right. He did not address what everyone wanted him to do or make that emotional connection. He had the opportunity and he missed it. Lets contrast it for instance, to newt gingrich. John king opens the debate about his personal life about accusations he lashed out and shamed the press. Shamed the press. If Michael Dukakis had shamed the press if he had done that opportunity, it probably would have done exactly what he was trying to do at that time which is show he was a passionate person about many things including his family. Showing some emotion. There is a great Walter Mondale anecdote he loved to tell. He called up George Mcgovern and asked him, when do you get over losing the presidency and mcgovern quipped, ill let you know when you do. As Michael Dukakis gotten over it . After the election, he was able to rather than wallow he went back to a day job. He did. In his concession speech he talked about imagine youre talking to the most hardcore supporters youve had, and theyre disappointed obviously. In the last scene in the film you hear him say that this is after being walloped. He says politics is a noble profession. I dont want you to be discouraged, i want you to be encouraged. From the getgo i think he was able to sort of put the hard feelings aside and sort of think of it in a more and this is very Michael Dukakis think of it in an analytical sense. He would say if he had a nickel for every person that came up to him in a supermarket who said youre nothing like you portrayed in 1988 you would be a rich man. I think it hurt but unlike other candidates hes able to address why he lost. And yet there is going to be some democrats who dont have sympathy for dukakis for one reason, including a guy named joe biden. Because in the primary, Michael Dukakis campaign showed they were willing to play dirty, they were willing to play lowball. It was the Dukakis Campaign that created the infamous tape that alleged that joe biden was plague plaguerizing a speech in mt. Kenneth, but it was below the belt. Heres what came across to individuals watching that. Kennicks speech which had to do with his upbringing it sounds like joe biden appropriates kennicks life story. Maybe its a coincidence that kennicks family did x and bidens family also did x does he have regrets on that . What he says in the film and what may have surprised you when you saw it he says so what. And he ultimately says that he made a mistake in letting go the Campaign Manager who released that tape. John sasso was the main guy. John sasso was his guy friday. He was the righthand man. For many he was the person that translated Michael Dukakis into someone that voters would actually like and that was probably a very big loss. Because for dukakis, who ran a great primary campaign after that he didnt pivot into general election mode. And there is some debate as to whether sasso had been there, would he have done a better job of turning the campaign to george bush and running a better general election campaign. Its a fascinating documentary. Weve had closer president ial elections, but that is still one of the, when you think about it through the totality of 88, one of the great upsets that dukakis didnt win. Robbie its very interesting than more people may realize. Thats all for our conversation today, but you can find this in past