Really fascinated by the couch cash, neckties, watches, and even took 20,000 improperly out of a fund that was meant to go to his mothers healthcare. How do you wrap your mind around what was going here . If anybody should have known this can come back to bite you, he should have known. Right. Cognitive dissonance is just beyond the pale here. Its stunning to the degree of these charges. Now, again, we know there are allegations, there are charges, innocent until proven guilty, blah, blah, blah. But with that being said, the case that the government has laid out before us is more than disconcerting and disheartening for generations of people and for every citizen. And not just that. For all his adas, for the police department, for every conviction thats come underneath. I mean, his purview, this is not a new d. A. , a new day that he gave us eight years ago when he said, okay, im gonna do things differently. This is probably one of the worst that we have seen if these allegations prove even if half of them prove true. This is, like, really pitiful for philadelphia politics. Id say two things, tam. First of all, its very tawdry. I mean, its selling your office for a couch and a mexican vacation. You come rather cheap, allegedly. But the second point i would make is i thought it pretty notable that the u. S. Attorneys office has put bob zauzmer on this case. Bob was lead prosecutor in the vince fumo case. Hes one of the best in the country. The guys a fantastic lawyer. And hes gonna, you know, uncover everything in this case. Hes gonna put it together beautifully if it goes to trial. Its a real uphill struggle here for seth if he thinks hes gonna try this case. Well, i think what i also find myself looking at is if you look at the playing field, theres so many Public Officials who have gone down for public corruption. You know theres always somebody watching, somebody listening. And the idea that youre communicating with somebody glibly via text, thats communication that can be saved and followed. Right. It just makes no sense to me. Well, i will say this. Ill add to the cognitive dissonance. In philadelphia, its a onehorse town. And where republicans have a onehorse town, this has gone on 65 years or whatever. These guys only answer to this internal democratic chieftain sort of thing. And if theyre okay with that, i think as crazy as it is, they forget about the feds are still out there. Case in point, i was a judge of a dance contest, which on its surface is crazy. [ laughter ] im standing there talking in and of itself. [ laughter ]. With a glistening Seth Williams, who was a contestant and was great. And over my shoulder i get tapped to come over and have a drink with us at our table chaka fattah all at once. And another guy in the dance contest i think is a former felon whos still, you know, a main player here. What a night. What a night. [ laughter ] i was a good judge, but i wasnt bought. No couches. But the point is, in philadelphia, i think these guys start to forget it because they see it all around. I think its rampant. Yeah, but lets pick up his point about it being a onehorse town and about being democrat. Still, Seth Williams had to know he went after people who would have been seen as sacred cows. Some of those people that he prosecuted he knew he was making enemies, people who would love for him to have some of this come back on him. So you would think he would be even more careful. Yeah, by the way, they did offer dom a lawn chair. [ laughter ] and he said no. Barcalounger. There you go. He said no. Tam, to your point, yes. I mean, this is the greeks had a word for it, right . It was hubris. Its the tragic flaw where everyone else this is the part where the narrator steps out and says, watch what happens here. You wont believe it. And take the lesson. Yes. And its everything. Its the tawdry notion of it. That is baubles, really. Its small. Its chump change that you took. That you went on twitter. These are the sorts of things where if the charges had come out and you had not seen that evidence, youd say, im not so sure. But if indeed this is what he tweeted and then add to it, this looks like a pattern, theres something thats part of the culture. I think doms on to something in saying that if one party happens to rule for as long as this one has and the normal checks and balances of stepping before the electorate arent there, suddenly you start to think that everythings okay because, ill withstand it. Well, lets come at this from a different way for the lawyer who is here. Do you think in some way he thought he could pass this off as these were just my buddies. You know, friends give each other things, and, you know, i gave you a christmas present. Is that bad . No. Right. Well, as you know, tam, im a former federal prosecutor, but i also have for the last 20 years been a defense attorney, so i represent a lot of people in situations like this. And i continue to be stunned by what people will say and do, otherwise smart people, on tape or in a twitter message. Some of its human frailty, hubris, arrogance. But having said that, the u. S. Supreme court kind of gave politicians who were looking at it some hope about this friendship defense in the case overturning the convictions of Virginia Governor bob mcdonnell. Right. Who allegedly took or the jury found 150,000 in gifts and other things, rolex watch and all that. And the court found that, yeah, you took all this stuff, but it was a friendship relationship, and you have to really commit an official act for it to be a bribe. It cant just be, ill get you a meeting. That was looked at very, very closely by a lot of politicians and a lot of prosecutors, of which seth is one a prosecutor. And a politician. And i think it does kind of maybe, you think, well, im allowed to have a friend. Yeah, but i tell that friend to call me. Dont text me or write me on email. And im allowed to use his beach house. To jims point, the question will be, what official acts were done . Right. Right. There has to be the quid pro quo. And thats whats alleged in the indictment, that there were quid pro quos. Theres gonna be a case, and were gonna hear all the ins and outs. And seths attorney has basically said, just because we have these salacious charges doesnt mean its gonna be proven in a court of law, but beyond that, the court of Public Opinion, and lets not lose the public with this. I know we talk about elected officials and parties and the bosses or whatever, but the people still have a voice with this, and if you do advocate there have been rumors around for a long time. Theres not been a lot of engagement from the public side. Its almost like, oh, well. Everybody does it. So, yeah, well, yeah, well, yeah, well. And this is what we end up with. The criminal Justice System is too important, particularly in philadelphia, particularly among people of color for this type of taint to even exist. There should be no question at all when justice is dispensed that maybe this person is on the take here or whatever. That shouldnt even be part of the equation, yet it is. You are so right about that, and it gets back to the next issue, which is he should resign. Thats my next question. Absolutely. But if the average person isnt saying walking up to him saying, you should resign, its what happens. Of course the david thornburghs and others say, you should resign, is he gonna resign . Well, you know, theres some speculation that he needs the salary, which is pretty sad. Id look to his own words. He called for Justice Eakin to resign because of the pornographic email scandal, and Justice Eakin wasnt even charged with any crime in that matter. He showed terrible judgment in what he did. Seth called a press conference and demanded his resignation. I just think maybe he should be consistent with his own views. But there is not a huge public outcry, i dont think, on this. No. People that really Pay Attention to this stuff and have the time at all, theyre appalled, and people are making the cases we just did. This tarnishes the Justice System. But i dont see people other than what he allegedly did with his mother. That type of thing seems to grab people that are going through this pretty quickly, and its being in the public eye and everywhere you go people know you, that everywhere you go now, people are looking at you. And everybodys aware. Wouldnt the weight of that make you want to pull back and say, let me step out and deal with this . I wouldnt be surprised if you start hearing voices, particularly female voices, that start calling for him to resign. I mean, if you go back to the whole issue with his spat with Kathleen Kane and with fina and the whole porngate type thing, he made a lot of enemies, disappointed a lot of women, basically saying, okay, im gonna defend these guys. They need to stay in my office. Theres nothing to see here, blah, blah, blah. And then you go from that to the allegations and rumors about infidelities. And then from that to now these allegations about his mothers healthcare. I would not be surprised if you start to hear voices from women saying, you know what . You need to sit down, and you need to sit down now. But couldnt he ignore those voices . And isnt the playbook here, as we saw with kane and we saw with fattah, you ride this out till the gavel comes down. Not when an election is coming up, though, because see but hes not running. No, its not that hes running, but if you take those voices and you galvanize that with an official or someone whos running for that office, that amplifies those voices as far as a call. It creates legal problems, though, right . Hes the head of the office. What happens if next week the District Attorneys Office charges someone with stealing money from their elderly mother or, you know, some other financial fraud crime . I as a defense attorney, id be running right into court and saying, your honor, this case is tainted. That is an excellent id been wondering about that. It could throw the whole office into turmoil. It really doe so were talking about whats might be doing for purposes of attorney, if he resigns . Ashes n innocent man, hesrruption cases, if you work out of a deal. Right. The government would insist upon a resignation asl. Mmhmm. I dont know if Seth Williams had a deal or not. There were rumors that he did have one and that he rejected it in the 11th hour. And thats why the government moved forward with an indictment. But normally there would be for the sanctity of the office, you could also say, listen, i dont want to be a distraction because thimportant. Im gonna resign, and ill focus on my case. I want the district attorneys fi that would probably be looked upon favorably on the othersea , you know, a lot of people out there love the show the wire, and theres a famous case [ laughs ] where to begin with the wire. Theres a famous case where you think that a public official is going down, and in the end, he beats the charges. Is there a chance that Seth Williams could beat these charges . Even if he beats the charges, again, thats the official charges. As far as the Public Opinion charges, those are gonna be out there. That stain is pretty permanent at this point. But you always have a chance in front of a jury. In philadelphia at that. In a case put together by the fbi, the u. S. Attorneys office for the eastern district, which is one of the best in the country, by one of the top prosecutors in that office whos been there for 25 years and doesnt lose, [scoffs] i would tell the client, you know, you better think about resolving this case. Lets go back to an issue that was raised by dom and by ed, which is the general state of politics in philadelphia. We saw a special election up in northeast philadelphia. Only the republican was actually on the ballot. Right. And there are all these questions about how a writein candidate could have won. Does the attorney general need to get involved . Were there some discrepancies . Does all of this call into question kind of even more what happens when you really are a onehorse town, that people either dont get involved or they immediately question what comes out of any of the elections or proceedings . Of course. I think they got 198 votes, the republican that was on the ballot, which was i think 8 , and they only have 5 registration. So he overperformed. Were all in. They took out the one guy who may have won in the writein e didnt live in the district. There was a felon who didnt acknowledge and was out of that, and they started to throw up their hands and say, people want to be with the Democrat Party in philadelphi candidate i mean, at least one of the writein candidates, lets not forget, has a longestablished relationship and reputation there from the kensington rights union. Me recognition, where the republican candidate did not have name recognition. So, yes, i would believe that to look into it, but dont be surprised in a special election interest, that youre gonna have someone to say, oh, theyre a but theyre my kind of crazy, ss it. I think the allegation is people were out there with tables saying this is a special election. Its all writein. Just step over here and write in. If youre asking that theres been some points made earlier maybe with this onehorse town, one party breeds corruption, i would take maybe the unpopular view. I dont think thats really the nut of the problem. Look, th Democratic Party in theres all kinds of factions,ie decision and appoints each be af th philadelphia had great candidates and good issues, then candidates. I mean, thats the nature. You do have great issues, but okay, you guys can talk about it during the break. Well take a short break and come back. [ laughter ] inside story is presented by temple university. Remarkable change isnt easy, but for those who take charge, it comes naturally. Explore temples impact. Visit temple. Edu impact. Fios is not cable. Were wired differently. Maybe thats why weve been ranked highest in Customer Satisfaction by jd power 4 years in a row. And now you can love fios too. Get 150 meg internet, tv and phone. All for 79. 99 per month, for the first year with a twoyear agreement. Its the only internet with equal upload and download speeds. Cable only offers upload speeds that are a fraction of the download speeds. Plus get hbo for a year and free multiroom dvr service for two years. And Verizon Wireless customers can stream tv on the fios mobile app, datafree. Get the best. Go to getfios. Com welcome back to inside story. Lets talk a little bit about ice and customs enforcement. This week, we saw the planners of the Cinco De Mayo festival down in south philly say this may you wont see that, that too many people are afraid of coming out thinking that there could be immigration raids during the proceedings. But we also saw the Customs Department come out and say, were putting out a list every week talking about the people who are not cooperative with us, and, philadelphia, youre on the list because of three cases, cases in which philadelphia says, we never knew you were looking for these people. We cant even find the third case that youre talking about. But, to me, its more the precedent that theyre putting out a list every week. Is that significant as in, hey, were keeping tabs on what is and isnt happening . Yeah, i think it is. Travis county, which is san antonio, had 146 on this list that they let go during a short period of time. So i think and you see philadelphia and others pushing back now. The bottom line when i read this is, theres chaos because of all this illegal stuff and ice detainers and not, and whats happening is, either knowingly or unknowing, people get between the cracks of the system. Well, what the city would say is, we dont have to hold these people for you. Well tell you theyre here, and theyre being released. Couldnt ice just say, okay, were gonna post a couple of guys outside. We know people are coming out this week. Why have the big back and forth with the city, or why not just get a warrant . Theres been some pushback, i believe, in california, where some judges had an order say that there were ice agents trolling the courthouse, just hanging out in the courthouse for people who came in for hearings or, you know, paid a fine for something or other. And the judges thought that was really repugnant and issued orders, ordering these agents to not be in the courthouse for those purposes. So heres the problem. Im glad you mentioned california. You have kate steinle, this young woman whos with her father in San Francisco, shot in the back and killed by someone who had been deported seven times. San francisco had him in custody. The feds said, we want him. San francisco said, were not holding him. They let him go. After that, the police chief from San Francisco says, id have done the same thing. Look, if after something as emotional and incendiary as Kate Steinles murder doesnt get you to even pause to rethink what you were doing, even if you dont even if youre not going to change, have the smarts for public consumption not to appear to be so callous. You have this case in maryland now. Right, and people but this is the issue here. Jim kenney would say, emotional, not emotional, bring a warrant. Ill keep them if you bring me a warrant. Why not bring the warrant . Just get the warrant. This is really a case of whos gonna show who whos in charge, when it really boils down to it. True the federal government should be responsible for whenever it comes to customs enforcement, but it should be a Fair Assessment of customs enforcement. What a lot of people are seeing when you go to the Cinco De Mayo issue, its not just that people are thinking, oh, im gonna get deported. Theyre also thinking, im gonna get harassed if i go to a school, if i look a certain way. Theres a culture of fear that has been offered by all these actions. And heres the thing these are heinous crimes that happen. Crimes are crimes. But there are also a lot of other heinous crimes that happen. The attention thats being given to this in a percentage as far as other types of crimes that are happening seems disproportionate for the average person. Well, i also would say you cant you wouldnt enforce any laws. You cant make Public Policy on one or two egregious cases, ed. Theres more than that. But its many more than that. Theres many more than that. And, again, i just take a look at this unfortunate rockville, maryland. This guy didnt happen to be there. Hes 18 years of age as a freshman there. He can be there until hes 24. I mean, its just a warped system. But youre thinking egregious cases. And when you cast that broad net, youre picking up enforcing local authorities to hold people that may be marginally involved, that may have committed some minor offense. And in the view of whatever ice agents are in that area, they may have a very screened view of who should be deported. It changes from region to region. They should be deported. People who violated the law by coming here illegally. Well, i dont think were doing that. Drunk driving is one that, i think, is where the contention is. But back to your point, i do think somethings wrong with ice, too. Theyre not as proactive as i would like or dont have enough people that these are serious crimes. They have to do a better job here against philadelphia in complying with this for now and pushing back. Philadelphias got to do a better job. You really want to let dangerous felons out . But i can say multiple things to that, but im gonna go to jim and say the Public Perception when people start saying, were not gonna do something we always do. Everybody go out and have a good time on Cinco De Mayo. Were not doing it. Does the public care, or does that stay with people that a way of life thing has now changed . No, i think people care. Look, there are hardline people on both sides of the issue, and people that are way over on the antiimmigrant thing wont care. Theyll say, fine, because those people should stay home. But i think people who care about the vitality of the city and the diversity of the city would care about that. Quickly lets talk about the soda tax. We saw pepsi say, were pulling 2liter sodas and 12packs. At the same time, we saw the second set of figures that have outstripped the projections. In this case, they thought they would take in 5. 9 million. They got in 6. 4 million. So somebodys out there buying a lot of soda. Whos winning on this argument . But its not just soda. Its sweetened drinks. Sweetened drinks. So there are 4,000 different items. But is the mayor winning on this, that even with the tax, people are still buying these items soda, sweetened drinks, you name it. Its being normalized. Im the biggest critic, but i look at the adversary and i give credit when due. He is winning on this. He is presaying that, i will bludgeon you when i think somethings completely unfair. You will give in. Youre creatures of habit or you dont have transportation and all that, and i dont care. As long as we get somewhat enough that my grand scheme will work, hes winning. Do you think people will care about not being able to get the 2liter or the 12pack of soda . No, they made some irrational choice here to say, ill buy a smaller soda because its less tax. I dont get it. But it depends on where you live and what kind of consumer you are. Right. If you, lets say, have an institution where youre selling soda, youll buy it outside the city. But i dont get the sense that the mayors paying any political price for this. Well, i do get this, that if i dont break now, you guys will have no time for your inside stories. Well be right back. At ikea, we believe that everything you need should be within reach. In an affordable dream kitchen that works as hard as you do. Save up to 20 at the ikea kitchen event. At ikea, we believe that everything you need should be within reach. In an affordable dream kitchen that works as hard as you do. Save up to 20 at the ikea kitchen event. Inside story is presented by temple university. Remarkable change isnt easy, but for those who take charge, it comes naturally. Explore temples impact. Visit temple. Edu impact. Time now for our insiders inside stories. We will start with you, nia. Well, there are a lot of people who continue to bemoan this presidency, but one set of people who are not are newspapers. If you look at the stocks right now, newspaper stock is going up. People are actually reading again, whether its digital media, print media, what have you. One element of democracy is coming back into vogue, and we do need a strong press for a strong democracy. Dom. I have a fun one. Trigger warnings are all over the place, and now some colleges wont allow scales to be there. It triggers people about their weight, et cetera. I had an experience, and the tip of the week is this i went to a doctor. The nurse said, youre taking your shoes off. Men, when they get weighed, dont do that. Only women. Take your shoes off, guys. Itll help your selfesteem. Itll save you a couple of pounds. Exactly. All right. Jim. Tam, the Trump Presidency has had at least one good effect. According to report from the Democratic National committee this week, a surge in people wanting to run for office, particularly women. All right. We will end with you, ed. Justice sam alito was at the union league this past week for the liberty series. 650 people came. It was an absolutely spectacular evening with a very thoughtful jurist, much along the lines of the one whos about to come onto a court. And i wonder who organized that event. [ laughter ] lets give some kudos to you for making sure that happened. All right, thank you for joining us. We hope youre having a great sunday. Well see you back here for inside story. Im nydia han along with gray hall. Chaos inside a cincinnati nightclub when people armed with guns open fire in a crowd of party goers. Well have the the latest on the developing story. Whats next now that the republicans replacement for the Affordable Care act failed. A man is sent to the hospital with serious injuries, details on what happened. Those stories and more next on action news. Good afternoon it is sunday, march 26 im nydia han along with gray hall. Heres some of the stories peer following on action news. A fastmoving fire overcame two residents in north philadelphia. Now, both are