B.b.c. World Service. Has now had more than 4000000 confirmed cases of the coronavirus and there's fear that the pandemic is spreading more in the countryside. And. Reflect on why the pandemic has exposed the West. You're talking to in this hour and. It's a very big day for slow music as John Cage's famous composition gets a note change for the 1st time in 7 years will be explained. After the. Hello I'm Debbie rests with the v.c. News President Trump has said that the illness of the opposition leader. Is tragic but declined to condemn the Russian government for it mysen Avani is in a coma in hospital in Germany experts there say they have evidence that he was attacked with a Save You know the agent. Is in Washington that's a system and received supports from some trump administration officials including the head of the White House National Security Council President Trump who had been criticized for not speaking about the case earlier said that he would study the evidence so I don't know exactly what happened we haven't had any proof yet but I will take a look it is interesting that everybody's always mentioning Russia but I think probably China at this point is the nation that you should be talking about much more so he stopped short of criticizing President Vladimir Putin which has been a constant passons throughout Mr Trump's president say President Trump is facing growing anger over accusations that he disparaged fallen American soldiers as loses his rival in November's election Joe Biden described the reported remarks as disgusting and cold in Mr Trump to apologize to the families of service personnel who killed some veterans and relatives have also condemned the president who has vehemently denied making the comments the Atlantic magazine 1st published the allegations but all that media outlets including Fox News have since said they've confirmed the story. The number of confirmed cases of coded 19 in India has passed 4000000 the surge infections in India is outpacing every other country in the world as the virus spreads beyond major cities into smaller towns and rural areas will get eliminated is in Mumbai the government has been highlighting that the number of deaths in India compared to the size of its populations is lower than other countries badly hit so far there are only speculative theories for why that's the case but if the virus continues to spread even with a low death rate hundreds of thousands of Indian lives are at risk and another lock down is not an option for an economy already in turmoil and viral mental protest is in Britain have blockaded printing presses in an attempt to prevent several major newspapers from reaching new stems the protesters from the campaign group extinction rebellion used vehicles to block roads outside print works at several sites in Britain our correspondent Andy Moore says the demonstrators accuse the newspapers which include the sun Financial Times and Daily Mail of failing to report on the climate emergency they say they're protesting against the pollution of the debate on climate change that these papers are not covering the ecological aversions see properly they also say there's 5 billionaires are the majority of the u.k. Papers and it's just not proper debate on climate issues and reporting you're listening to the world news from the b.b.c. New research suggests at least 550 mammal species may become extinct this century unless conservation efforts are stepped up a study published in the journal Science advances suggests that humans are almost entirely responsible for the mammals that have died out in past decades the scientists say hundreds of species could be saved with targeted and effective conservation programs many believe that a 6th mass extinction of species is looming. A court in the United States has rejected an attempt by the former Peruvian president 102 later to avoid extradition to his home country lawyers for Mr 2 later who had argued that the Peruvian government had failed to formally charge him with bribery and other crimes as required Mr to later who fled to California is wanted in Peru for allegedly taking $35000000.00 in bribes and American academic who confessed to lying about being black will not teach classes this semester the university has confirmed Jessica crew can associate professor whose work focuses on Africa and the African Diaspora admitted in a blog post on Thursday that she was in fact a white Jewish woman from Kansas City George Washington University added that many students and staff were upset by Miss Craig's disclosure. The British athlete Mo Farah has broken the world record for the longest distance from in one hour and a track meeting in Brussels the 4 time Olympic champion ran more than 21.3 kilometers Jason cake reports in the Margie empty stadium with crowd noise being pumped through the speakers most Sarah who won gold medals at 5 and 10000 meters at each of the last 2 or lympics completed 21 kilometers and 330 metres 45 metres more than the record set back in 2737 year old run a secured his 1st world record outdoors on his return to the track after 3 years away b.b.c. Nice. It's 6 minutes past 7 g.m.t. Welcome to Weekend from the b.b.c. World Service with me Julia Morricone with me throughout the program Isabelle Hilton journalist and broadcaster c.e.o. Of China dialogue which describes itself as an independent nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting a common understanding of China's environmental challenges and Chris Smith who's a consultant medical virologist lecturer at the University of Cambridge also the host of the radio show the Naked Scientist we'll start this hour in India which has now had more than 4000000 confirmed cases of corona virus and nearly 70000 people have died of the infection in the country each day India currently has the highest number of new cases of coded 19 in the world all this comes as the country is trying to open up further its economy source shop contraction earlier this week from Mumbai The B.B.C.'s India correspondent yoga in my report was. A bugle being played at the state funeral of India's former President Pranab Mukherjee who died earlier this week his coffin was carried by family members dressed in blue protective suits. He tested positive for covert 19 while in hospital for a brain surgery his death an indicator of the country's continuing struggle with containing 90. The national capital Delhi had for a while seems like it was coping with the pandemic but now once again cases are rising sharply it is not just the physical. Or mental tiredness happening Dr so many 3 has for months been on the code in 1000 frontline he says exhaustion is wearing down India's doctors and with the numbers rising he's worried that his hospital in Delhi might be overrun you're seeing a 2nd so it's. Not just in Delhi we are seeing soldiers in smaller towns and we are seeing more patients coming to our hospital in Delhi from the smaller known them and we do not have a kind of acidity. And that's a big but so. India is doing more than a 1000000 tests a day but that's not been enough to curb the spread of that 90 the government has been highlighting that the number of deaths in India compared to the size of its population is lower than other countries badly hit so far there are only speculative theories for why that's the case but if the virus continues to spread even with a low death rate hundreds of thousands of Indian lives are at risk and another lock down is not an option for an economy already in turmoil. I assume all eyes are on a vaccine. India is home to the world's biggest Bethy maker at serum Institute of India's factories in 20 millions of doses of 5 coded vaccines including Oxford Astra Zeneca called the Shield are already being produced every month 70 percent of the world's vaccine capacity is from India so naturally India is going to play a. Major role I spoke to the company's chief executive other poor Nabila over a video call he was in London to meet the team at Oxford I asked him how long it would take for a vaccine to come out well I think in about 2 and a half to 3 months there will be vaccines licensed will be the best vaccines but I don't know did 3 to 5 years normally to make a vaccine and we're all rushing it and you're already producing the endorsers with knowing the possibility that it might not work eventually you know how does that work out for you is it worth it. Well there was a very Does difficult decision that I made I didn't want to go back in time a year from now or 2 years from now and realize that if I have just done this we would have had probably a $1000000000.00 more a vaccines every year. Yes a fall in tears have come forward for human trials in India and dozens have already been administered that scene doses even if these processes are successful inoculation more than a 1000000000 people will take a lot of time and money. You're going to live my reporting from Mumbai and we didn't have a chance of hour ago Chris to talk about the vaccine and obviously the point raised there from an Indian perspective how close do you think we are to getting one there are a number of considerations when it comes to any vaccine and we're trying to achieve in about 10 months what normally would take 10 years most pharmaceutical companies agree that they have about a 10 percent chance of making any drug that gets through normal trial processes so the odds are very much stacked against us and we have never made a vaccine against a corona virus let alone this new coronavirus that has worked and done it in such a short time so we are having to do things in a normal hurry and take some risks and some gambles and of course everyone is is hoping that this is going to work they have been a number of setbacks along the way and a number of reasons why people are doubtful that this will materialize one of those reasons is that in trials in America or monkeys of one of the vaccines that was mentioned in that report the monkeys that were immunized were not protect prevented from succumbing to the infection they still caught coronavirus Now they didn't develop severe disease but they still caught it and that's a worry because it means even if we vaccinate people they could still catch the infection although they won't become a civilian Well they could still give it to somebody else who is susceptible and they may become severely and well I'm sure. By your use of the word we because if ever there was a time when you would expect the world to collaborate and come together to try and solve what is such an international problem it is now or but do you get the sense that increasingly this is becoming politicized and that is therefore not advantageous to the wider population I think it's always going to be a political thing but there is enormous collaboration going on internationally still this and and and I think yes and the fact that you heard there that Astra Zeneca a multinational albeit with his headquarters in the u.k. Are manufacturing a vaccine that's been created in the u.k. At the University of Oxford in India and the fact that there are 170 projects going around the world to try to create vaccines 2324 of them in clinical trials I think we've got a lot of irons in the fire and we're in good shape but the thing is it's not going to come down to their Will we one vaccine and that's the one we use because the one vaccine that works very well for instance in a setting like the u.k. Is not going to be the same vaccine that works well in a setting in say rural India or a remote part of an African country because if you have no electricity supply but you can rely on let alone a fridge then a vaccine that needs to be kept cold like the one that we will be creating for the u.k. Is not going to cut it underflow says about you encouraged by that. Yes although of course you know of course I'm encouraged by that but but I'm still very struck by. The amount that we don't know about this fire is and we were talking earlier but the question of asymptomatic cases and mysteries like high levels of of apparent immunity or or or parent antibodies in populations in West Africa where the incidence of the virus doesn't seem to be very high but you have a lot of people who are apparently a center Matic and have been exposed to it to. How this interacts with of with with the vaccine I'm I'm still I think we still have to yet we have yet to understand I took the conversation down the political route a little bit deliberately because of the person we're about to speak to because we've talked about the pandemic at various points through the program but there is political fallout from it certainly debate about that and in a new book The wake up call journalists John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge argue that the crisis is not just highlighted the failures of certain governments but is accelerating a shift in the balance of power from west to east and Adrian Wooldridge is with us welcome Adrian good morning good morning on the Wake-Up Call so it's not just any old wake up call it's the use of the definite article which is quite striking here this is the most important wake up call we have we've faced of recent times absolutely I think what we've seen is with a pandemic is a global sort of examination into how good your government is and the results of that examination are really rather startling because they demonstrate that the West Europe and the United States which is always thought of itself as being sort of ahead of the rest of the world in the head in its capacity that to. Have an effect government has actually failed the examination and the East China and countries in around dates have passed the examination with flying colors so I think what this demonstrates is a really important shift in State Building state affective in a state building capacity around the world I'm surprised you say China has passed with flying colors how do you justify that let's say flying colors might be slightly overstating it China obviously incubated this virus and it's spread much more rapidly than it needed to because China was secretive about it people in with the authorities and we tried to deny the existence of the 1st. And had they been subjected to sort of liberal open institutions had they had a free press they would have been able to do that so they paid a certain price for that their regime that seeks the best but nevertheless once they recognized that there was a virus that they were extremely effective in in controlling its you know they had very vigorous lot lockdowns and the rate of death in China is much lower it is in most western countries and admittedly their figures are slightly dodgy but even if you multiply that the official figures by 10 they're still much lower than they are in the United States or even Germany and to add to your list of those that fall under the heading of the east you would presumably put Taiwan Vietnam South Korea Singapore or others as well Absolutely absolutely I mean it's both undemocratic China and that's an interesting element of this isn't it is absolutely but I mean I think that's just to just to take Think of the difference in the figures in. Seoul which is a very large city a very open city bustling commercial center I think the number of deaths from coronavirus even with this slight resurgence they've recently had is probably. Less than 50 in London it's 6000 in New York it's 20000 there orders of magnitude of difference and I think they there's orders of magnitude reflect the capacity to govern which we haven't gotten they that they have now developed within the West again clearly there are obvious countries that you put under that heading and I can imagine if somebody is listening to this conversation in Auckland for example they might say I want a minute what about New Zealand you know New Zealand has done extremely well there are big variations across the west Germany would be another one job even if you look at Germany. I think the death rate is about 100000000 which is significantly higher than she is in Vietnam significantly higher than she is in South Korea although some parts of the West have done better than others Germany. New Zealand probably in Iraq are partly because it's not Island and finds it easier to control its borders. That the that the West within the West I think the overall performance has not been anything like what you would have expected and to emphasize that you. The this is the result this is a sort of the end point of a historical process 203040 years ago I think we have found the idea that we had lessons to China or Vietnam or South Korea absolutely amazing we were quite confident that our governing capacity was the best in the world it's clearly no longer the best in the world and I think that's the result atrophy on our part and progress on the part of many come countries in. The East in the emerging East that we really need to wake up and pay attention to let me bring my guest in with some thoughts then I'll come back to you of course is about what strikes you as you listen to this. Well I think that it's always useful to draw lessons from the experience of others but it but I I would slightly I think it's a fact to hear that perhaps we should look at before we draw too big a lesson and given that China and Singapore Taiwan South Korea have very different political systems what they have in common they have all dealt with the pandemic very effectively but what they have in common is very recent experience of a serious pandemic in other words SARS which we mentioned earlier which prompted all of them to set up very effective response systems now that was not the case in Britain it wasn't the case in the United States and you know you see at the outbreak of war you see countries that are not necessarily badly governed having to make extraordinary adjustments to different situations and I think that the countries that are listed there are you know had a had a head start in the sense of preparation if you look at Asia as a whole and I know authors are not necessarily responsible for the blurb on their books but there is you know a tendency amongst publishers to draw the. Between the West and Asia Well you know Asia is a very big place and it does include India Pakistan it includes Indonesia Malaysia it includes a lot of places where you know they the system. Hasn't been a very effective systematic response and indeed where economies which is also another part of the argument of this book where economies are pretty mixed picture . In China you know yes there was eventually. As you say rather belatedly a very effective response and it had a very similar system to Taiwan as a result of SARS the difference was that he didn't deploy it for the reasons you mentioned which is that in China reporting bad news to the boss is a career ending moves or people are rather reluctant to do it in Taiwan an open system reporting bad news to the boss is just fine Adrian a quick word on the job you're basically saying East Asia would that be fair to basically yes yes Ysaye sure is what we're talking about but what a lot of this book is about is an attempt to look at Western government and to criticize Western government and I think that what is very striking is that Western government was until not very recently you know undoubtedly on top and now it's not on top it's struggling in various ways and you know it's I think it's unfair to say that well if it hadn't have the sauce crisis so it should be forgiven for being a bit caught there or bit bit candid look at what's happened in Britain let's focus on Britain and what it has done is to reveal a succession of extraordinary failures of government which any functioning system should not should not a reliable from the prime minister knots bothering to attend Cabinet meetings which were supposed to deal with this subject to a failure to learn from other countries to the complete failure of Public Health England. To attempt to produce. Apps internally which which which didn't work which was really a waste of time to read as I liked it Yeah forgive me I just wanna bring Christmas in with the thought of that simply because time is tight Chris a thought is only which is to be fair no one's got Napoles any good at the moment to be honest Germany spent about 20000000 and they don't have one works either. I think Isabelle hit the nail on the head the priming effect of having to live with alongside and having previous experience of dealing with outbreaks that could have run amok or have run amok in the past it really focuses your mind those countries have had to deal with SARS Mark one they have had to deal with in the case of Singapore Malaysia the Nepa virus which caused a big outbreak problem continues to grumble these things make you think we have certain our laurels nothing else what we're all guilty of in Europe because we've been protected by geography and climate for many of these things we haven't had experience of them it hasn't focused our minds in the same way and I think that's allowed us to be a bit laissez faire about a very very brief final word it's not too late for the West to recover you would argue absolutely we have our laurels we have had this wake up call rather to mix metaphors and I think if we do respond we will be able to reinstate our capacity to govern ourselves the book is called a wake up call Adrian thank you very much for coming on Adrian Wooldridge Now before I introduce you to by next final guest Have a listen to this. That is part of the composer John Cage's work as slow as possible on a.s.l. S.p. Played by Christophe boss on the compass. Mission that is due to take 639 years before. The reason this is significant today is that a note change is happening in how pushed out in Germany the man overseeing that change is Professor Reiner knowing about an ethicist social scientist and historian at Hearts University of Applied Sciences and chairman of the Board of Trustees of the John Cage organ Foundation welcome to the program Hello. Long and. Well hello to you what an extraordinary concept tell us about this piece of music as slow as possible yes it's stats actually in 9085 in the American Resistance and change composed piano piece called is the speed and it did means among other things the playing instruction as slow as possible 987 g. Rewrote it for an organ under the title organ to list p. 1998 there was an organ conference untrusting and southern island Germany and there was a discussion about a very very long formants off the streets and in harvest that it's a small town in the middle of Germany and so you know we started our realisation of John h. Aug it is a list p. In the 1st year of the new moon then young in the year 2000. And it continues obviously and today is a big day because somebody plays a new note is that right. Yes the current sound off 5 tones including 26 in food past pipes that's been hurt since the 5th of October to fall than 13 right and today at about 3 o'clock. German time after x. 6 least 6 years and 11 months to be extended by 2 tones it G.'s shop and even at it and this is done in my mind all just going to sitting at the keyboard presumably no no there their little sand backs on the it's not a new it's not a great already it's a little bit. Interims mod I mean the reason I asked I was slightly worried that some organist was going to be sticking to holding the snow down for years but that's clearly no no no no rehab not to not move not enough money to do it normally read the send back send if he can. Take the money from you didn't say how much how much interest is there in this in how Bush got. Every year we have about 10000 visits just to listen to the sound of the op in the form of a high t. Church the last car changing 2013 bus attended by roundabout 1500 people who today because over a Corona regulations be can only let 300 visitors into their shirt this church and another 7 minutes people can follow the call change on a pic or video screen out such wonderful and I suspect a lot will so for you this is an exciting day. Yes very excited and they have a big media interesting rule and yes. It's a little bit busy here. Today in the evening then to go in town and then it's lowest possible well yes which you have to be time sadly is not as slow as possible here because that's has to be the end of the conversation although it's about he wanted a brief over the way just wondered if that meant that church services and suspended for the next 600 yes one quick answer to that right you can still go to church. There's an overture action. Or other in 639. Ok I've got to bring the program to a close I know it's a slow as possible this is not the world we occupy sadly thank you Isabelle Thank you Chris thank you very much for your company as well and for your insights into the current pandemic join me again back tomorrow the same time the latest news of the. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service in the United States is made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media with support from affiliates almost dot info web addresses listeners can look to dot info sites like World ometer is dot info for the latest covert statistics dot info domains are available at Go Daddy dot info. Coming up on the b.b.c. Website it is the sea change this week we meet markedly tax for as the women charged with putting slippy Mayfield's on the map she jazz what it's like to be born into a prominent and prosperous family car she was forced to flee the country cooking Italian food how to overcome an eating disorder Margarita slice in 5 dishes after the nice. B.b.c. News with Debbie rests President Trump has declined to condemn Russia over the poisoning of the opposition leader Alexei Navalny who is in a coma in a hospital in Germany experts there say they have evidence Mr Nouvelle knee was attacked with a nerve agent developed by Soviet Russia but the judge said he had seen no proof that Mr Noel may have been poisoned a number of confirmed cases of covert 19 in India has passed 4000000 Indian Health officials are struggling to stem the surge in the virus as it spreads beyond major cities into smaller towns and rural areas where the 84000 new cases were recorded in the past 24 hours. Scientists are warning that at least $550.00 species of mammal will die out by the end of the century without a major conservation effort and you study suggests that humans are the main cause of the extinction of mammal species over the past 100000 years. The court in the United States has rejected an attempt by the former Peruvian president of $100.00 Toledo to avoid extradition to his home country Mr De Lay to denies allegations that he took $35000000.00 in bribes from a Brazilian construction company Japan's coast to coast guard says it has been forced to stop or search for the crew of a cargo ship that capsized 2 days ago because of an incoming typhoon more than 40 people were working on board the ship which was transporting 6000 live cattle from New Zealand to Japan when it was overturned in an earlier storm. Environmental protest is in Britain have blockaded printing presses in an attempt to prevent several major newspapers from reaching new stands the protesters from the campaign group extinction rebellion accuse the newspapers which include the sun Financial Times and Daily Mail The failing to report on the climate emergency and that's the latest b.b.c. Knees. Souring this is I think one of the most prominent flavor profiles in Filipino. Always add different things to balance whether it's something salty or something sweet or something back to me that's how to. Meet margarita for as found a successful chain of restaurants. She made. By creating. Strictly with Filipino ingredients name was named to many. Chefs whites. Are household name in the Philippines from sugar trading and real estate and how mom was something. My mom always. Told lifestyle so she said as long as you can wake up and go to school the next day . With me. Being thrown into a prominent family. Life was easy for. The dictatorships family and forced to flee the country. Twenty's Margarita developed an eating disorder learning to cook how to overcome it . I was always wanting to seek approval from my family my mother and maybe that's probably why all sold I tried so hard to really find my own passion and as a way of expressing my. On the food chain 'd. We winning. About. Jackson. He was born in the late 1950 s. In the bustling Bayside metropolis of Manila in the Philippines that was a distinguished. It was a party and considered something of a style icon for the country was. Originally from Spain via Mexico his maternal side of the family had been in the sugar business since the 1930 s. My my grandma and my grandpa were sugar planters and traders and at that time that he started in the fifty's was like one of the biggest products from the Philippines and he ended up buying 3 big ships to be able to export the sugar abroad. And to America and it was wonderful because we would actually be able to go on those ships when they were docked at the port where the sugar was being loaded so it was actually a wonderful time for my siblings and my 1st. We were only 8 and we loved going on those ships and seeing the sugar being loaded and because of the sweetness is very symbolic for Margarita So it may be no surprise to you that the 1st day she wants to tell us about is the sugary one it's a type of wafer base gets rolled up to resemble a single. It's shaped like a cigar it's a little bit like. And they roll the beautiful flower and sugar mixture with a little bit of egg and it's big. So that it becomes crunchy it has a lot of layers and it's usually eaten as well with ice cream growing up my father always loved sweepings but he also liked to mix sweet things with salty things and my mother would always want to have a treat for him and she would have some beautiful Garvey are in the house and my dad would do the Archelaus with a little bit of the art so it was always of the salt of the sweet. But these sweet summers on the plantation went to last forever. Barely. We met. In 1972 then President Ferdinand Marcos imposed martial law opposition politicians were jailed and according to subsequent Filipino governments thousands were killed or tortured soul during that time my grandfather and my grandmother were just traveling actually by accident and when President Marcos declared martial law so they decided to just stay in America why couldn't if your family stayed in Manila Well I think that politically they were putting people in jail especially the people who are against the administration at that time so the rest of the family were very afraid and my grandfather I'm sure was afraid and most especially because he was such a stalwart of the sugar industry Marcos clamp down on anybody trade being sugary directly and what he did was he sacked up a kind of like a clearing house where the government was the only one allowed to trade sugar and to export sugar and the Gardners of what the world market price was at that time the government would only give the planters and the traders a certain price and it's really broke my grandfather's heart and it also endangered the rest of the families since we were so identified politically with the opposition. My mother just told me she told me on. Monday she goes You guys are flying out on Wednesday so it was quite traumatic for me to be pulled away from my friends and moved to New York but how he was with and that they could pick some home comforts like cynic and seek with. My grandmother he was quite restorers full as he would go and visit the neighborhood fishmonger and at that time of course in the seventy's I mean in America people never really ate like the whole fish everybody's always used to just having feeling. In the Philippines to be all grew up eating fish nose to tail is something that's quite common here in the Philippines because we're currently and we never want to throw anything away so it was wonderful that my grandmother saw that the fish monger was like throwing away the Solomon heads so she asked him if he could just give them to her so that we could have the Filipinos ours seem ignorant soup but the beautiful Zalman heads so this is something that was such a treat for us and I know that this is famous for being quite sour to say where you are was your grandmother able to find the ingredients that she needed to make the salmon. So my grandmother would sour her. Really nice start American lemons sour and this is I think one of the most prominent flavor profiles in Filipino cuisine but what's wonderful and unique about it is that we always add different things to balance the sour ness where there is something salty or something sweet or something back to mommy that's how. I mean. The did the majority of the cooking in your house not your mother oh my my mother was a unique person she was more of like a son I think it was more everyone congregating in my grandmother's house to have like. My mom there was one of the people that enjoyed the whole Studio 54. And we were very young my sister my brother and I the 3 older siblings we were in high school but my mom kind of like always. In her whole life styles so we would actually argue with her at night but she said as long as you can wake up and go to school the next day. With me although my mother didn't cool she had a wonderful cook in the house whose name was. And she and I actually cook together a lot and I think that was a time that actually this whole passion of mine actually started. Despite falling in love with cooking Margarita decided to study accountancy want she finished high school following a boyfriend back to the Philippines halfway through her course by the time she graduated the relationship had run its course and she moved to Hong Kong for a couple of years working in accounting eventually she went back to New York where she worked for the Italian fashion designer Valentino I think that working in fashion and it made me fall in love with everything it but even the things I mean I would go past that and I think that that's what got me more in the Guard and what made me more. Than just fashion. This is serious about this. Protocol it's. Actually it's very strange because I always say to myself I must have been evaluating in my past life because I don't know what they liked to eat I don't for new ways of Italian restaurants was appearing in New York City they banished the classic candlelit red check table called with spaghetti swimming and tomato sauce and replace them with a light modern feel she began to cook more and more throwing Lothar she would ask dinner parties so you can consume more than Sasha and have a date. That Marguerite his time in New York was drawing to a close eye grandfather died in 1905 and the family went back to the Philippines to bury him within a few months President Marcos' dictatorship had ended and the family decided to stay for good. And then one day Margarita had an aha moment to show to Bush she wanted to do with her life. I remember there was one teeny show lifestyles of the rich and famous and there was an episode. Showing this. From her villa in Tuscany and I really got I want to go there or do something like that so I asked my mom permission and she goes Ok if that's what you want to do so in September of 1986 I decided to go and find a cooking school and I was very lucky that a friend of mine found a wonderful lady who was teaching her house in Florence and so that's where I ended up going learning every morning cooking classes in the morning and then we would do trips to the market or to do classic Florentine restaurants you know it's time you need to me I wonder how that changed your relationship with . Well it was a time in my life and I was actually going through quite a bit of a personal transformation time I had. An. Eating Disorder. Maybe it was God's way of helping me get through the challenge because then this self discovery and wanting to be a nurture and be a feeder and wanting to work with food allowed me to actually overcome that big challenge in my life. I've read a lot of course unbelievably r. And is truly a self image issue and I'm a 2nd child and I know the 2nd child syndrome is something that I can relate to I was always. Wanting to seek approval from my family my mother and maybe that's probably why all saw and tried so hard to. Really find my own passion as a way of expressing my talent and what I wanted to be. I guess what my calling in life was to cause help you carve out an identity for yourself to stay Yeah. Exactly you took the words out of my mouth. This is the sea change for the b.b.c. World Service Jackson and this week we're speaking to award winning Filipino Shasta Margarita Florrie's about her life in 5 Tish's. Learning to kinetically was the pinnacle point in not just assigning Margarita's personal identity but also how professional life whilst eating a palm with rule mushrooms slippers of Parmesan and fruity on the boil she had a revelation actually this dish for me was there a real kind of like mind blowing experience when I tried 1st because I tried it and . This is a really kind of whimsical restaurant in Florence it was called. This restaurant had beautiful like murals on the wall anything had the most engaging I mean colorful person out of view on the restaurant and he would sing while he would cook and then he brought out this beautiful salad which was just roll all really mushrooms that were in season at that time. Flavored by me Johnno and then palm hearts and then he tossed it in the most beautiful fruity going all of oil seasoned it with the sea salt and I said this probably is the best representation of what Italian cooking is all about it's all about the ingredients they stand for themselves and all it needs is just very very short and very light preparation and what actually made it something that I wanted to share with your listeners today is because bombards are one of the most beautiful ingredients that we get in the Philippines we can actually chop it off the palm tree and serve it to you within minutes so that's what I actually. Turned on my curiosity coming home to the Philippines and. Looking into what we grow here. And seeing what is actually you need and beautiful in the Philippines and tried to integrate that in my work. Back to the Philippines sting with ideas and set up a catering company which makes classic Italian dishes but with Filipino ingredients one of her proudest inventions was crab. The full stay she wants to share with us this week one of my most favorite Filipino Nvidia's is this beautiful baby crab based which is called. And it comes from small baby crabs they are not even 2 inches in diameter they're really tiny soul just imagine. The makers of this beast Husing their fingers extracting the little bits of crown broke from the center of the crab collecting all of that I'll tell you a 15 sack of those baby crabs will probably make you 6 jars of this beautiful fat bass so I may derive you already using not spinach but Filipino or water spinach to make the boss to green and to add a little bit of depth of favored to the prostate so I started with beautiful blue crab Filipino crabs are really sweet and then I made a beautiful citrus cream sauce and then drizzle that beautiful. And. I think that it's still the most important vision I've ever had I think it best represents how I merged. But despite loving the coaching side of things she tells me she didn't take the catering aspect seriously she was partying hard often coming to work and making mistakes mistakes like not arriving in time to do set up before the guests arrived so I had to pull back maybe for a couple years to get my act together because I said to myself this is just so Harvey this thing or do I really want to make a business out of it is so in 1009 it was when I had my son actually that I kind of like finally got my act together and said Ok this is going to be your business so to me 7 years and then I opened a restaurant and I guess the rest is history. Today Margarita has 18 restaurants in the Philippines but the 1st was cheap meaning food in Italian she wanted it to be in a shopping mall good value for money all scientific and. Created by a Filipino back in the late ninety's foreign franchises like t.d.i. Friday and the Hard Rock Cafe were making big money margarita that wanted to change that and it was a success expanded into a chain of 16 eateries and then into another the upmarket champagne sat on. That was all on top of a catering business which was serving the likes of President Obama and Prince Albert of Monaco during their visits to the country. Things were looking good for Margarita until she got cancer not once but twice. Once in the thyroid and then several years later in the past. Cancer changed the business outlook she wanted to champion healthy to table organic food which had to set up another restaurant Grace Park where she said safer it childhood dishes. It was promoting sustainable food and farming that meant mockeries it would later be recognized by the u.n. Well Trade Organization and made an ambassador for gastronomy tourism that was a time when shafts were quite distant from the source of their ingredients but it's wonderful that we were able to actually work closely with government. Department of Agriculture and really bring the restaurant chefs closer to the farmers so that we could actually knoll where our greens come from and at the same time also help the farmers know what they should grow so it's really knowing about the provenance of your ingredients how it came to so tell me about you'll find out there it's a Filipino a push up. Yeah this is our affiliate Shaun which is actually a part of air reseller at me in the Philippines so it's a slow roasted pig that depending on where you are in the Philippines ingredients that they put in the belly are different but the most classic one would be lemon grass and garlic and just salt and pepper to season the pig it's something very close to my heart I'm a pig I was born in 90 visiting there and so I'm born in the year of the pig and I feel that I have such an affinity to the animal because the people born in the year of the big were like nurturers feeders people like. Take advantage of our kindness but I love that I mean that's that's I think what. You were hugely successful chef. I think that was in 2006 the. Numerous restaurants around the Philippines I was actually given everything you said about being the 2nd child and using food as a way to. Say I wonder looking back whether you feel. I'm not Chile what your family think of what you've done. It's been kind of like. You know when I got my award in. 16 I had my mother there and my son there and of course you know my mother and I have had this relationship you know all these years and just seeing her in the audience and her being there when I you know was given my award on stage I think that she carried. My family as well and it just kind of. You know what ever. Ever all of those feelings. That all. My relationship with my mother. And. The. Today Margarita has set his sights on pushing to see the penis food to be internationally recognized in the same way that Thai see it is but. It is a struggle partly because there is so much regional variation and dishes but also because they've been so many cultural influences throughout the centuries it makes Filipino food wanted to sign you know there's the Mali that was there before the Chinese came to train with us and then the Spanish conquered hours for 333 years that's what makes us unique the Filipino Asian and then you have 45 years of Coca-Cola burger and spaghetti with the hot dogs from the Americans and I think that that's what makes Filipino culture and queasiness so much more unique to given how much of a spokes person you Office Filipino food does that mean you might be opening a purely Filipino food restaurant rather than miss a tally and taken from the plane a food yes of course I am so damn good and I'm so tempted to do with somewhere inside of it's although Grace Park does some of the classic Filipino dish Yes but I think that you're right I think that. Maybe in the near future I would love to do something more classic and traditional Filipino. Mockeries of Torres inspired to choose. For me and the rest with. Simon she thanks for listening to join us again next week goodbye. Catching up with your loved ones while you're stuck at home can be a lot you have to agree on a crime. And what was that your uncle just said you missed it because his microphone was muted catching up with the news and information you need well that is easy just listen every weekday on this station to Morning Edition from n.p.r. News and stay connected. With. Mornings from 5 to 9. This is Connecticut Public Media n.p.r. And. Married at 90.5 p. And p. K. T. H. D. One at 89 point one. At Stanford at 88.5. 91.3. 3 are or. I'm close bringing in B.B.C.'s conversations about coronavirus on the b.b.c. World Service this time we have from doctors in Italy and France who after experiencing the frontline of the pandemic in Europe and now concerned about a possible 2nd wave plus we share conversations between people from 3 Pacific Island nations that a cave is free yet despite this enviable status the pandemic is introducing all the problems we have $106.00 languages across 6 islands and there is no word in any of those 106 languages for depression or anxiety we'll say hey from 2 couples in the United States who discovered an unexpected benefits of the pandemic by discovering love cheering lockdown so join me. On B.B.C.'s conversations about coronavirus all of the latest b.b.c. News. Hello I'm Debbie rests with the b.b.c. News President Trump has declined to condemn Russia over the poisoning of the opposition leader Valmy who's in a coma in a hospital in Germany experts there say they have evidence based in a valley was attacked with the Soviet era never agent from Washington his. Alexina of only supports his claim he was poisoned on the Kremlin's orders which Russia denies Germany says an o.b. Chalk agent was used similar to the one that almost killed a former Russian spy and his daughter in Seoul's Brita 2 and a half years ago that assessment received support from some trump administration officials including the head of the White House National Security Council President Trump who had been criticized for not speaking about the case earlier said that he would study the evidence he stopped short of criticizing President Vladimir Putin which has been a constant passons throughout Mr Trump's president say Mr Trump is facing growing anger over accusations that he disparaged fall an American soldiers asked loses his rival in November's election Joe Biden described the reported remarks as disgusting and called on Mr Trump to apologize to the families of service personnel who were killed some veterans and relatives have also condemned the president who has vehemently denied making the comments so there is nobody that feels more strongly about ourselves as well rounded warriors our soldiers that died in war than I do it's a hoax just like the fake shit was a hoax just like the Russia Russia Russia was a hoax it was a total hoax no collusion the allegations were 1st published in The Atlantic magazine. The number of confirmed cases of covert 19 in India has passed 4000000 the rise in infections in India is outpacing that of every other country in the world as the virus spreads beyond major cities don't assume it Ray told the b.b.c. He was worried that his hospital in Delhi could be overwhelmed by the influx obviously a 2nd so it Richard and I are just in Delhi we are seeing surges in smaller dark and we are seeing more patients coming to our hospital in Delhi from the small amount of them appear to be do not have the find opportunities that he had been receiving and that's a big but so the Indian authorities are testing more than a 1000000 samples a day to b.b.c. Correspondent in Delhi says even at that rate only a small fraction of the population has been screened the World Bank has cancelled a loan for a controversial dam in Lebanon which is long been opposed by environmentalists in a statement the World Bank said it was withdrawing its commitments to provide $244000000.00 in loans for the business 3 dam due to the failure of the authorities to meet all requirements to continue with the project you're listening to the latest world news from the b.b.c. China has demanded that India immediately withdraw its troops from what it claims is its territory along the border in the Himalayan region the Chinese defense minister away from her told his Indian counterpart Raj not saying that Delhi was entirely responsible for the current border tensions Japan's Coast Guard says it has been forced to stop a search for the crew of a cargo ship that capsized 2 days ago because of an incoming typhoon more than 40 people were working on board the ship which was transporting 6000 live cattle from New Zealand to Japan when it was overturned in an earlier storm. And museum dedicated to one of Britain's most famous writing families the 19th century Bronte's has been saved from closure by an equally celebrated poet he stated ts Eliot the night of cats has donated over 25000 dollars the home of the Bronte sisters was struggling because of a drop in visitors due to the current virus can McKenzie reports more than $70000.00 people annually usually visit the home of the authors Charlotte Amalie Brown say in how a thin West Yorkshire but since it reopened after the coronavirus lockdown the attraction has only been able to welcome limited numbers due to the social distancing guidelines as possible appeal to keep the museum open funding has come from the State of the poet to ts Eliot it said it could afford to help because of the success of caps the musical which has been seen by more than 73000000 people worldwide was well into a film last year strong James Corden Judi Dench and Taylor Swift Callum McKenzie environmental protest is in Britain have blockaded printing presses in an attempt to prevent several major newspapers reaching new stands they accuse the news papers which include the sun Financial Times and Daily Mail of failing to report on the climate imagine See that's the latest b.b.c. News. Hello I'm Chloe Tilly and we're bringing you the B.B.C.'s conversations about coronavirus on the b.b.c. World Service. We speak to dogs as it basically and from concerned about the recent rise in Corona virus cases but for 2 couples in the United States the pandemic provided emotional space for an unexpected right mounts imagine to people who are normally like nonstop go go go and there's nothing interrupt you and so you're able to kind of take the time and actually be present and we don't often get to do that you know when our world is is moving so fast. Almost every country in the Wells has had some sort of Corona virus outbreak but there's still a handful the to free of the disease including 3 Pacific Island nations located in the southern hemisphere now Australia and Papua New Guinea these islands are still feeling the economic effects of the pandemic so we brought together 3 people from the region to share their experiences with my colleague new McGuffin they all Bill who owns a scuba diving resort in Micronesia and he's got a small family business in the Solomon Islands but the 1st voice that you'll hear is Liz She runs a bt resort in Vanuatu Thanks to our government with quick closure forwarders we've managed to keep code out so we've got a lot of freight or we don't have code so we can move around freely Unfortunately though we've had other disasters like select client and also an economic one so though we don't have car food we have an economic crisis and we've just started. Without So I cleared that we heard back manner but we live in a really beautiful idyllic Pacific island so are we a so lucky we can still be with our community and our friends so that we're very grey. Let me turn to you Bill describe where you are for of our government shutdown flights the 1st of February so we are completely Kovac free and we're able to move around freely with on the island but it's come at a very high price economically and in my case there's 85 employees that are laid off we've been closed since mid February the big problem for us really is uncertainty when is this going to and when will we might offer flights again and it's going to take a long time to get the tourism industry back that's for sure yes what is Micronesia like well it's very tropical it's beautiful it's the palm trees the turquoise lagoon the blue Pacific Ocean just outside the reef There's a wonderful culture here they still use stone money we have stone paths the local dancing is very colorful and it's a very idyllic place but it's very very small words 39 square miles total and are being for you and now Vanuatu we closed the border is around match we had to lock downs just to have 2 people to you know have the feel of what it's going to be like and for how long was that So the 1st one was actually trying to crowd was and the 2nd one to imagine in 2 days we had called the Sri now but all in maybe op a New Guinea they have called it in their lives one confirmed case from will get a meal Well that is just 15 minutes away from our furthest Alan and the case is a coming closer in we still do not have or we didn't economic crisis now it's a use as a huge impact on an ass and tell me about the impact on you and your business we have 4 Alas it just more than a business it's days I'll be ill is it since the kids to school is I have 2 daughters present in my high school so almost 3 mt. They've been staying back at home they don't go to school because we don't have a single pay here you weren't able to send your kids to school because of a lack of money exactly that's tough it's a very is it the case that they will not be able to go back until you begin earning money again but is correct we are lucky because Micronesia is affiliated with the United States and so there is some money that is coming in from the United States and our employees are eligible to get a weekly stipend this is just happened they went from mid February until about mid July with no money at all but luckily yeah there's still fishing and farming so no one is really in dire straits but the school situation here it's not for lack of money but several of the schools are closed this year because teachers cannot come in teachers that $1.00 homeowner vacation the teachers that went to visit relatives and have gotten stranded outside thought I hear you Bill that unclear where we're facing similar issues out government Leslie has provided some policy stimulus to employment stabilization but that has now see what we are facing the exact same issues as end up people finding it hard with left money or reduced hours of employment to be able to get transport to go to school to be able to pay fees i government has provided you know an amount per child for the year but it doesn't cover or feels so we're facing economic hardship in so many areas but we're not facing food shortage we've got food rushing in our markets because this excess food and we don't have the tourists or the hotels 5 different issues here we can't get our medical corridors we can't get out educational and professional people in and out of the country and for me a solution for every sector every. Economic sector would be to have a safe sort of corridor with essential air services this is seasonal work a program that's being piloted I don't know if and if you have that in Solomon Islands but that's a trade we would Dame essential because that remits money back and helps us what health care do you have at the moment why would you need a medical corridor where in the process of moving from a they still think country to a developing country which I believe is happening country way is still not as developed with our health services so they are very basic for example if we have to have some blood tests will need to be flown out of the country to be tested nearby Noumea New Caledonia or stroke and so some of these services are no longer available we can't do any complicated surgery recurrent or open heart so if somebody has got a pacemaker that needs a new battery they need to be able to get to a stray or a New Zealander to be able to have that changed our borders both land and sea a closed for anyone coming in but they're not closed for going out Ha So if you leave too for the pacemaker whatever it might be you probably won't get home the correct path and that's a that's a really big issue I can imagine Andor what about you when you hear lives and Bill talk about the hardships that people are going through something a big deal from believes is the government's or in college taken weeks diminish a cage or as they've gave the coal in June for tourism operators to apply so that it then was June 6th and now today will we still wait for governments or how do you manage day to day a trend in Australia she has a project in the Solomons as she couldn't come back so I'm supporting her underground sea help me out with some ash so that we survive so it's really relying on your community it sounds like Bill is some of the case where you are 200 percent it's. All family driven and community driven in the those that have more or sharing with people than money there's there's not much of a money economy but there is food we're coping and your time at which you open up the borders that mean it's as a tourism operator one and you kind of say you know yeah please let's do something but in our case Guam is are in Guam as coded quite a bit and it's just gone into lockdown so we have really no no options for a travel bubble Our hospital is very rudimentary and blood work has to be sent away luckily we have one flight a week for mail in cargo so it's not a disaster it's not great but if you did go off if you have something and you really have to go somewhere to get treated you're not coming on live let me change you I mean how is it affecting people psychologically it's really testing it something near that I want to we have 106 languages across 86 islands and there is no word in any of these 106 languages or depression or anxiety with the war Ari And on Thursday you're already very resilient people are starting to think no one's dying is good enough food and I was sort of very happy if you're in the village but you still need to pay for education although we live in other majority of our population it's just subsistence why we still need money incident what's creeping into to the thought process now is over thinking and worry and also as a Melanesian society river very closely connected with immediate family extended family if we don't take use of that community we're saying start into. Wondering you know I've lost my job or not to fix paper holes around crime naturally and all of these precious has come to the surface now that out hospital has got a mom. And Care Clinic and what our population is thought has never really sort of been an illness or something that we've never had to deal with those things and there's a lot of fear because we don't see it firsthand we hear it on the who's not many people have digital smartphones or electricity home so it's not the say we're not sitting in a house watching t.v. For the majority and then watch it but we're hearing about the deaths in Italy us all around us and it's frightening so we had their families in van a washy bill is in Micronesia and also and joined us from the Solomon Islands that's 3 nations that despite being caveat free are still affected by the pandemic . But while some countries are cave it free others are becoming increasingly worried about the possibility of a 2nd wave since cases are on the increase across most of Europe need to speak to Dr Eric review he is the head of the emergency department at Larry Bossier hospital in Paris in France she also spoke to Dr Francesca Tomba reli from the Cremona hospital which is in northern Italy I can't believe right now that we lived in that moment here a need only because now it seems like good now there existed even if the number of key there is rising again I'm also a bit worried that that situation my have been again and what about you Dr Eric. We had a lot lot of Haitian superior condition call me the birds the department and then it's care units and that's what was chosen I actually have now. Quite free we expect to have more cases but those city cases actually and most of the population have to be carried out to where the hospital are ready to face maybe a 2nd wave. We should work now to to prevent that it sounds to me that you are not as concerned as perhaps you were the last time that's true for all time in March and April will try to educate a population to say you care for we don't have intensive care unit it's really talk and now we try to expand to get it to the young patients to respect the look down because most of the young opulent they do well to wear masks though so it could be very dangerous because we don't have to have a 2nd wave that's way of thinking right now majority of cases are among the young people. Because where the main locations where a spread recently as we know call it is not so dangerous among young people as it is among the there is a reason probably why we don't have so many people right now but. The rise there has been very sharp in the last week so I am a little bit worried as well yes because I would imagine you correct me if I'm wrong that yes it's young people yes the hospital beds are empty Yes they're not suffering as much as an elderly person would but surely they can pass it to older people so in a few weeks time you could be coming back to a similar situation that you were in previously of course that's also true even if I think we are a little bit more cautious right now people are used in masks even if not always not everywhere but it's still better than the beginning off markets where no one knew about Carlie and no one took any precautions I hope it's not going to be the thing our agree the main reason we. Want to have another wave. Yes for economic reasons because it was not so simple in March but actually the thing is the young people when you try to educate them they say we want to be free we know we are not sick we know we are not dangerous we try to explain it with the media to say that it is very dangerous that is so the situation is more prevention it should be dangerous maybe in September maybe October November so it's quite disturbing we are quite upset when we see young people respect that so we are really concerned about that to say listen you're not alone you have to work not for yourself but for those you've gone through something so how exhausting so traumatic already do you feel ready to go to the front line to fight again I've spent some time relaxing I don't think I could manage to go back to the house. If we have to go I hope I don't have to do the framing again because right now I'm living with men and I mean again and it's my 9th actually you know I think the family concerned was really one of the main problems or medical. Doctors because we were really exhausted April in a day or the team are really tired now they need to rest but really we don't want to have that again he had there from Dr Everett review in France and also Dr Francesco temporarily in Italy well as you've heard they continue to be multiple reasons why the world must continue to fear and of course attempts to control this virus but as with many negative events in life they're often accompanied by unexpected opportunities and in this case as you're about to hear the pandemic caused 2 couples in the United States to find love. Of cheering look down I've been speaking to Jordan and Brittany in Michigan they know that marriage Jaring the pandemic but 1st you get to hit from Colton and Alex in New York who are engaged they 2 started dating journey lockdown off the court and mentioned he was recovering from cave at 19 on social media so there I was I reach out I said Gordon gosh you know I'm so glad that you're doing well you know how are you doing now and so we ended up carrying on a conversation on Instagram messages for a couple of hours actually And now we were last seen we heard you just popped off I mean he were just it was so great as mazing and so then I woke up the next morning and I'm like wow that was an unbelievable conversation and so I just text her the next morning and just said you know be great to do it and call it double the next 2 nights she said let me check my. Total. Like you know when I'm not going to do. Those like let me check my schedule Ok yes you know that's a night so we had a date scheduled for that evening the next night at 7 o'clock Yeah happy hours my 1st actually my 1st class or and it was you know 3 months after being sick and at this point I still had lingering symptoms because I was bedridden really bad for 6 days the I couldn't move out of my bed I thought it was I was definitely they had to be honest yeah I would just like going on and on but it was not fluff I mean it was it was all serious. Meaningful conversation and then I felt my body getting kind of tired I was like What time is that and so we looked at the time and I mean you couldn't tell me it was 10 o'clock at night because it didn't feel like it was 7 hours how did you join the lockdown then there was that initial attraction but as he said you're in complete lockdown so how do you. Date time the good thing and that bad thing obviously a bad thing going through sickness but the good thing was that I know that I at the end of eyes and I was negative and I was safe so I felt pretty confident and meeting we discussed that there weren't any confirmed cases of anybody getting it again and that sort of thing so we have central park like the best social distance possible and then eventually you know our Gates took place really in his apartment because you know my apartment is super tiny I mean it's like a little shoe box and he just had more space and there's no restaurants no bars nothing open I mean you're not going anywhere aside from wherever it is you're going to go and you know talk the most amazing part about all this was that it wasn't like oh you know I'll see you tonight or let's maybe grab dinner it was wake up me have breakfast walk to the park spend 14 hours straight with each other 16 hours straight and really get to know each other every single day because you know of us working as we got to know each other more waiting for that rug to be pulled but it just got better and better which was amazing as we really got to know each other and like very deep level imagine to people who are normally like nonstop go go go and it's just there's nothing interrupting and so you're able to kind of take the time and actually really focus and just like actually be present and we don't often get to do that you know when our world is moving so fast and that's one thing that lockdown did to give all of us whether we want to we call that time and I want to bring Jordan and Brittany in because I want to know your story of how you met how you got together and indeed got married during the pandemic I never wanted to do on line dating I never thought it was for me I was very active and I had a whole summer plans all these activities and then cope it happened and so my plans went out the window and I thought Here I am quarantined I thought I'm going to be single forever. And then I was watching Hulu and I match that advertisement and I thought of the fine from God So I got on that night and Ethernet joining me out to me I just joined us you joined and by this time a full blown call and you know it happens and so we had to have met just after the fact I was already working from home at that point because our offices in Suffolk shut down and it was the same for her so we started just talking you know through the the match out and kind of getting to know each other have turned into text messages and phone calls and then maybe a week perhaps later it was one of those decisions that we can have to make as well you know somewhere to go in talking how nothing was open we had nothing obviously open around here either no restaurants bars etc and so we had our 1st day my house and I cooked dinner and I had to lure her and promised her I'd give her a roll toilet paper if she was willing to come oh great well that's what everyone needed but. I don't know I figured that was kind of a grand gesture so if she decided to come over I didn't give us all a paper Don't worry. But you know we end up having a wonderful dinner and conversation and that this quickly escalated into a much deeper conversation again a lot of fluff that you know was being described earlier in the phone call as it is imported You know most dates I think when you start dating it takes you know maybe 3 or 4 days before you actually go to the other individual house and we skipped all that because we were kind of forced to but inevitably led to a lot of self disclosure a lot of you know our wants needs desires and things like that obviously one of the states in our lives are a big part of that but Cova definitely sped things up significantly and so you will may think we want to get married steering a pandemic because some people would say the nice thing I want to do is get married I want to wait to have a big ceremony and everything what made you say actually no we want to do it now we both got married fairly young. And. So we are groups of course and so we've kind of been through made mistakes and been we both work from home you know we found ourselves or side by side in our laptops so we were literally together you know kind of 247 at that point we knew that this was not. Both within our personalities to continue that adventure so we want to do something special for both of us and so we decided to go it was perfect the wedding was very nice but the nice ceremony will just married and we got married in New Orleans at the park there I wouldn't change anything Alex and Gordon in New York that I will say we had from Jordan and Brittany in Michigan Q couples he found love cheering. Of course especially to welcome reminder isn't it there will always be a shot of light amongst the darkness I'm playing and you've been listening to B.B.C.'s conversations about coronaviruses. Of the b.b.c. World Service in the us was made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media which support from Raymond James tailored wealth management banking and capital market solutions for clients unique needs learn more at Raymond James. While imprisoned under Pinochet's brutal dictatorship in Chile in the 1970 s. Christina Zamora would find creative ways to resist we. Need. They became invested in seeing the really good he wanted us to be our Hopi. But we were ourselves almost 50 years later an exhibition of these crafts would lead her curious daughter to finally seek the arts as she'd always been too afraid to know b.b.c. News was Debbie Ross President Trump has declined to condemn Russia over the poisoning of the opposition leader Alexei in a valley who's in a coma and hospital in Germany experts there say they have evidence mist in the valley was attacked with a nerve agent developed by Soviet Russia Mr Trump said he'd seen no proof that mist in a valley had been poisoned the World Bank has cancelled a loan for a controversial dam in Lebanon which has long been opposed by environmentalists in a statement the World Bank said it was withdrawing its commitments to provide $244000000.00 in loans for the base 3 down due to the failure of the authorities to meet all requirements to continue with the project the number of confirmed cases of covert 19 in India has passed 4000000 Indian Health officials are struggling to stem the surge in the virus as it spreads beyond major cities over 84000 new cases were recorded in the past 24 hours China has demanded that India immediately withdraw its troops from what it claims is its territory along the border in the Himalayan region the Chinese defense minister way from her told his Indian counterpart that Delhi was entirely responsible for the current would attentions both sides have deployed thousands of troops in the dark region after Attash in June. Sudan has declared a national state of emergency for 3 months following devastating floods that have killed almost 100 people Sudan's Security and Defense Council designated the country a natural disaster zone and set up a body to coordinate the relief efforts the authorities in Bangladesh say the number of people killed in a suspected gas explosion at a mosque has risen to 12 the blasts took place when dozens of worshippers were performing Friday prayers at the mosque near the capital Dhaka more than 40 people have been injured some of them seriously b.b.c. News. Welcome to Outlook weekend on the b.b.c. World Service the home of extraordinary stories from around the globe I. Am Today we're in embroideries workshop in central London. Most people here exiles from Chile they were forced to leave in the 1970 s. When the country was ruled by the dictator General Pinochet under his military regime tens of thousands of people were tortured more than 3000 people were killed or kidnapped by the security forces and were never seen again they became known as the disappeared the. Women and men around me painstakingly stitching brightly colored thread on to squares of cotton and. After a little while their work starts to reveal employed pictures known in Chile as upbeat yet as. They're making to remember the people who died during Pinochet's dictatorship. There's about 15 people sitting at tables they've got needles and thread in their hands but there's scissors on the table bags of different colors red red yellow green green all those little world. I'm going to wave and and these seas they're from the sounds of seeing all these people always a good time to lay down this table which is you know my beautiful white pieces of material with cross stitch and void and the edge and each one has there been a actually employed to do all of that really will see the oil of the land there are a lot of the land that for now was the 3 best this is it is there is the river. And that's an embroidered is really really that's the cotton and green material and then you just create sounds and this is. The old way. It went to the meanest. Executed on the 4th of October 96 received and boy did that in a way as you read anything that yeah I need to. Hear what some from teacher called him. Is this see him yet. And we call it this. I think additionally the materials that we used in that. Very humble materials like coffee sacks of flour sacks recycled fabrics and men a set of these workshops after seeing an exhibition showing similar crafts made by political prisoners during their incarceration under Pinochet's military regime. But there was a deeply personal reason why him and it was by the art on display. Own mother's work was part of that. As a medical student and young activist her mother Christina had been snatched from a teaching hospital by the secret police just 2 months after baby Jimin it was born . She suffered interrogation in one of Pinochet's notorious torture centers and spent years in a prison camp enjoying the heartache of being separated from her new baby to. The growing up a man I had never known just more motherhood and. It wasn't something they discussed I think when I was younger I knew that I had been a coup I knew that my parents had been detained and that we had been exiled I had an idea of the general politics but I think I was nervous to maybe ask about my parents' actual experience so I think maybe scared even to know details but seeing how mothers craftwork proudly on display gave him in at the courage to find out the missing parts of her story I could ask about a piece of text so that she made a lot of it for me has been like a puzzle where I get little bits of information and I piece them together. Stitch by stitch in men or. Tapestry of her mother's life one of secrets imprisonment resistance and creativity. In this episode you'll hear through the women in one family the story of how needle and thread. Of resistance in Pinochet's prison. It has more to do this again I'm with a kid. When I dialed up Jiminez mother tastiness a mortar She began by talking about her mother who'd given birth to her in Santiago in 1950. The family we used to spend you know who did it particularly to me he said to me yes it sounds. Good. This is. Gold. Did you know the world. Thank you didn't discuss the child who was hit by tragedy when she was just 8 years old a mother might have cancer. What kind of relationship did you have with your mother before she died when I left and a lot then with the birth I was the youngest one and all the older ones were doing their own thing my mom was just makers she would make all my I dressed when I was little a thing that was and or guns. It just seemed that for me. You know they're used to love While I always have always enjoy make interesting Christine or inherited a lover sewing from her mother but her early death affected Christina in another way she began to dream of becoming a doctor even a meeting a would like to be Nick Urrea that had to do with health and looking after people early on Christina realised there was not so easy for women to have a career but as your learn Christina can only be described as determined and to nation I think a younger age race 30 thinking that women are not confronted inequality and I think that was also another wrists and the need to do isto the university because my aim was to be a national independent and I saw that and I would not marry so I suppose one could say that I was becoming a feminist I think it was you know what Shimon mother my sister my sister were fairly clear there they had study the whole primary and secondary school it was not to go to the university but they yes Maria so young so you were determined to go to university and have a career. Kristina worked hard at school with just the occasional break to listen to rock n roll. A. Good 9069 she won a place to. Body Medicine at the University Center. She threw herself into her studies attending lectures while also training on hospital wards it wasn't all work and no play oh now and again we were used to have a nice article. On . The other thing Christina and her friends made time for was politics as a medical student she'd help treat people in Santiago's poor shanty towns the extreme poverty she witnessed there convinced her that Chile needed to change and not thousands of other Chileans she took her hopes for a more equal society to the ballot box. Was. It was. In 1970 Salvador Allende the doctor was elected as Cheney's 1st ever socialist president actually. Very careful not to move the camera away until the city send you something I will see this and that they are limited which is the main avenue you know in there in this and there are some and I was you know according to our media median sedition celebrating it was quite an emotional experience to be there you know that the people of p.s. So happy everybody spoke of peace and people were granting him here still a cool. Kid Recap we are. Was Kristina began to get more involved in student politics attending meetings and peaceful rallies she joined a left wing student group that was independent from popular unity coalition but backed his government's program of literacy campaigns wage rises land for poor farmers. And something did to Christine as hot free health care for all. The service I. Was. Doing a crack political meetings and mind is firmly on politics but to her surprise romance crept in with a fellow medical student called Amanda I love the way he was very. Nice of you to all the people when she Yes Oh he was that he was. A seen 1st as a friend then we started in on going must trace She must have been there to place is still there and eventually we became like a pool hall. But those days full of hope was short lived because on September the 11th 1973 the head of the army general stop Pinochet overthrew the elected socialist government in a violent coup I. Sat morning Christina now Manda woke up to the sound of guns and we could hear the shots and I know he said like explosion and release into the radio and they were there was a military coup. The hopes of a fair country with free healthcare for all but dashed they were now living under a military regime the soldiers and cars on the streets. Christine are now Manda with his shots fired at night and bodies would appear in Santiago's more patrol river the next morning was the old. Curfew was imposed an old political act to. Banned. Tens of thousands of people were rounded up and taken to secret talk to centers some were never seen again they became known as the disappeared. Despite the horror of the coup Christina carried on study and her love for Amanda only. A few months later the students got married a mother world outside dark and there's became a little brighter in September 1984 when we demanded by her side Christina gave birth to a baby daughter she may now what's more humane it's after midnight and then the following morning a nurse ignores grain saying that she killed all the other babies the way that she had been the leader. And Ashley Nash said put her on my shift. I was so happy and how are you feeling about the future we are still a military regime but you had your new young family were you looking forward to the future Well there's. Always with the underlying fear there were still in martial law. Night you will hear all night there are going around and around. Christina's fears were well founded because when Jimin it was just 2 months old the regime reached their door. Christina was at the medical school when armed men arrived. And I was there looking at the baby that weighed on the word at the time and I call from the secretary their hospital they were playing agent of the secret the agent look at my identity card and she immediately looks sad you know was very strange feeling that she was being really sorry for me. The person he was looking for Christina. Busy studying and caring for her newborn baby but she was still in touch with students involved in underground resistance against the Pinochet regime think they were not and the meat to the back of a chair where the waiter the medical students already there at some point they took me to our family home to our mental home because they were looking for him and our man that wasn't there at the time that was that was my last opportunity to even the men. Christina was taken to a secret tortures enter in Santiago according to the Chilean national commission on Truth and Reconciliation an official report into human rights abuses under Pinochet . The place she'd been sent to was known as vendor sex because of the sexual abuse the prisoners were subjected to. While she was detained here nobody knew of Kristina's whereabouts. Many people here were tortured to death or killed without anyone ever knowing what happened to them Christina didn't know if she would become one of the disappeared I just got the feeling I remember the feeling and you know how my mind was working so fast then when I was in Benin federal gate and I was yes in around with there the cement piece and then I would be sad because I work in which the men are and they heard it lady she sick elderly man there because my breasts were so painful because of this so then stop in it in the day after she arrived the secret police pokus Tina's husband outmanned on to the same prison I was in a witness when she was being purchased there were. Pressure her into. Christina suffered 2 nightmarish weeks here before she you know Amanda were taken to another secret detention center court Quatro animals still nobody in the outside world knew where she was. It was here the secret police would decide her fate whether to transfer her to an official prison or make her disappear after another 2 weeks of terrifying uncertainty Christina was taken to Tres Alamos a prison camp and at last her family were allowed to know her whereabouts but Amanda was also moved to the same prison and housed in a separate men's compound. When you 1st arrived I felt to be in a fog because you were kind of trying to process everything and. You know. Just the change being a medical student we did small baby to be a political prisoner très Alamos was a different kind of place it was sparse bleak and overcrowded there were cold showers and very little food but it was more open and the women prisoners were able to see each other during the day Christina noticed the inmates have created their own support system. There were so much lead that it when you're right they need really cheat you so well I don't understand that the women prisoners helped each other out sharing food when they're brought by the river that if Westboro Dean let's say a mad. Boy lakes or whatever they are and then if you want us prepare the for that and then distribute it to everybody prison life was still hard the cells were so overcrowded the Christina often slept on the floor but the cells did open out onto a courtyard and in the daytime the women could meet there it was in this courtyard that they began to make crafts sewing knitting and embroidering we literally French and late there were we could all sit on a stool his you could choose to be quiet if you went and so was the time when you quit restraint and it used to make me shiver Koen and still allow me to think about my past and sink about the future whatever that might be. They used scraps of material brought in by relatives concentrating on painstaking need to work enable them for a few moments at least to take their minds of the ordeal they were going through making process or says a way of coping and then you know where they read d.c. Making 6000000 singles it was the way of coping you know what any improvement in the mental health of the priest and you know we the embryo that he blouses need. There as well as a form of therapy the workshops had a very practical side the women began to sell their crafts to raise money for those inmates who had children at home Christina even use her crafting skills to help the women prisoners. And secret messages I think they became invested in seeing if they wanted to send a message even for ceasing they sending a message to their in the midst priest and because they look at everything you you know if you sent a letter he had to be the police by the commandant in charge and all that but they wanted some privacy so they were kind to me and I go in for them that was. With and encourage them to read to a car and it had a little message sewn inside. Us To us you know the secret wrapper. Point that he tell you need right in. Think it was a former. Military wanted us to be unhappy and help them we were. At this prison Christina was allowed visits and she was finally able to see her baby him many a thing we joined this with her arm and the media and she yes it gets a more of that of that which was that you would you know whole have each other and just seeing their. How did you feel when you had to you had this moment playing with your baby daughter and then you had to say goodbye to her Oh really I was there years. After 2 years in the prison and Christina was released without charge she came to London with a minute in 1976 a few months later Amanda was freed and came to join them in Britain I still remember being in that place we are right near me and they could see the lights London my 1st impression of the weather there was rain rain rain Christina now Amanda was given a grant by the World University service and picks up their studies in Birmingham and how with those 1st years for you when you get studying medicine again and getting used to Britain. Well I think it was took a leg up maybe seen any her and then now what you need. Allow me time to be able to be more proficient in going on which by that time I saw patients book a quickie finds out surveys in the clever and you teach your ambition of having a career just what would you went through. Christina went on to become a doctor working for Britain's National Health Service for 40 years and just like Christina in men I grew up watching her mother and her father making things. That he said to her waving in the bedroom and he began to weave belts and bags and he would show me how to we my mom was making some dos and we'd also made like little leather purses and I'd sort of help with some of the stitching they still had brought a lot of the crusts that they had been making in detention. And then in 2018 a fellow former inmate asked Christine an almond if they'd like to display some of their crafts in an exhibition alongside the works of other political prisoners when she saw her own mother's work on display in Mina plucked up the courage to ask her mother about her life during the dictatorship so always been proud of my mom and love her very sort of deep respect for her convictions it has enabled me to ask a few more questions and find out a bit more of this puzzle for May and I think it's been a very intimate journey. It is emotional but I think I think it's important that she does share these stories with me with my brother with my sister with you know some point with her grandkids because it's not just a part of our own family history I think it's part of a collective experience. The whole. New. School. Spieth by the exhibition of prisoners crafts and determined that the horrors of the Pinochet regime should never be forgotten Jiminez set up embroidery work for. Many of those who come to embroider have also suffered imprisonment and exile in menaces making cross together can help people of all ages I can't say that it will heal everything thoroughly but I think just maybe getting together being with other people that have lived through the same things and making these things together and talking about them and passing that on to you know sharing that with a younger generation I think has does have some healing capacity and I don't know if it's going to if they are getting satisfied I think that in a way that God they're going to head back to the families of the disappeared in chief is still seeking answers more the 900 Pinochet's victims are still Mr Christina made cross to undo your imprisonment under the dictatorship today Amanda hopes her craft workshops will help the search for justice and that the beautiful painstakingly stitched embroideries will keep the memory of that disappeared a lie memory for me is one of the things that has a. Has been at play since the dictatorship there's a fear I think amongst people the survivors and their families that these stories will be covered well he said to her. You would think those who are for the. Lancaster. Just the fact that there hasn't been justice for many of these families and we still don't know where many of the disappeared so for people that have a relative or loved one that is disappeared. They are still living with this every day they feel this as if it happened yesterday and I think that's one of the reasons was still important for us to carry on with this project that. Was going to. Be a man apart though and Christine is there more. To see pictures of the Cross visit our Facebook page just search b.b.c. Outlook I'm Grace and this has been outlook weekend goodbye. Catching up with your loved ones while you're stuck at home can be a lot you have to agree on a time a platform to use and what was that your uncle just said you missed it because his microphone was muted but catching up with the news and information you need well that is easy just listen every weekday on this station to Morning Edition from n.p.r. News and stay connected. Weekday mornings from 5 to 9. This is Connecticut Public Radio n.p.r. And n.p.r. Age 51 married in at 90.5 w p k t w p k t h d one no h 89 point one. Spear 88.5 w. Our ally at Southampton at 91.3 and w n p. Org. World Service this is written with the real story one topic one hour every week and this week the theories extreme a global network of cannibal paedophiles led by billionaires celebrities and Democrats holds the leaders of power and Donald Trump is the man to dismantle it the conspiracy theories behind q. And on a winning followers what began on a website in America has gained popularity around the world from either angelical Christians to supporters of the far right in Germany what is the appeal of this evolving conspiracy theory and who's latching on to it decision media platform say they're cracking down but is it too late have its ideas taken root at times promoted by us President flattered to be depicted as the savior is this a short lived political curiosity or is it a danger to democracy and its institutions why has Cuban on gone global That's the real story from the b.b.c. Coming up after the knees. Hello I'm Dave u.s. With the b.b.c. Nice President Trump has declined to condemn Russia over the poisoning of the opposition leader and next in a volley this in a coma in a hospital in Germany experts there say they have evidence mist in the valley was attacked with the Soviet era nerve agent from Washington he's now Mia. Alexina of only supporters claim he was poisoned on the Kremlin's orders which Russia denies Germany says a Novi chalk agent was used that assessment received support from some trump administration officials including the head of the White House National Security Council President Trump who had been criticized for not speaking about the case earlier said that he would study the evidence he stopped short of criticizing President Vladimir Putin which has been a constant Patton's throughout Mr Trump's president say the World Bank has canceled a loan for a controversial dam in Lebanon which is long been opposed by environmentalists the bank said the authorities had failed to meet all the requirements Arab affairs editor Sebastian Asha reports activists in Lebanon have been celebrating the World Bank decision to stop funding a business as a rare moment of victory in a country still shattered by the explosion in Beirut have been protests at the site of a dam in one of Lebanon's most beautiful valleys for years it's become one of the rallying cries against the entire political system which Lebanese hold to blame for the country's economic collapse and the latest terrible calamity a month ago the government approved the project as what it saw as an essential means of providing drinking water and irrigation but environmentalists argued it would destroy a valley rich in biodiversity and potentially pose an earthquake risk China has demanded that India immediately withdraw its troops from what it claims is its territory and on the border in the Himalayan region the Chinese defense minister away from her told his Indian counterpart Rajnath Singh that Delhi was in time. Responsible for the current border tensions in Barcelona 2 Rajaram reports it was the highest level face to face contact between China and India since that then transplant along the disputed the dark region enjoin this year in a terse message China made it clear that it would not give up an inch off it started Lee the Indian minister said the actions by Chinese troops along the border right in violation off by little agreements both sides have deployed thousands of troops along the border after a clash in June that killed 20 Indian soldiers and hand to hand fighting and an unknown number of Chinese casualties the Indian Health Ministry has introduced on demand tests for the corona virus as the number of confirmed infections spiraled past 4000000 the ministry said people can get tested even without a prescription the authorities have been battling to contain new cases which reached a new global daily record of more than 84000 well news from the b.b.c. The authorities in Bangladesh say the number of people killed in a suspected gas explosion at a mosque has risen to 12 investigators suspect that a spark from an egg conditioning unit could have set off the gas at the mosque in the capital Dhaka Sudan has declared a national state of emergency for 3 months following devastating floods that have killed almost 100 people so Don Security and Defense Council designated the country a natural disaster zone and set up a body to coordinate the relief efforts within half a 1000000 people have been affected with about 100000 homes damaged. North Korea's ruling Workers' Party has vowed to severely punished local officials who reportedly failed to follow orders ahead of Typhoon storms that lashed the country's east coast this week resulting in what the state media said were dozens of casualties more from Asia Pacific editor say house in North Korean state television showed bridges and concrete walls destroyed by high floodwaters the aftermath of a powerful typhoon that hit the country on Wednesday a party newspaper said the local authorities in the coastal city of one son were responsible for dozens of deaths there irresponsible attitude let them to ignore emergency instructions the paper said and they failed to secure buildings at risk and prepare for a potential evacuation appealing young has not revealed the full death toll from a series of major storms and it's impossible to verify whether the officials truly ignored orders or if they're being unfairly targeted by Pyongyang to relieve public discontent Japan's Coast Guard says it's been forced to stop a search for the crew of a cargo ship that capsized 2 days ago because of an incoming typhoon with than 40 people working on board the ship which was transporting 6000 live cattle from New Zealand to Japan as the latest b.b.c. News. This is the real story from the b.b.c. I'm with the last show with your weekly deep dive into a story that's making news and changing lives and this week Twitter has taken down a presidential retreat Originally Posted by a believer of what used to be a fringe conspiracy theory in the us where we go on we go where we go one. Thousands of people have been posting online pledging allegiance to Q Q one on Q and on q. And on the only time I've ever really felt threatened was from the the q. People. Q. And on so q. Was supposedly a person in the deep state he has top secret clearance and he is helping Trump fight the tannic child sex slave spearheaded by Hillary Clinton Q began life in dark corners of the Internet dominated by disaffected young men but it's gone mainstream it's gone global and it's drawing on a whole new demographic the people attracted to q. And on were your typical middle american middle aged people I think of somebody who is white might be quite friendly and nice to be around but who also might hold political views that are fairly extreme Now President Trump himself is embrace the support of killing nonbelievers and there are growing concerns that the fantasy could end up promoting civil unrest we're here to take the country back we're not playing around if Joe Biden wins I'm scared for America because I believe that human eye will have something to say about it and we are large we are strong and where we go what we go on. We'll be hearing more about that phrase where we go one week old Later in the program and that's the tamer and this week's Real Story this is mind boggling stuff and it's spreading around the globe to help us make sense of it all to understand why we have a panel let's meet them Travis is the co-host of The Q And on anonymous. Cost Travis you I'm going to will ask you a question which I should all school panelists in turn have you will someone close to you as a dabbled in the world of conspiracy theories because small. Of course I mean like guys it's pretty evident from my Facebook feed I have family members who are interested in q. And a my own mom actually briefly in early 2018 so she will not legs but she didn't get too deep into it but yeah I'd say it's a common thing that people sort of get deep into his fears and there's a fascinating. Next panelist She's an analyst with the London based think tank beans team for strategic dialogue and co-author of a report on q. And a on the genesis of a conspiracy theory if it Travis seem to think that that she go on to conspiracy theories it's pretty usual Coleman have you will do you know anyone who's been drawn into a conspiracy theory. Yeah for sure I mean I don't know anyone very close to me that has really gotten very deep into Q And on but I'm definitely see in a lot more people kind of on my personal Facebook feeds that are sharing things that are kind of on the border that kind of conspiracy words and even myself like I'll fully admit that you know I watched nice guys when I 1st came out here they go and I was kind of like very interested and that's from what I fight back because while I'm still kind of having a good like you know my critical thinking I suppose and involved in and how you're going to describe those kind of theories Kevin Grisham is this is it director at the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism in California State University in San Bernardino Welcome to the real story Kevin Grisham what about you conspiracy theories that they sort of cross still you will pass the life we all social life to you know people who drill into the well like was just stated I obviously also. People I see posting things on my Facebook friends and kind of what's alarming actually to be as often these are colleagues of mine these are not just so people like teach with people in academia with the Globe so people you would. Expect to have more critical thinking skills but I can understand because we all sort of time probably have some sort of touch point where we think about conspiracies and I'm sure younger one of my life styles as well. Karen Douglas is professor of social psychology at the University of Kent in England Karen Douglas conspiracy theories have you ever been sucked in or do you know someone who has. Not really to be honest I think that like the previous bacon is I've noticed a lot more I guess an uptake in people's attraction to conspiracy theories throughout my Twitter fate and my Facebook friends but none of my really close friends I would say have been drawn into this well just yet Ok it's really interesting though interesting that you still recognise that conspiracy theories abound this particular one is well there it I think his is a word I might use to describe it let's start with the basics that Travis was Q And on what do you understand it to be so I understand to be both a sort of elaborate conspiracy theory narrative as a sort of a med error that connects all conspiracy theories but in addition to that I also would define it as this domestic extremist movement those are the broad outlines of the narrative is that the world's controlled by satanic a ball of Satan worshipping pedophiles and they control all the levers of power essentially and they will continue controlling all the levers of power were not for the election of Dol Trump to all followers believe that truck knows all about this wall is working to sort of defeat them and further if you will the followers believe that Trump is getting assistance from high level military intelligence officials who are sending out coded messages about this battle on the image boards started on 4 chan moved to a chant now sensation went down it's on the same as board called 8 coom and 2 of dollars believe that by decoding these messages these up what they call q. Drops they can sort of understand what's really going on behind the scenes now. In practice it leads them to believing a lot of really absurd things the most absurd as great as the theories you've ever heard of say there's a hell to unpack that let's just pick up in a couple of days elements that you described the pain if thing how important is it what do they believe about the children what happens to the children Yeah I mean they have a lot of misconceptions about the nature of human trafficking they essentially believe that this like kidnaps children and then tortures them and sometimes you know even kills them for a substance called adrenal crime which they believe again baselessly that the elites used to fight the effects of aging and to get high is a real substance but does not have any of the psychological or anti-aging of facts that people think it does and is the paedophile network thing something that everybody agrees about or just some people latch on to other parts of this that's think about Q And on the Sat I often call it kind of like a cafeteria conspiracy theory and that people can kind of like pick and choose what elements that most appeal to them but the part about the files is pretty central is nearly universal amongst the entire Q Not community if that's the basics of this conspiracy theory but there are the things that you would pay council perhaps highlight yet for shared like I started describing it as a digital culture and I think like there's a lot of kind of elements of it that do tie in to you know more cultish beliefs and I'm sure there's people here that know more about cults than I do but it's just their use of Montrose the kind of you know religious connotations and then the stories that we're hearing about a lot of people becoming very disconnected from their friends and families and kind of you know almost going to a rabbit hole so deep that they kind of come into this alternative reality as such so I think that is also an important parts of this whole movement as well the other things I would say is that I do believe that Travis was saying that kind. Human unbelief to fall along a spectrum kind of the end up more and more as it grows and becomes a newer form of this is the Save the Children movement which is kind of what I'm saying is kind of human on light you know we've seen quite a few rallies taking place kind of internationally like around this premise of Save the Children So I mean Save the Children is a very kind of simple and effective methods to get people to kind of start looking up this kind of content I suppose and we're just seeing it's really been used as an entry point for people to kind of get into that whole idea of human on Kevin question what would you highlight about it Well I think the other component that's starting to develop now is of course covert nineteen's sort of agree with Travis's point about sort of cafeteria style to refer to as a stew a conspiracy theory pick out the pieces you like the most to Javelin and so there seems to be a growing sense among some of the q. Followers on lined coat 19 is sort of this continuation of disco ball and they're using it to sort of just possibly Donald Trump's possibly election and sort of create this downfall of sort of quote unquote their Savior and this no it's more to unpack that but I just want to pick up on this idea of this link to corona virus and it does seem that the pandemic and a lot downs which of followed have aided the spread of the q. And a conspiracy theory as Correspondent Stephanie Hayes he found out when she spoke to one of these pushing it Nicknack tele I've only been actively posting it say for the past couple of months but the response I've gotten is insane what do you think of the pandemic I think it's a hoax I think that the rumor of the street is that President Trump is trying to get all these people to go to jail for pedophilia child sacrifice and that deep state has control of the media and put out this story to try to save their I told my broker I said if there's a virus there's a pandemic we're going to hear some we don't hear nothing and then what if it is real and and you're not. I think it's serious enough to worry about you know I don't want to get sick because they went outside without a mask because of me so I always wanted the research. But wholly but the attitude of many adult children whose often elderly parents have subscribed to the Q And on conspiracy theory is much less relaxed in the time of covered 90 I mean we stopped every day now she has no interaction with my daughter at all she's going deeper and deeper in my father is a cancer survivor and he's immuno compromised business putting his life at risk if you starts but. She's $81.00 and somewhere in the us she's not social distancing in any way the views of some whose parents have got drawn in to Q And on Karen Douglas if a Galahad talks about Q And on being like an online cult when she drew the same power do you think that conspiracy theories in general have that sort of cult to feel about. I think some of them do most of them probably do fit with some kind of formula and I think that one of the really striking things from a about q. And on is kind of the idea that you have this secret group of people that are controlling essentially everything and that's a very very common feature of a conspiracy theory that there is some kind of secret group that's doing something behind the scenes that you don't know about you can't control it and these ideas they all do sort of seem to fit together in some way and if a person is likely to played in one of these sorts of ideas then that will so likely to believe in others which is why you do find these online communities of people who might be anti faxes they might believe in q. And on their belief that Kovac 19 was a hard it's all of these ideas in some way start to fit together say they kind of resonate with a lot of people and yet you get this sort of proliferation of the conspiracy theories happening online so if you believe then all of a sudden lots and lots of others become plausible Travis but there is. Also this sort of game if occasional amends of killing known which is quite interesting it drools people in it what do you think it is a bit like again do you think that's how people see it I mean absolutely it is game of fide especially on like you see the on the Q Research Board on a q. And I mean the game is essentially trying to what they call decode the Q drops and this usually involves making a lot of nonsense connections but also involves trying to find clever memes or trying to find clever ways to spread the message of q. And on I mean the idea is that you come up with a good conspiracy theory good narrative a good spin and then they get picked up by the wider social networks or if you're on Twitter the game involves you know trying to come up with a good tweet that gets you what they call cued which means getting late to buy the key drops and this makes the whole process of being a q. Without fall or very active they get you with vested because he had make some feel like they're being part of a community and they're building towards something stupendous which is essentially this this great awakening and this that this great storm of mass arrests that they think is going to happen I mean if it is social media the main factor. I think that's what they want of the man back to ask for shared like the research that we did just a couple of months back we were kind of observing that he went on discussion was rising a lot through March and April I mean we did the analysis of just the very basic search for human on phrases and hashtags across all the mainstream pop arms the increase that we saw in the middle of March kind of coinciding with lockdowns was you know it was more drastic than even I thought it was going to be and what social media platforms do is kind of provide this algorithmically charge rabbit hole so at the beginning of the lockdown you're spending a lot of time on my you come across like it's very easy area bars 5 g. Possibly being responsible for Cove aids you might click into a group you might join a group kind of similar to that and then the next a you might be recommended a q. And on group and. So you might be recommending back they're great and this is kind of the same across platforms and same when you shoot as well these recommendations they're constantly kind of feeding you things that they think you're interested in so I think that you know social media plays a massive massive role in the spread of this yes Kevin Grecians a social media perhaps is the victim people are more isolated this spending more time online but why why would something like you Unknown be the thing that draws them in what is the the fundamental appeal of this conspiracy theory Well I think it's the same as for any conspiracy theory throughout history and that is you know whenever there's a complex issues facing the world and particularly something like overnight teen or other issues that have up ended our everyday life what ins of happening is people look for simple answers and of course as we all know there's not simple answers to very complex problems that we face people go to look for those kind of things as either said you can then very easily find things on mainstream social platforms or you don't have to go to the dark recesses the web to find it and so I think that you know it appeals to people to find this true so-called truth and what they think what I'm actually built to understand their own lives what they're seeing in the world and then what happens is once people get sucked in then they sort of get sucked into this echo chamber where it just kind of starts reverberating over and over again what they believe Karen Douglas didn't do you subscribe to this idea that if that draws people the need for said to that draws people to conspiracy theories Absolutely it is definitely one of the main psychological drivers for belief in conspiracy theories the psychological research would suggest that people draw into conspiracy theories specifically in the hope that they going to satisfy important psychological needs even though they probably don't help and one of them is definitely this nature and knowledge and certainty so people are looking for the troops they want to be knowledgeable and conspiracy theories often not often very nice but and ease they to grow. Explanation for what's going on and a person or group of people to blame for what's going on and in a time of crisis like this when people are really on set and they really need a talking Fatsis they want to kind of try to find a way to cope with a very very difficult situation that is increasing race feelings of onset and say thank you spears he carries might seem to have some kind of a payoff a show so it is fascinating trying to do you go this idea this cult this movement call it what you want the office he said and see often see someone today but it also has some very. Very catchy phrases I mean just tell us about some of these Yeah I mean these phrases are really what they call thought terminating cliches and this is a concept usually in cults where they take a certain phrase to basically resolve cognitive dissonance and stop people from thinking too deeply about whether their beliefs are true and well of them is distant from nation is necessary and this is a belief that whenever q. Says something that sort of possibly untrue or misleading or it says Q Well followers down the wrong path this wasn't the result of q. Beating wrong but rather this was part of a strategy that he was employing in order to trick the evil Cobol with this information and also that one the the where we go one we go all that about yes of course where we go we go Wall is a sort of a rallying cry actually comes from the 996 film White Squall And essentially as opposed to me like you know we're all one big team we're all coming together which is you know a very clever way to get sort of this diverse coalition that believes lots of often contradictory conspiracy theories to come together under a single the single banner of Q It is it is absolutely fascinating and complex arsenal really other aspects of this and so many aspects but another aspect of this is that President Trump is at the Home Office of the Cuban on conspiracy theory as Travis was. Finding at the beginning it's important believe he's working to save them from this pitiful kind of ballistic cabal 2 weeks ago standing behind the podium in the White House briefing room don't trump was asked about the a parenting increase in support for q. And on during the pandemic Well I don't know much about the movement other than I understand they like me very much. Which I appreciate but I don't know much about the movement I have heard that it is gaining in popularity from what I've hears these are people that say they watch the streets of Portland when they watch what happened in New York City in just the last 6 or 7 months but this was starting even 4 years ago when I came here almost 4 years can you believe. That these are people that don't like seeing what's going on in places like Portland in places like Chicago and New York and other cities and states and. I've heard these are people that love our country and they just don't like seeing it. Disappear e. It is this belief that you are secretly saving the world from this thing can hold pedophiles and can people does that sound like something you. Find out I haven't I haven't heard that but. Is it supposed to be a bad thing or is it. If I can tell perceive the world from problems I'm willing to do it I'm willing to put myself out there that's President Trump spelling out what he sees as the high stakes of their selection and then the Kevin Christian. Tacit support but it's a nice his failure to distance himself from it actually perhaps encourages some supporters to fully embrace. Oh I think so I mean we've been looking you know as fairly as yesterday postings on the 2 followers and it's pretty clear that over the last week or 2 but as President Trump is sort. Tacit support and course in some cases retreating what she's done many times including on July 4th re tweeted 14 times Q And on related material just on the 4th of July here states that the q. And a on fall or c. Just says he's going to give them a wink and a nod of like yes I am on the inside I'm trying to do what you think I'm supposed to do so just give them more support and actually kind of reinvigorates them and then we have members of Congress or people who are running for Congress and United States of course also a retreating material or even just coming out and actually saying a lot of the same things you see on your non coast and of course that also continues to give greater rallying cry for to not followers kind of you do you see this as and mashed in mainstream post takes you to do people feel it's their duty as conservatives to support the president against the neighborhood late therefore they may side with Cuban on it if fails very simplistic they actually have been a handful of Republican leaders in the Congress who have spoken against Q And on the most notable one is House minority leader Kevin McCarthy who claimed that it has no place in the Republican Party but generally they are very reluctant to speak out against it for example even though several people in the White House such as press secretary have all been asked about you and on none of them have said a bad word about it I mean this is simply relates to the fact that it's simply not Trump's nature to denounce anyone who supports him very strongly I mean he sees the world in terms of allies and enemies and community are certainly allies of his. Is this particularly significant because this is a time in which that disputed how does that play into how we see politics and the political thing yeah I mean reaction to that question you know I think it was all of exactly what he went on followers were looking for and they've been waiting for that moment for you know years not for trying to actually acknowledge them. I think that if he had said the complete opposite and if he had said that it was all a lie none of it was true you know he went on followers so would have been able to rationalize in some way and kind of you know say Ok you still say no because that's what he has to say to cover up for what he's actually doing so it's all kind of coming to have not been this kind of new word in the part conspiracy theories and how many people are describing and I think it's one of kind of the most worrying elements of this is the fact that you know a lot of people have just blanket distrusts and expert opinion and you know the media in general and any kind of information that comes I don't know blissed institutions or governments and I think that is a big problem and it's one that really needs to be tackled kind of center rather never more to think about that we have to take a short break now but just turned 19 if you're enjoying the program you can subscribe to our podcast just search for b.b.c. The real story and do this know what you think of the program and any ideas you might have the topics you can find on regular. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service of the us is paid possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media with support from the online test prove. That a.z.t. And essay teach staying at home is a great time to prepare for something new with self guided lessons and support from a group called. Coming up on the real story in the next half hour the conspiracy theory behind masing far fetched but it's cryptic hints that as a global paedophile network a powerful deep state polling in delivers all seem to be rooted in American politics with Donald Trump a trade as the savior is gaining followers around the world who is strong and secure and all and why is the theory a sinister curiosity or does it pose a bigger threat that saw after a summary of the news b.b.c. News with Debbie rests President Trump has declined to condemn Russia over the poisoning of the opposition leader Alexei no Valmy who is in a coma in a hospital in Germany experts there say they have evidence Mr Novelli was attacked with a nerve agent developed by Soviet Russia this is John said he'd seen no proof that mist in the valley had been poisoned the World Bank has cancelled a loan for a controversial dam in Lebanon which has long been opposed by environmentalists in a statement the World Bank said it was withdrawing its commitment to provide $244000000.00 in loans for the biggest 3 g. To the value of the authorities to meet all requirements to continue with the project the Indian Health Ministry has introduced on demand tests for the corona virus as the number of confirmed infections spiraled past 4000000 the ministry said people can get tested without a prescription China's demanded that India immediately withdraw its troops from what it claims is its territory along the border in the Himalayan region the defense minister way from her told his Indian counterpart that Delhi was entirely responsible for the current border tensions both sides have deployed thousands of troops in the low dark region after a clash in June. North Korea's ruling Workers' Party has said it was severely punished local officials who reportedly failed to follow orders ahead of Typhoon storms that lashed the country's east coast this week they resulted in what state media said were dozens of casualties schools in Iran have reopened for the 1st time since the coronavirus pandemic Iranian President Hassan Rouhani began the new school year with a speech in which he said that education in the country would not be closed even in the worst circumstances but the Medical Council in Iran has strongly advised against the reopening b.b.c. News. You know listening to the real story from the b.b.c. World Service with me with Russia this week are asking if q. And on is going we're joined by Travis knew of the Q and on and on in this podcast but if I get a half in the London based think tank the Institute for Strategic Dialogue can and this is professor of social psychology at the University of Kent in England and Kevin question is from the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at California State University in San Bernadino Day Now we tried to get grips with this conspiracy theory and how it's catching on but now I think we're going to get to look at its appeal to certain groups and the way in which it has become globalized something that comes up time and again when discussing human on is its religious save its haze the use of religious language and concepts and since passed not surprising that it holds an appeal to people of faith and in the u.s. That tends to be white Christian evangelicals and Stetson is a prominent evangelical author and the executive director of the Billy Graham center of college that's an evangelical liberal arts college in Illinois he's been speaking out against Q And on I asked him whether he has met a key one on the level yes I actually have a couple of peak hour sessions with friends one of whom I would say has actually maintained a more traditional understanding of Christianity but it's sort of layered you kumin on on top of it or throughout it sees it more as a harmless belief system because she told him of the believes that there is indeed this this you know shadowy figure behind the scenes leaking information and assisting in what ultimately will be to the great awakening the end of the ailing of this mass conspiracy others I've actually seen say I you know I've left my church left organized his term was organized religion because they're simply not telling the truth my pastor spoke out about Q And on really in his language she sort of replaced and I could easily substitute words Q And on. For words like Christ and q. And on for words like God because if you're not on to this person has become this behind the scenes powerful force at work bringing about right in the world when on the other side there's this dark powerful force that he's working against and one of the things you have to not miss is human on his very religious overtones and sometimes religious people are attracted to that in the case of the 1st woman I mentioned attracted to that but still would be a person of worlds Orthodox Christian believes in the other case it's become overwhelming and in some ways a replacement for his former practice of Christianity do you think that's perhaps quite deliberate that whoever is the hurry and all of this is deliberately adopting Christian themes Well that's a good question I mean we certainly saw in the last election cycle that Russian bought strolled farms particularly did focus on religious conservatives and so if there is a person if Arius Lee I get paid to make I have a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy very different that someone was seeking to sow division in our society yet you know targeting religious conservatives does seem to have a positive track record for these kinds of conspiracies I wish it weren't true I've written on it before I've called you know gullibility is not a spiritual gift is an article that I wrote and I don't want Christians to be easily fooled and any election cycle or any daily interaction What's the response been to those who have spoken there are lots of reaction do you get. There are times when things will explode on social media at one point there are about 10000 tweets directed at me and one day and actually led to a Snopes article debunking what was said in those tweets that was somehow secretly funded one of the common conspiracies that is that George Soros is behind everything you know and he's been secretly funding what we do which just for the record since I lead a center dedicated to evangelism of George Soros wants to give. Yes millions of dollars I'd be happy to use it to share the Good News of the gospel around the world however he wouldn't and he hasn't but that became you know this kind of targeting that you have to sort of be a part of the conspiracy if you speak out against that conspiracy and I think ultimately that's the place where we find that targeting directed towards us is there a danger that if given the way are given the compulsive nature of social media that actually could become more attractive than Christianity itself I think that's already happening I think ultimately with the self perpetuating reality the echo chambers that social media is that too many Christians are being discipled by their social media rather than the Word of God their local church biblical community they're being discipled by social media in such a way that their entire belief system is morphing into something different and that's why I think Christians need to speak up and speak out on this issue because it is leading you know I think things Christians talk about as people being led astray I believe that human on is leading Christians astray and ultimately it's the job of a shepherd pastor to speak up and to say no no no this is don't be fooled by this because part of the reality is Christians already believe some strange things you know I believe that God the Son was born in the backwaters of the Roman Empire in the middle of nowhere lived to sinless life died on the cross and God raised Him from the dead in the 3rd day I believe he's coming back one day riding on a white horse with a flaming sword coming out of his mouth I already believe some strange things so layering on things that are demonstrably untrue that have proven themselves to be false over and over again the end result is Christians damage their own credibility don't nobody wants to hear the Good News of the Gospel from somebody who is easily fooled in other issues and so I think it's an important time for Christians to stand up on these issues and to point to a different and a better. But do you think the source of your eyes ation that we see in the media and politics has kind of played into this because isn't it interesting that fake is like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama has sort of been all of it and yet in both cases they are people who attend church would describe themselves as Christian and yet because of the political divide they have been demonized by sensations the media you know most of Angelakos were example not of these Yeah stick our even opposed Hillary Clinton she you know i Slate magazine quoted me as saying Hillary Clinton worked hard to eliminate eventual goals and it worked I mean her campaign was not engaging like I don't like rock Obama tried and Joe Biden is trying but what happened is then it became not just an opponent politically with different views on abortion and religious liberty but she's actually part of that a couple All that is evil and stem ticals is everywhere and so what happens is people who have already rejected mainstream nudist will then find themselves caught up in alternative news and the end result is they believe the worse not just I disagree not just I voted against this person I just like to have deeply held views are different than her but no she's part of a pedophile ring around the world that's. Can Bush and he was remarkably frank about the impact it's having How would you see the significance of killing on this religious the pale Well I think you know it's cute you anon is very somewhere and he alluded to this fact that religion is of course this idea that we're trying to uncover a greater truth and so on a course just intertwines itself very well without using the same symbology this kind of idea of creating Trump as a savior and so all that sort of those those symbols that they wrap themselves within is very. It's appealing to some people particularly in the given times we live in because you may have evangelical Christians who say Well I'm I'm looking at my life and even though I've been living a good life now it's not really working out the way I want to why not and so this provides an alternative but yet parallel sort of argument for what is the ultimate truth. And yet travesty this is worth a violent tend to suggest for they perpetrators I think there's a hanging involved and some of these people are well named politicians who have to take this as a reason she can disagree with or agree with it strange that runs things for some people to run comfortably alongside There it is just pretty well I mean the one thing that bothers this concept of what they call the storm which is this mass arrests event in which show of their their hated enemy is and the entertainment politics are swept up and arrested and sent to get my where possibly face military tribunals and I feel like a lot of this sort of echoes the evangelical concept of the rapture and they believe that some of them believe that there's going to be a great grand day of reckoning in which sort of evil is sort of cleanse of the earth is a buzz almost kind of like a reverse rapture in the belief that you know over 100000 people who are that they believe are committing unimaginable evils are going to be swept away and sort of dealt with in which case even does that sort of explain why we're seeing key paste is in countries like Germany Brazil Canada the u.k. Is one assessment suggests that perhaps it's more than $71.00 countries yet for sure I think you know if you had talks between years ago and I asked if this was going to spread kind of internationally I probably would have said no but I think that the pandemic was very much of an actor for hire this spreads and you know it kind of introduced elements to Cuban on that aren't as us focused I suppose and certainly we certainly see that kind of what is helping express another like element kind of the religious element of this is well is that's you know a couple of months ago our ranking cardinal in the Vatican actually wrote a letter to doll and the latter he kind of speaks about you know the battle like a. You know the children of the lights and children of the dark and uses terms like the stairs and these are all very direct references and you know the fact that this is kind of reached Vatican level kind of really shows the pirate and they're in a religious kind of static could raise that's really interesting and there is no doubt that Q unknowns influence is spreading. In London's Trafalgar Square last weekend hundreds turned out to protest against coronavirus lockdowns mosque mandates in vaccines among the signs arguing that covered 19 is a hoax and that organizations like the w.h.o. And the b.b.c. Shouldn't be trusted with signs backing cue an aging action to save the children a similar scene played out on the same day in Berlin where among the crowd of protesters this is a far right group attended to storm Germany's parliament building the Reichstag some had exhibit insignia from the far right right go right citizens movement and the German president described the unrest as an intolerable attack on the country's democracy and vice chancellor all of Schultz condemned the father this comes just after meeting him on the bus I need to get some boy it's not acceptable and it must not be tolerated that some appeared in front of the Bundestag building the rock star building the most important symbol of our democracy the parliament which symbols from a bad dark past flags that have nothing to do with our modern democracy and that these people refuse the necessary respect and instead remember those bad times of Germany's pasta are going hype and dogs. Laugh Scholtz Kevin question is it possible to accurately estimate or somehow estimate the numbers of people around the world who are paps latching on to q. And on and where they are well there have been some studies decently Marcum through Argentina qwerty University Canada had actually been looking at social media. Platforms and actually suggest there might be as much as $179.00 this is before Facebook started taking down accounts but as of that time there was about $179.00 groups and out of that the vast majority of them were in the u.s. Followed by Germany and actually the biggest growth was actually in Brazil so so this shows you just a little bit of the inside of the globalization of this conspiracy and to those followers in Germany or Brazil's inscribe to the whole thing or just the elements of it do we know I think they're picking up pieces of it I was in Germany last November's that this was precluded 19 in having conversations and they just elected for the 1st time in the throwing of province provincial elections they're far right leaders to the actual provincial council and I was asking colleagues and they were already worried about things like you and on and people who are associated with that at that point and mostly when you talk to them they said you know there was an air Twining often and there a case of some before right use as well as a Q And on callers that were going to Germany I would imagine that might still be going on today and try to see you I think to have a safe to it is taken down to 3 Facebook groups is it too late for any of that to be effective yeah it's clearly too late I mean the problems associated with followers radicalising on these platforms have been evident for years away back in September of 28 teen Reddit banned all q. And on related sub sub right it's because they are had problems with Target harassment and now because Facebook is not just allowed this to grow their platform because the in addition to that Facebook also promoted q. And on pages in their algorithms as a consequence of that the network of 21 of followers has extend beyond any individual social network so yeah any of these actions will have much impact on the growth of the Q Not community in the future if again it is there are no various way to try and. Call people back from this especially if they won't believe mainstream media and political ficus you know the kind of advice that I've been giving people that have been reached 900 like a bite people in their lives who have kind of started down this path is to keep the lines of communication open and you know make sure that you don't just dismiss them as crazy I suppose and try and keep them in your life because that what you don't want to happen I suppose is this you know complete detachment from reality from the people that are actually in their lives that are supportive pretty much every conspiracy theory you know there are kernels of truth and conspiracy theories and they're all just put together in radiological ways and I think you know if people want to talk to people about these conspiracy theories talk about the true elements often talk about you know what is actually true and put the truth into the context that they needed to be and because like most of the conspiracy theories just bombard you with information what are the correct context or I just I'm not is what creates this kind of tunnel like vision I suppose I'm fascinated by this sort of international range of the do you think different elements that appear in different contexts so if you're in Brazil perhaps you have a situation where content has run rampant you have taken a political says institutions perhaps and not a strong someone not Europe is that perhaps the anti semitism that appeals and I different things that reach out to different sections of society yeah for sure there is and I kind of what we're seeing as this is spreading internationally is that it's certainly being weaponized by by far right groups in countries like the u.k. And Germany and even and Ireland you know that the core kind of beliefs appearing on have definitely not followed this movement overseas but what we're seeing a lot of French and I include you know country or region kind of specific conspiracy theories and because Cuban and promotes this you know blanket distrust and media and institutions you know this you know this. It's been used by far right groups to promote their own causes I'm we're kind of see in you know in the say in the u.k. And Ireland a lot of the groups that are organizing these you know on the mosque grounds he locked on protests are very much kind of lengths to the far right as well so you know this kind of new conspiracy movement kind of creates a new audience I suppose for the far right to cross on to and to use these pretty much the same permission from parents to kind of spread their message and that carried out this is it in a sense quite glamorous to feel your pulse of an international club I think so and conspiracy theories in general do offer people the idea that they have a unique knowledge that other people don't have and that can be quite satisfying like reasonably strong links between this if NATO. And other. Other factors like narcissism and belief in conspiracy theories people just do like to be different to other people they like to stand out from the crowd they like to feel that they have knowledge that that other people don't necessarily have it might be a way for people who don't fail a very strong sense of power in their lives so well feel that they don't have control over these days crisis situations these difficult circumstances they're trying to cope with that gives them that sense of power back a little bit so they might at least I suppose think that they're feeling a little bit better and how would you try to talk someone down persuade someone to hats think differently. Well I think that's actually very very challenging because once a person believes something very very strongly then it's very very difficult to change those strong and attitudes and strong opinions I think personally ridiculing the personal being hostile tactics that are very likely to backfire I think these individuals are already feeling quite alien 8 says. And living on the fringes a lot of the time and I think that communicating with them like this is likely so just alienate them further I think that one good approach might be to appeal to people's desire for critical thinking and we know that a lot of conspiracy believers do view themselves as critical thinkers are people who are who are actively searching for the truth they're on picking the evidence they're looking for underlying pieces of information that help you understand the truth so I think that perhaps one strategy might be to ask people to think critically about where are they getting their information from searches think about the source of the information is it reliable is it credible for example and I think that perhaps appealing to this critical thinking might be a good way to confront people with the errors in the ways that they seeking the information the places of finding information and also it might be a way to allow them to correct their beliefs Kevin question given the operating in a world where there is widespread distrust of wealth or is he where there's skepticism of the institutions. Is killing known more than a curiosity Well I think so I mean if if we look at recent events where we've had individuals the gentleman who wrote true of his armored car modified armored car over to the Hoover Dam and other accounts it is something we can't just slightly dismiss we do to worry about those individuals who just see this cue in on environment as basically just a written a reality and if they're working on that reality we don't know what kind of actions election we take and of course what makes it even more problematic is now we're seeing sort of chewing on followers and vacs or is a variety of other groups and conspiracies and different types of more extremist views sort of intertwining with each other and that makes them incredibly dangerous and remember it only takes really one person to really cause damage so you don't need a full group of people doing it but if one or 2 people take very serious action then that can be very threatening to society but I wonder travesty how significant the killing on will be if trying doesn't win the November election they may become even more significant if Trump doesn't win the election just because it will you know they will they will of the majority follow to find a rationalization of why this doesn't this doesn't does confirm their beliefs and that they may even go deeper into believing this the other risk is that there may be some cool of followers who stop trusting the plan to stop believing that there is a secret plan to cleanse the world of evil and with that carries the risk that they may start taking matters into their own hands. That's an interesting what if again I would you subscribe to that do you think there is this sort of. Almost independent action that can grow out of this yes for sure I mean I think you hit on conspiracies in general you know they do tend to appeal to kind of vulnerable people and if we think of. Past 6 months and pretty much everyone's lives you know if someone has lost their job or their livelihoods. And on top about they might have you know underlying health mental health issues you know there's certainly a possibility that this kind of conspiratorial thinking could lead them to do harm to themselves or to others so it's been true for close I guess what I'm interested in asking all of you is. Term effect of something like this is if Q And on is here to stay for at least a little while more does it change what does it affect kind of this brutally conspiracy theories can they change the discourse do you think. Yeah I think this is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that that conspiracy theories can have quite negative effects both for the person who believes them and society at large when you only have to look at and t. Facts conspiracy theories to say that they're having quite a significant impact on people's facts vaccination uptake. So I think that these conspiracy theories this this this Q It all phenomenon could be potentially radicalizing as some of the others have said I think that if it sticks around for a little while it could have some some potentially quite negative effect on people's engagement with politics generally they could disengage they could go for more radical options Travis you know I am still quite stuck on this idea that it's taken hold all over the place under very different political circumstances so what do you think the long term effects of of a cult like your own could be it's not really a question that conspiracy theories can have profound impacts on you know political life I mean the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories specially those like rooted in like the prayer calls of the elders I on the other anti-Semitic propaganda have had massive hit backs on 20th century history you know but I think that this. I often say you know this is the sort of thinking this sort of belief that people can sort of decode was really going on behind the scenes as probably just with us from now on this is this kind of thinking is going to be you know with us for probably at least a generation and we see how stuck and there are ways of cool a fuller shower and then the way that they bring their children into their belief I when I go to Cuba a lot of rallies they often bring their children who shout queue lost love is love with them so that makes me pretty confident that this is just going to be a feature of political life that we're going to have to reckon with. If they get ahead of the conspiracy theories might change but the movement the idea is the kind of general way of thinking the mistrust is here today. Yeah unfortunately I do believe so and I think that you know the kind of depletion of the media plays a big role in this is while obviously in the past you know 1520 years the media have struggled to kind of keep up with the changes the kind of digital changes that are that are taking place and you know with this kind of the policeman and media resources there is created a vacuum pretty much that the media accounts because they don't have the resources to do it and that vacuum has been filled with conspiracy theories online so I do believe that you know there's a lot of different elements going on here unless you know there is there is some kind of an effort put into rebuilding the media into a really trustable kind of an industry. That's just going to continue getting version would you think the long term impact of something like. Well I tend to agree Travis I think it's going to be something is going to be with us for some time and obviously other conspiracy theories as you suggested suggest it will be with us I think as long as we have the situation where there's a distrust in institutions that globally people tended to trust in the media government people going to look to alternatives for sort of the truth of what they think is going on and so what really needs to happen probably long term is sort of how do we rebuild the trust and that's something that's probably going to be taking at least a generation or for that to actually happen well this has been a fascinating conversation there is so much still left to say but unfortunately that's it for this week on The Real Story thank you very much to guests at Kevin Gresham travesty and Karen Douglas if you listen to the program again or any other from the archive you can do say Web site or your preferred podcast at there you can listen that to the conversation we had a lot. The state of politics in Russia. Vladimir Putin's main opponent. Presentations held power for more than 20 years and remains popular but how much appetite is there in the country for a big change at the top and if the Kremlin responsible for the long list of government opponents who met with foul play just search for b.b.c. The real story on subscribe but for this week for me. The real story thank you for your company do join us again next time. Catching up with your loved ones while you're stuck at home. And what was that your uncle just said because his microphone was catching up with the news and information you need well that. Every weekday on this station to Morning Edition from n.p.r. News stay connected. Mornings from 5 to 9. This is Connecticut Public Radio n.p.r. Interview n.p.r. H.-d. One marriage in. Norwich. Stamford. Fairfield n.p.r. .