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And n.p.r. 81 married and 90.5 w p k t w p k t h d one Norwich 89.1. 88.5 our ally Southampton at 91.3 and w n p dot org The following program was previously recorded It's 8 o'clock. Remember the gardener the character and being near Chance has been raised in isolation there's something wrong with him most of his information is coming from television he doesn't really know anything but as you ventures out into the world he is mistaken for a savant people who are so hungry for leadership for some kind of out of the box view of a chaotic world gravitate towards him it's clear at the end of the movie even though he's a complete fool he's going to become president and. In his new book critic James pano was there seemed so similar picture of Donald Trump a product of television somebody who knew the world through television who became known through television who in essence is a television character to talk more about that after the news. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Janine Herbst Republicans are stepping up their fight against the impeachment inquiry of President Trump as N.P.R.'s Claudio ghazal is Reports Senator Lindsey Graham and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell are pushing legislation condemning the process behind the inquiry Graham says he has more than 40 Republican co-sponsor so far his resolution would need a simple majority to pass the South Carolina lawmaker says it's part of a g.o.p. Effort to ramp up the public fight against impeachment Graham said White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney is working on a communication strategy I think they're working on getting a messaging team together Graham says he wants Trump to focus on his job as president and not impeachment cloudy the sun this n.p.r. News the Capitol wildfires in northern California's wine country are forcing thousands to flee and the state's biggest utility Pacific Gas and Electric is conducting another plant power outage as a safety precaution the Kinkaid fire in Geyserville has burned some $10000.00 acres and is 0 percent contained and another rapidly advancing fire is racing toward scientifically Reda north of downtown Los Angeles the v.a. Inspector general's investigation into the office charged with protecting whistleblowers inside the Department of Veterans Affairs has instead put them at risk N.P.R.'s Quil Lawrence explains one of the trumpet ministrations Kidd accomplishments on Veterans Affairs was the office of accountability and whistleblower protection it was meant to make it safer to report waste or abuse inside v.a. And make it easier to fire bad staff V.A.'s inspector general has concluded that especially in its 1st 2 years the office failed to push out poor performing senior officials did not conduct accurate or unbiased investigations failed to protect whistleblowers and in some cases may have retaliated against the people reporting waste or harm to vet. Friends at the v.a. V.a. Officials responded that in recent months the v.a. Has moved to address many of the problems highlighted in the report Quil Lawrence n.p.r. News in Chicago classes will be canceled again tomorrow as the teachers union and the school district continue to try to work out a new contract both sides in the country's 3rd biggest school district say they made progress in talks today but disagreements remain on issues including class size and staffing 25000 members of the teachers union walked out October 17th and that has 300000 students out of the classroom a disappointing 3rd quarter profit in revenue numbers a Twitter said shares of the social media company down just over 20 percent by the close today this despite the fact that the company added more new users Twitter blames bugs in its advertising software and slower than expected demand for ads this summer Wall Street ended the day in mixed territory the Dow down 28 Nasdaq up 66 this is n.p.r. For the 2nd day in a row violent protests of rock Ethiopia with local media reports of at least 20 dead in the clashes N.P.R.'s later Peralta reports protesters are angry with the country's newly minted Nobel laureate prime minister Abi protesters are angry because they believe the government try to intimidate Jaguar Mohammed a media mogul that one of the leading activists in the country so they've taken to the streets blocked roads and in some cases the said business is on fire Jaguar was once a close ally to Prime Minister Abby Achmet but in an interview with n.p.r. He says their vision for Ethiopia has drifted apart he says the prime minister even issued a veiled threat but he is not afraid I wanted it to be known. No amount of threat would force me to leave the country the worry is that the feud between these 2 men will lead Ethiopia to a spiral of violence in a Prata n.p.r. News Nairobi. Orders to u.s. Factories for big ticket items fell in September by the largest mountain for months the Commerce Department says durable goods orders dropped 1 point one percent last month because of declining demand for cars and airplanes that's the biggest setback sense a 2.3 percent decline in May and orders tied to business investment also dropped by a half percent suggesting business owners are still wary about future economic prospects Asian markets are trading in mixed territory at this hour the Asia Dow is down a fraction crewel prices higher by the Bell a 4 tenths of a percent I'm Janine Herbst n.p.r. News in Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include American Jewish World Service working together for more than 30 years to build a more just and equitable world learn more at a.j. Ws dot org and the listeners who support this n.p.r. Station. For some people the ultimate goal in life as being a kind of the president of the United States when terms like to be the president states I really don't believe I would why wouldn't you dedicate yourself to public service because I think it's a very mean life and I also see it that someone with strong views and somebody with the kind of views that are maybe a little bit unpopular which may be right but may be unpopular wouldn't necessarily have a chance of getting elected again somebody with no great brain but a big smile and that's a sad commentary for the political process television a strange way has that process has been that it's raised the processor in much I mean the Abraham Lincoln's of the world Abraham Lincoln would probably not be electable today because of television he was not a handsome man and he did not smile at all he would not be considered to be a prime candidate for the presidency and that's a shame as a country if we had one man and it's really not that big a situation you know people say well what could anybody do as president one man can turn this country around one proper president can turn this country around I firmly believe that all right that's Donald Trump I think he knew that but it's 19 eighties talking a roll of Barrett October 6th 1930 were right on the cusp actually of television and movie actor getting elected president a guy who was pretty good looking and did smile apparently Abraham Lincoln. Sure troops knew nothing about. The view but he'd seen on television so I was not like that but so we were going to have a president who was an actor and sometimes seem to be acting as president and also seemed to occasionally confusion television and movie scripts that he'd been involved with reality so Trump meanwhile is kind of saying a guy like him can never get elected president you might have been right at that moment but as James pano was a good illustrates in his new. Audience of one Donald Trump television and the fracturing of America television and media and the way in which our entertainment culture overlap with our political process was going to change over the in soon 35 years in such a way that obviously somebody like Donald Trump even the way that he describes himself could win the presidency and did so James Poniewozik is with us right now it's exciting to have you and what else do I need to say before we get going here while the church you television critic for The New York Times so. So we just listen to that clip we hear Trump especially saying that he could many of someone like him could never make it and in many ways the whole thrust of your book is asking the question Well what changed you know what changed in the in those 35 years I know you want to pick one or 2 things to get us started Sure I mean I mean I think that's exactly right how do we get there from here because it because I think he was essentially right somebody like the Donald Trump that we see today you know scowling angry provoke provoking you know probably could not have gotten elected in the t.v. Era of that time and you know a couple of things that happened of course over the course that time sort of the 2 parallel stories in the book is number one that Donald Trump made himself into a television celebrity and he is as special I think he is he is more significant to the country as kind of a 35 year t.v. Performance a t.v. Character than as you know an actual biographical person number one and number 2 television changed and the larger electronic media change and the the nutshell you know quick quick description of how it's changed is that it went from a mass media to an issue medium way went from the time when there were 3 major networks and everything on the air sort of had to be broadly you know often blandly appealing to a point when you have all sorts of media outlets that are micro targeted. Micro audiences and their raison d'être is to provide things that are not for everybody but they're very specifically for an intensely interested group and that both changes the business of television obviously but it also kind of changes the tone of the content of television so that you know it becomes and becomes a more hospitable environment for more polarizing figures so you have broad strokes I think those are the big things that changed from then to here yeah and we're going to explore all of those things if we have enough time here as we go along I want to begin though kind of where you begin which is the mis education of Donald Trump or of how did how does he. Even as a child we don't know one of the things that fascinates me about Trump is he doesn't really cite culture that much specific instances of popular culture we know I don't know his favorite Beatle isn't probably neither do you I learned more from your book about what a movie is to him or what television is to him than I've learned study him studying him pretty closely lo these last few years so it's an interesting question anyway that you explore how how did he study television what was popular culture to him as he grew up here you know I don't know if he studied television so much as he intuited it is sort of interesting that he is somebody who is both a creature of popular culture and yet has a very specific interests and and seeming blank spots but you know I think it's when you look at his early life when you look at the art of the deal for instance you know his for his 1st book he doesn't talk a lot about his childhood but one of the few memories that he relates is watching his mother who was a Scottish emigre Sit down from the television all day when he was about 7 years old and watched the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth on television and it's you know it's sort of the 1st you know it's the 1st time that we have seen. The live or almost live the coronation of a monarch and it's kind of an example of the new world that kids of his era are being introduced to you know where there is suddenly this 2nd virtual place in your living room that can you know bring you an ocean away and show you these images of grand jury and majesty and ceremony and you know he talks about how his mother was swept away by the glamour and the of the ornament of it all as opposed to his father who was much more practical and business minded it and you know describes the sort of formative experience for him in that way I think but I think in another way it was really. It was an example of how you know he was starting to realize the power of this new thing that existed in the world right you have the contrast between this and his father's real estate business while nobody's mother sits around all day entranced by the workings of a construction crane you know but television like it's match you know it's literally something almost magical and he I think decided early on that he early on in his career he toyed with the idea of going off to Hollywood and working in the entertainment business and he decided not to but he said early on I'm going to bring showbusiness into real estate and what I think that essentially meant for him was that you know having seen this you know gotten this glimpse of this magic power of showbiz glamour he knew that that courting celebrity was sort of that was a power that you could leverage into other things right so I want to stay a little bit with his the time of his childhood and yeah things that he might have been influenced by just for a nother minute or 2 show or to hear from the magical world of Disney Season one Episode 14 Davy Crocket goes to Congress I think we're hearing of 1st Parker here of Davy Crocket. Why d.g. I didn't expect you back for all we know I'll be if you're worried about it in your belly it's all they've already passed to change your mind. I'm warning you rocket going there dramatic political suicide I. Think about your kind of politics. So you're actually hearing David Crockett punch out some action at the end here and there's a way in which trump. Maybe is influenced by that idea that a good decisive thing that you could do is punch somebody out he doesn't seem to be the guy who does that but it you know eventually gets involved with the World Wrestling Federation there's ways in which. One of the things that he sees is this kind of rough and tumble version of reality yet he's at least attracted by the theater of you know you're right it's not like you know Donald Trump is you know actually going and punching out lawmakers in the halls but a lot of his rhetoric is sort of about nostalgia for a time when you know people settled things you know often violently and with their fists rise to talk about that a lot of Israel is back when we were back when we were strong and wise you know we used to rough up protesters that sort of thing you know I think that if you look at the television of his youth you can still see you know you can sort of see the mindset of the adult Donald Trump who became a political figure this notion of you know how red blooded men solve disputes this kind of fathers novus best concept of masculinity and as you say one of the programs that we know that don't trump is as a as a young boy I was fascinated by was he was he was a fan of professional wrestling professional wrestlers and he ultimately would become as a a real estate and hotel entrepreneur get drawn into the world of wrestling 1st hosting Wrestle Mania is at his properties in Atlantic City and then actually becoming a character in the world of the w w e and sparring with Vince McMahon and having scripted fights with him he has a w.b. Paula Fame member you know you could look it up and again you know this was in a way kind of training for the persona that he presented as a a political figure and leader a lot of the stuff if you go and if you pull up video of you know one of his rallies and look at it through the frame of wrestling so much of it as is Wrestle Mania like the it or you know the cheering crowd the way that the crowd will get going and he'll step away and kind of raised his arms and you know encourage the sound to build like he's a. You know like all coding literally you stick to it that you know you know and I think that a lot of sort of rudimentary theatrical training in those early years in front of the tube right and then of course those circles started to overlap even earlier with Jesse Ventura and of course I live here in Connecticut where both Richard Blumenthal and Chris Murphy had to defeat Linda McMahon wife events in order to become u.s. Senators so so yes we know we know that somehow rather the style the theatrical style violent but figure of wrestling begin to line up in kind of an interesting way with with American political theater. So you know but it's then so the fight the fight becomes a very interesting thing to trump and so one of the things really parts of your book The blew my mind because really I've been trying to figure out what is this guy watching some for himself on the news and people kind of talking to him through the what does he ever you know what movie ever meant anything to him so you revealed 2 things one of them was that he he thought about going to film school hard to know how seriously but not so he could become some sort of her but I mean his idols weren't Orson Welles or Stanley Kubrick right they were moved around bogles the bright business of it though the guys who ran the studios Yeah yeah Louis mayor and those types you know I think you probably couldn't imagine himself as as the the creative even at that point and it you know it's funny you hear him. Errol Morris the documentarian did an interview with him several years back where he asked him about the movie Citizen Kane and hit his Donald Trump's conclusion that he true from it was well clearly. Charles Foster Kane just needed a good one and so they made him maybe that was the best choice he did not necessarily have he had to have the ends take 7 Orson Welles' and. Another I don't know if you were. Building building up to this but another early story of one of his pop cultural fascinations was the reason that he was sent off to military school by his father as a young man was that he he discovered a collection of young downs from switch blades which he had because he and his friends were fascinated with West Side Story and again you know there's the fascination you know. What's the thing that graft and you know it is as a young boy about West Side Story wasn't you know Marie Smith a girl named Maria it was it was it was the fights you know and that that that that theater of fighting so I think that was an interesting bit and so one of the other things you said I think it's from a Michael singer profile in The New Yorker is trying but his plane and he's trying to watch something else or whatever it is always my goal which is this kind of Nora Ephron the John Travolta comedy about an angel and it's just too much talking of what he sees which is the blood sport but even that has too much plot backstory a narrative right we just want to fights and yet he has Eric Trump young Eric Trump in the plane with them and he has Eric fast forward through it so he manages to watch it in about 20 or 40 minutes by only showing the fight scenes. So you know that was you know much much later in the campaign if you're going to get it that's bad but there was there was this joke that somebody made on Twitter at just after he became president that his his aides had created a fake your own but on and on the cable t.v. In the White House because Donald Trump you know only wanted to watch t.v. Shows of gorillas fighting. And it was it was fake it was it was it was a joke on Twitter that somebody believed that the person who made the joke had to know but you know in fact. Eric trumps yet Eric drum create him sort of a rudimentary form of the crowd that she is playing watching that young Claude Van Dam. Movie So you know there's there is a they kernel of truth in that right and it took about existing Kane I mean the other thing is this is again you know really it kind of gets back to a question about primal psychic wound and so it's no wonder that Trump doesn't want to understand the movie you know because he would not want to think about whatever primal psychic wound for a drummer who. Appreciate your lay in an entrepreneur I mean if you know if you read you know biographies or interviews with him he seems almost determinately to avoid that sort of self reflection you know and introspection to the point where and I mean I'm not saying that this is not true but he has said several times that he has never cried Fred you know and that that that may well be true which you know certainly says one thing about a person also there's another thing if somebody just does not want to confront the notion of even that small amount of very common vulnerability right so I'm going to offer you one of my theories with things here and I want somebody downstream about this at some point I'd be willing to bet my car which is not a very good car but I'd be willing to bet my car that in some point Donald Trump owned a copy of the Don Rickles record Hello dummy and one of the reasons I think that obviously is a lot of Trump's humor has a lot of the belittling transgressive you know ethnic race based stuff that Rickles did but for me because I'm kind of a comedy nerd he also uses a Rickles beat and and I'm going to show you in the audience this right here so we're going to hear Rickles and then we're going to hear Trump just listen to it for the beat. Should I make fun of my own people when it shows a paper that's right and what is it me or you only being chill Gentile Irish Negro Porter make a Puerto Rican extra. If she gets to pick her judges. Nothing you could do for us. Although the 2nd Amendment people may be there is out but. It's nothing you can do folks not a 2nd to the 2nd Amendment people maybe there is us he's got a Rickles beat that's in there he's doing that kind and you know one of the things you write about in the book James Poniewozik is the way that Trump often exists in this kind of quantum state it was not a joke was he serious should we make fun of him is he making fun of us that's an example of a line that kind of works as a joke but also could be serious yet cute 2 very good points number one he totally even even more than the content does have that cadence of an insult comic you hear that over and over in the rallies you know there are these people out there said I couldn't win you know these experts they're all in that he has I won't name their names and embarrass them give us some names you know how do you do you know you know over and over and over and he sought also I think that was one thing that worked actually well for him on The Apprentice you know he had this sort of you know kind of punchy style of delivery that you know worked very well in that format and he absolutely you know and I think this is key it's a key to his showbiz Performa persona over the years that ended up being very useful to him key to his his political campaign he's thrived in these environments where he's simultaneously serious and kidding and you know it's one reason for instance that he was such a valuable and popular talk show guest you know Letterman had him on some 3030 odd times I hear he was great for format like that where he's sort of simultaneously a figure of fun and yet also his you know it his his his his reputation his stature is being inflated just by his presence and about you know by Letterman teasing him about his wealth and he'll constantly be saying things that you know sort of are provocative and kind of cross the line and say in. No I'm just kidding when I say that folks right and you know he and he adapted that very much to his campaign I was being satirical when I said Russia should get Hillary's emails you know can't can't you folks take a joke right so we're going to circle back to the Letterman thing in the next segment but I want to just bring up one more thing that you know Don and in a nice way once again I've been looking at this guy and trying to figure out like who who mattered to him but one of the things that I concluded is he probably doesn't have a favorite Beatle because each wives indisposition wives he probably was a little bit more enticed by Elvis but only know that it isn't talk about elbows they just sort of an instinct I have you do figure out the Hugh Hefner means something to him right this is maybe one of the people that he looked at and thought I could kind of be that guy yeah I mean you know friends of his from his years in military school would talk about how Playboy was you know a big fan just Playboy in the playboy lifestyle like I'm sure that Playboy appealed to him in the way that you know Playboy appealed to a lot of teen boys at the time but also Hafner in particular as a model of the lifestyle Hefner you know in a way was very much a proto Trump in that he was not just you know a businessman he was not just a business icon who launched this big American brand but he was the mascot of the brand he was sort of you know his chief customer is by embodying its principle and its lifestyle you know in himself he sort of became the face of it and kind of the display model for the you know for the for the playboy lifestyle in much the same way that you know Trump would sort of be that kind of public face of the Trump organization through his his media omnipresence and you know there is this recurring thing both in you know that the tabloid trope of the eighty's and so on and the you know Trump on the campaign trail of modeling this kind of rap pack masculinity you know. To your question about. You know. Trump's musical taste whatever he has it is funny you know initial question in and of itself it's hard for me to imagine him having f a favorite b. At all because you know his sensibility seems to be so much more you know Sinatra it's like that and sixty's you know rather than the countercultural sixty's right so we're going to do the new Because audience of one Donald Trump television and the fracturing of America when take a quick break here we're going to come back we're going to talk about the shift in the television landscape and the way in which Trump as a famous person began to March in a certain kind of lockstep with that. Here 5. Extra . Help. Connecticut Public Radio's morning newsletter catches you up on the day's most important news Sign up today public dot org slash newsletter support comes from Mystic Seaport Museum hosting an exhibition of British painter j.m. W. Turner's watercolors the largest collection ever displayed in the u.s. In partnership with tape London now open info at Mystic Seaport dot org On the next day. She stars in the new h.b.o. Series. Based on the bestseller by Tom Parada about a divorced woman who has a confusing sexual reawakening after her son leaves home for college on is known for her roles in transparent Parks and Recreation bad and private life join us. With the h.b.o. Show. It deals with race. Just like. Much of that is black in America I can't help but be attracted to Regina King. On. The n.p.r. . Morning. You're listening to our broadcast of a previously recorded program. Thank. You for listening down the hall with a. Thank. You from here at the art of the deal anyone in new bestseller The art of the comeback to books Wow. That must have been tough coming up with that much experience I know I can hard getting started 1st day 9 chapters I said his client had a rich uncle but Donald Trump I like keeping a low profile because. They are strong and you do it well Smith they say you are getting great house here and this is quite a deal you can afford to let me tell you what going another 50 grand a kind of grass where you every Saturday I think you are ruining my life surely. You everybody's always blaming me for everything. All right there's a montage of Trump cameos in Home Alone to Spin City in the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air only to point out that in the Spin City came you know you hear the voice of Alan Rock who is also known for Ferris Bueller's Day Off and now in succession to movies that you would probably want to cite at some point if you are trying to assemble some kind of Rosetta Stone for understanding the the rise of Trump through popular culture and the person who does things like that is our guest James Poniewozik author of audience of one Donald Trump television and the fracturing of America so . Let's begin with. What television was in 1980 that's where we began the show to without running bear a clip so there is a way in which television in 1900 was maybe kind of in the last stages of being this kind of in a dying thing that you describe as the search for the least objectionable program flesh that idea out for us. Oh I think we might have lost James Potter was it. We we are we are reestablishing contact with James Bond or was it so I'll tell you what while we're doing that I was going to subject James Poniewozik to my theories but I'll just cover up the little time here right now by saying that one of the things that I want to explore is the way in which the reality television rose up at a very specific time one of the things that I believe is that popular culture in a way that's not entirely self-conscious not entirely conscious response to things that are happening in the world so I'm going to give you an example one of the things that James writes about and we are working hard to reestablish contact with James but one of the one of the things that he writes about one of the people that he singles out is Richard Hatch you might heard this in the promos for the show to . Richard Hatch who was the guy who won the 1st season of Survivor and if you remember him he was this kind of doughy guy who was not particularly likable you know sociopath probably too strong a word but he was a sort of a manipulative conniving guy he wasn't as popular with the audience or even with the crew there on that simulated Island. As other characters so people weren't really rooting for Richard Hatch to win and then he did win and it was sort of titillating to people right it was kind of if you remember back to that time it kind of was thrilling to think that somebody so unworthy could beat people like there was a guy there who was like a veteran you know was kind of a you know much more resourceful and conventionally heroic guy that this other guy could beat Doc I but I also think in that begins the rise of reality television. I also think that one of the things that you were seeing there the beginning of reality television so this happens in 2000 and think what happened in the 1901 of the things that happened in 1990 says it was the beginning of our sense that the workplace and other public spaces of life needed a little bit more policing than it had been getting and very specifically for example the kind of into sexual harassment training that you typically get in most companies today it really started in the ninety's started in particular as a result of certain court decisions there was one that came out of Tennessee with a forklift company there. Where the financial penalty for tolerating an environment where men were allowed a loud to go around being jerks and making people miserable. Was that the penalty should be high and so this company had to pay this huge judgment and so companies started to panic they started to worry they thought we obviously as we now know not all companies this reaction but but if the ninety's was the beginning of this idea that wow maybe we just can't let people run around the workplace being for want of a better term a holes and so that beginning to be scrubbed out a little bit was the 1st incursion the 1st sense that maybe this. This kind of Don Draper you know Mad Men version of the American workplace was not going to survive and one of the things that I believe what my cultural theory is is that any time we celebrate something we're often taking note of its impending demise so. So for example. When we were watching a lot of t.v. Shows like Northern Exposure Twin Peaks picket fences they were all going to out of the same time that was a really big the exact moment where the. Kind of idiosyncratic small town that was celebrated in these series was beginning to die out that there's kind of genetic code of c.b.s. And Boston Market and you know that was beginning to take over every small town was starting to look like another small town so. One of the things that I concluded was that Richard Hatch and then all of the loutish behavior this notion of reality television as a place where you'd see a lot of guys walking around without their shirts off and being jerks being for want of a better word a holes was a way of sort of transferring a culture that was in the process of being extirpated and was in the process of being expunged. In real life and so it was going to be preserved and celebrated someplace else and that someplace else was reality television and so then kind of it you know in the middle of that pipeline you also get Trump as a reality t.v. Star and as we know he is kind of that guy he's not that different as James Poniewozik points out for Richard Hatch And speaking of James Poniewozik we have him back so I've been vamping here while we lost you. And I've been having a lot of pro I'm sure you did a great I'm having a lot of fun doing it so I want to go back to where we I started it was I thought I was throwing it to you one of the things that you talk about is you know the kind of cost but that trump occupies as he starts going down the the television slide in 1900 it's sort of there's been this kind of in a dying television culture that you describe as the search for the least objectionable program rushed out for us a little bit so so the least objectionable program was a t.v. Programming term and you know in the 20th century that describe the kind of programming you put on back in the 3 network era when everything had to draw an audience of tens of millions and basically the idea was that you wanted to not give people a reason to change the channel you know it's just it's a much different programming strategy from what you have in a cable era and what that meant was that things were sort of broadly tell a little less edgy a. The good guys won there is one of something for everybody you know that kind of big tent Ed Sullivan philosophy of television and that really dominated television's early decades what would ultimately change that is the introduction right around the time that you know down trumps talking to run a parrot and then becoming a personality and it is the introduction of cable which slices and dices the audience and creates it changes the business model it creates a model where you need to give people active reasons to tune in and not avoid giving them reasons to tune out right and so I think another thing that's happening that happens kind of at the end of that decade is because cable is coming along there are also just because it's been going to long and there are other voices and from the fray there are these people who begin to occupy our attention by saying what if this is all just crap you know one of them I think is Garry Shandling doing the Larry Sanders Show where it's kind of this peek behind the scenes of just incompetent self serving self dealing you know messes of fragile egos and then the other what a real life is David Letterman who one of his fundamental questions in the ninety's was what if this is all just crap what it would have none of it's very good and so as you said in the 1st segment one of the people that he finds as a target for this kind of exploration is Donald Trump here we go. To get a fight what explain to me you know what you were thinking about the Mike Tyson situation shortly after the verdict was announced that he was was had been convicted he was guilty of the crime you had a play and now look what were you thinking on this and thinking yes thinking that as soon as he gets out he's going to fight in my casinos Yeah but you can't buy your way of course I'm only kidding when I say that thanks. Because I could say that. Right so Letterman was interviewed during the Trump presidency by New York magazine he said about. He was a joke of a wealthy guy we didn't take him seriously he'd sit down and I would just start making fun of him he never had any retorts he was big and doughy and you could beat him up he seemed to have a good time and the audience loved it and that was Donald Trump which is I think James Bond was it very much the conclusion you arrive at 2 Yeah I mean one reason that he's great for shows like that is that you know you don't necessarily want to but I can actual business tight now on the show you know that success a national business can be boring but he was great television in that sense and he was sort of this you know this this this kind of figure of fun that people you know he came on and people knew just what they were getting and and and that sort of you know that performance that sort of you know quasi ridiculous you know New York braggy buff and character that trump developed in the eighty's and into the ninety's that's that's really a natural fit for this kind of you know winking way parotid age of irony t.v. That's developing on television at the time you know what you're right you know that was so much in the spirit of television than you know of The Simpsons when it came out was you know half a show about pushing back against the phony ness and ridiculous ness of television and Letterman was certainly conducive environment for that for Trump right so. So many things that I want to talk about here but but. The other thing that I was reminded of in all of this is friendly but with his line Trump is a poor person's idea of a rich person. And I think that's sort of like one of the things you're seeing in these Letterman appearances too but the other thing you're seeing a you can use that is sort of a bragging but food not necessarily an enticement person but we're also entering entering this era I mean it's not a new idea if you take say not a paradise lost you have a really long boring poem but. We're entering this era where we're going to gravitate towards people who are not necessarily admirable. But they are going to occupy our attentions in a way that they maybe previously have and so while you were gone I did a long disquisition on Richard Hatch so you don't have to be Richard. But you know you know our popular culture and our fictional culture we're starting is starting to see the Tony Soprano's come in the people with whom we may empathize even though they're horrific. Yeah you know there was you know there and there had been an element of this in popular culture you know the notion of like j.r. Ewing the you know the villain that you love to hate but it's certainly flourishes much more as you have a more fragmented t.v. Environment and you know h.b.o. Can create a show like The Sopranos which you kind of put on n.b.c. a $967.00 because you know it's selling subscriptions to people who want to watch something that they can't see somewhere else and all these shows are kind of presenting a a sophisticated idea of morality beyond guys in white hats and guys in black hats you know they're showing you people who may be terrible but they're very charismatic they're fascinating you know you want to know what makes them tick you can't stop watching them and there are a lot of you know other factors in the culture that play into this and that cause these antihero figures to be popping up all over the place you know 911 happens and suddenly you have. A figure in the culture like Jack Bauer from 24 who sort of you know rises on the notion of this is an ugly world and you know he may be this this rough edge guy who tortures people to get information but like this is these are the only times that we live in and sometimes it takes oddly deeds to get the job done right and I think another thing that happens and you have bars a great example of that because somebody like me you know left of center peacenik I'll be watching the show and going there's a battery right in the room jar Coke is nipples up to the battery and what is Why are you what are you waiting for and I think another example of this used to. For salon I freelance for Salon a little bit later so I wrote a piece for Salon the morning after the last episode of Breaking Bad and I just the theme of it was kind of that Walter had become a monster of course he had to die a story spoiler but of course Walter had to die he had turned into a monster and you know you know Mr Bonner wasn't what those along common threads were often like and I got all these comments from guys they're all guys I'm sure saying oh no it was a monster he was a hero he was sticking it to the man he had seized control of his own destiny you know that you know how can you say he's a monster he wasn't a villain he was a hero and I'm thinking whoa I don't think Vince Gilligan things that but it's a little bit alarming that you do yeah he was he was he was taking care of his family right here is that he was like he was looking out for his own and you know it's sort of understandable in a way because you know kind of the way drama functions you know how do you keep people invested in a show like that well for one thing you know you've sat Walter White and all these these you know it true you put it in all these fixes where he comes out with ingenious solutions and it's tremendously entertaining and tremendously well told you want the story to keep going on so that you know sort of naturally psychologically puts you in a position of kind of rooting for him even if you do think he's a monster and he's often opposed with people who are even more vicious than him but you know that's as t.v. Becomes sort of more artistic in a lot of these ambitious cable shows it's doing something bad you know a lot of great art does which is it is asking you to draw the moral conclusions without holding your hand in marching through it and you know Breaking Bad I think is a very highly morally conceived show I mean it's got bad in the title. You know it is telling you this is the story of a man's journey toward evil but you know it doesn't force you to reach that conclusion to try and you know is it an overtly tapped into a lot of ugly stuff among Gray was like largely guys who watched it who saw this was the. It was a man you know just just being a man and to him what he had to do and you know in the words of Gustavo Fring Carlo Esposito character from breaking bad a man provides you know and that's what that's that's what to them you know Walter White was about it was like putting down suppressing that can that the prissy norms of society and embracing your manhood right I mean you know there was a famous trolls out of this cartoon years ago. To shoot a movie theater audience and everybody in the movie theater audience was crying except for this one group you know Charles Addams type guy he was laughing. And joking or. Joke or joking and I think that but also I think you know one of the things that Breaking Bad Illustrated was now it's like the it's $5050.00 you know half the audience is crying and half the audience is laughing half of the audience is deploring half the audience is cheering we no longer have the seam vision the same sort of reactions to the. Equal fact patterns Yeah and you know this is a these aren't phenomenon that are solely being created by media and entertainment obviously you know I think there are a lot of the reasons that you're getting these comments section doods you know the same with you know that the man is fair on time online and you know in cell culture and so on is this you know these it's this manifestation of pushing back against larger changes in the society where you know women are more empowered where more people have have to have a voice and there is this you know sort of retrograde action against it that this this kind of reaction is it's search channeling it's tapping into that even if inadvertently All right we're going to take a quick break don't go anywhere this you know the goes down the audience as Larry Sanders would say no flipping We'll be back with James Poniewozik after this. But Donald Trump. 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Support comes from Yale choral artists performing beloved choral works by Yohannes Brahms featuring pianists Robert Walker and Melvin Chen Sprague Khalid Yale University Saturday October 26th at 7 30 pm You're listening to our broadcast of a previously recorded program. And that's the news good night Dave good night check good night Mika good night Joe Good night Anderson good night Rachel Good night good night Shepherd. Good night Wolf good night bowl good night mush. Today show was produced by Jonathan mc pants and me. Part of Bill Curry was played by Richard Hatch on tomorrow's show the nose reads the new Stephen King novel Now back to college I'm not a big believer in what we're doing tonight Ok I'm really not. Because you really should have had her be the presenter she's a much better presenter than him or anybody else in the team Yes sir Mr Trump with her signing off and having a negative attitude and not having any enthusiasm for the bad attitude she's a better presenter than anybody else on your team. That's my opinion I say you picked the wrong clinic and you picked the wrong presenter and then George and Carolyn are saying Oh I think and she's wonderful Ok she's great. And I'm going to listen to them you have to know I really don't but I'm going to. Be You're a wise guy you know that's a total statement I was just asking if you know this is a dumb statement you know it's not what you are a wise guy there's no question about it. You know whatever and you're fired. So if people had no idea who Donald Trump was before the apprentice then he was fully imprinted on the Americans are here is the car who writes about it James Bond was that author of audience of one Donald Trump television in the fracturing of America also chief television critic for The New York Times so so much going on there with Apprentice but but this is the place right there Donald Trump the television character really comes into full flower in a way that's somewhat predictive of his success in the political theater Yeah exactly you know you started this off with him talking to Rona Barrett in 1980 and saying you know in the television era you know television rewards that nice guy with the big smile this is not that guy right now we're in an era. We're down from can be the antihero on on t.v. And be a hit for it and be the guy who tells people that they stand for that they failed and that you know they're just not good enough and they're fired and people people eat it up you know that is. That is a big change from the mass media era that he launched in just a couple decades before that right I think another thing that changes just about to the least offensive program concept is you know that era of television was kind of about teams and functioning teams so you know I mean if you got rid of somebody from Gilligan's Island every week you know the series would be over pretty fast the whole idea was how are these people going to get along on Gilligan's Island you know except for juggles the clown nobody dies on The Mary Tyler Moore Show because you want all those people there every week you want to come back to them they're a surrogate family they're a functioning team Star Trek was about you know people who are trapped in this kind of office that's going through space they have to get along they have to figure out how to collaborate and then reality television comes alarm and reality television a lot of these shows Survivor Apprentice The Bachelor They're about getting rid of somebody every week which I think is sort of a good to see that Americans do what if I could get rid of somebody I don't like every week and Trump becomes the king of that and it's about you know it's about 0 sum game you know right like you know yeah Gunsmoke was you know a functioning community and everybody's got a poll together to beat the bad guys but but here it's somebody success must come at your expense and for you to succeed somebody else must fail and somebody is out to take your stuff to take your prize away from you and you have got to work against them and get them booted off to you know get your get your place at the in this case literally have a table in the boardroom and you know that is just that's where John Trump lives like that's where that persona you know is starting from the you know sort of pinstriped eighty's Reagan era shark back then you know that has sort of been the core of. Am and now this is primetime t.v. Material right I think the other thing you hear in that clip I hadn't really thought about it before but you know Trump is also the umpire he's the umpire on that show he decides who's in and who's out and that happened on kind of a parallel track with t.v. News is erosion of its role as the umpire Cronkite used to sign off his newscast with and that's the way it is and that was pretty much the way that it was you know Cronkite Brinkley those kinds of people could could tell you sort of what was going on in reality could make a sort of Solomonic judgment about something like the Vietnam War you know now of Cronkite had to sign off you'd probably have to say and that's one possible interpretation of reality. But so we're just we're desperate for an umpire and news isn't really doing it anymore although you see Trump doing it over there yeah and one thing that The Apprentice is doing for him is that it's bringing the powers of television to sort of edit him into a decisive later the guy who calls the shots and he makes the decisions and maybe sometimes they're tougher mean decisions but they're the right decisions right now sometimes they weren't always the right decisions as pretty as producers on the president said he would sometimes make sort of arbitrary decisions in the boardroom because somebody had annoyed him he didn't like the way they looked that day or whatever and they would look at each other and say well we've got to make sense of this there was nothing in the challenge that led to this so they would retroactively edit it but the calm cumulative effect is that the product that you get on t.v. Is decisive straight shooting well admired and authoritative Donald Trump right and I think you know by 2016 the umpires of news have so completely handed the keys over to some crazy drunk guy in the stands. In Joe aren't even in control of when Trump comes on Morning Joe he could just call up and he books himself they're not even booking him as a guest for their own show he's now in control of that it's the guests that are driving the train and it's the the audience you know and what the audience wants to be you know provoked or entertained by that's. It's driving the train and it's going on us you're saying it's the The Apprentice is going on it's kind of this time of this broader crisis in American expertise and authority you know and Ron you know the the w m D's that didn't turn up you know all this notion of you can't trust the traditional call shock collars to call the shots so you I mean you had I'm sure you you enjoy these like in the post-mortem they do at Harvard after the election you know you had Jeff Zucker of c.n.n. Being booed by the audience and one of one of Rubio's advisors yells You showed him to you podiums you showed hours upon hours of unfiltered unscripted coverage of trump this was not about interviews and he's right right that ultimately c.n.n. Knuckled under to and said look you're just such great television you're so good for the bottom line you know Moonves admitted that and c.b.s. Too will just do whatever you want to do yeah Moonves this may be bad for America but it's great for c.b.s. And you know Jeff Zucker I mean he was it was the executive at n.b.c. That put the it put the apprentice on Jeff Zucker you know it's sort of understood instinctively that you know if your audience is telling you you they want something you give them 10 times as much of it which was one thing that sort of burned out the apprentice ratings over time frankly because the they sent which they scheduled it and kind of you know burned out that franchise but yeah you know what what the audience was saying that in the 2016 election whether they loved Trump or whether they hated Trump was that they would tune in for this insane scenario where Donald Frick and Trump you know the guy from the eighty's was running for president and he could say anything and he was news even if he wasn't doing anything even if he wasn't there it was just a podium because who knows what's going to happen next and who knows what's going to happen next is basically the business model of cable news Ok good 60 seconds left do you have anything positive hopeful message for those of us who would like the restoration of sanity in our culture sure you know I think that people are capable of getting burned out on a television phenomenon you know. As we were just saying and deciding that you know they want to take some responsibility and and you know turn to something more more more sensible and you know I would also say you know maybe we've moved in the area of reality t.v. Politics the reality t.v. Is not the only kind of t.v. That works on television but then there are more sort of you know it left a. And you know positive messages that can come through and grab an audience so you know it's not this is not necessarily our world forever and ever Yeah you know Game of Thrones seemed like a really big deal yeah. I was obsessed with Game of Thrones Yeah you know I can't believe I watch Game of Thrones so maybe that is the way that we have a little bit of hope for the future of James Bond or was it from the New York Times is the author of audience of one Donald Trump television in the fracturing of America it's great talking to you sir yeah thanks so much for the great talk all right we'll be back tomorrow with a nose you know we all watch we all read excuse me we read we read we know how to read we read the new Stephen King novel. On the next morning edition. Of claimed many victims. And. Our scientists at the c.d.c. Are responding next students to challenge. Which. Here news stories that affect your world that's tomorrow on Morning Edition from n.p.r. News. 9. Cancer Hospital at Yale New Haven the killing of an unarmed black man. Today. The case. And. Point their. Age at $89.00. 88.5. 91.3. 0. Comes from City Market in New Haven. 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