Issued a statement as well in which he credited Cummings who was chairman of the House Oversight Committee was being a good example of protecting the checks and balances within our democracy instead fast in his pursuit of truth and justice Cummings was among Trump's most vocal critics and one of the top Democrats leading the impeachment inquiry into the president trap is accused of pressing Ukraine to investigate political rival Joe Biden while holding up military aid to Ukraine a u.s. Delegation led by Vice President Mike Pence met with Turkish officials today the u.s. 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The next incident and we see it in our politics we see it in our media and it seems to be stronger and more prevalent than I remember it being so it's one of the reasons I thought this would be I think something we really need to talk about we're going to great panel for you I want to maybe begin by just introducing them. There on the rim is the Richard Wilson professor Richard Wilson from the law school next to him is. A Christian ethics a school. Work in political action say that Richard Wilson and then the person sitting next to Jennifer. Have done a lot of work on. Incitement and radicalization of speech. He's also. And then sitting close to me Steve Ginsberg regional director for the defamation league on the front lines of the stuff that will talk about tonight but I think the 1st thing we need to talk about is what it is we're talking about what does this term mean I mean he does a really imprecise term and so I think I'm going to go to go around the rim here and yeah there's hate there's nativism there's nationalism there's political extremism there are a lot of other isms that fall into this and yeah there is incitement So maybe just starting out there over there with you Richard I mean what is it that you think we're talking about what falls under this rubric I can tell you one thing when a group of people who don't believe that they're engaging in hate speech are hate groups then. By that way so we can start with them. Where do you start I would start with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Its website and you can see the definition of a hate crime which is an attack on property or a person on the basis of and I'm probably going to forget. Ethnicity race national origin or sexual orientation disability religion. So there are federally. They include. Property or person on the basis that also we have. Facebook and Twitter which define hate speech. Of course but it does give some of. Those new companies which do moderate a lot of content consider hate speech. And I was struck in your invitation to see you connected with the denial of human equality and I think the people who engage in hate speech would probably affirm human equality it's much easier to affirm human equality in general and then to get down to well but although human beings are equal this group has lost its right to be treated the same way as this group because of some feature that they have so quickly. Universally quality becomes undermined justifications for treating this group differently because of some moral failing on their part or some you know their dirty their lazy their whatever it is. That this is just. People and that the people. As you say needed to be true need to be treated differently usually without minimum scorn and sometimes something more. Than seems to me that's in there somewhere. Yeah I think you that I think in addition to concern about other ing about affirmations of of inequality and explicit threats one of the things that I've been really concerned about is actually the kind of corrosive effect that speech is having on institutions on our democracy and on our society on our trust in other people so I'm wary not only about the specific manifestations of threats of hate speech and violence that's carried out pursuant to that but also that more systemic affects that being exposed to. Systemic harassment for example online you know so. When I when we think about hate and when we teach about hate We usually in almost all of our programs we talk about what we call the pyramid of hate and it really starts with words and bias and teasing and jokes that usually aren't funny and it goes up to discrimination acts of bias and then it keeps going and it gets more violent and I think what we're seeing right now is a sort of cross that pyramid other than the top where we're not we're not there yet where we've been a couple times this century in different places but here we are seeing hate in schools where it's almost an expression of hate that could be innocent or unknowing all the way to the more extreme violent kind of hate I want to deal with because. Everybody who is referred to as a group. And actually when you do when you type a group or the speech into a search engine you pretty much directed to various pages from the a.d.l. . Which is that's sort of where you go because obviously he group doesn't take you to deal you storm or. Groups want to recruit they find it hard to recruit if they put their message out pure and simple and so they need to hide their. Message a little which is why Richard Spencer who's a neo nazi created the term right which the media used for a number of years has stopped using that just would say for 5 months or so but they use this term and it was kind of a gateway drug term that could get people in who are maybe interested in curious and wanting to hear more without actually saying you know we're neo nazis and we like to say Heil Hitler and do stuff around it was an attempt to make them legitimate So Richard Spencer was made wearing nice suits and nice watches and and he was really has been the most successful white supremacist. In several decades and so I think we have to be careful to say it's not simply in the eye of the beholder I think if you're a white supremacist group you're a hate group there's no way of of dodging that and the other thing that I wanted to write at the beginning or talk about right at the beginning is I think everybody in this room feels as though there's been some kind of steady growth in the phenomenon that we're talking about but one of the questions I think a lot of people have is is there a steady growth or has a. Background kind of come out of the show or does it now feel more comfortable in the spotlight a little more in the words are these movements acquiring new adherence they just comfortable making themselves more visible I'm guessing the answer is going to turn out to be both. But it also in some ways might be not neither but not is not as bad as we think so it we think that's sort of the the amazing thing about the United States of America is how it has used put this country together from diversity and worked over the last 5060 years to maintain free speech but also have there be a social price that people paid when they attack someone based on what group they're part of I think in some. We're still there but we've what we've seen is in a row genre of that wall right the social price being paid is not what it used to be and there's been emboldening and enabling of lots of people with hateful views to share their I think that the question though is are there more of them I think there are new ones I also think that but I can't tell you that there are the numbers have necessarily grown these movements when you look at the people who identify clearly with white supremacist or other movements they go up and down they're not really good at organizing and staying together very well they have a lot of in-fighting so they might be losing as many as here it's not but the social media element and the people who have found their voice in that way there's a much louder chorus there and a much larger course going to go to you anyway. Talks about how people don't understand what Facebook is good out Facebook is good at helping people find each other very special kinds of interest can be really wonderful. If you suffer from a disease or a syndrome and you think nobody else has and you can find all these other people the problem is that you can find all these people to I think the Internet plays a big role in what we're talking about now for sure and actually that was exactly the example was going to go for which was one of the things that the Internet was heralded as bringing as the long tail of this idea that media didn't have to be focused on only the things that were popular and interesting to 60 percent of the people that there would be forums and places for people who wanted to get together with other people who like to knit hats for cats or something like that but also I mean you're. Finding other communities of people who struggle with similar medical issues I have a friend for whom Facebook has been a lifesaver because he's been able to connect with other people who have had similar experiences so it is true that it enables the long tail it enables there to be conversations that wouldn't otherwise occur but that means. Potentially it enables people who have very extreme views to find each other and reinforce each other's views now does that mean there are more people being exposed or that those that long tail is actually now just coming to light along with us and I think the answer is probably both I think it's an empirical question that we haven't answered one of the things that worries me though that I think is new is that when people find each other and they reinforce each other's views I do think it's possible that they may be more likely to act on it or more likely to I mean we've seen an increase in hate crimes in this country and so I don't know if there are necessarily more extreme views out there but I do think that there's a visibility of those views that creates a kind of tolerance for attacks for violence for hate speech that I think we didn't have before one way that you could have answered my question I mean your. Phone rings. I'm assuming over the last 34 years your phones ringing. Yes there's no question that if you're measuring reports of incidents of hate those numbers are much higher than they were a few years ago I think they've they've studied off 2017 and 18 looked similar but they're much larger than 16. Historical levels we've been tracking these things for 50 years and we're at those levels in this conversation we will have to talk about what I constantly refer to as the big. In the room not going to do it. Because Richard I think it's wrong to do and one of your specialties is going to looking. Here in the United States we know that one of the tipping points towards more. Extremism came somewhere around 2000 when the census made it clear. For the 1st time. America was going to be. Jordi minority country I think it's 2047 and so that began a period of anxiety the election Obama began another period of anxiety among identity extremists we can look at these sort of American currents and think of them as very much our own problem and one that's contained on our shores except they're not there's this I mean you will you take it away we're in a global wave of populism it's not just the United States and any idea that America was truly an exception to all of our patterns of politics and economics worldwide I think that argument's been severely undermined so we have Putin in Russia we have to territory in the Philippines who brags about personally killing drug dealers in Turkey Brazil who once said to a woman in Congress I would rape you if you weren't so ugly so these kinds of politicians most of them were very marginal in the past they've come right into the mainstream quite similar to Trump and you see this across Europe you see it in the number of far right parties Nigel for Britain you know these individuals who are very much on the margins of politics and they've come roaring into the center and some countries have dominated their politics and their languages is race is. It's very graphic and it's attacks on minority groups and there are complex and you indicated some of the causal factors there are a complex number of factors but I think ultimately it goes back to the 2008 crash that's really when you start to see this rising tide of populism so at risk of sounding like an economic determinist I think it is the economic stupid also coinciding with a number of other factors the environmental crisis which is driving migrants across the world from Africa to Europe and from Latin America into the United States there are a number of kind of complex factors there the Syrian war which drove about 10000000 . Refugees in total into Jordan Turkey and into into Europe so it's complex but we do see this phenomena being global Jennifer I'm going to have you lead us in the circle exercise. Which I would group under the question Is it Ok to punch Richard Spencer in the nose this isn't a purely hypothetical question because somebody did punch Richard Spencer in the nose on camera everybody could see there was no matter how we want to think we are certain grim satisfaction that one might experience one might even watch the clip more than once. But that doesn't make it to use an imprecise term right so I don't know get it started. Ok no it's not it's not Ok to punch Richard Spencer in the know what is it Ok seriously why isn't it Ok. He wants to hurt people he wants to hold people down he invented the term all right to confuse us about what he really wants to do so why isn't it Ok to punch him in the nose because you don't have the authorization to use force against him so there are it's assault. Since it would be. For it would constitute assault and so on so I mean you know as far as back up his Might there be a point. Of our society which some sort of use of force might be just that becomes a much bigger and more complex question really in trouble about out Yeah exactly exactly and you know but but there's also the question of what Isn't it what is an effective response to hate and unfortunately punching Richard Spencer and I know this is really a very ineffective response you've become enraged and you've responded in a rage and that will ignite more hatred and hatred is not a very good cure for hatred that's why you know I mean I do think this phenomenon of worldwide populism. Very real it's complex we need to part of what we need to do is have some some empathy with the people who are being drawn into these populist movements and try to understand what are the fear is that are that are driving us to try to reach humanize the people that are being co-opted by this message of hate rather than being drawn into hating them because that is really not a solution you know. Which I thought I mean if we're not going to Richard there are other options and I thought I don't know whether you invented the term or explain why. The idea of speech to the. Tradition of paring duties with rights so in the human rights tradition the emphasis has been and right naturally but also that these rights come with corresponding duties and it's not that your enjoyment of rights depends on you fulfilling certain duties because there may be people who can't or are unable to do that but the idea of the piece that you mention is to try to revive this concept of G.-D's and say that when we act as speakers in the world we should not simply be worried about whether we have the right to speak or not which is my big critique of 1st Amendment jurisprudence in the u.s. Which is very focused on simply does the speaker have the right to speak or not I think speech today is would be a way of reorienting us on the idea of what impact does our speech have on others and when we have that orientation we I think naturally begin to be drawn into responsibility or we become more responsible or accountable for the effects of our speech. Thinking about all this I mean. What I think about the responses that are there are pretty extreme examples. Mystics extreme examples of sort of heroic efforts by people I've seen that have actually changed someone's mind I work a lot with former. And there are certain groups that their whole purpose is to you know extract people from extremist groups and when ever I hear those stories from people who are in extremist groups each one of them says it's because a person or multiple people who didn't know them any kindness treated them with respect and gave him kindness whether was on line and there are many examples of those or in person or someone gave him a job so and actually to bring it home to Connecticut a few years ago there was a mosque in merited Kerrick that a person who lived nearby actually shot into the through the window of the mosque and didn't injure anyone but was apprehended and was very Islama for work and he went to prison and the people who ran the mosque visited him every week in prison he is now a completely repentant amazing ally an advocate for you know all different things against hate and with that group those are extreme examples but they are the ones that sort of make me remember that forgiveness is going to be a part of this and I don't want to be confused with normalization we can accept it but when things happen we need to be ready to address them confront them and if people are repentant we need to work with them to figure out how they make it up to us this is a great peril I mean these people are to revert to a. Leisurely break here right now we'll be back in just the sort of you. Are listening to the car and McEnroe show on w n.p.r. Connecticut Public Radio and loosen up a fan show here with Jeff Cohen a really interesting conversation that Collin and his team recorded at the walk in since school in Hartford about the normalisation of hate a lot of discussion and themes that you may be talking about at the dinner table and this is a really interesting perspective again that Khan is bringing to you on the show college and his team bring a lot of into. In conversations to you each and every day and we're here to remind you that the listeners support that makes that possible so if you have yet to pick up the phone or go to our website at w npr dot org now's the time to support it during our fall fundraising campaign the number to call 1805842781805842788 is the number on the website is w npr dot org Gee. 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I wanted to mention a group that started in Germany and Sweden called. And they're now called I Am Here they're about 140000 of them and they're a group that goes on Twitter and Facebook and challenges people who use hate speech who use incendiary language and they challenge them very delicately They simply say do you have to use that kind of language are you saying this are not aggressive they're not they don't tell them they're idiots they simply challenge them and they find that so they argue according to their research that 70 percent of the posts are then taken down so there is a lot to be said for simply politely challenging people who use hate speech online and it does seem to work quite effectively and that is a growing movement especially among young people however it's not enough. Social media companies need to more aggressively police the speech on the platform they can do so they are not bound by 1st Amendment they are private clubs there's another final point which is what these companies do is run ads. They have now have 60 percent of the world's advertising revenue on social media on Facebook and Twitter that's a lot of money and that's why Facebook made a profit of 55000000000 dollars last year now what they do is they have to get eyeballs on screens they want people to look more and in doing so they've actually highlighted incendiary speech they're elevating hate speech on your profile because you're more likely to look at it so that's a question for all of you should social media companies highlight hate speech should they treat it neutrally or should they bury it at the bottom of the feet and there are all kinds of freedom of speech consequences for each of those 3 strategies this is kind of an interesting area right this is the stuff you want to see this is why we're showing it to you because you want to see it because John Calvin was right you're totally to braved you know so here it is you want it we're going to give it to you that seems like a moral dodge to a certain degree on the other hand it also might contain a certain amount of moral truth in the sense of why is this stuff out here because there's something in a lot of us that is responding to this I mean I don't know I don't know if anybody gets off the hook here no I mean I think that's right I think that I was hearing. Example of the extreme responses and how effective they can be and thinking yes you know this is this is Jesus' message you know you eat with the tax collector you reach out to the outcast the sinner and so on and that you have that face to face transformation and you encounter hate with love and it's transformative and and yet of course that's only a very small part of the story about how religion is wrapped up in hate and tribalism and certainly it's been religious believers too. Often the ones who are perpetrating hate and so I think there is something about it original sin and human. That we. Not be overly rosy. Resources that come from faith but on the other hand I think our faith traditions do provide a powerful powerful resource in that they tell us that our loyalties are to something higher than our in-group and that we always have to look beyond the boundaries of the comfortable and cosey. That we have you know we're going to keep coming back to this but that is the big question you know how do we. The moral response we're hearing from the Internet companies is people like this stuff people want to see this stuff on the other hand we're living in a society where we're kind of. Overly restricting the expression. Good for you it's one of those things that I we talked a little bit about it I kind of go back and forth and what I wind up is right where this country where Brandeis said that the marketplace of ideas is what's going to drive us to the next level and we need to be exchanging those ideas and the best ones will rise to the top I am at a moment where that not what I'm seeing on social media but I don't think it's what most of us are seeing So I think there's an I don't know if it's the government that should be regulating what media companies algorithms do but I think there needs to be societal pressure on them to figure out how they're going to push us to our better instincts it doesn't have to necessarily be political but it can be not fueling one hate video after the next and when they get reports of videos or tweets sort of or I think that they're going to need to use some artificial intelligence to find those things actually are a.d.l. Is working with all those companies to enhance their algorithms in good ways we worked with them at 1st said. Those terms of service that are the ones that can get you kicked off but they all interpret them different ways and so we just need to be pressuring them I think that ultimately they do get to make their choice I will not be calling for them to be platforms but I will call for the ones that are purely about hate and we will be pressuring the companies that host and provide the service for them to question whether they want to work with them and we would be remiss if we didn't I mean 1st of all there are these you know the kind of mainstream black warms and they're trying to make rules a lot of the speech also digs place in other parts of the. Was I think for the Christ church shooter one of the places to put. In those places in some cases can be formed or stripped away from their servers but they just seem to run to another corner yeah I mean I think that it is an inevitable game of cat and mouse and actually I think law enforcement has also raised the concern that if platforms are shut down it may make it harder to do investigations you know I think I think Steve's we were talking about this earlier that on the one hand yes I think it takes away the visibility of some of those platforms that may drive people into you know darker corners of the Web On the other hand I think there's something to this idea that removing a platform for someone who has repeatedly violated the terms of service of a particular service who's repeatedly called for hate and called for violence I think that there's nothing that says I mean and I have to say I'm very worried about the free speech aspects of the things we're talking about but there's nothing that says that you have to be able to go I mean I think that the phrase the right to freedom of expression doesn't entail the right to sort of trample. Right the range of other public interest to have your message heard by as many people as possible on the other hand I will inject one level of concern here which is I am not necessarily entirely comfortable with private come. But he's making all of these decisions without any oversight or accountability you know I think companies are in various ways trying to address this problem Facebook has a new oversight board that some of you may have heard about I think that they are steps in the right direction but I think that you know governments want companies to do this there are actually a number of laws either already on the books or proposed that would make companies liable for unlawful speech on their platforms and it has a lot of potential to really chill speech if a platform is faced with you know 50000000 in fines versus let's just take this down they're just going to take it down if there's any questions I think yes I think that there is a need for action but I think that it needs to be very considered because the unintended consequences for speech are very significant I mean we can worry about free speech a little bit more here because I think it's worth doing I mean look Richard knit into the fabric of our society it's not just the 1st amendment there is a pro billing attitude that people should be able to say things and people should be able to say things that speech should not be unduly repressed so I don't know we're. We have to remind ourselves that encouraging the abolition of slavery was illegal in every southern state in 840 that a significant percentage of the American population things black lives matter the hate speech group and if you look at the history of 1st Amendment law in the 20th century legal regulation of incitement was mostly used against socialists the legal regulation of threat was mostly used against African-Americans so the state has used 1st Amendment law before in 1969 when things really started to change pretty story Asli and so we have to remind ourselves that at the same time we couldn't force the laws we have more consistently and more clearly we have laws on the book that you can. A true threat against another individual we have laws on the books that say you can't incite another person to commit a crime they're seldom charged or seldom followed through on and they could be enforced more aggressively and more consistently than they are then there's Germany so Germany in 2017 passed a law which said that if a social media company did not remove content that manifestly violated German law they would be fined 5000000 euros a day up to 50000000 euros people predicted the collapse of German democracy you know people predicted that this would have deleterious effects it hasn't the social media companies have complied democracy is thriving in Germany and they haven't forced their hate speech rules because they just accepted 1000000 Syrian refugees which is a remarkable social experiment that was their decision but they decided they couldn't leave those 1000000 Syrian refugees exposed to hatred and violence online so there's a spectrum of choice all right here we go live from Washington school with his great panel here we're going to be back in just a 2nd here but how about a big round of applause. 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During Morning Edition and All Things Considered support comes from every source and Connecticut cost of association I was teaching a few years ago to university and one of my students was from Singapore and he was one of my favorite students but Singapore had a state controlled press until the Internet broke it and he basically thought he didn't think we had too much freedom of speech but we do You thought the press had too much power to hurt people that you know the fact that you know the journalism has a very free hand that you know Absence of Malice and stuff like that it was a it wasn't a good enough standard for him and it was interesting to hear that from somebody who isn't imbued with our set of values and I just think it only allows me I mean it's been alluded to already but you know Jennifer one of the things that journalism is struggling with right now is how to cover hate and we hear it a lot I mean The New York Times says there are a couple of times in the last few years done pretty lengthy profiles of Richard Spencer type people you know here's who this guy is here's how he got to be who he is here's what else he does with his time and there are a lot of people who do see that as normalized saying I grew up or I came into my professional life with this idea of look we know something we're supposed to tell the public about it so those are 2 values that are kind of in conflict right there it's certainly seems as though these things need to be covered people need to be aware of them but you're not you don't need to provide a platform for these these people to get their view of reality out into the public you know want to amplify their message and so there's a delicate act to perform there in terms. How do you describe what they're doing to what extent do you use their own self descriptions actually there's a connection to the great orange elephant that you alluded to earlier one of the recent stories about Facebook and some of the other platforms has focused on how they treat politicians a lot of our president's speech violates the terms of service of Twitter and again it's not unlawful because it doesn't may not rise to the level of a crime actually I think Richard can talk more about that but it clearly you know would be in contradiction to the Twitter rules for example but the platforms have decided to create an exception for politicians in part based on newsworthiness with the idea that to take down tweets of a prominent politician would actually prevent the public from understanding more about the world that they live in and what their politicians are doing on the other hand we know from you know the research on inciting speech that the status of the speaker the authority that they wield in the eyes of the listener in the years of the listener are actually indicative of the impact that the speech is going to have and so I think it's it's a really I don't have a solution but it's a real life problem that I'm not sure that platform's know how to solve this Steve this is I think a direct issue for you because in some ways you what the press to cover incidents of hate. Swastikas and schools and. Normalizing problem I mean maybe you don't want me to do a profile. To try to figure out how we got to be who we. Are do you thread that needle Well the one common thing between a kid who does a swastika in a school and the member of an extremist group is they really do like to touch him in many of the craving any news is good news any attention they get is is exactly what they're looking for so it's been a challenge for us for decades working with communities and schools win there. Is a swastika printed principal cause us and said Should I tell everybody is the is the shining a light on it the disinfectant that will eliminate it or will it just create copycats and we've we've seen it go both in both directions in the past few weeks here in Connecticut dairy n there was a middle school that had swastika the teacher communicated with the school community it didn't get a lot of press attention but the community knew and they said and are doing all the right things teaching the kids informing the parents investigating it a week later there was another swastika. So the copycat issue is real. On the extremists it's sort of a different approach how many of you knew that there was a synagogue in Newtown a couple weeks ago that was covered in white supremacist group feed I pretty pretty good numbers the Newtown synagogue and the chief of police there decided that they weren't going to hide it but they were not going to provide photographic evidence of it to the community or to the media I think that Newtown did what was right for Newtown that is a town that has had a lot of experience with horrible things they did they wanted to deal with this for their community and so they did not give the media what they knew it wanted it was a very conscious choice and you know I just got to put a little bit more pressure on Jennifer to help me as a journalist because I mean it was the truth is journalists have belief systems we know we have a belief system and I believe system is we should go get the damn picture you know I mean if there's a picture of that synagogue with all that stuff on it if it can be got we should get it if we get it we should share it because that's what we do we're not in the business of knowing stuff not sharing it with the public and it can make us a little under nuanced and it can blind us to some of the questions that other people might want us to consider and I think what scares us is if we start thinking about those questions then we become gatekeepers and we're really assuming a kind of authority that we shouldn't have but I'm wondering how you hear that how it sounds to you whether there's maybe something more that we need to think about what was your response to the refusal to release the name of the New Zealand killing did you feel like that was the right decision I think ultimately that decision. My values as a human being come a little bit conflict with the credo of journalism I think the decision to not widely circulate those names I think those names are part of the public record I think they need to be mentioned once by the New York Times and once by the watch. We're not in the business of censoring stuff but we're also not in the business of creating outlaw legends of Jesse James about these like these horrible people that will make other people want to be similar kinds of people we do have some role there to balance but it scares me even saying it out loud because I also don't think we necessarily have the equipment to make those kinds of decisions without shirking some of our duties or compromising I mean the minute we venture into that area I start to get nervous eventually because you know I think there's some live as I like you wouldn't want to take you know the Unabomber his letter and publish it I mean you know no I would believe I would totally publish and I think if I did a Washington Post did do I think I would I was trying to find an example where you would say Well I think this would clearly constitute amplifying a message that should have should have been amplified and it would actually be that the journalists responsibility to report the incident in some way but not to put the whole message of hate out there publicly right so I mean seems to me that's the balance Yeah and you know I think that's a good place to look at it too but you know I don't know how my profession is to deal with this but there is one area that I don't want to miss here these are also often young men who get radicalized because they feel hopeless there for the same reason suicide rates and certain groups are going up they feel hopeless they don't see the opportunities they feel excluded and that somehow or other we need to start talking about group of people how how why is it easy to teach them to hate so there's a lot of theories out there about who's right to be recruited or right to be into one of in one of these groups none of them perfect none of the theories is perfect we released a report earlier this year talking about and analyzing and undercurrent of. In the groups there is a real anti woman like an entire I. Ology built on that some of them aren't even aware of it but that's what they're doing that is one thing that when we look at these groups it's a very common thread I think that you know educating people wherever we can about gender and what it means and how it can ask how it's not the enemy is incredibly important but that's taking a very humanizing approach to these people and you don't know which ones are going to be the ones that are going to be recruited it's very hard to predict all the other than when you talk to some of the recruiters I mean that used to be that they guys would go to schools you know in poor neighborhoods and recruit you know disgruntled white teenagers who you know were on the football team right and that was what they were doing now with social media it's much harder to determine who is going to be recruited there but I think that taking as many cuts as can is important see I should admit something different so. I have. Job because I always wanted to be a professor at school and I'm really interested in all this stuff we're talking about a world that's broken we're talking about people who perceive the world as broken and the able to nurture to deliver deliver. We're talking about really kind of a failure of. Of all the things that really you know theology strives for I mean that's what produces these people right I mean it isn't probably Satan it's actually the failure of something else to work right so there's the need for connection and meaning and then we've got a we've got a situation where more and more people are feeling that path that's missing and their lives and so to me that's this is this the need to create spaces for empathy and for connection now my Luther King was right you know darkness doesn't drive out darkness the. And you know hate doesn't drive out hate and you've got to have love and that is should be I just a real summons to people in face community has to step up to the plate and love more and risk being called weak because it's really not weak at this is this is the ultimate strength because love is transformative I mean there there still is the question of policies and laws and all that and I don't mean to discount any of that but the final solution is a solution that is a human one of connection to so great panel. Thank you so much for. Them thank you for listening to the call and I can Rocio I'm Jeff Cohen here with Lucy and Alpha Fanciulla and we are taking just a few minutes before the top of the hour to remind you that this show and all of the shows you listen to on public radio are one of the most fantastic things in your life but without your support they can't come to you in the same way with the same sort of fervor and gusto so well we'd like you to do is to pledge your support now to public radio we've got a 1500 dollar gold is our help us meet it please 180584278 are super close to reaching that goal at the end of the hour trying to raise $1500.00 before we head on to here and now or the faith Middleton figure out is actually today is Thursday Ok I mean let me reprogram here the future may as it's coming out but not here and now which is heard during the week at 2 o'clock on every other day but the important thing is you can that is support the column back on to show because you listen we've heard from many listeners who've become supporters including Kate in Middletown who actually went to our website at w npr dot org She writes interesting and informative topics and shows the common McEnroe show definitely brings you in gauging radio that was a very interesting conversation the panel discussion at the walk ins in school in Hartford. 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After the housing bust one woman fought for years to keep her family home it's not in my nature she was taking a small group of men who made a killing profiting off the death of the American dream has been the greatest thing I've ever done my professional life honestly on the next reveal the home wreckers. Saturday afternoon at 4. This is Connecticut Public Radio n.p.r. And n.p.r. 81 married in at 90.5 w p k t w p k t h d one Norwich 89 point one. Point 5 Debbie you are ally Southampton at 91.3 and w n p all dot org. Last April 18 year old Anthony Vega Cruz was driving to get dinner when he was pulled over by courts. From a new in the news collaborative where this is now a collision course between a teenager and an officer into a fatal for. All of the racial profiling and policing in New England where a disproportionate number of black and brown drivers are pulled over for traffic violations we don't have any racial. And you often hear that a racially profiling was Portuguese American comedians use their backgrounds as material to your much but they don't try he or she can make no go it's new. Life from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying vice president Mike Pence has just announced that the u.s. And Turkey have agreed to a temporary cease fire against Kurdish fighters in northern Syria for years a Kurds had fought alongside American forces against ISIS until president abruptly severed that relationship just days ago stunning many national security military leaders and even some of his most ardent supporters in Congress the decision expose the u.s. As allies to attacks by militia backed by Turkey which considers Kurdish fighters to be terrorists in Ankara today Pence says the truce will allow the withdrawal of Kurdish forces from a safe zone United States will always be grateful for our partnership with S.T.'s in defeating ISIS but we recognize the importance and the value of a safe zone to create a buffer between. Syria proper in the Kurdish population and and the Turkish border fence says he believes the Kurdish people will endure but tens of thousands of civilians are internally displaced and subject to attacks by Turkish backed militia authorities in Russia are continuing a crackdown on dissent conducting searches and opening new criminal cases against political opponents N.P.R.'s loosing came reports one.