He is w. When p.r. And w. When p.r. H.d. One merit in at 90.5 w p Katie and w p k t h d one Norwich at 89 point one w w f m Stamford at 88.5 w r I's Southampton at 91.3 w a I see Springfield at 91.9 and w when p.r. Dot org. Coming up after the New Years on the b.b.c. World Service it's hard to talk with me Stephen Sackur when the Spanish government throughout the regional administration in Catalonia imposed direct rule from Madrid and called regional elections it took a calculated risk well soon we'll see whether it was well advised if Catalans give a clear majority to pro independence parties Spain and the European Union will be facing a protracted crisis Well my guest is Spain's minister for e.u. Affairs hold a tell a go can Madrid outmaneuver the secessionists it's not up to me this is a regional election this is the month Kristie they've got to win people with in a perfectly legal presently organized money to run off election coups as they ways that whole hate to Ledo all the hard talk off of the news. Hello I'm Gerri Smith with the b.b.c. News the opposition in Zimbabwe has described a decision by the new president Emerson were to appoint senior military figures to top cabinet jobs as a betrayal of people's hopes he named a general as foreign minister and the Air Force chief as agriculture minister the war veterans leader Chris mood becomes information minister the B.B.C.'s Shingo nuker is in Harare there was a lot of speculation about whether he didn't clear the organisation but clearly a reaction from many people is that of disappointment in the fact that many of the old faces and that's about me and had seen he's trimmed his cabinet from 26 to 22 and also reduce the number of dignity to ministers but there are a lot of long time serving cabinet ministers who are deeply unpopular that are members of this cabinet age former Catalan ministers are appearing in the Supreme Court to Madrid to appeal for their release from prison on bail so they can campaign for the regional elections in 3 weeks time they were members of the cabinet that declared Catalonia as independence in October a move deemed illegal by Spain's Constitutional Court gave an early reports the ministers have spent a month in prison alongside 2 independents activists all facing charges of sedition and rebellion that carries a jail term of up to 30 years today at the Supreme Court lawyers for the ministers say they were asked to be released on bail on grounds that they accept the rule of law from Madrid and were pledged not to flee privately senior sources in the Spanish government say they would like to see the ministers released and allow them to campaign in the elections fearing that a martyr effect from their continued imprisonment could serve to galvanize support for independence party's government disguised in burkas have stormed a college campus in Pakistan killing 9 people officials say 8 students and an office worker died in the attack on the push our agricultural training institute has succumbed to come on gunmen reportedly disguised in. Entered the complex this morning before opening fire all 3 attackers were subsequently killed by the security forces today is a national holiday in Pakistan marking the birthday of the Prophet Mohammad as a result the hostel of the training institute was officially closed but a number of students were present on the site which hour it was the scene of one of the most gruesome attacks in Pakistan when over $130.00 children were killed in an attack on a school 3 years ago since then the number of attacks by militants in the country has greatly reduced a powerful sight where one has battled southern India causing widespread damage power supplies have been counted to millions of homes at least 8 people have been killed in the states of Tamil Nadu and Carola many of them were crushed by trees ripped up by winds of up to 130 kilometers per hour around $100.00 fisherman a missing weather forecasters say the sidetone has now intensified into a severe storm world news from the b.b.c. Pope Francis says celebrated a huge open air Mass for Roman Catholics in Bangladesh on the 1st papal visit there in more than 30 years about 100000 people attended the event in a park in the capital Dhaka later the pope will meet refugees from the wreckage of Muslim minority who have fled violence in neighboring mammo he was criticized by campaigners for failing to use the term Revenger when he visited me earlier this week. A Japanese court has sentenced an American who worked on a u.s. Military base in Okinawa to life in prison for the rape or murder of a young woman Kenneth sins arter a former u.s. Marine stabbed and beat 20 year old Rena Shimabukuro and left her for dead in April last year the crime sparked anger on the island where many Japanese people resent the presence of thousands of u.s. Troops. They've been protesting Honduras as the country continues to await the announcement of the final results from Sunday's presidential election rods police fired tear gas to disperse protesters in the capital to goosey gulper and they've been demonstrations elsewhere the main opposition contenders overdone Estrella has complained of vote rigging President Hollande of London and as he's now really ahead the world's largest lithium ion battery has started delivering power to the electricity grid in South Australia 100 megawatt device posed by the us from Tesla is connected to a wind farm Tesla's basilar Musk had pledged to build the battery within 100 days a promise the company for filled the state primary Jay Weatherill said the battery showed that Australia was leading the way in renewable energy this is something to be proud of this isn't just a South Australian achievement it's a national achievement and we stand tall on the world stage exercising the function of leadership in Russian renewable energy and we're very proud of it and the nation should be proud of it and that's the b.b.c. News. Welcome to talk on the b.b.c. World Service with me Stephen Sackur my guest today has been a loyal diplomatic servant of the Spanish government for much of his Korea all hate to Ledo cannot have anticipated that his promotion to the post of minister for European Affairs would coincide with his country facing a political and constitutional crisis that would send shock waves throughout the European Union it all hinges on Catalonia Spain's prosperous and proud northeastern region which has a strong independence movement the regional government held a referendum on secession which the Madrid government declared illegal and did its best to disrupt in the end 40 percent of voters turned out on the overwhelming majority voted for independence in the ensuing crisis Madrid threw out the regional government imposed direct rule and cold a new regional election for December the 21st so now the stage is set for a political showdown if Catalans give a clear majority to suspension as parties Spain and the European Union will be facing a protracted crisis My guest is Spain's minister for e.u. Affairs all hate to Ledo how did Madrid get into this mess and how does it get out well hold Kate to Ledo joins me now on the line from Madrid welcome to home talk thank you very much knew presumably the forces all of unity the political parties backing the integrity of Spain as it currently exists you want them to win don't you I do that's my personal opinion but it's not up to me this is a regional election this is the most Kristie they've got 7 people with. The organized money to an all election as they was in. But my point is this if you want the forces supporting unity to win why don't you make it a little bit easier for those parties by knowledge ing the grave mistakes that Madrid made in the run up to and on the day of the cattle referendum on independence Surely that would help if you actually said you know what we did make some terrible errors I don't seem to notice any mistake we all make mistakes but the biggest mistake here was to revoke by a simple majority of the region the government on the 6 and sentence of the jumping over is really getting to even that only got his seat they revoked the basis of the rights and freedoms of all come to lands in that they're doing yeah that was the biggest mistake let me criticised the mistakes they graze mistakes and the great damage they have done to economically socially we all that it with the other day we lost a very good candidate above the law not because of this this and this is this is the big issue the damage the Independent is the government and they won't bend and dispose as has done to God saloon we are going to recall them from these because the 1st thing that you need is legal said and see your 1700 companies Hobbes left gods and yet because of these the we want them to go back and for that they need legacy God said and see when you revoke everything they got he would know when you don't even float your only God It seems that nobody wants to go there yet yes yes or it might be a letter started so they know it all he got it and then we can build together was it wise for you to use such powerful and polarizing rhetoric when you cold the referendum that they held in Catalonia and I'm quoting you directly and evil illegal act why on earth would you call it evil these are just civilians. Inducting a vote No it wasn't civilians conducting the vote it was a government jumping over every even their own region the Lol the basis of their legend to need to be breaking their own little to approve convening a referendum which they knew was illegal that's evil and that's not democracy you can not jump over your own Democrats you can all we see the whole truth has to be changed I tell injured by a simple majority that's evil but evil evil and evil is the people he's legal in a democratic world yeah evil is a Would that indicate something about the mindset of the government in Madrid seems to have another thing that indicates your mindset is sending in security forces to still peaceable men and women from voting dragging them by the head beating them up a human rights groups reporting that there were dozens of people who had injuries as a result again if you want to say so every advantage might change the political atmosphere in the run up to the December 21st vote will you do that listen I am sorry and we all really great that there was a big injured as far as we know there were 2 people being hit in the hospital one with a Honda doc and we. Checked for reports about people being injured but 2 people in hospital and that's when we read some of what the police force is was sent there by a judge I have a cotton judge by the way to enforce a court order they used force on their way in about 2 am not 2000000 200000 people there were 2 people in hospital that's regretfully so I'm sorry for that well I'm sorry yeah the people who got injured yes but I would be helpful if I would be true to those forces it would be a help it would be helpful if you were truthful about the real extent of the injuries for example the Hague Center for Strategic Studies did a survey of what happened they found. Hundreds of votes is had been injured on polling day and they concluded with these words they use of force displayed by the Spanish police has no place in an established democracy the use of force was done under court all this in the space resistance and violent attacks against the police there were 45 policemen injured in 2 means and 200000 dead 2 people in cost me the one with the hive that requests food but I don't agree with a lot they hate. Conference going to his ace and says we have to buy companies to police forces when they are just following a court order I'm sorry I do that in Spain in the u.k. And in any democratic country another question concerning the the atmosphere in the run up to this December vote it concerns the fate of the several members of the former regional administration who are languishing in Spanish jails right now including of course Ario and K.O.'s the former vice president of the regional government he has described the situation inside his prison he says quote communication with the outside world is very limited we can only talk for 15 minutes each week on the phone I haven't yet seen my children you're a Democrat you live in Spain how do you feel about locking up again I say it civilian politicians who are pursuing their political agenda with a mandate and elected mandate from the voters and you come up in these conditions how do you as a Democrat feel about that I didn't see the bow that I have my own opinion but you know what you say you love them not a judge who has locked them up as you say they have put them in provision of prison for committing crimes for. As they are accused of committing serious crimes it is the judge who in a democratic country like Spain all the u.k. Who puts people in j. Especially provisionally these people who are accused of serious crimes and these people have the same rights I suppose as any person who's in jail I don't think that they can complain of having the worse of better treatment than anybody has in fact I think they are in their one of the most modern prisons in in space where they are if you're in Iran so I don't agree with that well if you're a Democrat Mr Ledo does not trouble you that with the vote on December 21st looming and Mr Huhne care of us and others wanting to put themselves forward to the public for election it seems is very troubling but they are still locked up why do they need to be locked up why can't you at least give them their freedom because they're not convicted of anything given their freedoms or at least they can participate in the political you know in the space in the u.k. The one who puts people in prison is a judge and the one who decides to put them out of freedom is a judge I could have my opinion it would be more comfortable if you would politically if they were not in prison but this is not our call this is not the government's goal in a democracy in the u.k. It's the same thing we cannot put this be done in c. But it would be a judge in fact they have a. Court order that put them in prison it will be reviewed by the Supreme Court on the Supreme Court will decide probably in the next few days so we'll see but the government can come do anything these people would not put in prison because of what they think because they are independent just these days and this has been an independent all he's life he has been accused of committing crimes he has to defend he can defend himself with all that got Aunty's on the eve of proven guilty he will go on not to jail depending on what the judge says not depending on what the guy. All them and says that's very important let's get ahead of government Mr Hoyer. I just wonder what his message is to the people of Catalonia today what is he offering Catalans in terms all of a response to the political situation in the region which suggest Madrid is listening and Madrid is prepared to offer something to the people of the region to give them more power a sense that Madrid is prepared to meet them at least Hoffa way in their desire for more autonomy more regional power you must know that is probably the region with all the regions in Spain with Hans and Mo was the most I was not sure about from that that's really the room or it's not true is that the later I call that you get away with that because one of the general has gone to regions I can name you right now the Basque region of Nevada they both have much more significant tax raising and fiscal powers than in Catalonia you know that no no but that they that that telling a hoss which they don't have but anyway they got tellin you hoss had has never had so much power and we come these guys that we can discuss fiscal arrangements in fact this isn't the whole he has been invited so many times president when then President Bush the month the president must to come and discuss in the commission to discuss the fiscal territorial arrangements they don't come but this is the whole cost also to discuss 45 different complaints complaints that affect real life so real people in Gaza linger on the hot refused so presume the Hollywood is also seeing 1st of all the restart of the legality of said government hostile actions and with a new got to them go the meant he would be open for discussion it's all discussing any thing and. If they want to change the constitution we have a legal framework they have to propose that in parliament they have to conduct political dialogue because these inside who are where do you conduct political dialogue in a democracy it has to be in parliament so the president who has always been and will be open to dialogue we have opened a commission for you to fall for as starting discussing if we need and what we need to reform our Constitution that's the place to discuss neither of us knows how this election is going to work out on December 21st but if those parties clearly backing independence when a clear majority in the new regional government on the latest opinion polls I've seen suggest that the party in the lead right now is Mr care which is party to the gentleman I just talked about with his e.r.c. Party which is entirely committed to independence it looks like the voters going to be very close but if the forces over independence when will you accept that that represents a legitimate mandate for the cattle and regional government to push on with their quest for secession and independence it will be a mandate and no I don't accept that because you know that to do that they would have to go present themselves in the odds is punished by them and what all the Spaniards represented propose that and that all spotty and their presentation of the side world their country East because the fundamental thing here which is missing is always it's written not in this spot is Constitution or international public law that a lot of the country can decide what the whole country is it's also President for me I want to decide with my country why should anyone deprive me from voting India and also from giving my opinion of my country is the definition of my country you know we have a constitution that was amended by 19. One percent of the talent which is very clear about these it is very clear and says that the country is what Spain is has to be decided by all spot was interesting and I'm not sensing any movement or compromise in your arms says but it is interesting to note that in 2006 they called the constitutional agreement but sprains signed up to did talk of a cattle and nation you're now it seems not prepared to recognise any notion of self-determination for the people of Catalonia and I would just suggest to you that if this vote goes the way of the Independence Party you're going to have a crisis in Spain and the European Union will probably begin to lose patience with the Madrid government that is not prepared to talk the language of compromise well that's your opinion it's not my opinion it's these kind of things on top and in Europe and in the European Union any law the European Union has a treaty you know all we have all signed to these treaty and it says that the European Union meaning they open institutions on the European countries member states to respect those to do so not all of the member states it wouldn't be possible in France it wouldn't be possible in Germany you know in Italy the constitution of quote revoked lol in some of the Italian provinces calling for a referendum of said that that mission they only difference with the custom in government on those regional governments in city is that the regional governments it's an accepted the court's ruling the regional government and got that in a didn't so it is a question it's not a question of real democracy in the world it is the role in the democratic world it is the expression all democratic dialogue so you want to change the Constitution come propose it and even if you have enough support our exchanges are we would all of them be able to vote for civility let me move on to. Another issue which is very much in your portfolio given that you are responsible for a you affairs that is the state of the BRICs it negotiations the British government is very keen to see the e.u. Move on to the next phase of BRICs in negotiations when the European Council meets in December the British say they have done enough on the various 1st phase this years to move to the really big deal which is talking about the future trade relationship do you in Spain see anough progress made for you and your government to bank a move to the 2nd phase of the BRICs that negotiations when they go seasons are under way as we talk and they would be underway for the next week old 10 days so I hear that there are some progress there is some progress there was not enough pro-business last time we meet we met a day you were being counseled there was some steps I must say taken by Prime Minister may that where I've noticed. In Spain I've noted stem we think that we need and I do and we think that we're getting close but we need something long under the British government knows well let me tell you they're not. Going to make this many times we don't know about how much time it is to tell later so I'm going to try to make it quick what let's get to specifics start with the money in brief thirty's a man had cabinet appear to have sanctions now offering the e.u. Roughly 40000000000 euros as a financial settlement as part of the BRICs it deal is not enough yes or no no no it's and it's not that it's not enough we're not looking for a figure we're looking for a commitment to on the boss commitments and we have to we don't have to agree on that on the speaker of the stage we have to agree on principles to arrive at a figure when the final deal is made next issue and it's very pressing in recent days with a. Relationship developing between the British government and the Irish government the Irish government says that it will veto any move to the next phase of negotiations unless the u.k. Government is entirely clear about how it's going to avoid a hard border between northern Ireland which of course remains part of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland which of course is a member state of the European Union do you feel that enough progress has been made on battery issue. In that we bought a Republic of Ireland friends we we and I know that the prime minister may in the u.k. Want the same solution that we have no border between the Republic of Ireland on Northern Ireland because we all want the fried egg good Friday night we meant to to survive that breaks it and we want to come and we have to find solutions and we need some. Friends that we need some more commitment so we trust them there. But I guess the point is there's the British government is sort of blaming the Irish and saying that the Irish are playing politics with the border issue but you seem to be suggesting to me that there is absolute unity amongst all of the member states of the European Union excluding Britain of course unity and that this isn't a question of Ireland playing politics you're all right now do not believe that the u.k. Is off it off on the border is that what you're saying I was in Dublin last week. I was told me that they need some more concrete commitments so I'm willing to learn to trust them you know the they know what it was all about I know what sort of but I confess to trust them then negotiate about me and we have given the mounded to negotiate about the end which is quite clear about that we trust. On the colleagues on that but we know that the u.k. Is also an interest. In preserving our Friday Agreement so I think we can get an agreement some final point about breaks it which is actually taking us back to Catalonia in a way let's go fish nationalist movement and of course they are in government in Scotland in their government they are keen to hold off the BRICs it a 2nd Scottish independence referendum and if they win it does look as though there's a strong possibility Scotland might before too long be an independent nation if that were to be the case and they applied for membership of the European Union off to the u.k. Had bricks from the European Union would Spain welcome Scotland into the European Union. They had too many ifs in your quest so allow me not to respond clearly to question that. If these these things evolve referendums and set determination referendums I think that you might present a view it is not it's another random So we will respect that u.k. They've got its eases in the in the referendum we will have nothing to say about it and I hope this got this government has the same respect for Op constitution that we hold that constitution Well I think I'm reading between the lines there I'm going to end with one big thought about the European Union it is your portfolio I think it's fair to say that there are lots of big visions around we had John Clune career out lining out a very ambitious vision for a much deeper integrated unites heed to Europe we have a manual macro in talking about the necessity for Europe to develop much closer financial integration with the with the financial minister of finance minister some beginnings of pan-European taxation a defense force but at the same time there's a massive leadership problem and dilemma cools and. Well you know Spanish government is weak it's got corruption scandals as well as the Catalonia problem Mr Blackwell isn't very popular where is the leadership that is going to make these dreams of a powerful integrated into reality as it is I'm saying Spain has always been that he pro European country except the. Like Mr Blitzer the monk who was insulting the European Union yesterday but we are very pro European and we would be among the most ambitious we had gone through with a very very difficult economic crisis Spain we are now growing we we we would get over these got to learn constitutional crises we are getting it got to be has been restored and we will be needing the deepening of the European Union I can assure you that we have to end. In Madrid thank you very much for being on all the talk Thank you. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service and the u.s. Has made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media with support from Apple they are businesses of all sciences choose Apple or of the simplify their sales tax compliance with real time rate some automatic filing more and more at Apple a red dot com Apple Lera Carrick's compliance from right. This is the d.v.c. World Service with me man while I sat across that and coming up the business daily team found a long lost physical Bitcoin under a pile of paper clips in the office this week just as the digital currency soared in value we cashed it in the did it make us rich and is bitcoin really the future of money we speak to a Nobel Economics Prize winner who says no that's after the nice. B.b.c. News where Gerry Smit the opposition in Zimbabwe has described the decision by the new president Emerson on going to appoint senior military figures to top jobs in the Cabinet as a betrayal of people's hopes Mr non-God were named General as his foreign minister and the Air Force chief as agriculture minister President Robert Mugabe was ousted by the military last month after 37 years in power the government dressed in burkas have stormed a college campus in Pakistan killing 9 people most of them students the Pakistani Taliban has said it counted out the attack in Bashar adding that they had targeted a safe house for the military's i.s.i. Agency the government were killed by the Army 8 former counselor ministers are appearing in the Supreme Court of Madrid to appeal for their release from prison so they can campaign for the regional elections in 3 weeks time they were members of the cabinet the declared Catalonia is independence in October around 100000 Roman Catholics in Bangladesh have attended an open air mass led by Pope Francis later he will meet for a hinge of refugees who fled violence in neighboring mi amor. A powerful Cyclon has battered southern India causing widespread damage power supplies have been cut to millions of homes at least 8 people have been killed in the states of Tamil Nadu and Carola many of them were crushed by trees ripped up by winds of up to 130 kilometers per hour. The Japanese court has sentenced in American who worked on a u.s. Military base in Okinawa to life in prison for the rape or murder of a young woman Kenneth since our 2 stabbed him beat 20 year old arena Shimabukuro and left her for dead in April last year and the biggest lithium ion battery in the world has started delivering power to Australia's electricity grid the $100.00 megawatt device gold by the us firm Tesla was completed within $100.00 days b.b.c. News. Hello I'm annoyed and this is business daily from the b.b.c. Coming up the world is on a bit coin high but this Nobel Economics Prize winner wants it back and because I'm . About Money Laundering I desire to have a lack of transparency for tax avoidance tax evasion all kinds of nefarious activities Bitcoin believes beg to differ and what happened when the business daily found a long lost physical Bitcoin under a pile of paper clips in the office it's the private key which is the long page appears to be valid and this is the bit coin it tracks and the answer to this address is from world from well it all will be revealed here on business daily from the b.b.c. . So unless you've been living under a rock recently you can't to fail to notice that the digital currency Bitcoin shot up in value this week one Bitcoin was worth over $10000.00 on Wednesday it's back on the 10000 now pretty volatile but still up over 1000 percent since the start of this year not bad given that Bitcoin was invented just 8 years ago by a mysterious program a known only as such Nakamoto But before we go on you may be wondering what exactly is bitcoin Anyway thankfully the internet is full of tutorials so there's a coin that's currently worth hundreds of us dollars but it's not made of gold or platinum or any precious metal in fact it's not the kind of coin you can hold in your hand or stick in a piggy bank it's a digital currency which means it only exists electronically I'm talking about Bitcoin so the most basic level these crypto currency is are really no different than the money that you have in your wallet similar to this money in my wallet it has no intrinsic value it's just bits of data. Call introducing bitcoins Bitcoin is a decentralized digital. Which simply means no banks no governments no foreigners bitcoin network just consists of people using. Awesome right well that depends on how you see it in a moment we'll speak to a respected economist who believes digital currencies like Bitcoin should be banned but 1st what do you buy exactly when you buy a bit of corn essentially as we heard there it's a set of codes the more demand there is the higher in value Bitcoin goes and electronic Ledger known as blocked technology keeps a tab on that but it's all pretty abstract it exists out there in the ether that said we did dig out a long forgotten physical bitcoin in our office this week Needless to say the discovery generated quite a bit of excitement had the business daily just join the Legion of Bitcoin millionaires who are in the business daily office and Sarah Trina's are planning editor sitting next to me as she's got bit chords etc How did you find that bit Corey a physical Bitcoin just looks like a normal course where the shiny was very light sort of like cheap plastic just like something that a child would play with in a game where did you find it so I find it cheering a half years ago we went to the Isle of Man and to a story about the government regulating pick coin and we interviewed a man who creates sort of I suppose gift certificates he could call them so he puts all the code for Bitcoin in a physical representation of a coin The idea was that people could put them away safely and give them as gifts as gifts exactly he said he said because he wanted to buy back when faced children say when we interviewed him at the end he said Oh you can have one this is the smallest denomination of the coin and. Me this tiny little light to plastics silver coin which has the Bitcoin symbol on it a b. With the Q lines to it looks like a dollar sign and then it says Strength in numbers at the top and coin at the bottom and then on the back it's got a slightly scratched off on a gram because this is actually been lying under some paper cups on my desk for ts and. I just. Found it. So I went to the website of the company and it says redeem your Bitcoin because I just completely Haven't I think that this is the company that you went to visit the company we want to see g. Backs and says peel off the hologram from the back of the coin it's kind of like a mystery and the moment it's half filled off. And so there's some teeny tiny little writing underneath. So the writing is essentially lots of random letters it must be a code and presumably you have to. Write that on to the web page yeah so what I have to do which I haven't done yet is block chain and set up a wallet and then I can import my digital currency with this. Apparently into my chain wallet and then I suppose we can take it from there as to. Whether that can then be redeemed into real money. Or whatever you read even in tears or if it actually is just simply turned 5 random letters. Go and try and open this new wallet block trade and see what happens and we'll come back to where you've done it I'm going to try my best. I'll give it a go good luck. To Sarah still at the computer Edwin lane our producers joined her trying to figure out how much the set it's calling is actually worth a wee unfeasibly which you know yes they will keep trying it didn't work I don't know what this means is it's not that easy is it redeeming you because. Well while we live Sara to figure out just how much that bit of bitcoin is worth we want to know exactly how the world of digital currency works what's behind bitcoins huge rise since the beginning of the cme Why is it so volatile Are we as many suggest in the middle of a bitcoin bubble Danny Scott is of course in corner it runs a website where digital currency is a bought and sold I started by asking him a basic question Do you own Bitcoin I do own some but once or so you've done quite well out of the recent rise Yeah how well. What now something not to mention the minute Ok how do you explain the surge in value of Bitcoin since the start of this year and there's interest from c.m.e. Futures and more recently asked and I see only being future traders who talk in big Stock Exchange New York traders or so they're about to launch as far as I'm aware in about we could see their futures market for because so does that lends it credibility doesn't exactly yeah and often that's helped the more recent rise as we've seen historically as the price rises the interest in the industry rises alongside it so it does become a little bit of a snowball effect the more people coming on board the more the price moves with teeth think we're in a bubble because in a bubble it's been thrown around quite a lot because it's been in bubbles before 2010 of things when the 1st bubbles only going to $0.10 think it was 2011 was up to $31.00 again it came crashing down as such the more recent $12013.00 is. At the time an all time high of just over a $1000.00 and it came down to $250.00 within a space of sort of 12 months after but then again look where we are today so quite honestly yes I'm sure they'll be a correction of some point in the future don't you think it is that makes it so unpredictable I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that it is for many people such an abstract investment I mean you are essentially buying software code that's all of this software code on the Internet which a community of people have attached a value to yeah you could describe in that way it's created by community effectively there's no central governing body there's no government controlling it there's no one entity one company controlling because I guess the price has been driven and the supply and demand of it is being driven globally so there's no one country that controls it is it a currency is it a commodity how should people approach it is own answered question when I 1st bought it going it was more for the technology side I'm a software developer by trade so it was definitely getting into the geeky aspects of it I think as time is going on people all trying to call it commodity you've got to pound decline as a currency and you've got a variety of countries around the world at the minute that are trying to figure out exactly the answer to that question because you see it as a currency why not be an all in one additional eyes or ask your eyes ation is there yeah why does it have to be categorized as a currency or as a commodity why not be both but I suppose a currency is something you exchange for goods and services is there how you see it you could kind of compare that to gold as well but he reckons his day it's not going anywhere yeah you'll have to look at history of various countries of it in the past tried to bump it corn itself China Russia they've all done u. Turns and you know it doesn't stop the use of corn in the interpreters I suppose it doesn't help that for the problem the big going is that people find it very difficult to get their head round what it is and the technology to back that yet completely I think a lot of people when the saying is. Are they being narrow minded in the way that they all say in the industry and corn itself I think if they did a little bit research and understood the technology behind what Clinton potentially do for the world then you know they may have a different view Danisco have corn corn to tearing Bitcoin along but he's someone who isn't saying it's a long dosa Stiglitz the former chief economist at the World Bank and winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics big Corning is about money go on during a desire to have a lack of transparency for tax avoidance tax evasion all kinds in a fairy a sect of unease So I believe if we demanded the saying kind of transparency for transactions that go on to becoming that we do have transactions going on in the banking system the big going market would just collapse but couldn't believe is a digital currency believes it all gets incredibly transparent the blocked chain technology means everyone can see exactly how much big quote is out there whose goal say's we're even now seeing the futures market and who wants their own Bitcoin futures you see Microsoft accepting payments in bitcoin central banks it is becoming more legitimate isn't it doesn't have the transparency of who is at gauging and what transactions for what purposes and if you go back to the original demand for because things it was for drug dealing and from other kinds as I say of nefarious activities I agree that we need to go to a digital currency and actually if you look at transactions in many advanced countries there are more than 90 percent digital and we ought to complete that and go all the way to of tronic money but the medium of exchange of the dollar or the pound is a perfectly good and relatively stable medium of exchange farmer stable then because. So given that you have to ask you know why do people want to go to Big going you know as I keep saying it's because they don't want the kind of oversight that we have in our banking system and what they really fear is that as we go to digital to electronic money they'll be even more oversight and the ability to engage in money laundering will be even more difficult we've been closing the net and it's precisely because we've been closing the net these kinds of activities in our banking system that they want to go outside our banking system and you see a direct link between all these efforts around the world to plan down on money laundering tax evasion that kind of thing is linked to consent to the rise of Bitcoin very much so that is really what's driving the big corn market and that's why I said it should be outlawed but we actually don't need to outlaw it all we need to do is demand the same Frank sparing say that we do the banking system and it will just collapse of its own accord but it's going to be impossible to suppress as a as a currency isn't it I think it's not that difficult because all we need to do is to say transfer because things in $2.00 or pounds is not legal and just say that corporations like Microsoft are not allowed to accept payments so once we start saying you can't buy real estate with because you can't buy assets with back goings once we go to more transparency and frags actions in the way we ought to be doing to shut down money laundering the opportunity to use because things for these kinds of nefarious activities will diminish at the same time would you say to people who are listening to you would say it's just someone that talking who is not. In with the new economy with its old world view of of digital currencies I don't know I'm very budging support of having digital tronic money establish currency is not not the next right the question is why do we need to have an alternative currency what is the problem that we are trying to solve as I said it's not greater stability because the because a market is more volatile than ordinary currency it's absolutely clear that we have the potential of a very efficient electronic payment mechanism so you have to ask what is the problem that they are trying to solve and I think I there is a problem that they're trying to solve they don't like transparency because with transparency you can engage in money laundering drug dealing all kinds of nefarious activities and the question is we as a society should we allow that in my view is no well Professor Stiglitz would not approve of what we did next here on the Business Daily Desk back to Sarah Trita our planning at 820000000 case this being a few hours now I don't even remember you recount it in the meantime wrapped in a few other things I'm just. Yes Eureka say I contacted the chap gave me this coin and he sent me a link he said this was actually just an example coin has actually made of nothing metal in this is just a plastic taken a cheap one for you know if you see that take and sent me sent me some instructions that what the problem was that it was an old version of the belt chain website that the instructions were from so that if he cryptocurrency forums you next post now. And they said I need to change my settings then I got a little sign on the block chain site saying this is a need for advanced pieces. I felt slightly a culture about this being my 1st foray into critic currencies so I put in typed in the extreme the small extremely long number the code exactly the coyote which was hiding beneath a hologram and it set the private key which is the long code appears to be valid and this is the Bitcoin address and the balance of this address is troubled from the North Point note one bit coins which act at 10 to 2 on Wednesday afternoon of November the 29th November the 202017. Means I now have $81.00 pounds and $36.00 pence in my block chain account for about $100.00 where rich I can I can buy the team not taking a choice a Christmas lunch. And nothing nefarious about that surely I am looking forward to a Christmas lunch my colleague Sarah tree that cashing in 0 point one of a bit quoting Well let us know what you think is bitcoin certain value driven by many more stop just institutions adopting it or is it linked to a global compound a money laundering and tax evasion the jury is out and with that we end this edition of Business Daily. The b c b.b.c. . And no witness the history programme from the b.b.c. World Service with me all this made no way today we're going back to 957 when Soviet authorities decided to build a sign city in the depths of Siberia thousands of scientists went to work in academics 80 as it became known it is physically here bluto Yishai out my 1st impression was that of their world images to be honest I came here from the city and everything was different here the houses were right in the middle of the forest it was so quiet and the air seemed so fresh when snow fell in the van but it was white on the ground for one day 2 days a week for a whole month it remained white quite incredible normally the city snow turns gray or black after a day or 2 in the activity around there was one of the 1st scientists to come to academic City with his wife and small child who gave them their lives here I worked in academic city for 46 years since 962 I was a research chemist at the Institute of in Oregon a chemistry a town of 25000 inhabitants when you see everyone a scientist all hoping to become one even in the Research Institute average age is under 30 a new town called God a doctor or academic city in this b.b.c. Film from the made $960.00 is the filmmakers could hardly hide their astonishment at the effort to that was put into bringing so many scientists to what was initially just an empty spot in the middle of a frozen Siberian forest so what was the reason for building academic city in these harsh conditions of Siberia pointed to is there is so much forest here so many mineral. Yes they needed to find all these and learn how to extract them and so why 957 why was that the right time to build the city devoted to science no. Science had large behind the 920 s. And thirty's and during the war because many outstanding scientists including Nobel Prize winners and the left the country all were imprisoned so new scientists were needed but Siberia had an image problem sure everyone says that in times of Azhar people were exiled to Siberia would you exile anyone to a good place and that was the image of Siberia that wolves people their scientists from other parts of Russia were scared to come to Siberia because it was so far from Moscow from Leningrad when I could emic city was 1st set up there were no proper flight connections you had to travel by train for 3 days to get there from Moscow and parts from the university there were dozens of institutes in academic city each specializing in its own field of science and yet working in close proximity to each other the very 1st the city had an academic state he was the one that dealt with water resources the Institute of hydrodynamics and his direct at me high level in see if I was the head of the whole city Levante was persuaded to come to Siberia from Moscow one of the ball getting tips was generous investment in lab equipment. This is what's called a colliding beam of celery the only one of its kind in the world designed particles of matter particles of anti matter. And you. Know they did not attract us with money fair truck to us with interesting work and housing our salary was only 10 percent more than the others the so-called So Derian supplement but they did give us apartments in. Generally separate apartments at that time in the u.s.s.r. There was an acute shortage of housing the majority of young people then lived with their parents many already had children and of course we wanted to be independent from our parents and they were food shortages in the us the sun and your position in the academic hierarchy was reflected in the kind of food you had access to. Check admissions and those with doctorate degrees had food delivered to their houses and academicians had access to better food they could have caviar and also fruit a variety of meats and sausages and cheese and even ordinary residents ate better in academics 80 the other for the My wife came to academic city 1st before my son and I joined her and she wrote us fast selling sausages here in the shop in academic city I wrote back please send us some sausage could square live then had problems with food so my wife sent us parcels with sausages but Hudler is not that important to us to begin with we add in the canteen this was quicker we worked without keeping an eye on the time we very rarely came home from work before 8 o 9 at night I would look to the it is such talented scientists to work such long hours you know what it is have been and without asking too many questions I just wanted to do something interesting and useful and that was my motivation and the outstanding schooling for 2 drawn in academic city was another incentive this passion for mathematics has been cultivated in an unusual school in academics it's pretty clear recruit the ablest boys and girls from the whole of the Soviet Union the pupils are chosen by nationwide competition it's a kind of forcing house but genius. There's. Singing. At the English school. This was the very 1st school and academic city from the beginning it specialized in English they taught English very thoroughly my son Sasha went there and for some academics there was an option to travel abroad you can still see I personally didn't go to conferences abroad because I worked on a secret research program but my wife and many others went abroad one of my colleagues from the Institute went to France to work for a month and when he came back he sounded very impressed what is most amazing is how easy it is to get the necessary chemicals for experiments you fill out a form and chemicals are delivered within one to 3 days from anywhere in Europe we Soviet chemists found the staggering at that time you had to order substances or live a quick Mint a year in advance academics said he was 4 time zones away from Moscow and its party bosses did academics working here feel free and what they sought and said level of . Shit people had learned to the 930 s. During Starlin's repressions and of course people kept quiet we thought one thing but said something quite different allowed we did this from experience not everyone was brave enough to speak up against the Communist Party. Had got a model car. People don't be afraid as so my Alexander Golay chirpy filmed in academic city the challenge the ship they got off in the early sixties many famous singers came here to entertain us some came to the club called poured into Garland as Communist Party people said Anti serviette elements were gathering there. This thriving local art scene was also noticed by a fascination with jazz. Life in that condemning city was full of contradictions listening to jazz versus an inability to speak. This Lee funded research equipment this is the need to would it chemicals for lab experiments a year in advance say was academic C.T.'s success of this year's really new low cost the creation of academics as it was a great achievement a new generation of scientists has been nurtured here most people who work in academics as in our graduates of our university and what does Russia live on today gas and oil of course and who found and explore those resources our Siberian scientists and the I don't continues to live in academic City with his wife also a research scientist he was speaking to me Nova for this edition a witness and if you would like to hear other unique voices from history just search online for b.b.c. Witness. Could snap judgment from n.p.r. Your money your kids and the dog in your box are just going to have to wait. Until the story is over. Join me in Washington for Snap Judgment. Storytelling to be. Sat.