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Back into the program Bruce Hornsby the way it is now things some things never change you know the word skepticism is generally a good thing it's a good idea especially when you're dealing with strange topics the kind of things we talk about on this program what some would call fringe subjects from Tir science it used to mean it's sort of like that state motto of Missouri used to mean show me you know if you got proof. Believe it but you've got to show me the word However it's been hijacked a skeptic today is essentially a true believer of true believer in non-belief as much as zealot as any hardcore religious true believer in many ways you know we we deal with skeptics and skepticism a lot on this show because of the subjects we discuss but rarely is there a chance to put skeptics to the same test to hold them to the same standards that they try to impose on everyone else while a journalist named Robert McLuhan has done just that his book Randi's prize what skeptics say about the paranormal why they're wrong and why it matters is very timely very well written and in a moment Robert joins us we'll be right back. 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Welcome back Robert McLuhan is a freelance journalist and former foreign correspondent for The Guardian he's been a member of the Society for Psychical Research since 1993 and blogs about paranormal topics since 2014 he's edited the saya encyclopedia is a free online resource that contains more than $300.00 in-depth articles about a century and a half of scientific research into e.s.p. Dreams mediumship and related psychic experiences his new book is called Randi's prize what skeptics say about the paranormal why they're wrong and why it matters Robert welcome to the program thank you both. I wonder in your in your work online and writing about it for this encyclopedia and also your you know your blog do you engage with the with skeptics do you have a dialogue with them and can have a healthy conversation opens a question. I think 2 ounces Yes and. It depends what sort of skeptic they are the kind of skeptic that is just that to. To sort of smear and debunk. You know you can't wait until I have tried. And it works up to a point but it's really like a dialogue of the gap that no real contact. And I think got something increasingly what experience in people called for Valley is where people sort of come to gaze and try. To communicate because they're not interested in hearing the other points of view they just want to express their own so there's that. They're all very occasionally people who are much more serious. And then in both cases yes I'm content to let me have a meaningful discussion but not with the expectation of a change in mind I always find it amazing that scientist somebody who's a pure scientist who is interested in pursuing knowledge and gaining information and testing hypotheses that they would be interested in what we would call fringe or from Terra sciences siree search you up owes near death experiences mediums things of that sort to test whether it's true or not and how it might fit into a model of the universe and a model of reality but in fact it it seems like so many. For them it's a religion and that they did they close their ears and their eyes and they don't want to hear about it well what you describe the power cycle which is because the people I mean somebody like me put Sheldrake I'm right and I'm soft top. You know very well to people often make it by the idea of Islam and they do exactly that you know they experiment they they try it out I'm not going to sign my mind. I'm not too hard all of the vast majority. Because I think that I mean that all a lot of if you I guess they will touch on a few of them and Suppose we go along but there is a you know a psychological if you. Everybody needs a framework in which that you know that thinking takes place and I think science has that framework. And unfortunately these sorts of phenomena Raavan lie outside it and it's very difficult for them to make that step. So. I think they do react defensively of course from the outside it seems rather weird I'm not sure but there it is you know something you just have to accept I think you know I've covered Sy research and psychic topics a lot remote viewing it will get into those in a minute my main framework is dealing with U.F.O.'s and skepticism in that area and I've found that you know otherwise inquisitive scientific minds will say well you know I've read all the literature in that area and there's just no proof that U.F.O.'s are a genuine mystery or something unexplained and then the fact is there is no literature for them to read because articles scientific articles Duncan printed in science journals they there is no literature base for them to look at and. So you know it's hard to be too tough on them and that they think that they read it but in fact that they have they have not and I'm sure the same is true in the psychic realm where they're absolutely lies and I think that's not the problem but I think that's not the way that the sort of polarized nation of. Divide expected itself is that people put up a sort of a funk a logical barrier when they say there's no evidence. I mean they don't attribute everything or evidence because of the loss of evidence because you know people talk about it people have been there all the time it's stuff that it's not it's not function period it's not they have to be given permission to take it seriously and I think most people do cat they believe they need some sort of will. They don't really think for themselves they think of themselves up to a point. And I think actually a lot of people who think that they think for themselves some think that they think critically off still actually thinking within the scope of the ball. And that's why you get these you know these very defensive reaction. Well it's more debunking and skepticism and as you write in your book you know the mainstream scientists are happy to embrace a good debunking of a topic because they didn't want to believe in it to begin with absolutely and that's why I focus on Randi's prize. I expect that many of your listeners will be aware of James Randi Yeah go ahead and tell us the $1000000.00 challenge. That says it was actually discontinued a few years ago but I don't make the 3040 year you off with a cash prize and I think it started a few $1000.00. Does it sort of 12 over a period to become a $1000000.00. And the idea of that was that if. Anybody could convince him that they had some sort of special cyclical abnormal power if. He were towards. The pocket money. I'm thinking of the would be. Anybody who we. Could. Tell the future will communicate with Spirit will scream whatever it might be if any will be truly happy hours then why not go into the price from and get the money. And it's a very powerful statement made good use of a while Randy's gone and I was very interested in this I'm very interested in that sort of skepticism because I think that what he actually did was create a rather interesting device is the fact a trick if it's a comfort trick and you make it as difficult as possible for people who have to surprise you you discourage it as much as you can. You're right natural food that. It's virtually impossible for me. To go into the private. Lots of people have tried it and got into a terrific struggle with him over the conditions. And then. Maybe he's won the prize and therefore it is true but what really interests me about this is that it is the response of scientists. It Into has moved. Some of the leading voices in atheism secularism scientific secularism. Relying on the run because of this particular device. To face down. One time I think about 1015 years ago there was a lot of writing about. In the post. 911 climate there was a lot of atheist rice and people like. Richard Dawkins and the philosopher Daniel Dennett. Sam Harris is another long Christopher Hitchens very people who are writing very well received and well regarded books well regarded. All of them are on record as. Saying that psychics can't be telling the help the real that can't be genuine and why because nobody none of them is one Randi's prize that's that great proof to them it has nothing to do with scientific investigation it's stuff that single thing that convinced them that it isn't true and I was very struck by the immense power of a sort of a message so that's why I use the title of my book the book and for that if anybody is interested in the price itself I'm afraid there's not very much about it in the book. I just use as a result of a starting point for certain kinds of skepticism I know that when it went to a 1000000 dollars What occurred to me 1st is number one I don't believe Brandi has a 1000000 dollars to give away and a number 2 is that he's the ultimate judge of whether somebody wins the prizes or not and I can't imagine him ever admitting no matter what evidence came forward that if somebody had proven their point exactly that that's the. That's the beauty of it is that you know use that Jobson final obviousness of course he's the last person in the well who would accept it because if you did it would be embarrassing for them I don't actually agree about the money I think they did actually have financial arrangements in place I suspect with some kind of insurance. But I think all the people who were involved and I think that that at least that part of it would have been genuine you know the money would be. But certainly having followed the drama involved in other people for attempts to you know to get them seriously to engage with them in an attempt. One realizes how extremely difficult it would be . And I notice all the kind of people who applied for the prize a multitool. Time to people who would have a movie winning it I didn't you know there are a lot of people out somewhat So to me about their ability. And I think that the problem is how to do with a lot of the rather. Self-defeating people. So you know that's not an involvement with the truth. And the the skepticism that I encounter the debunking I should say you know it's always pretty much the same it say a world weary sigh from the debunker Oh no not this claim again I'll just have to set these these deluded people straight and then it's a haughty dismissal and because everyone in the world is is on a binge of insults now with social media and and feel they can get away with it. It's always harsh language and poking fun and just certainly beneath people who are genuine scientists you with thing. Yes because I do you mean I've always tried to find a space where one could actually talk about these things without leave out that. And of course America Blog is quite a challenge because you know you can't really sort of see yourself in the world you don't want to. But I actually I found on the whole that you know if you use a respectful time and. You discuss not a seriously. You know up to a point you could get I mean you get people coming on some of you can be vulgar abusive comments but on the whole they're a minority and I think you know is culpable here on a forum where you can have an exchange of views up to a point but it you know it actually does become quite difficult and there are people who are just too difficult to be managed. And then you have to block them and not cause these problems well then they proclaim victory already a when you block them and that's that sort of little gold star I suppose who does care about them because the you know distracting the conversation you can't really . You know by going to thing you know you know you're an American for them and somebody stands up and starts heckling and chaffing that you have to call it security you know there's no other way. You you know you you accept the idea that skepticism is a good thing genuine skepticism you're dealing with topics sigh topics psychic experiences e.s.p. And dreams and mediums and you know all of those fields have had their share of of fakes or people who are deluded or just plain wrong so it's a good thing to be able to we did out and try to figure out what the where and when the substance might exist right absolutely yes I mean you've got to be thought and that's really what interests me because you know I'm not interested in preaching to the converted which I'm afraid I do anyway a lot of the time I come. All the time engage people who are genuinely skeptical you know agnostic the kind of people who possibly could be interested in these things if one had a serious discussion with them so that you know my writing is not idea. And I think in that respect I differ from quite a lot of. Their goodness fields who I suspect really are just talking to the old man. Not to say that the audience doesn't appreciate the great probably Valda most of them come to me appreciate me but you know I think it's important to try to reach out to different constituents is absolutely not to try and put the material in front of people and say you know think about this. You know that's what I've been working on the last few years well you know we're seeing that now with the u.f.o. Topic the New York Times covered it in a big story in December of 2017 a lot of other media have followed and now you have mainstream scientists cautiously edging toward reading about it and learning about it whereas 2 years ago they they wouldn't touch it well that's actually I mean there will be a backlash yes even things go in. Sort of phases and what what what you tend to find particularly in my field I'm dealing with. Oh my goodness I'm even in psychics . Particularly experimental science e.s.p. And so what you tend to find some major claim. You reach is you get the old food but the guest so you can get sims in the mainstream media and he's written about comics it. Was very extensively and it makes an impact. What you will then find is sort of a backlash. And skeptics are quite serious for the way he writes and will descend on it dissected to do so. And refined to provide the opposite point of view. In order to reassure that their own constituency who also want to buy em on. There you then find that there are so 2 narrative side by side very often these days you find them online. So you're in the position you know if you're serious about Want to try to understand it you have to try and compare the 2 things one against the other incompatible arguments and that's exactly what I did in the run Peace Prize because I'm very interested in arguments from I'm interested in you know what the how how people explain these things you know what can be said about them. Scientists since the earliest days of you know the eighty's that the late ninety's century when they seriously started to sit down and do surveys to do analysis experiment. And to try to come to conclusions what they did with all the cues that they just came out endlessly with with the explanations contract nation how can we explain this let's tie this is this what you know that doesn't work let's try this like that doesn't work either and they want to go through a whole series of alternatives to see if they could find a normal explanation I'm sorry often they couldn't and that's why but the science of this has the distance because the long of what we now call current psychology I suppose side with that why it's still subsists why there's so much literature it's because the things that be documented in many many ways thousands of times explanations you can put forward and they don't really work when you go to the skeptics what the skeptics will do is come up with. Common sense ideas just to give an example. I think was a very crude example of the medium if I tell you what Robert a whole lot of moment I'm sorry to interrupt we need to go to a break right now when we come back we'll pick up that example you're going to use in the course of working on this book Randi's prize you read pretty much everything on science psychic research if you're up to date right here some of that in a moment here the Dixie Chicks take us into the break find out more about tonight's guest log on to coast to coast am dot com. To the next step. Then me. This story is called The Ugly Truth About Time sure if you think you've done your family a favor by buying a timeshare you name Hello I'm Chuck McDowell c.e.o. 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Our radio on your phone we are right here with you in the store or. Radio 1450 w.y.l. Am. From coast to coast and blood on the internet this is coast to coast am with George next now here's George there's a guy known to tune into coast to coast now and then Joe Walsh The song is wrecking ball We're talking with Robert McLuhan about his book Randy's prize what skeptics say about the paranormal why they're wrong and why it matters so topics like psychic abilities telepathy lucid dreams near death experiences out of body experiences things like that are they. Appropriate for legitimate scientific inquiry you know we have a saying around here we say it's the job of science and journalism to investigate Yun explained not to explain the uninvestigated in a moment Robert McLuhan's going to tell us about his journeys down this road and his encounters with skeptics and skepticism and debunkers will be right back. 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Did you know there are unpublished deeply discounted rates on flights out there airlines and other sites can't show these rights but fair Mark has access Fairmont has Altro low flight deals a best price guarantee and 247 support call $8513.00 save for these unpublished deals plus use code inside or $25.00 for an extra $25.00 off heads like a free checked bag or seat upgrade call and price out your next flight 80513 save or go to fare mart dot com. Robert McLuhan one of the topics you write about are mediums medium ships and legitimacy there before the break you were going to tell us about one particular case please continue. To talk in general actually about the kind of argument that some people make. I think those economists one making it up for I think you can use that one aside but that was another one which actually has a bit of resonance in the secular scientific of the on that which is that a nation of cold reading which is. Basically the medium is of picking up clues about about you from your. From the winds from the way you look in the general age will force them to start with them and them. Will put out 2 or 3 statement and if you respond or appear to respond to one of them the medium of that is on the like but if you can see that I mean General isn't going to shape a statement to your responses. But I think the point is that. What that explanation is out a lot of people will say well yes but of course that's it if you have a kind of people that have some needle preference to think in those terms but of course if you actually get from science if you can get some investigation you very quickly find that there will sorts of circumstances in which that that is the truth that has a lot of material on a medium called. The or no one Piper I think maybe from India to particular to American investment which is an American medium of food but the late 19th century I think there's another similar medium slightly later period it's called Gladys' Leonard. And both of those were was studied very intensively by. Scientists related to the society to Psychical Research here in London which on a number. Is an enormous amount of documented material and if you read it you find quickly good code reading could not possibly be an explanation for the kinds of things these people were able to say about the statement they were able to make about this is this if I'm so that's one of the things you write in your book as you said as you start working on this mammoth project you were amazed by how much legitimate scientific inquiry there had been on the subject Absolutely and I'm even still intrigued me because you know it's it's astonishing to me how much material you have to be used for anybody was interested that's actually something that I encourage people. If you're actually trying to look at the material. Themselves because that's you know the end of the day is that that's the end you re you going to write it incessantly about it that's what I did I actually I mean it's the things that. I was reading a lot of science. The time is what about 2030 years ago enough but I was also interested in the experience because I started to meditate and I would be countering that whole side of the Eastern. Philosophy and wisdom tradition from the psychic experience of that. Sort of an offshoot about so I became interested in these 2 streams of thinking at the same time actually trying to reconcile them and I spent quite a lot of time. Comparing the different elements and about how I actually came to write not these crimes. But I think one of the one of the really important things is to read the literature and you know try to try to work it out for yourself. One of the cases you write about the Columbus case this is one that James Randi investigated themselves or and I'm using air quotes around investigated because he wasn't actually able to investigate it but he did write about it right. Please tell us this give us the scenario. The Columbus case again as it may be familiar to some of your listeners that stuff. I think. Makes you sort of the fact that now but it was obviously in Columbus Ohio and it confirmed. The Tetons with 2 teens mean to you know rash across the child that was called you guys that typically occurring around. And it became. It became the center of control with the simply because it was picked up by the media and eventually the international media so it was stories being moved carrying a fall away as far away as India or. Russia I mean. It's this sort of thing attracts the attention of skeptics. Because it's something that they have to it's like it's a fire they have to put out just what happened to coincide with the founding of the cycle once it's cool now the c.s.i.s. The committee for all skeptical inquiry. They think they invited James Randi to go and check it out. This is one of the 1st big projects. I don't buy just time. That was a parasitologist was how to be looking at the case William Rowe. He specializes in specializing in these sorts of cases. And James Bond he went down that. But they wouldn't let him into the house because wrote it said on no account but James Mandy into the house because you know he just he had to do it the funking thing. So basically all he could do was really do what journalists do would be in these situations was just sort of hang around the fringes and just talk to everybody who could get hold of all of them who had an opinion. And then what Obviously there are lots of people around in situations like that you think you know when the little old saw and he picked up a map and published it but then that's very very little else to go on so you know in a case like that you get on the one hand and you get the inside story from the car psychologist Dean that. He's witnessed the phenomenon called up very soon if you spoke to all of the people who were involved in it all the witnesses and on the other hand you get the feel of the outside through the windows each stroke and view of the funky skeptic who really has very little to offer except from golf that the new endo and. Nothing very much detail but because you've got these 2 narratives then you know the 2 tribes can just pick up whichever one they want them along with it right when you were mentioning it's like a fire department I wrote down Randi as a fireman why is it necessary for psychopathy organization to send people out to respond as have some things on fire to just stamp out any flames they find anywhere Why yes well I you know I think this is this is this is the Hokies. I think it's it's a fence but. It's a sort of a man zine is he about superstition. It's an anxiety about stability. Social stability mental stability I can get affects people on a personal level but also on a social level like. You know you want the world to be. Something that's in the way that suits your own ideas and preconceptions. And I think you know that's the basis of what we're seeing today with you know in politics you see Mexicans right thought that they're different visions different ideas of how the world will to be and I think certainly from in the skeptic complex it's very strong views but the world should be terrific superstition this has been a convict a continuous trend in science to make Monte century and I think by now there's a few things that you know we have we have won something well the pressure of that is to say. A style of thinking the style of working science if you like which is we all superstitious ideas which is based entirely on critical thinking and this needs to be defended it'll cost Well it it strikes me at the core of this is religion as that that whether it really is a science against the soul that that's really what bothers them anything even remotely smelling remotely like religion has got to go. Yes I suppose I put religion to the brackets it was with the station because you know there's a sort of an overlap. I think it's the idea that the world is governed by force but you know an intelligent force that's beyond our control. Is antithetical to the view that the world is not governed by any forces except natural forces acting randomly and the only intelligence in the universe is our. I mean these are 2 individually easy to stream you call for ideas. You know we just happen to live in a time when there's a terrific for the confrontation between them. And this interests me because it feels that I investigate psychics and streams and e.s.p.n. So this is actually the frontline this is the sort of from a man's hand from down the middle of. The cause if if you can prove that u.s.p.s. Truth. You can no longer hold but the world is the way that the secular scientists you the world is true because Hogan and got his wife are desperately important to put out the science if there's anything that looks if it's getting traction that it might get public support that might influence public opinion say well actually there is this is true so now we've got to stop thinking that different things this would be a catastrophe. This is why I think this is why it is combative there's fiercely. You have so several really great cases in the book The Fox sisters another one and we'll get into the idea about confessions in a bit but. They the debunkers have to characterize children as polished con artists for these explanations to work that somehow these little kids are really good at folding their parents their family and investigators everyone around them basically any explanation that can you know that's consider fice will work for them to debunk it because it's amazing to me actually I I I try not to talk about poltergeists too much because I think it's the sort of thing people people new to the field it's not a good place to start because it just it's like completely crazy. The idea of object something to sort of move around a veteran of course and very forcefully sometimes them to stop. Causing this sort of chaos and mayhem. But as you say it's very often sons of the around small children who probably feature a myth that there's one other field that I'd like still thought was a fair old play that. It cost like memories but that stuff was supposed to die because I as you say. The notion that it's very often put forward a very natural law in many people's minds is what children are actually doing themselves it's the children who are playing tricks on the parents. I mean if you think. You know you observe that it's not to move a child is in some strange way the focus called for to stop them. Because the film seems to follow the child around. Then it's a very natural progression to night. The idea of some kind of psychic force is entirely alien in call in comprehensible to you then when you have no choice so I don't call blame people for stopping and in fact many many parents do that's where they saw me in the Columbus case Tina's mother was convinced dulcet doing it. But because she she was full of it it was and eventually often several hours that they were to she she realized conclusively that the 2 things were not related but nevertheless Hodgkins continued to believe it because we haven't seen this place found and then eventually they became convinced that it wasn't but you can't convince outsiders that children want to spokespeople of nothing actually see it for themselves. But yet but you're right the idea of a very small children can cause the basic scream event is not really time Uppal once you've examined the case in full unless you'd like to admit that maybe children have some psychic abilities that they don't know about or know don't know how to direct but that would be no more palatable than a poltergeist to some of these folks Yes Ok what we are talking about 2 slightly different things here is the part right and just elaborate a little yes poltergeist thought there are 2 views of probably guys one is that if it is actually. I'm always the spirit and more easygoing is the original chairman is. The sort of intruding the sort of. Yes identity. And that's the sort of basis for us from films like Poltergeist that isn't the sort of intrusion from from the with the old. But actually William wrote as I mentioned earlier who seriously investigated these things and what they called the last century. You know you started to notice that actually. The connection between the child and. The still haven't switched but she has to suggest . Some kind of repressed for some kind of power coming from the child a sort of a mental toll but he speculates it had to do with some kinds of psychological disturbing. And even significant but many of these children all. Going through some well they're going through puberty to start with which is you know was difficult but very often that you know they're involved in some kind of messed it situation might be abuse it might be. More mom getting difficulties with their parents you know extreme tensions. This wonderful girl in Scotland who had to move home very suddenly she's a younger. Person divide a twitch is slightly more unusual mostly they're in the teens but. In most cases you can find some kind of event in that that causes you to stop and that could be the coals of this activity so you have this sort of parallel view which will cool to give it. Official title the current spontaneous It's like a canary for the p.k. So that's what we quite often find in the literature. Yeah I think either option is really interesting but you would find the debunkers the don't give credence to either one Yes No exactly and I think that's inexcusable and. Like I have I have mages that's got to fix the weak in this particular area. That they tend to quote comes or is saying listen think about cultic eyes things as it gets into. The media want to get all kinds of people making stuff up making this session and moving it very hard. You know if you do decide what's more than. Skeptics who even would point to the. Explain the full concession and so on without really having them and. I think about again not to bring it back to your fellows but it's a good example is that you know Project Blue Book which is an American t.v. Show now so it's back in the news the whole the whole reason for that project existing was to explain things away so they would come up with absolutely preposterous explanations for things that many witnesses had seen swamp gas comes to mind and in the end result is that the public has discussed both for the government and for the scientists involved because they know what they've seen as it doesn't the explanation doesn't work I tell you what I. Talk too long there so we're going into a break in a moment though I want to ask you about a couple of specific cases that you cover in your book and also the general question about whether or not science needs to have some ability. Because of how often they've been wrong about stuff so we'll be right back we're talking with Robert McLuhan about his book on Randi's prize and we're going into the break with the Black Crowes. Join the coast to coast am Facebook page with thousands of members it's great for show updates and connecting with other fans go to facebook dot com slash coast to coast am and click the like button. 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