Catherine t. Macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Park foundation, dedicated to heightening Public Awareness of critical issues. The kohlberg foundation. Barbara g. Fleischman. And by our sole corporate sponsor, mutual of america, designing customized individual and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement company. Welcome. This just in from the prophetic Andy Borowitz, with midterm elections a few days away, a new poll indicates that billionaires are likely to retain control of the United States government. Proxy candidates of billionaires are likely to win 98 of next tuesdays races, with the remaining 2 leaning billionaire. Now Andy Borowitz is one of our leading humorists, and i figured he was joking. But now im not so sure. And neither, id guess, is United States senator Bernie Sanders. Because a couple of weeks ago, Bernie Sanders was in richmond, california, a small city of just over 100,000 in the bay area of san francisco. He was speaking out against the energy giant chevron and the big money its spending to influence the local elections there. And if chevron can roll over you, they and their buddies will roll over every community in america. If you can stand up and beat them with all of their money, youre going to give hope to people all over america that we can control our destinies. Chevrons the fortune 500 company that has a big refinery in richmond and acts like it owns the place. After that refinery erupted in fire two years ago, the city, led by mayor gayle mclaughlin, sued chevron for what it alleges is a long history of negligence. Chevrons fighting back, spending an incredible 3 million plus to beat mclaughlin and her allies and replace them with a more pliable city council that will protect the oil companys interests. All that cash for one small election, but its just part of a spending frenzy of perhaps 4 billion all across the country, making this the most expensive midterms in history. Money unleashed by a series of Supreme Court decisions allowing millionaires and billionaires to drown out the voice of anyone who tries to speak against them. And thats why Bernie Sanders is with me now. Hes not a democrat. Hes not a republican. Hes an independent in his Second Senate term, after 16 years in the house of representatives, and eight as the mayor of burlington, vermont. Welcome back. Great to be with you. Its a long way from burlington, vermont, to richmond, california. And theres a lot of other places you couldve been going. Why did you go there . Because it disgusts me and angers me to see a huge, Multinational Corporation like chevron try to destroy a local government, which is standing up for the working people and standing up for the environment. The idea that just because they have unlimited sums of money, they can toss aside and defeat people who are trying to do the right thing. Its not what america is supposed to be about and it upset me very much. You were very upset. Let me play you another excerpt from the speech. Unlimited sums of money from one of the Largest Corporation in america who says, how dare you ordinary people, working class people, people of color, young people, how dare you think you have a right to run your City Government . Who do you think you are . Were going to teach you a lesson. Were going to tell you who owns this community, who controls this community. And thats what this fight is about here in richmond. And you damn well better win that fight. So what is the fight . The fight is for the future of democracy in america. What youre seeing in richmond is one small part of whats going on in this country today, bill. And let me just say this. If people think the situation is bad now, and it is horrendous, the chairman of the Republican Party now, he wants to take it further. He thinks Citizens United did not go far enough. So the Koch Brothers and he want to eliminate all Campaign Finance legislation, all regulations, and have a situation where the billionaires will say to somebody, you want to run for governor of california . Heres a check of a half a billion dollars. You work for me. No longer independent expenditures, we own you completely. I read one account that says chevron is spending over 150 for every, quote, likely voter. What do they get back for their investment . Well, what theyre going to get back, clearly, is a city council which will be less attentive to the Environmental Needs of that community. They are the largest employer. They have as youve mentioned a moment ago, there was a terrible fire there a couple of years ago. People there are very concerned about the environmental impacts of chevron, and they will get a much more docile city council if they win. Chevron would tell you theyre just protecting those interests they have there. And that they will also tell you that they create jobs and pay taxes there for public services. Do they create jobs . Of course they create jobs. But the point is, corporations all over this country create jobs. But they cannot run and dominate our democracy. I wager that just about everybody watching this show knows what you and i think about this issue. And yet, while youre speaking and im reporting, those folks are out there creating a reality on the ground with their money. And things get worse. Things are getting worse. You know, when you look at this campaign, and you realize the enormously serious issues this country faces, right, we got a collapsing middle class. We have more wealth and income inequality today than weve had since the 1920s. We have all of these enormous issues. And what big money can do is put an unbelievable amount of tv and radio ads out there to deflect attention from the real issues facing the American People. Well, thats interesting. Because, you know, ive seen you quite recently on television. Its always the same questions and always the same five headlines. Whats the story that the Corporate Press is not letting you tell . Oh, my god. You see, this is the issue. I mean, ive been on a million of these shows. They say, heres the story of the day. What do you think about the secret service . What do you think about this . What do you think about ebola . All of those issues are important. But the issues that impact ordinary people, is theyre asking why, despite all of the productivity, people are working longer hours for lower wages. Have we had that discussion, bill . Have you ever heard anybody talking about it . Theyre asking how come weve had this unfettered freetrade policies that have resulted in the loss of millions of goodpaying jobs and you got both parties still saying, well, thats pretty good. And this issue of income and wealth inequality, wow. 1 owning 37 of the wealth in america. Bottom 60 owning 1. 7 . One family, the Walton Family of walmart, owning more wealth than the bottom 40 . Do you think we should be talking about that issue . You cant get the discussion going on tv. Why . Because its not in the interest of the corporations who own the networks to actually be educating the American People so that we are debating the real issues. Its much better to deflect attention away from those issues and get into the story of the day. There was some guy who was a football fan who walked halfway across the country. Boy, thats a really big story. Or, Chris Christie yelled at somebody. History will certainly remember this as one of the important issues of the 21st century. This, to me, is this fundamental question facing Bernie Sanders. How do you get your message directly to those who need it most . And you know who they are. Theyre conservative working people, who dont realize that their party has been sold all these years to the financial and business interests that are rigging the rules against them. How do you reach those people . Well, believe me, i wish i had the magic answer. Youre asking exactly the right question. There are parts of this country, bill, where the only information people get is on radio. You got rush limbaugh. 95 of talk radio is extreme right wing. You got fox television, which does an extraordinary job of deflecting attention away from the real issues. The idea that you have these workingclass people who are voting for candidates who refuse to raise the minimum wage, who refuse to provide health care for their kids, who want to send their jobs to china, who want to give tax breaks to corporations, it blows my mind. And that is the issue that we have to figure out. But is there no way to make a concerted effort to reach out to conservative working people, people who share, i think, a populous bias in behalf of government by, and for the people. Wouldnt you bolster your credentials as someone willing to really shake things up, get beyond this distracting tedium of left and right and horse race mentalities that youre asked about all the time on the radio. Is there a way to make a campaign out of that . This is something that im thinking about hard. When they Ask Tea Party people, and ive seen some of the polls, do you think we should cut Social Security . You know what they say overwhelmingly . No. Should you cut medicare . No. Tea party workingclass people will be shocked to know that the people who founded the tea party, the Koch Brothers, want to eliminate Social Security, medicare, the concept of minimum wage. In other words, the ideology of the Koch Brothers, who put the initial money in to found the tea party, is very different from the average, workingclass person. And youre saying how do we reach out to get to work in coalition with those folks is something that we have got to do. I heard morning joe ask you if youre going to run for president. And youve been asked that everywhere. And i dont want to beat a dead horse. I particularly dont want to beat a dead dark horse. But if you were to do it, and im not going to play games with you about saying, are you, or are you not . If you were to do it, would you run as a democrat or an independent . I havent resolved that yet. There are advantages and disadvantages of both. There is strong contempt now for both the democratic and republican parties. All of the elections that i have won in vermont have been as an independent. So, that speaks to running as an independent. The problem is that the deck is really stacked against independents. You would have to spend an enormous amount of time, money, energy just getting on the damn ballot in 50 states in this country. And then, the media would probably marginalize you. And you may not be able to get into some of the debates. Thats what im kind of weighing. But the main issue that im trying to figure out, and im going around the country talking to people, is there support for a candidacy which is really prepared to take on the billionaire class . Is it, in fact, possible to do what you just said . Its easy to talk about, lets reach out to workingclass tea party people. Can you do it . How do you do it . How do you get the resources to do it . How do you build the Grassroots Organization . This is what i do believe from the bottom of my heart. In this election coming up right now, the estimate is that 60 of the people are not going to vote, 60 . Midterm election . Yes. 80 of lowincome, working people are not going to vote. Bill, what i am absolutely sure of is that we do not change this country unless there is a political revolution, there is a radical change in consciousness where working people are not only voting, theyre participating in the political process, they understand how important politics and government is for the future of this country and for their kids. So, whats your strategy . I mean the strategy i know you care about, i know you want to make a difference. But i know the system is against your making a difference. You have to bring people together who may not agree on every issue, but who understand that the middle class is collapsing and we are moving toward an oligarchic form of society, where the billionaires will control the economy and the political life of this country. So, that means reaching out to people from different walks of life and say, you got to overcome this difference and that difference. So, i think what we have to do, bill, is lay out an agenda which says we are going to take on the billionaire class. You know what . Were going to overturn Citizens United. Were going to move to public funding of elections so these guys dont buy elections. Are you going to ask them to join a third party . Thats a question we have its a difficult question. Its a difficult question. You know, i have, thats been my life, as an independent. And thats one im wrestling with, bill. But given, i, the answer is i just dont know. But what i do know is you need a strong Progressive Agenda which says, you know, why is it that in a country like denmark, everybody has health care as a right . Why is it that Higher Education is free . Why is it they have a great childcare system . Why is it that theyre leading the world in terms of Environmental Protection and fighting Global Warming . Can we do that in this country . The answer is we can. But youre not going to do it when 60 of the people dont vote in an off president ial election. How do you make the hillary wing of the Democratic PartyPay Attention to the power of a populist message unless youre in the debates in 2016, when most of the public is paying attention to political messages . This has been my political experience. When you rally the grassroots of the country or the city or of your state, when people begin to stand up and say, enough is enough. We want to do well by our kids. We want to protect the environment. We believe we should join the rest of the world in terms of having health care for all, singlepayer health care for all, et cetera, et cetera. When people begin to move, the people on top will follow them. So, whether its hillary or anybody else, what we have got to do is mobilize the American People in a way that we have not seen in recent history around a Progressive Agenda. Bill, every poll that i have seen, when they ask the American People, what is the most important issue that youre concerned about . You know what they say . Jobs and the economy. How come we are not investing heavily in rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. 1 trillion invested in rebuilding roads, bridges, water systems, rail creates 13 million decentpaying jobs. You know what . The American People want us to do that. They want us to raise the minimum wage. So, you need a very strong agenda. You need a mechanism. And youve asked a hard question. Easier to say than to do, to rally people around that agenda. And once you do that, things will take care of itself. This is what barack obama did in 2008. He asked people to take over the Democratic Party, progressives and populists, everyday people that you describe in your speech out in richmond. He asked those people to come in and, elect me and well do just exactly what Bernie Sanders would do if he were president. Hasnt happened. I have lot of respect for barack obama. But, his biggest mistake is that, after running a Brilliant Campaign in 2008, where millions of people in fact were galvanized, young people, people of color came out and said, hey, were going to make some real change. The day after the election he said, okay, thank you very much. Now im going to work inside the beltway and were going to start negotiating with republicans and all that stuff. The simple truth is, in my view, nothing gets done unless millions and millions of people will demand it. Politics is 365 days a year. If not just voting . Exactly. And anyone, you can have the best person in the world as president of the United States, that person will accomplish nothing unless millions of people are standing behind him or her. Just an example, bill, everybody, all the young people in this country are worried about student debt. The fact that hundreds of thousands of young people cant even afford to go to college. You have a million people, a million young people marching on washington saying, theres a vote coming up. And if you vote the wrong way, we know who you are. We actually are paying attention. You arent going to get reelected. We will lower the cost of college substantially and deal with the student debt crisis. It will not happen. It will not happen unless millions of people are activated. The practical issue is how do you get millions of people mobilized if in fact both parties are on the side of money . You know, youre making the right argument, i know, and people are responding. But they dont know what to do. If they do what they did with barack obama and come out for the Democratic Party, they stand to get betrayed again. If the independent party, third party is difficult to organize and get on the ballot, what do they do . Theyre frustrated. You know, even your own wife says she gets depressed when she hears you make another speech like you did in richmond. And people write me and say, im depressed watching your show because i dont know what to do. Number one, we are, in fact, a very, very difficult moment. But lets also look back on history. Bill, if you and i were chatting here 30 years ago and we would say, you said to me, you know, i think that the United States, people of our country are going to overcome the deep racism in this country and elect an african american. You said that 30 years ago, people would say, bill, youre crazy. Thatll never happen. 30 years ago we had two women in the United States senate. Today we have 20 and that number is certainly going to go up. In terms of gay rights. If you and i were sitting here ten years ago and you were to say to me, bernie, you know, i think in conservative states in 2014, theyre going to be passing gay marriage. Would you have dreamed of that ten years ago . You wouldnt have. I would not have, okay . Right now, were engaged in a huge fight. It is the economic struggle against the billionaire class who wants it all. They want to kill Social Security, medicare, medicaid, the whole thing. Can we beat them . We can. Now, heres some good news. I know, in the middle of all the bad news. Ill never forget this as long as i live. I was elected mayor of burlington in 1981. I made promises to the people of my city. Two years later, bill, we doubled, almost doubled voter turnout. Hows that . And you know why . Because i kept my word and people said, you know what . He is making a difference. He didnt lie to us. So if you have leadership which delivers, or at least says, Franklin Delano roosevelt, remember what he said . He said, these are the economic royalists. They hate my guts and i welcome their hatred because im on your side. Thats the kind of policy and language we need. I apologize for being tedious but youre right, you know . We a lot of changes. Black rights, womens rights, gay rights. But here in new york, we have a governor whos been really good on gay rights and hes a handmaiden of wall street. I mean, hillary clinton, chuck schumer, their constituency is wall street. So people who want to come out and do what you want to do, are led by people who say, well, well go only so far because our loyalty remains to money. Okay, yes. The only point, there is a difference between social issues and the economic issues. And i will not deny for one moment that taking on the ruling class of this country and the billionaire class, its tough stuff. It is tough stuff. So i dont have any magical solutions. But what i do know is that if we do not create an economy that works for ordinary people, if we do not end the fact that 95 of all new income now goes to the top 1 . Weve got to end it, and the only way i know to do that is to rally ordinary people around the Progressive Agenda. So our job is to create a 50 state, Grassroots Movement around a Progressive Agenda. And then would the purpose be, as the tea partys purpose was to take over the Republican Party, would the purpose be to take over the Democratic Party . That is certainly one of the options. I mean, the options are to because i dont see how you could do it just as an independent outside, stiffarmed by both parties, ignored by the press. Well, lets be very clear. Now, the tea party has been enormously successful. Enormously successful. Theyve taken kind of a center right party and made it a right wing extremist party. If you had a Grassroots Movement, if you had the trade union people, if you had the environmental community, the Womens Community and ordinary working class people standing up, can you take the Democratic Party and make it into a Progressive Party . I think theres a chance you can. But to do that, you have to have some way to respond to neutralize Citizens United. Is there a form of, and i know peoples eyes go dead when i say Campaign Finance reform, but is there an answer to Citizens United that you think is achievable . Well, peoples eyes should not go dead when you talk about Campaign Finance reform because if theyre concerned about any issue, theyve got to be concerned about Campaign Finance. Give you an example. State of vermont, we have our candidate for Lieutenant Governor right now getting public funding running for election. Its not a huge sum of money, but hes running a credible campaign. So i think the alternative has got to be to do everything that we can to overturn Citizens United. But move to a public funding of elections. States can do some of that. Theres a recent poll. More than half of all people in this country do not believe the American Dream is real. 59 of the people polled in june agreed, quote, the American Dream has become impossible for most of us to achieve. And more and more americans believe, quote, theres not much opportunity to get ahead. A living wage, retirement security, the opportunity for your children to get ahead are increasingly out of reach. Why arent people furious about this . I would say they are furious and republicans take that anger and channel it against people who are even worse off than working class people. And i think also people dont see an option, theyve kind of given up in seeing, yeah, im working longer hours for lower wages. Yeah, my kid cant afford to go to college. Yeah, my aunt does not have any health insurance. What can i do about it . And also there has not been, because of media, because of weak politics on the part of the Democratic Party, the kind of focus that we need to say, you know where the problem is . These guys are getting richer and richer. Youre getting poorer and poorer. Have you heard that kind of discussion . Have you heard that type of focus . I dont think so. Whats wrong, whats gone wrong with the Democratic Party . In one answer id say money. Time after time we see a hesitancy on the part of the Democratic Party to stand up to the billionaire class because you cant do that when youre out hustling campaign contributions. So whether the issues are disastrous trade policy, lowering the cost of prescription drugs, all of these special interests have enormous power and influence to the Democratic Party. Instead of having Public Meetings with people, you have Democratic Candidates running all over the place, trying to raise money to keep up with the Koch Brothers. So i would say, you know, money is corrupting, certainly has taken over the Republican Party, has significantly impacted the democrats. How do we get money out of politics . Well, first thing is we need a massive Grassroots Movement to have state after state, and we have, i think, 16 of them already onboard saying, we support a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United. I think theres Something Like 500 communities around america saying the same thing. Then when we do that, we move to public funding of elections. You want to run . I will not be able to outspend you. Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you for being with me. Great to be here. At our website, billmoyers. Com, theres a web exclusive interview with gayle mclaughlin, the mayor of richmond, california, where chevron is spending those millions trying to defeat her and other progressive candidates. And we have a guide to everything you need to know to cast your ballot on tuesday. And what to do if someone tries to keep you from exercising your right. Thats all at billmoyers. Com. Ill see you there and ill see you here, next time. Announcer funding is provided by anne gumowitz, encouraging the renewal of democracy. Carnegie corporation of new york, supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement and the advancement of International Peace and security at carnegie. Org. The ford foundation, working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide. The herb alpert foundation, supporting organizations Whose Mission is to promote compassion and creativity in our society. The john d. And catherine t. Macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Park foundation, dedicated to heightening Public Awareness of critical issues. The kohlberg foundation. Barbara g. Fleischman. And by our sole corporate sponsor, mutual of america, designing customized individual and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement company. Coming up is it ethical for terminally ill patients to end their lives . Forprofit companies with social goals they say are as important as maximizing profit. And bob faw on a white writer who listens to native americans and says their spirituality helps him overcome the guilt he feels from the countrys treatment of its original inhabitants. 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