And creativity in our society. The john d. And catherine t. Macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Park foundation, dedicated to heightening Public Awareness of critical issues. The kohlberg foundation. Barbara g. Fleischman. And by our sole corporate sponsor, mutual of america, designing customized individual and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement company. Welcome. To you. And welcome to my guest, king lear. King lear, that is, as portrayed by the actor, john lithgow, who grew the beard for the role and has been frightening our neighbors here in new york city merely by walking down the street at twilights last gleaming, headed to central park, where under the stars, he storms and stalks and strides the stage as shakespeares aging, raging old tyrant, descending into dementia, at war with time, his daughters and himself. There is no more difficult role in the theater, and no play more relevant to the moment, anytime and anywhere its performed. With all the carnage and violence around us in the world, king lear mirrors the folly of reckless leadership, the arrogance of power, and the depth of human anguish. Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks rage blow you cataracts and hurricanoes, spout till you have drenchd our steeples, drownd the cocks you sulphurous and thoughtexecuting fires, vauntcouriers to oakcleaving thunder bolts, singe this white head the artistic director of new yorks public theater, oskar eustis, says the current revival of interest in lear comes perhaps because the possibility of genuine chaos, real cannibalizing barbarism, is closer to the surface than we can possibly imagine. And he asks, could the popularity of lear be the highculture analog to the popularity of game of thrones and the walking dead on television . Ill put that question to king lear himself, my friend and neighbor john lithgow. He is a constant and notable presence on stage, television and in the movies, a twotime oscar nominee, multiple tony and emmy winner, the author of books for kids, a memoir about acting and editor of a collection of poetry. His delightful and moving new film, love is strange, opens august 22nd. John, welcome. Thank you, bill. Looking every inch the king. Yes, yes, i have my king lear beard for you today. So what do you think . Why is there such interest again in him . Is he our contemporary . I think youre quite right. I mean, i find the process of reading the front page of the New York Times every day deeply unsettling. Ive almost stopped doing it, its so upsetting. And i get on stage and speak those lines. I mean, to me, the most pointed line in the whole play is, i have taen too little care of this. You know, we live fairly comfortable lives. And everyday youre reminded of the astonishing misery in the rest of the world. Are you aware that you, lear, are speaking to our times . It speaks to all times. I mean, its a play about big, big elemental things. Growing old, losing your viability, losing your mind, terrible disruptions and dysfunction between family members. Bringing down devastation on your own life by your own folly and your own bad mistakes and your own vanity. These are all huge ideas and they always resonate. They resonated for shakespeare, which is why he wrote it. I dont think there is a play which is so nakedly painful. Its just in his late scenes, when he says, howl, imagine a line that is four words howl, howl, howl, howl there was theres never been such a gutwrenchingry of anguish. Chaos has descended on this poor man and has spread out to his whole world. And its almost a ritual that shakespeare takes us through showing us devastation and then restoring order and giving us hope. I mean, otherwise, its just you cant bear the hopelessness, unless there is some sort of redemption. Where do you find hope in lear . He has learned his own folly. Hes regained his love for his daughter cordelia. Whom he had disinherited disinherit early in the first act. And turned on her savagely for the most petulant and vain reasons. Hes learned all about himself. Even as hes lost his mind, hes gained a sense of himself. That i think is the story that shakespeares telling. When we talk about lear, where it fits in our time we are in a very strange moment. I look around and i you know, 50 of the bigbudget entertainment you are seeing these days is dystopian. This is the era of hunger games and blasted landscapes and walking dead. The zombie is the new, sort of, archetype of our times. Like, the avatar of our time is a zombie. I mean, how horrific is that . And somehow or other weve entered weve internalized that. Weve made that our entertainment. I think one thing thats drawing people to king lear these days, shakespeare is a great philosopher. He puts some sort of order into our lends some order to our chaotic thinking. And i think thats what, thats why everybodys flocking to lear as they have for tee or four productions in the last year. There are no seats at the performances. No, you cant get in. Its very interesting. I mean, one thing, the most gratifying thing that everybody is telling us was they come back after seeing this show is they talk about the clarity of our production. They keep using the word, its so clear. They say, i feel like im hearing those words for the first time. There is, i will tell you, a wonderful sort of sausagemaking story from rehearsal. Theres a beautiful scene and speech by king lear which every actor loves cause its so beautiful. And its so, kind of, tremulous with sentiment. When lear says to cordelia, no, no lets away to prison. We two will sing like birds in a cage. When thou dost ask me blessing, ill kneel down, and ask of thee forgiveness. And so well live, and pray, and sing, and tell old tales, and laugh at gilded butterflies, and hear poor rogues talk of court news. And well talk with them too, who loses and who wins. Whos in, whos out. And take upons the mystery of things, as if we were gods spies. Now every actor loves to speak that speech. And as rehearsals went by, i was doing it in my best feelgoodian, plummy style. And dan sullivan, our fantastic director, he approached me as rehearsal began one morning and said, you know, i was thinking about this scene last night. Lear is still crazy, you know . And it was a transformative moment. The scene suddenly became very ironic, deeply painful. You saw lear through cordelias eyes. Shes lost him. And this is still hes so relieved and happy to have her back again. And to have her forgiveness. But hes still unmoored. So the speech is, no, no lets away to prison, you and i, we two alone will sing like rds i the cage, when thou dost ask me blessing, ill kneel down, and ask of thee forgiveness. So well live, and pray, and sing, and tell old tale you know, hes mad. This its mad to think youre going to have a beautiful, happy, forgiven life insi prison walls alone with your daughter. Whats so interesting about that is that, when you were growing up, your father directed shakespearian festivals in ohio and you told once that, when you were a child, shakespeare just washed over you like a warm bath. Uhhuh. And yet here you are, having become this figure, one of the most egomaniacal, one of the most vengeful men in literature. Its hard for me to understand how, even with a great actor, how you become something you really arent. Well, first of all, i feel very protective of king lear. You just talked very harshly about him. Im very forgiving of him because i do believe, even as the play begins, hes already lost something. Hes already in serious trouble. Age has happened to him. And my heart goes out to him. So i dont think of him as an egomaniacal, tyrannical monster. Hes a man with deep flaws, of course. But there again, and with Dan Sullivans guidance, you do get a sense of what a beloved man he has been. What a big heart he has. On his very first entrance, you see him as someone whom everybody loved, who just makes a horrendous mistake. He becomes victimized by his own vanity. I love that particular duality. I love any role in which a character turns out not to be what you expected him to be. To me, all the great drama comes from good people doing bad things and bad people doing good things. The contradictions in all of us. A beautiful line from hamlet, i am myself indifferent honest, and yet i could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had never borne me. This is why shakespeares is arguably the greatest playwright, is he just had this perception of people that we are all flawed. Theres goodness in all of us and theres badness in all of us. And the intermingling, the conflict between those two is where drama comes in. Yeah, yeah. I was watching that first act as a spectator, and then i suddenly became a father, because, when watching it, because when he does this senseless thing, hes he thinks hes been insulted because cordelia wont say how much she loves him. What can you say to draw a third more opulent than your sisters . Speak. Nothing, my lord. Nothing nothing. Nothing will come of nothing. And he yeah. Flits her. When you wonder how many times have you as a father broken the heart of somebody who loves you but cant tell you . Oh, i think parenthood is so complicated. Ive made such mistakes as a parent. I have so many regrets. And im you know, im a good enough father. Right. But yeah, i mean, its he makes two mistakes. He rejects cordelia out of hand for being honest. And he embraces goneril and regan for being hypocritical. His other two you know . Daughters. Yeah. Yeah. And he only discovers later that they havent exactly lied to him. I want to be fair to them too, as in, in fact, i think shakespeare is. But he has entered that stage in his life when hes misperceiving things. And he has to go through this agonizing process of gaining selfknowledge. The moment i always remember about king lear is when hes when the king is on the heath with gloucester and gloucesters blind and lear says nonetheless, you see the world. And gloucester says, i see it feelingly. And lear says, what, art mad . A man may see how this world goes with no eyes. Look with thine ears. I could go on of course. But but, i see it feelingly, is another beautiful shakespearean pnother beautiful shakespearean and i wonder why does it take the blind to see the truth . Well, thats a wonderful theme running all through the play. There are many, many references to early on his first rage at goneril he says, old fond eyes beweep this cause again, ill pluck ye out and cast you, with the water that you lose to temper clay. If you listen carefully, youll hear eyes and sight and seeing and seeing feelingly and needing no eyes to see the truth. That is, in a sense, lear himself begins to see things in a way that has nothing to do with actual sight. Its perception. Do you think he changes as a character oh through the story . Oh, vastly. The interesting thing is he becomes more and more out of touch. He becomes madder. You see someone gradually going mad and his madness takes many forms. Early on, its the madness of sheer anger, irrational anger. When he gets out onto that heath and he sees poor tom, the naked bgar, in my mind, its like an electric jolt sort of takes him into a new kind of madness. When he says, why, thou wert better in thy grave than to answer with thy uncovered body this extremity of the skies. Is man no more than this . Consider him well. Thou owest the worm no silk, the beast no hide, the sheep no wool, the cat no perfume. Heres three ons are sophisticated thou art the thing itself unaccommodated man is no more but such a poor bare forked animal as thou art. And he immediately starts to rip off all of his clothes. Off, off, you lendings come unbutton here. Thats another stage of his madness, at which point he thinks even the clothes we wear are a lie. As were covering something up with them. Im going to be naked. Im going to face nature as a natural man. Im going to reject everything that smacks of deceit and hypocrisy. This is madness. But its also perception. Its also truth that he never had access to before. And thats the profundity of the play. On your New York Times blog, which is a rich source of your own personal insight as well as to understandings of the play, i read this message you got from a fan in denver. And he says, i wish you had quoted the ensuing lines which remain so appallingly timely take physic, pomp. you do it. I cant. Poor naked wretches, wheresoer you are, that bide the pelting of this pitiless storm, how shall your houseless heads and unfed sides, your loopd and windowd raggedness, defend you from seasons such as these . I have taen too little care of this take physic, pomp, expose thyself to feel what wretches feel, that thou mayst shake the superflux to them, and show the heavens more just. And at just that moment, poor tom emerges from the hovel. And lear snaps. He goes a lot madder than he all ready is. And he begins to see the world with a kind of blinding clarity in madness. That is the moment where lear suddenly feels the suffering of the poor. Thats his moment of perceiving the horrors of inequality, to wrench us into a very contemporary debate. Lear suddenly sees the difference between a king and a beggar, and sees the injustice of that. And isnt there a sense of awareness on his part that that hes ruled this kingdom without really regard for those he could not see, or for whom of course he could not feel. Precisely. Which to wrench it, as you say, in contemporary terms often strikes me as the prevailing ethos of washington. I dont want to be political at this. So but your friend in denver gets it. Your fan in denver gets it. He says, from the rio grande to detroit, and from gaza to the ganges, lines to ponder just now. Yeah, he he gets it. He gets it. And i feel very lucky to be in a play that is provoking that kind of a response. Theres this very lively discussion going on in london as we speak about whether lear is the embodiment of agerelated dementia, the very phenomenon that we moderns are struggling with in the 21st century never before, as never before. The implications of long life, the shame, the embarrassment, the anger of helplessness, as you know, alzheimers is a wrecking ball. Now this could be our inevitable instinct to read into shakespeare what we want to see there as opposed to what he intended there. But there is this moment in the play when lear cries out, who is it that can tell me who i am . Uhhuh. And i remember that in my mother. I remember that in others. Loved people we loved who made this passage. Does this comes to you as you perform . Oh yes. I mean, all of us whove gone past the age of 60, weve seen our parents grow old, if were lucky, if we havent lost them young. And, you see them lose capacities. And its extraordinarily painful. I think shakespeares depiction of dementia in the very latest, one of his last scenes, when he recognizes cordelia. I fear i am not in my perfect mind. Methinks i should know you, and know this man. Yet i am doubtful for i am mainly ignorant what place this is. And all my skills remembers not5 these garments. Nor i know not where i did lodge last night. Do not laugh at me, for, as i am a man, i think this lady to be my child cordelia. And so i am, i am. Now, that is an exquisite portrait of an old man struggling with dementia, thinking he knows his own daughter. I mean, what an amazing piece of playwriting 400 years ago. I mean, shakespeare surely saw demented old men and women struggling to make sense of the world. And he just portrays it so accurately. Do you fear the withering of your powers . Of course. You try to learn this par no, no, thanks. Theres a line i wont cross. But it no, its, you know, its an this is an interesting moment. Ive just entered into that window where you can play lear when youre old enough to play him and youre young enough to play him. cause you have to have the strength to play the part and yet you have to have some sense of impending old age. Were you circling lear all these years . I always thought about lear because youre always asked, is there some role that you want to eventually play . And the only answer i ever had to that was king lear, which is the obvious. Its kind of the big Mount Everest role. So ive thought about it. And its, you know, you cant read those speeches without being enormously moved and just wanting to play that part. Ive rarely been in a play where ive been so eager to get on to the next scene. One scene ends and i think, now i get to do that. You know, its great. I think the most sublime scene is that one that i quoted to you of him recognizing cordelia. I really cant think of another thing onstage, which is as deeply moving as that. And it affects me every single night. John, king lear, thank you for being with me. Such a pleasure, bill, as always. At our website, billmoyers. Com, john lithgow on his new film love is strange, and more of our conversation about shakespeare and king lear. Thats at billmoyers. Com. Ill see you there and see you thats at billmoyers. Com. Ill see you there and see you here next time. Captions by vitac www. Vitac. Com dont wait a week to get more moyers. Visit his blog to get videos and essay features. Funding is provided by ann g gumowitz, encouraging the renewal of democracy. Carnegie corporation of new york. Supporting education, democratic engagement and the advancement of International Peace and security. At carnegie. Org. The ford foundation. Working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide. The herbal period of time foundation. Whose mission is to promote come fashion and creativity in our society. The john d. And kathryn t. Macarthur foundation. Committed to a more just, verdant and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Dedicated to heightening Public Awareness of critical issues. The culpert foundation. Barbara g. Fleischmann. And mutual of america, designing customized and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement compan welcome to first. I Michelle Colston with shirley min and mark eichmann. A statementt out saying the bridge can reopen this month. We look at the engineering used to do that and to keep it standing in the future. A downward trend of breastfeeding in delaware . Or just a blip . And the passion of the women that show us how they fit together as part of our first experience. Your public media news magazine starts right now. Construction crews have been working around the clock on the states longest bridge. You guessed it. Im talking