Transcripts For WHYY Charlie Rose 20141114

Approach. And churchill wanted to push it forward. And he saw the englishspeaking peoples as away of insurancing that that was guaranteed. Rose also this evening, a new film called foxcatcher starring steve carell, vanessa redgrave, Channing Tatum and dected by ben the bennett pillar. Hi seen capot, and obviously steve said that piece of work speaks for itself. And i knew i wanted to work with himment and then we started just talking about the story. And i done think he had a script then. And so i wept and rezferpd the characters and i hadnt i didnt have any knowledge of the story beforehand. And really just fell in love with the idea of this world that i dont think nips seen before in film. In a deep way. Rose we conclude with the essayist Daphne Merkin, her book is you will cad the famed lunches. Ef retime i start an essay again, i think hear we go again. I think a mixture of skin, placing and some interesting idea about the about the person in that in setting the scene. Like some perception you have that hasnt been out there. Rose Boris Johnson, steve carell, vanessa redgrave, Channing Tatum, director Bennett Miller and essayist Daphne Merkin when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Boris Johnson is here. He is, as you know, the mayor of london. He has served in that role since 2008. This summer he announced his intention to stand for election to the United Kingdom parliament in the 2015 general elections. A lot of people read a lot into that. His latest book is about winston churchill. It is called the churchill factor how one manmade history the wall street journal reports there is a long history of ambitious burn shall their leadership credentials from profiles in courage to the audacityofhope that is from john f. Kennedy to barack obama. The churchill book is more like jfks than obama. It drops aical asal hint about candidacy. All from the wall street journal. He would deny it all. Im pleased to have boris general son back at this table. Its a great honor to be back. Rose so why did you write this then . I wrote it. Rose how many books are there on churchill. Probably about a hundred a year. But what the churchill family and the churchill estate said was they had the 50th anniversary of his death coming up next year. And they genuinely felt that although there is a huge weight of scholarship about churchill, there wasnt a book that tried to bring it together into argue again to a new generation the churchill was the great man that i think he was and the people of my generation think he was. I think the younger generation, he is receding a bit. Hes fading. Rose because world war ii is fading . Because because the vastness of his achievement is slowly being lost to people. I think it was a survey that showed that most people think that he is a an Insurance Company advertisement, the dog, an Insurance Company called churchill with a dog pass cot. Thats what young people think. So it was an attempt to bring him to life again for a new generation. And to show the sheer scale of what he achieved, but also why he was the only guy who could have possibly achieved it. How it came about that in may 1940, business an and the world was on the brinkofabsolute disaster. Rose paris had been captured. Paris was gone, the french were hoping. Rose right. That we would do a deal with hitler because that what palliate their own indignity, their own hum iliation. Was over there arguing, chamberlain, halifax, all the appeasers in the tory party were telling churchill, do this, make a deal with hitler. Rose mack a deal with hitler. And if he had, you would have had a nazidominated europe. Rose continent. Would you have had an epic disaster for humanity, its possible after all that hitler with have been able to invade russia successfully earlier. Who knows what would have happened. Rose instead he had to front a two front war. And he tried to go to moscow and that redale derailed everything. Absolutely. And churchill always knew that if he could hold on for long enough, hitler what lose because in the end, the americans would come in. That was his whole strategy. Rose and he tried and it worked. In the end it worked. Two years and four months before. Rose a good portion of the time he was trying to get rass velt to do it all those areas, john meacham road a good book about roosevelt and churchill. Its a wonderful subject. Because, you know, dont forget churchill, though his mother was american and he came to this city in 1895 when he was only 20. He loved america. But he also i must confess to you, there was also a part of churchill that felt a certain sadness about americas eclipsing of britain. And in the 20s. And i will be honest, in the 20s and in the 30s he became so antiamerican that clementine at one stage tells him he couldnt be foreign secretary because of the level of his feelings. You know, because america was. Rose but it was jealous jealousy. I think that is the rit word. I think its with a feeling that america was blowing britain off the elbowing britain elbowing, which was true. And. Rose and it want into high ger after the war. And public of churchill said of the great deal by which america helped britain to fight on and supplied those planes and those ships. He said it was the most unsordid act in history am but in private he said britain was whatever it was, he should have gonement and i think he regretted it. And dont forget that at the end of his political career, when hes got his cabinet around for the last time in 1955, he has two pieces of advice. One man is spirit. Whatever that may be. And and second, never be separated from the americans. When you set down this book is about what is greatness and how do you get there. It seems like this is a man who wanted to be great. And thought about it and did things that he thought would put him on that. Thats very as future, thats right. I think thats it. There is a great element in churchill of self selfassessment. He knows exactly who he has got napoleon in his sights, nelson, both of them on his desk. Churchill, dont forget was not he was five foot six and a half inches tall, maybe five foot seven. His chest 31 inches. He was a shrimpy guy who sort of built himself up. Literally using dumbbells and but morally also. Dow have a feeling, though, that he believes so much in his own capacity that he could be britain. That he was willing to do almost anything to make that happen. Yeah. Whether it meant shifting parties, whatever was necessary. He did get power. Oh, yes, yes. And he is famous. There would be no one like him before or since in british politics. He rats on the tories in 1904. And then rejoins them, of course he would claim that he had been consistent because the tories had abandoned free trade and then came back to free trade. He rejoins them in the 20s. And then becomes chancellor of the exchequer, this renegade, this traiter is made chancellor of the exquicker. Rose why was that, because they recognized that he had real ability . They did. Everybody knew throughout his political career that they were dealing with somebody who was truly exceptional am they all pointed it out. So. Rose everybody knew that. They knew. Actually in some ways. Rose but not to be trusted. Correct. He was thought of as a loner, as a maverick, as a guy who continually got things wrong. But then in the late 30s, he takes this gigantic political position, this bet that hitler is wrong. Hitler is a bad guy. He can see it. Because hes been out there to write he had been out there in the early 30s. He had seen the marching kids and all that. And he smells it. And he was totally right. Rose you wrote he wasnt what people thought of as a man of principles. He was a glorychasing, goldmouth hanging opportunist. He was. He took positions that crumpled beneath him. But the amazing thing was he survived. And the other thing about the positions that he took was that he never at any stage was morally compromised. You know, when politicians get things wrong in our times, very off ep there will be some element where their own honor and integrity, they will have been shown to have lied about something or whatever. You know, nixon. Rose . But that was never the case of churchill. Rose it is said about him that he was that he didnt his father didnt spend a lot of time with him. His father was not there for him. And so therefore he was overly protective. Yeah, he had a very complicated relationship with his father. And a tragic he writes called the dream after the war in which he imagines that the shade of ran dalf, sitting in an armchair next to me. And when ran dalf is saying well, you know, my boy, nice to see you. Tell me about the world today. And he randolph doesnt understand that church hill has become the greatest living englishman. And you know, his father forms the impression that he is sort of a retired former army officer who is interested in painting. And churchills bursting to explain his success to his father when puff, evannishes. And you have this sense of churchill yearning to impress his father. His father wrote him terrible letters when he was at school saying he was a confounded young wastrel and all this sort of thing. Rose you know how many come to this table and central to their psyche is this idea, and testifys said it, i did okay, pop. Yeah. Rose the whole notion that well, the monkey on churchills back, as it were, was that. His relationship with his mother was fascinating. A woman, extraordinary woman. And new yorker, of course, she she was very influential in his early life. Rose what was his greatest skill . Other than his will to prevail. Other than his will to prevail. I was going to say it was never giving in. But i think the thing that he had that i found stunning in writing the become and researching about it. There are many people without dig into churchill come out with this feeling. He was his energy, his industry. I mean it was like the toy with the battery that just keeps going. And churchill is not like anybody or any journalist i know. Codrink, red wine at dinner. Rose a lot. Red wine, white wine, brandy. You know, i will quarters. Rose prodigious. He would then get up from the table, 10 00, go upstairs to his office in he would walk around while some poor secretary was waiting up all night. Rose and talk. And dictate, dictate until like 2 00, 3 00 in the morning. Rose dictate what, a book, speeches. Speechesing memo. And that way he composed not just more words than dicen, not just more words than shakespeare, but more words than dickens and shakespeare combined. And he won the noble prize for literature. And his paintings still sell for about a million dollars. Rose thises with a nobel prize he won for his history with the second world war. Thats right, that is right. And some people say well, it was the sweds feeling a little gillee about their tra vesty during the war and maybe the Nobel Committee felt that you know, but still, the nobel prize is the nobel prize. Rose an incredible amount of work. Extraordinary. Rose what is interesting about it is, i once visite visited and they showed me where he would write. Yeah. Rose and he would he would have everybody who was present at anything. Thats right. Rose during the war, they were in the room, they would send him their story of what they remembered. Thats right. Rose and then he would write his own version which would be consist with that. He would have. He would take everything and put his stamp on it. Thats completely right. It was a gigantic word processor of a house. Would you have the search engines, the data bank. He with press the key and scuttle up with this paper. That is how he did it. Rose when i asked about the greatest thing, i thought was i think it was i mean charm, charm. Wednesday had a fantastic lit ree gift. An ability to speak directly to people, to move them, to sway them. Rose but he understood it too. Because it is said that, you know, he built the pauses and the halting because he knew that if it appeared that this was something he is just thinking, and had a more powerful appeal, he would pause as if looking for the right word. Which of course is completely because his speeches were very far from unpremeditated. They were declarations of text, on which he had worked very hard. And his secret was using short anglo sackson words when he really wanted to grip he would say youni know, well fight them on the beaches. Well fight them on the hills, on the streets. Well never surrender. The only word is surrender. He like using shortening lish words. Rose he liked films too. He did like films. Rose we would have these movies shown. I know people who were there during world war ii. But they would talk about going out to his house for movies. They would. Rose on the weekends of the war. Im afraid he watched the Lady Hamilton by alexander 17 times. And wept every time. He was a prodigious blubber. He wept at almost everything. But he was an emotional guy. Rose you would know this better than i may remember. Jack kennedy, the president said mobilized the english like he was an add either way they are heroes. They are both heroes. De mobilized. And he sent it into battle. And the great thing about his speeches and his wartime broadcast was that they were aimed not just at the british, but he always had an eye to america. And he knew that that was the crucial audience. And that if he could reach his motherandas it were, and persuade them, then he would have done his duty. And get them into the war. That was his big achievement. Rose so why did the ungrateful british turn him out of office . It is one of the Great Questions of politics. And i think the answer is blindingly obvious. He had become because he had become somehow detached from the conservative party, he straddled politics. He was above it. He, it was felt possible to vote against the conservative party, without people thought that it was okay to be antitory. And yet to support churchill. So the labor slogan was cheer for churchill, vote for labor. Rose thats pretty good. Thats a good one. And so they kicked him out. And and but again, you know, look at that. He gets this incredible poke in the eye. Hes 70. What does he do . He keeps going. He never gave in. And he gets back into government. Rose this is what the economist say, you know the economist magazine. The semi articulated and perhaps semi conscious musing on contemporary politics that seep from mr. Johnsons analysis in which deep similarities emerge. This is the economist. Your own home group economist. Very great paper. Rose theyre saying you are drawing this comparison because you want people to think of you as a churchill in the making. No, its i explanned the origins of the book which is entirely they just, they pick ited out. They wanted. Rose it had nothing to do with the mayor of london write about winston churchill. I had written an essay about churchill which they liked. They thought captured something that they wanted to get over. And it was a chance to expand that message. And to try to bring him to but i no,i have more in common with a three today sloth or whatever. One eyed pterodactyl than churchill. So and. Rose but you also, i mean he had they said this about lincoln too. Ambitious. You know how many times lincoln lost an election before he was elected president . Like ten times. Amazing also loz lost. Ran for the congress, defeated. Ran for the senate, defeated. But he kept because ambition burned in him. Thank good continues did. Thank goodness. Rose its not a bad thing. Not a bad thing. Not a bad thing. Rose so fess up. Yeah, yeah, no, no. I got 18 months to go as mayor. And then ive got to finish that off and do my bestment and then well see what happens. But. Rose so well see what happens. Were thinking about it, but well see what happens. No, i know what will happen in london. London will continue to make progress i hope very much and we will continue to do things. Rose the great urban experiment in london is alive and well . It is, it is. You know, it is always wonderful to be here in new york. Weve got a lot to learn from each other as great cities. But london is going gangbusters at the moment. There is no question. Were fortunate. The objective now is going to be for common ground, weve got to see the london affect spilling out across the rest of the country. Thats what we want. Rose the thing about churchill and seeing america becoming, you know there are those who look at america and they look at china. And they say that china is coming. Uhhuh. Rose theyre going to make in their 21st century will be chinas. I think thats interesting. And i think its one of the reasons why people will think about churchill and study what he had to say. Because what he thought was that britain and america, with american firmly in the lead, represented values. Ideas of freedom and democracy. Free speech, independent judiciary, habbeas corpus, whatever, that were incredibly important. And that were actually peculiar to those englishspeaking cultures, he thought. This was his and actually, theres a lot of truth in that. And those ideas are not banal, theyre not trite and theyre not uncon cessed. Uncontested there are many parts of the world including china or russia or wherever that dont subscribe to that approach. And churchill wanted to push it forward. And he saw the englishspeaking peoples as a way of insurancing that that was guaranteed. And he saw america as the gaurnt err of that. And i think that the people of this earth are going to want america to play that role for as long as im around. And i think that will mean that in america, the idea of america losing a position of moral leadership in the world is very remote. I want america, i think the world should want america to retain that position. The book is called the churchill factor. How one manmade history. The mayor of london, Boris Johnson. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Rose foxcatcher is a new movie by bennett Bennett Miller based on the true story of john dupont and his relationship with olympic wrestlers. Here is the trailer for foxcatcher. Do you have any idea who i am . Some rich guy calls you on the phone. Who wants to speak with you about what you hope to achieve. What do you hope to achieve, mark . I want to be the best in the world. Good. Heres a key for you. Also a big house is off limits. Okay. Coach dupont has a vision. He would like to be the observation training site for the national team. What are you thinking . This is it. This is all that weve ever wanted. Mark, you have been living in your brothers shadow your entire life. Its your time. Now promise me. You are everything i have. I am leading men, and im giving america hope. I spent my lifetime looking for a father and i have found one in john dupont. It doesnt matter, the sport of wrestling is no sport. And i dont like to see you being why is there nobody in the gym. Yeah, no i gave i am ungrateful ape. Mark, mark, mark. Good. I dont need your help. You want to tell me what is going on with you and dupont. What did i just say . A coach is a father, a coach is a mentor. A coach has great power on an athletes life. Mark. Rose joining me now is Bennett Miller, the director, and three of the films stars, steve carell, Channing Tatum and van esar redgrave. Welcome. Vanessa redgrave. Welcome. Tell me what it was that caught your attention when you first heard this story. Well, eight years ago a stranger approached me in the store and handed me an envelope that contained newspaper clippings of this story. And it took me almost no time after reading the first story, the first clipping that something i wanted to do. And what it was, i mean, its a long time ago. But looking back on it, theres elements of my other films that have these outsider characters who have been alienated and have got some great ambition that is meant to remedy the problem of their life. But this particular one had, you know, an allegory underneath it that spoke to me. That had something to do with class and wealth and entitlement. And country. Family. I mean so many things woven into it. And i just couldnt put it down. Sounds like a bit of shakespeare and a bit of a hell of a movie. It did to me. I read the script and i was i thought it was incredible. And an opportunity to work with bennett certainly was a huge component. Because his work speaks for itself. Hes really good. And to be a part of that world was a real honor. Rose he casts well too, doesnt he. I think he tends to cast against the grain. I think in terms of me, i dont think i was on any list for this role. And i think bennett took a chance in casting me. Rose why did you cast him . Well, nobody ever expected that john dupont would kill anybody. And so part of it is putting somebody in a role who you do not believe is capable of, you know, you dont think of in that way. One of our early conversations between steve and i, steve said, he had only ever played characters with mushy centers. And john dupont seems to have a mushy center but he doesnt. Hes dangerous. And the way steve spoke about him and the understanding he had also, you know, my feeling about comic actors. Im just very attracted to them and the idea that there is another aspect. There tends to be another aspect to them. A darker side, perhaps. That you know, you can access and surprise people with. And i also just think hes a great actor. I always found him very compelling. Rose channing, was it bennett, was it the story, was it the role that brought you on board . I first met bennett about seven years ago before i had been in even one successful film. So you know, i had seen capote and obviously, like steve said, that piece of work speaks for itself. And i knew i banned to work with him am and we started just talking about the story. And i done think he had a script then. And so i went and researched the characters. And i hadnt i didnt have any knowledge of the story beforehand. And really just fell in love with the idea of this world that i dont think anyone has seen before in film. In a deep way. And i didnt know anything about this event. And then i read the script. And to be completely honest, i didnt understand it. I think i was too green and my knowledge of film thought that there needed to be some sort of resolve or some sort of lesson learned. And i just really didnt understand it and the movie just didnt happen, you know. So its not like i passed or anything. And then the movie sort of came back around and i met bennett on the lot at sony. And he had just finished money ball. He said come see it. And i saw it and we got to talking about foxcatcher. I think i had just done a lot of breauxing, and a lot more lessons learned, in a way. And reading it with fresh eyes and bennett sort of talking me through it again, it just made sense. You for example i literally threw myself at his feet. Rose said im in. Yeah. Rose and then you found vanessa. Yeah. Much later on, i think, wasnt it. It was later on. Rose this is between john dupont and his mother. Here it is. I think well give it to the Childrens Museum if they have room. Do you agree . I dont care what you do with the train set. I dont care about trains. Mother, i am leading men. I am training them. I am teaching them. I am giving them a dream and i am giving america hope. Hope. It doesnt matter. Im glad you have your trophy. It can go in the trophy room. Not in the i dont like the sport of wrestling, as you know. Its a low sport. And i dont like to see you being low. Rose tell me who john dupont was. He was the heir to the dupont fortune. I think he was a very lonely, sad guy. He was hes someone who grew up, essentially by himself, with his mother. Who by all accounts was pretty chilly. And his parents were divorced when he was two years old. So he grew up with just her in this house. And was isolated, i think, because of his wealth. And its documented he had mental issues. You know, who was he . Its our best guess as to who he was. But i interviewed people. I read books that he had written. Books about him. I dont know. I just ultimately i think he was a tortured, very tragic individual. Rose seeking something. Seeking, well, yeah, i think part of the reason he became involved with wrestling, why he started this wrestling facility, and sports in general, he had cate an extensive Sports Program on his estate. He wanted that greatness, i think, to rub off on him. He embraced it. He just he loved the idea of being a leader of men. And he wasnt, naturally. But the character that mark rufallo plays, dave schultz, was a leader of men. He was one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. And dupont zeroed in on people like that. And wanted wanted to be it was a conflict, i thinkment because he wanted to be that persons mentor as well as be mentored by him. He didnt i think he was he was trying to fit himself into this world. And he didnt really possess the tools to do so. Rose it took you eight years to get this made. Yeah. Rose what was the reservation on the part of studios. Its an unusual film. And it doesnt fit into simple economic model, you know. Movies get financed based on formulas. And you know, theres a value given to it based on the estimatesations of foreign presales driven by cast, with genre, director considered. And this film did not make sense to anybody. Never did make sense to any standardized metric that is used. And when money ball was wrapping up, i met Megan Ellison and showed her the script. Talked to her about it. And she disregarded her counsel and just took a shot. Rose took a shot, yeah. Tack a look at this. This is a clip this is john dupont talking to the schultz brothers during training. Here it is. Im really sorry about your mother. Oh, no, no, no, no its fine. Are you okay. Yes. Are you sure. David, we have a lot of work to do the next couple of months. And you are an integral part of that. Do you understand. I understand. Im going to need you. And i will be relying on you to a great extent. I want more than anything to win a gold medal. And we have someone who can do that. Were going to win a gold medal, john. How are you feeling . I feel very good about it. Im a little concerned that there are some psychological issues that we need to take care of. I think hes going to be in real good shape. Well, i think youre doing a great job. Thanks, john. And i think that with you and i working in tandem, if we cant get him there, no one can. All right, get back. Okay. Mark, mark. Mark. Hes okay. Good. Rose what is it, i know, that is at the central core of this film . What is he speaking seeking from them and what are they seeking from him. That is the question. What is the transactionment i think dupont cast himself in a role where he would be, you know, the leader of these guys. I think he was as steve pointed out a very lonely guy. A very alienated guy. I think he was attracted to the fraternity, to the culture of these guy was do have a moral code. And you know, theyre in it for the virtues because youre not getting rich. Youre to the getting famous. Rose it was something he could never do and could have never done. Yeah. Rose it gives him an in. Yeah. And you know, its sort of a parallel to the mother who got her stable of horses and she was a worldclass equistrian. And part of it was rebellious. But i also think you know, he imagined himself being some kind of cold war hero that he had visions of 1980 hockey type of victory or like a boris basky, bobby fisher type thing. Rose what happened that changes when dave arrives . I think this false sense of, i guess security. And someone that you thought believed in you, it all just comes crashing down. I mean dave even though was largely a father figure for mark, i think was always a bit, you know, mark could never be as shiny and important as dave, i think. Largely because dave brought him into wrestling. And every accomplishment that mark ever achieved, whether it be the worlds or the gold medal, even, was a bit attributed to dave. And i think when dave gets here, its just, you know, its probably the thing that, you know, saved him, but also his biggest nightmare. Rose is this an all he gory on america . Well allegory on america . Well, i was drawn into it, you know, im drawn into these things. But you have to be careful when making the film. Because you have to acknowledge that its implicit within the story. But then you know, give all importance to these characters. And what is happening. But for me, i i do see a lot of relevancy. Rose take a look at this clip. This is between john dupont and mark. Here it is. Do you have any idea why i asked to you come here today. No. Rose well, mark. Well, mark, do you have any idea who i am . No. Some rich guy calls you on the phone. I want mark schultz to come visit me. Wbltion im a wrestling coach. And i have a deep love for the sport of wrestling. And i wanted to speak with you about your future. About what you hope to achieve. What do you hope to achieve, mark . Within i want to be the best in the world. Rose so what is the biggest challenge for you here . Do you think in acmaing this after you got it financed and you put together this cast that you liked. Its a very quiet film that that what it is really aboutdo doesnt get expressed explicitly. And so finding a way to coordinate these moments so that we, you know, that we register what is happening. Whats being unspoken. Hes so good. I mean he really is. And he will put his head down and get very shy about that. But i have never had an experience like this. And to have complete trust in someone and feel i talked to rufallo one night after we were shooting am i didnt socialize with these guys very much. Rose on purpose. Yeah. I think we all just sort of you guys got, you know, got tight as brothers. But i very much felt to be on the periphery. But one night i was commiserating with mark on the which back to the hotel am and we both expressed this fear of where, what are we doing . This is either the biggest mistake and the worst thing that weve ever donement because were way out on a limb in terms of these characters. But for both of us, i think and i think for the three of us, four of us, five of us, all of us, trusting Bennet Bennett bennettment and just knowing that he knows. That was for me the comfort factor. Its amazing. Yeah, ive gotten to work with a few people now. In my short career compared to these two. I dont know anybody that lives it with you as much as bennett. I mean this movie is not a fun movie. And i dont mean thats alike it wasnt enjoyable. Because there is an immense amount of gratitude and appreciation that goes into doing something that was hard. And you know for a fact that hes right there next to you, just going through it with you. And theres something, you know, just very comforting. And just committing and going all the way. And doing it for him. And for the story. Rose sounds fairly interesting to me. I think its i am fascinated. One of the greatest experiences is actually being able to be part of the, like with you today and with q a because i like to hear what bennett has to say. And each time i see the film, i think oh my goodness me. Pie goodness me. Its like going down a down six miles and creatures are coming up. And its such, such resonances underwater resonances that are not made explicit. Which im so flipping fed up with. Yeah. Beautiful, it was beautiful. S great writing. And all the greater writing because the writer didnt exist. And all this, to be in the scene and explain everything, which im sure he didnt, being the good requires that they were. And you are such the further director. And i have to pitch in and say i was frightened. Because the frirtening thing knowing that i mustnt have any assumptions and this was exactly what the journey was about. And yes, i was playing a very spec woman. But i had to just listen what bennett gave and then confront my son. And the very fact to say hello which is great. But talking about this thing, you have to keep alienated if you are going to be an alienated person. You cant jump from one to the other. Or its very difficult, in fact, impossible. But i guess i guess to se see its both micro and macro. I cant i was simply amazed watching the film. Thank you all. Great to meet you. Thank you very much. Good to see you, thank you. One more time, the film opens on limited, friday. Rose limited on friday night. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Daphne merkin is hear. A former columnist for the new yorker magazine and contributor to elle magazine. She published a new anthology called the famed lunches. It spans her four decade career as a literary and cultural critic. Waddy allen says her essays are strikingly original and take on the human conditionment im pleased to have her back at the table. Welcome. Thank you. This is like the second anthology. Yes. Rose how do you a poach an an tolling . Anthology. I think one of the problems of anthologies or collections of essays is you want to try and make them look organic, when theyre not organic. Rose they werent mont to be together but they are together. They are thrown together. So i try to put together pieces, you know, through different themes. And one of the wounded icons, really interested me. Tell me what that is about. Its the title essay called the famed launches. Its about my, how would i put it, effort to gain some significance in my own eyes or attain a certain kind of status in the world by harnessing myself to as i say, famous people but famous people who were themselves wounded. Rose you are drawn to them. Yes. Rose you say you are drawn to fragile sorts of celebrities or famous somebodies who feel they are misunderstood nobodies. Right, right. Rose what is it about them that attracts you . I think the notion that someone becomes an accomplishment accomplished person or celebrated person, but is not totally intact ike logically. I find fascinating. I mean none of us are totally intact psychologically. But the notion that they work around their woundedness to kind of make something. Rose yeah, an sometimes the impression is because they are so successful, then they must be just so solidly okay. Right, right, absolutely. Rose an theyre not solidly okay. No. Rose an all the thins that they thought fame and celebrity would bring, it didnt bring. Right, absolutely. But i think as a culture, we look on and think like about a robin williams. Rose yeah. What could have been wrong in his life. And in truth, we never know the demons that drive people. Rose of all these, which one is the most revealing for you . For some reason, Marilyn Monroe fascinates me unendingly. Rose what was it about her. Its interesting. Rose what did she say about sex and fame and right. I dont know, i read her diaries that came out last year. Rose yeah. These, they are really not diaries, theyre little notes she wrote to herself. One of them is a dinner menu. She was trying to teach herself how to entertain. I think she was an interesting. Rose was the beauty that sort of everybody. I think it was the beauty and vulnerability it was a potent combination. Rose why would she show up two or three hours late for a scene. Yeah. Rose drive everybody crazy. I know. She had enormous anxiety of performance. Rose every review i have read about your book says the following. She did not include the famous essay on spanking. Right. Rose is that the most famous essay you have ever written. I shudder to think that it might be. Rose but why is it. Because i think first of all i include it in my last collection. Rose thats a good reason right there. So i wasnt going to double it. But because i think a certain kind of kantor about sex remains. Rose missing. Right. Its not one of the things people are most up front about. I mean keeping it away from the area of porn which isnt about kantor anyway. So i think that piece, as i write in the thing, has haunted me. Rose because everybody remembered it. Remembered it. Because it was in the new yorker. Because i mean when i reread it, i thought i cant believe i said all this. But thats who you are. I mean you say what you see an hear. Yes, it interests me to do that. I always think of a tight el, of a collection of esquire pieces that came out years ago. The title of which was all our secrets are the same. I always kept that in mind. What does that mean to you sm. That if we told them, if we spilled them. What we dont want to tell is the same regardless of who we are . Yes. That we keep the same things hidden. And a lot of it has to do, i assume, with ego and fear. Absolutely. You also have this really new piece called about therapy which called making my therapist laugh. What is that about . I wrote it for this new section of the sunday review called couch. Yes. And they called and asked if i would write something. And i was thinking to myself, about my own tennessee to try and entertain my therapist, my many therapists instead of droning, you know, in a way i thought the opposite of entertaining was that you run the risk of being boring. Im talking about your psychic life is repetitive by its very nature. So i talked about how i, one they werist couldnt stop laughing. And i wane that funny. And he said to me, why dont i become a stand up comedian. And i thought im trying to hard to entertain. Rose your own therapist. Yes. So, right. Rose have you been in therapy . Yes. Rose was it helpful. Im still, sad to say or not sad to say im still in it. Yes. In a incremental way. You dont see big changes on the next street corner. Rose but when you write an essay, where do you start . With an idea, a person, a scene. I would say. Rose how do you get in. I would say thats such a good question. Because im always, every time i start an essay again, i think here we go again. I think a mixture of scene, placing, and some interesting idea about the about the person in that setting the scene. Like some perception you have that hasnt been out there. Rose yeah. Right. Rose i mean and especially if it goes against the grain of presumption. Right. Rose if it is something that is so crucial, you know. I mean how could someone who cares so little about fashion, care so much about jewelry. Absolutely. That would be a great opening. Rose that would be an opening line. That would be great, true. Rose when you wass the normal link for an essay . Is it about how many words. Dependses on the magazine. New york is different than el we right, can rang from a thousand for a certain length essay for the times to 4,000, 5,000 words. For some. Rose and when you look into the pantheon of essayists, who is up there that i love an essayist, very sick now named clive james. Rose oh, sure. I find him a wonderful essayist. Rose he lives in london, doesnt he. He lives i think in australia, i think. Just read a collection by him. Rose is he writing about dying. He is. Rose that is what i thought. Yes. With a sort of sense of humor, which is interesting. I always go back to Virginia Woolf for certain kind of essay. Certain kind of personal yet informed kind of essay. Rose then there is the famous orwell essay, why do i write. Why i do write, absolutely. He was a great essayist, great, yeah. Rose when you what dow tell me how you employ language. Are you looking for telling details . Are you looking for contradictions . Are you looking for what . Should be a book editor. I look for a mixture of as you said correctly the detail that will capture a reader and i like praises that stand out on a page, you know, that you dont just sort of close over. Rose what i would like when i read an essay, i like to read something in which somebody has characterized somebody which i havent thought of but instantly i said yes. Yes. Thats who they are. That is actually very i wrote in my introduction that i hope the essays would elicit nods of recognition. Exactly. I think that is what one wants. That is what a writer should do. A writer should force somebody to say oh my god, you know, i couldnt express it but thats what i thought. Thats exactly what i thought without expression. Yes. I think thats the goal, pretty much. You did say at a point that you were always in search of love. Or did you not . It sounds like something i would say. It does. I once told a therapist that i wrote, you are right, he said what dow write for. And i said for love. Yeah, exactly. And he said you will never get it that way. But i go on writing. Rose good for you. Were all glad. The book is cull cad the famed lunches. Daphne merkin, thank you, thank you for being here. Thank you for joining us. For more about this program and visit us yen line at pbs. Org an charlie rose. Com. Funding for carlie rose has been provided by the cocacola company, supporting this Program Since 2002. American express. Additional funding provided by. And by bloomberg, provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Female announcer this program was made possible by by a generous educational grant from and by what if you discovered that dementia can be prevented . If you could make just three simple changes in your life to prevent or even reverse memory loss and other brain disorders, wouldnt you . Well, you can, and im gonna tell you how. The impact these changes will have is nothing short of remarkable