Welcome, welcome, imam, and welcome pastor dever. I want to talk about and present the proposition that the economic condition of any nation has profound impact on all phases of social living, cultural living, and spiritual the spirituality of the era. And well develop that as weo along. In the 1960 we had a wave of economic expansion and it produced something called the age of aware just. And the age of aware just spawned the number of exotic religions, including zen buddhism and hindu meditation and from there into the jesus freak Youth Movement which swept through the ranks of the drugdepleted and sexsated surfers of california and and from there into the jesus freak Youth Movement which swe. Now, imam, do you detect any impact of the affluence of today on the spirituality of your your flock . Indeed. I do believe that if i were to go back 20 years or see where muslims are going now, i do believe that the Economic Situation of muslims and the Worldwide Community will influence the way muslims see islam and see islams spirituality as the way out of the dispair, out of the harmlessness, out of the homelessness and poverty that mums limbs have been experienced in the last 20 years. You serve as a Muslim Chaplain of Georgetown University which is a Roman Catholic university in the sense its run by jesuit priests, right . Indeed, yeah. Now, how is that going . I think it has gone, so far, very well. I have enjoyed working with the jesuits, with the Roman Catholic priests, with the protestants ministers and with the rabbis. Do you have any muslims in your congregation at georgetown . I dont think i can i dont know exactly how many muslims are there at Georgetown University, but im familiar with about 500600 muslim students. And about 200 staffers and faculty members. Have you noticed any kind of exoticism within the Muslim Community thats comparable in what we see from outcroppings from the spiritual the economic expansion of the 60s, anything like that . Is there anything comparable to like we hear about on television, pagan, wiccan religion and new age parapsychology . But your the faith in the koran, the muslim faith is deeply rooted in principles that seems to be impervious to what im talking about here, is that true . Well, if we are to go back to koranic principles of social life and economics and all that. One sees a challenge for us to live our life righteously, handle our wealth in the way god wants us to, considering the different circumstanc in which we live. You know, had this economic what go do we want to call it, muslims taking away from their faith or back to their faith, i believe it has brought them back to their faith. This is why islam now is the most powerful religion in the middle east, in the arab world, and the most fastest religion in america as well. You mean that wealth and prosperity are not ultimately fulfilling, and this creates, in at a certain point, that what youre saying . And this is true with muslims true . Well, islam islamic teaching is balanced between the economic and the wealth and the spiritual wellbeing. So both have to go hand in hand. And when people focus only on the economic advancements without the spirituality islam says that will take them eventually to their own direction. Imam, you know that as this program proceeds were going to be talking about what the koran says about jesus. Yes, sir. And i think our audience is going to be quite surprised about what the koran does say about jesus. And how much it reveres jesus, while not, of course, assuming that he is the son of god. But that he is a prophet and he is a divine prophet, if a sense without actually having divinity well get to that . A moment. But you see opposite a gentleman that has been sitting patiently. Hes not muslim, hes christian, hes Southern Baptist and hes a pastor here in washington, d. C. , correct . True. Do you have thoughts on anything weve been talking about here . Notably the impact on current affluence on spirituality . Yeah, think in an important sense what youre saying is true. I think in the deepest sense its not so true. It is true in the sense that since the 1940s theres really been a huge economic expansion that allowed a separate Youth Culture to develop financially in the way you couldnt have had in the 20s or the teens earlier. When you have a separate commercial fed by interests there are going to be lots of new things, not just in the 50s but, but the 70s, places to hang out, books, new literature, places to go out, derveltly, an effect on news. Buddhism isnt old, theyre new to america. Theyre new to us and i think there certainly has been an openness to the new in the last 50 years. But in the most important sense i say, well, no, 9oure going to find very religious people who are very wealthy and youre going to find very religious people who are very poor. It seems at the end of the day our financial situation is not what finally determines whether interested in our souls in relationship with god. The poor usually display a keen interest in religion that is ongoing since their lives are so plainly at the mercy of forces beyond themselves. A typical modern western secular myth. That is not true. So if you look, for instance, at the rites of church attendants, supposedly the more developed economically a country goes the lower the rates of Church Attendance are. But yet america stands in contradiction to that. Dont you think that when middle america, or the upper class beorgoisie are struggling to gain and maintain a regular of Financial Security that during that time theyre pretty much calvinist and they dont spend that much time dealing with religion. Rather, their work almost becomes a religion and then when they reach a point, a level of affluence, then they develop as nouveau riche, if you will, an interest in religion. Is that true . No. I think not true . Thats not true, thats a thesis about calvinism being a force for economic change. I think thats somewhat discredited. Do you think that the wealthy parishioners that you have in your congregation are as committed to their personal spiritual and religious growth as are the less economically fortunate, the poor . You also have many poor people in your parish, as i understand . Yeah, we have 400 people, mainly in their 20s and 30s. We dont have any wealthy, by world standards but not american standards, we dont have a lot of wealthy. You do not . No, a middle class congregation but a lot of young people. Jesus is a familiar icon but he means Different Things to different faiths. What spiritual void will jesus fi in the early 21st century . That we are now at . Wel put that question to our guts but first, here distinguished profiles. Born madison, kentucky, wife connie, two children, Southern Baptist, Duke University b. A. Magna cum laude. Master of divinity. Southern baptist theological seminary, master of theology, summa cum laude. Cambridge university ph. D. Eaton Baptist Church cambridge england associate pastor two years. Cambridge university, england, instructor, classics, two years. Capitol hill Baptist Church, washington, d. C. , pastor, six years and cur dever. Born palestine, 34 years of age, wife soran. Two children. Muslim. University of jordan. B. A. , university of jordan, m. A. Islam historic. Hardford seminary m. A. Karattive religions and muslimchristian relations. Council on economic relations, washington, d. C. Director of public relations. Two years. National Naval Medical center, washington, Muslim Chaplain, three years and currently, Georgetown University. Muslim chaplain. One year and currently. Yahya hendi. Yahya hendi, imam, you are a muslim theologian, is that correct . I think so. How many years did you spend studying muslim theology . I would say about 15 years. How does the koran depict jesus . Well, jesus is looked at as a prophet, as a messenger of god. There are 15 chapters in the koran out of 114 that talk about jesus christ. The total verse he is that mention christ in different ways are 93. Hes seen as the born baby of mary, virgin birth. Virgin birth. Yes. In the desert . He was born in palestine. Near a palm tree in a desert . Yes, yes, indeed, near a palm tree in palestine. Does islam accept the notion of jesus assess dense into god . Well, muslims believe that jesus was not crews tied. Muslims believe there was an attempt to crews phi him, crewsify him but he called upon his lord asking him not to, and obliged him to send him to 11 alive, he was not crucified. Did he perform miracles . Yes. He cured the blind . Cured the blind, healed the sick. Did he heal lepers. Yes. Did he raise the dead. Yes. He did . The koran said he raised the dead, healed blind, all those miracles were performed by the permission of god, his lord and the lord of all people. How many people do you know in history have raised the dead besides jesus and or besides jesus . None. None. Does that not suggest to you he is divine . No, that to me suggests he has a special place and role in history that god designed for him. Was he touched by satan . No, he was not. Was his mother married . She was never married. Never married . Never married according to the islamic concept of history. Why hasnt the parallelism between the teachings of the koran and the teachings of the bible brought christians and muslim closer together i ask you dr. Mark dever . Well, its difficult to be brought together on exactly the teachings because what the emom said here is not the case that jesus is not crucified is at the very heart of the christian understanding of not only what happened to jesus but what jesus intended to do. So you can see tolerance but you cannot actually see a reconciliation because the doingmatic differences are so different . Yeah. I know youre not surprised because youre a man of very deep and wide erudition as is evidence of to what youre saying today. Do you believe many westerners that the koran teaches that christ was born of a virgin. A lot of american churches would be better off if they believed as much as the imam did, the Christian Churches in america, yeah. You mean that there is a rejection of jesus as being truly the son of god by a number of protestants churches . A number of people in churches. What percent of protestants believe jesus is the son of god . No idea. How aut believe in the trinity . I think a High Percentage would say they do but i large percentage would say they didnt. There are some mutually exclusive propositions separating the muslim religion from the christian religion, correct. Right. Imam, i assume you think i as a christian could live a life good enough whereby the mercy of god i would be accepted by him eternally in heaven, i dont want to put words in your mouth . According to the koran god has to believe god is the almighty creator and no one should be in once anyone, a human being devote herself or himself the worship of other than god then thats what takes him from salvation of heaven from acceptance from god. So any theistic believer in god in that sense could be . But this believers also has to believe also as jesus as a prophet, a messenger, not as the son of god and has to believe that mohammad is not the only prophet but rather the last of prophets who came after many other prophets like moses, jesus, david, solomon and many or prophets. How are they ranked . All are equal. In chapter two in the koran theres a verse is a says we do not distinguish among all of the prophets, all are equal in the eyes of god. But going back to the issue of the son of god and why muslims believe that way, muslims believe that it was paul who really started the idea of teaching that jesus was crucified and was the son of god. Can we talk a little bit about the popes visit in this sense . It was abraham maik in character. Abraham founded three religions, correct . False. He did not. No. What ded. Obeyed it from awah, and follow them whatever they believed. What are you attacking my verb founded. The three religions were pounded. Thats not true. No. Why was that widely public litigationed in connection with the popes visit. You could say it in a common way, we have common roots, that you could say. As jesus said abraham actually looked forward to his day, to the day of jesus. Do you see abraham as a prophet . Yes, abraham as a prophet and from him descended jesus, jesus and mohammad. I want to go right to the point, though. The pope apparently, notwithstanding your keen insight yes, he didnt phone me about it. [laughter] notwithstanding that, i have the impression that he wanted to show by his visit over there and he also wanted to get into iraq and he wanted to go but for political reasons he could not do so, regrettably, where abraham was born in you can, saddam husseins iraq, right . But he wanted to show the linkage between the three faiths, why did he want to do that and is that desirable from the point of view of what interfaith dialog, interfaith communion, interfaith connection . Why did he want to do that . He has to be asked that question and the Roman Catholic church has to come up with a clear statement. You have all those good jesuits there, do they have give you the reason . I am given the reason it was religiously promoted and to promote peace in the religion. Let me say this. Muslims might not recognize some aspects of the christian theology and christians might not recognize some aspects of islamic theology and the same thing with judaism but the argument i believe that the pope was trying to make and muslims make and i make in interfaith work is we are different, we need to keep talking about those differences but meanwhile there are common, shared interests in life to make our lives better. Theres also some doingmatic correspondences, they are monotheistic, are they not . True. Although buddhism does not suggest an autonomous personage. Right. Buddhism, at least certain kinds offed byism, people say the oldest kinds of buddhism are not considered purely theistic, theyre more eight theistic, not a god as we would conceive of it. They also recognize their god, quote, unquote as revealed through their particular scrip pure, notably the koran, the bible, and the tal nude, correct . Here we have jews go ahead. Not buddhists. Not buddhists, correct. Not buddhists. Right. I the koran recognizes the torah, that moses did receive the torah, from god, christians received the angel, and mohammad conceived the koran. Lets confine jude day i. , muslimism and christianity. Do they not all believe in a final judgment . Traditional christianity, islam and judaism espoused the idea of a final judgment, that is true. And you believe that as part of your crede. I think im going to die and stand before god and have to give him a personal account. Thats the particular judgment, what about the final judgment when were all gathered together in a giant plane . I dont know about the plane thing but i think thats going to happen. You do. Yeah. You think its literally going to happen with the resurrection of the body. The whole thing there the whole thing. The whole thing. You dont put any limits on it, any symbolic reading into it to dilute it of its literacy. Rich symbolism, i wouldnt deny that. But im not sure what interest i would have in saying it doesnt mean what it says, i think it does mr. Do you have a particular judgment and if you stand before someone whom will that be. I believe under their judgment all human beings, creation will stand before god for judgment, for that which they did or said or how they acted in life. Who is god . God is the almighty creator of this planet and universe. A person . God is not to be a force . Well, gods form is not to be known by us but he is the creator of this universe. He what about she . We dont use the pronouns to define god. He just use he. This is the english language. In erik we would say god and not give pronoun, whether masculine or feminine mr. I think what were going to see in the 21st century, and sooner rather than later, is an overwhelming conflict between science and faith. Look at whats coming along. Were going to unlock the human genome, were going to engage in genetic engineering to eliminate inherited disease and perfect mankind. We may overcome, to a great extent, the aging process. We may reinvent life itself. We may feel as though were taking on godlike powers. And there will be people, particularly in your communion, but also in yours, who will say why are we tinkering with what god and god alone should be doing . We are tinkering with the genetic structure of man. We are changing man as we have known him and has been presented by the koran and by the bible. Do you see that coming . And will it sway people more toward religion or away from religion . Well, i think medicine for the last hundred years has already undergone a lot of change. We dont even have to guess the years coming up. And certainly, as people who live in modern america, we all profit, religious or not we profit from the medical advances. Now, the pharmaceuticals that come into existence by reason of biotechnology and genetic genetic the Genetic Sciences is one thing. But when you start altering genes, you are right at the heart of the essence of being a man, a person, you understand . Yes. That leap is an enormous leap. It is perhaps the most profound change that we will have ever seen in mankind. Way beyond anything like the industrial revolion. Its not the kind of thing that well be able to discuss carefully in a couple minutes on a tv show. No, but my question is to you, and i dont want you to take that dodge, if you dont mind my telling you, thats exactly what it is, is it going to pull people towards religion or is science really going to take over the role of religion . Is science going to be the new god . We dont need god as much. We can control our pain. We can control our disease. No, because were finally personal beings and we desire relationship. We dont merely to desire 20 years long asian not have certain diseases. We do desire this thing but wer created in the image of god and most fundamentally god himself from do you have thoughts on this . I think in this coming century people will lean toward god and rediscover themselves in the image of the almighty god. And number two when the time comes, when the time comes that you see and you greet, as a friend, a cloned human being, another person that looks exactly like you, and you know that that person has been cloned, is that going to i am pell you to impell to respect and love god more or incline you to move away from god into science . That needs to be discussed more thoroughly by scholars, theologians to come up with the right solution in the coming years. I think weve established that you, dr. Dever, take the resurrection literally. Thats right, on the last day that the imam w talking about he and you and i will all need his help. Im talking about jesus being resurrected from the grave. Thats what im talking about. That very one is the one whose help well need. Do you have anything in the koran that matches the resurrection . No, but on the day of judgment we would need the help of god, the almighty one, the lord of jesus and moses for salvation and not anyone else, not even mohammad. You are saying here earlier that jesus said that he was the son of god but he was not the son of god. Dont you think that god is going to say to jesus, why did you claim that you were my son . Is that going to happen, according to the koran . Cording to koran, god would say to jesus why did you say that and he said say i never said that, oh, my god. Its an indirect of god presenting himself to the Christian Community on the day of judgment. Hank you very much imam for being my guest. And thank you, pastor dever