Transcripts For WHUT Democracy Now 20130130

The man who destroyed the proof of the [indiscernible] dealing was a lawyer. A former cj agent John Kiriakou speaks out just days after he was sentenced to 30 months in prison, becoming the first cia official to face jail for any reason relating to the u. S. Torture program. Even those who carried it out. But first we go to egypt, state of emergency has been declared, the defense minister is warning about the possible collapse of the state. We will speak with democracy nows Sharif Abdel Kouddous in port said. All of that and more coming up. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. President obama kicked off his second term push for Immigration Reform on tuesday with a speech in nevada, a battleground state whose growing latino vote helped him win the november election. I am here today because the time has come for common sense, comprehensive Immigration Reform [applause] we have to deal with the 11 million individuals who are here illegally. We all agree that these men and women should have to earn their way to citizenship. But for comprehensive Immigration Reform to work, it must be clear from the outset that there is a pathway to citizenship. President obama omitted detailed proposals from his address, instead backing the Bipartisan Senate plan that includes a path to citizenship for a large number of the estimated 11 million undocumented people in the u. S. , but also tougher border enhancement enforcement and a system for tracking those who overstay visas. Obama took aim at antiimmigrant sentiment, saying foreign nationals are being maligned by people who forget their own ancestral past. It is easy sometimes for the discussion to take on a feeling of us versus them. When that happens, a lot of folks forget most of us used to be them. [applause] we forget that. It is really important for us to remember history. Unless youre one of the first americans, and native american, you came from someplace else. Somebody brought you. Despite a rise in the Bipartisan Senate plan, obama about this in his own immigration bill to congress if lawmakers dont take immediate action. The senate has confirmed democratic senator john kerry as president obama is the secretary of state, replacing hillary clinton. The final tally was 94 in favor and three opposed. After the vote, Democratic Senators Chuck Schumer of new york and dick durbin of Illinois Paid tribute to john kerrys legacy. We still admire the job he has done in his past life in many different phases. We are excited he will be our secretary of state. I think for john kerry, the best is yet to come. Is passionate pursuit of a safe nation and world is patriotism and commitment to americas best challenged values are well documented. While i am sorry to lose some as a colleague in the senate, i can think of no better person to serve as our nations next secretary of state. The bodies of a least 80 people had been found and aleppo, each with their hands bound and gunshot wounds to the head. Amateur video shows the dead corpses laid out after being collected from a bank on the river, most of the victims appeared to be young men, possibly in their teens. Speaking to reporters after a briefing to the and secure the council, the u. N. Arab league envoy Lakhdar Brahimi said both sides of the conflict in syria are taking part in the countrys destruction. Syria is being destroyed. I sometimes say the parties are angry at me when i say that. Objectively, there are they are cooperating in the destroying. Syria is being destroyed bit by bit. In destroying syria, the region is being pushed into a situation that is extremely bad an extremely important for the entire world. That is why i believe the Security Council simply cannot continue to say, we are in disagreement and lets wait for better times. The Obama Administration has formally signed an agreement with niger allowing a permanent u. S. Military site in the african country. Reporters this week the u. S. Will build a base in niger from which to fly drones for surveillance and potentially even missile strikes. Niger borders mali, where the u. S. Is aiding a frenchled military operation in the countrys north. In mexico, please recover the bodies of 12 people from inside a well in the city of monterey. The victims were members of the band kombo kolumbia and their staff who had been abducted last week. Israel has become the first country to boycott a u. N. Human Rights Council review of its record on human rights. The acting president of the humanRights Council convened the session in geneva on tuesday, only to see that no israeli representatives had shown up. We were to convene this afternoon to proceed with the review of israel, however, i see that the delegation of israel is not in the room. Israel severed contacts with the council last year after the body launched an investigation of illegal settlements in the occupied west bank. The News Agency Reuters is reporting john brennan, the nominee for the head of the cia, had detailed knowledge of the agencys torture program while serving under president george w. Bush. Official records apparently show brennan received regular internal cia updates about the progress of torture techniques, including waterboarding. It is not clear if you raise any objections at the time he was made aware. Attorneys for five alleged conspirators in the 9 11 attacks have asked a military judge to allow them to spend 48 hours at the Guantanamo Bay prison where their clients have been held. On the second day of a pretrial hearing, Navy Commander walter reed says the conditions of the men should factor into whether there ultimately sentenced to death. In cases where we have asked to put people to death. When the government sets out to put people to death, our Supreme Court has said [indiscernible] one of our standards is to go in and look at their conditions of confinement, look at how they live. Activists from across the country gathered at the Education Department in washington on tuesday to demand federal action on a wave of school closures. Parents, students, and organizers told education secretary arne duncan and top aides that School Closings are hurting entire communities, disproportionately those made up of lowincome residents and people of color. The Education Department is currently probing complaints that School Closings in six cities including d. C. , newark, philadelphia, detroit, new york, a chicago, violate the 1964 civil rights act. Karen harper royal, a parent and activist from new orleans, said the administrations policies are hurting students and their neighborhoods. Our communities are more than just data. Our children are not datapoint. I think it is time for president obama to reevaluate what is department of education is doing and its affect on our communities. At least one person has been killed in a shooting and kidnapping aboard a school bus carrying children in alabama. The gunman fatally shot the driver before seizing a young child. The gunman is said to be holed up in a bunker with the child hostage. In testimony tuesday before lawmakers of the connecticut legislature, a grieving parent who lost to 6yearold son in newtowns sandy hook massacre, pleaded for a ban on assault weapons. I just hope eve said before,n support change, ban assault weapons and highcapacity clips and magazines. And that is a step in the right direction. A georgia man is in custody and facing murder charges after allegedly shooting a cuban immigrant who mistakenly arrived at his home to the faulty instructions from the gps navigator. The 22yearold was shot and killed after reportedly pulling into the wrong driveway. The alleged shooter, a 69year old white man, reportedly came out of his house and fired into the air with a handgun, then shot diaz as there are attempting to leave. A lawyer for the alleged shooter said he was suspicious after recent robbery and claimed the victim had accelerated the car toward him. A state judge in texas has granted a lastminute reprieve to a woman who had been set for execution. The 51yearold Kimberly Mccarthy won the state on tuesday just hours before she was to be killed. Mccarthy would have been the first woman put to death in the u. S. Since 2010. Attorneys for mccarthy, who is africanamerican, said the mostly white jury that convicted her was improperly selected on the basis of race. A group of activists opposed to the Keystone Xl Oil pipeline has agreed to settle a lawsuit with transcanada, the Company Behind the project, after the firm alleged a monthslong protest blockade cost it millions of dollars. Environmentalist with the tar sands blockade have tried to halt the pipelines route through texas to gulf coast refineries with tree sits and other protests. Opponents say the tar sands pipeline would devastate the environment and pollute communities in its path. After transcanada alleged blockaders had cost them 5 million, the activists said they chose to settle in order to protect local residents who could have lost their homes and life savings. While the group has agreed not to trespass on keystone xl property in texas or oklahoma, they say the fight against the pipeline will continue. Protest is the project have also erupted in nebraska where governor Dave Heineman recently approved the six sections of pipeline route. President obama has delayed a decision on the pipeline until the spring after initially putting it off until after the november election. The boy scouts of america have announced it has begun discussing an end to its longstanding ban on gay members and leaders. A spokesperson for the groups as the 103year old ban is currently under review and could be reversed at a National Board meeting next week. The move comes just months after the boy scouts defiantly reaffirmed its ban after a secretive twoyear review. And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. Welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. We begin todays show in egypt, where mass protests have continued since they began last friday on the anniversary of egypts revolution. Now each of stiffens minister is warning of the potential collapse of the state. General Abdul Fattah Alsisi posted the comment on a Facebook Page after military forces were deployed in three cities along the suez canal, where a month long state of emergency has been declared. In recent nights, thousands have filled the streets of port said, along the northern tip of the canal, in defiance of the nighttime curfew imposed by president morsi. I am against these decisions. It will destroy peoples incomes. Why did implement these measures here in suez . Why doesnt he take the same measures in cairo and alexandria . Is he angry at us . Of course. This is a disaster. It will devastate suez. We are against his decisions. If he runs again, we will not elect him again and we will ignore him. Meanwhile, clashes have also erupted in cairo, including an attack on an Upscale Hotel that drew response from the Egyptian Special forces. Within 50 people have died in the countrys protests. Some of the violence was sparked by death sentences handed down saturday for 21 soccer fans involved in riots left 74 people dead last friday last february. Protesters have accused president morsi of betraying the twoyearold revolution. Then i of the egyptian currency has plummeted to record lows, causing a spike in prices of basic goods like sugar, rice, and cooking oil. For more we go to port said were people continue to protest in defiance of the state of emergency. Were joined by democracy now s Sharif Abdel Kouddous. Tell us what is happening and place poors said in egypt for us. It is good to be with you. Port said it is a city that is of the suez canal and at the mouth of the suez canal that attaches to the mediterranean. The city has had a long history of resistance. When they nationalized the suez canal and the 1950s and egypt came under attack by france, britain, and is wrote from port said was a central target. There is a National Pride in the collective memory of residence here. It is that culture of resistance that has exploded on the streets. What happened on saturday was a massacre of over 30 people who were outraged by a death sentence of 21 of their local Football Team fans, soccer game fans. The case has been going on for more than a year. Many of the families of those, of the defendants. Once the shocking verdict came out, 21 death sentences handed down, you could hear the screams of people in the streets. They approached the prison. The police opened fire. Just that first day, 30 people were killed, including two police officers. The death toll the next day, they went out the funerals and the following day on sunday, seven more people were killed when the funeral came under attack from police on rooftops. Nearly all of these people were killed with live ammunition. The death toll now is some more at 14. This is just a part of what is happening in egypt overall. As you mentioned, there is a revolt. Egypt is undergoing a revolt right now that began on the second anniversary of its revolution that has seen protests and clashes in the capital, cairo, that still going on, and alexandra in cities across the delta. Something like 10 provinces are in revolt right now the president , mohamed morsi, in a bid to quell what was going on, finally made a speech. But in the speech, there was a very angry tone and it was a finger wagging speech. He opposed a state of emergency for 30 days in these three cities along the suez canal, which are the most rested cities right now. As opposed to cairo, which leading the revolt actually, in suez [indiscernible] he imposed a nighttime curfew and fines for the curfew. It is supposed to be from 9 00 p. M. To 6 00 a. M. People began marches at 8 45 p. M. And told morsi it will not abide by the curfew, will not abide by his governments. And so he is facing a very serious crisis right now. The police have lost control of the cities. The army has been deployed, but largely guarding state institutions that have to do the suez canal. It is a very significant and pivotal moment. Can you explain what the implications are of the declaration of the state of the emergency . And as you point out, thousands have defied the order. What kinds of consequences are they likely to face . What does a state of emergency entail . The state of the emergency was one of the most despised tools of the mubarak regime to suppress [indiscernible] from october 6, 1981 until march 12, 2012, when it expired. The lifting of the state of emergency was a principal demand of the revolution. What it says is it is centrally lists from you are allowed to imprison people without judicial review. It gives the police widespread powers. And also the military is allowed to arrest citizens, gives them policing powers. It means those citizens would be put before military trial. [indiscernible] morsi pledged before never to have the state of emergency. It is now being installed again. I think it designates the resonates harshly with people. The fact on the ground is, there has been little reform whatsoever going ford, no reform of the police force since the revolution over these two years. This is a force [indiscernible] by some accounts, has engaged in more killing than before the revolution. Now when citizens are facing abuses, they head to the streets in protest. This internal list of repression, this police force, has not been resolved in any way whatsoever. There has been no accountability whatsoever. Over 1000 people have been killed since the revolution. This is the inevitable revolt on the streets. Morsi is trying to do what mubarak did for some years, trying to use the police on the streets to solve his political problems. Right now egypt is not governable by morsi or perhaps by anyone else. There is a serious crisis of the legitimacy of the government. Do you agree with each of top military officer, general Abdul Fattah Alsisi, who is saying that egypt could potentially collapse . He is warning of collapse of the state. I mean, it is hard to tell. What weve seen throughout these two years, the uprisings that come and go, clashes happening on the streets. There is really no real solution or political solution. The Political Class has failed to come together to forge a path with consensus to have some real change and reform in egypt. [indiscernible] there is the serious threat, like poor said, of along recognizing the government. People feel completely disenfranchised. Im not only talking about morsi and the muslim brotherhood, but also the three main figures that make up the national salvation, a Loose Alliance of the non islamist groups. [indiscernible] especially since this last crisis broke out. The natural response is for people to vent their rage on the streets, this ongoing feud with the police. Were going to leave it there because your voice is breaking up, though we are thrilled we are able to speak to you outside of cairo, speaking to in the northern coastal city of port said or agree to of the protest is taking place. Democracy now Sharif Abdel Kouddous speaking to us from port said. We will link your article at the nation. The only person to go to jail on the torture program. He was the whistleblower on torture. Stay with us. [music break] this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. A retired cia agent who blew the whistle on the agencys bushera torture program has been sentenced to 2. 5 years in prison. John kerry of who becomes the first cia official to be jailed for any reason relating to the torture program. John kiriakou becomes the first cia official to be jailed for any reason relating to the torture program. Under a plea deal, he admitted to a single count of violating the intelligence identities protection act by revealing the identity of a covert officer to a freelance reporter, who did not publish it. Under the plea deal, prosecutors dropped charges brought in to the espionage act. In 2007, kerrey ought to begin the first the official to publicly confirm and detail the bush a ministration to use of waterboarding. As time has passed and as september 11 has moved farther and farther back into history, i think ive changed my mind. I think waterboarding is probably something we should not be doing. Why do you say that now . Because we are americans and we are better than that. John kiriakou supporters say he has been unfairly targeted in the Obama Administrations crackdown on government whistleblowers. In a statement urging president obama to commute the sentence, a group of signatories including attorneys and former cia officers said prosecutor neil macbride, the u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of virginia, defended the governments handling of the case. As the judge just said in court, todays sentence should be a reminder to every individual who works for the government, who comes into the possession of closely held, Sensitive Information regarding the National Defense or the and dignity of a covert agent, that it is credible that information remain secure and not spill out into the Public Domain or be shared with others who do not have authorized access to it. John kiriakou joins us from washington, d. C. He spent 14 years as an analyst and case officer of the cia. In 2002, he led the team that found abu zubaydah. He is father of five. In 2010, he published a memoir titled, the reluctant spy my secret life in the c. I. A. s war on terror. And were joined by one of his attorneys, jesselyn radack, the director of National Security and human rights of the Government Accountability project. Shias a former ethics adviser to the u. S. Department of justice. We reached out to the u. S. Attorneys office for the Eastern District of virginia, but they declined our request for an interview. John kiriakou, what are you going to jail . Explain the peace deaplea did ye with the government. First of all, thank you for the opportunity to explain. I am going to prison ostensibly for violating the intelligence identities protection act of 1982. I believe and my supporters believe this was not a case about leaking, but torture. I believe im going to prison because i blew the whistle on torture. I have been a thorn in the side of cia since that interview in 2007, in which i said waterboarding was torture and was official u. S. Government policy. I think finally the Justice Department caught up with me. Jesselyn radack, let me bring you into the conversation to explain what the intelligence attendees protection act is. Your client, John Kiriakou, it has been invoked in his case for the first time in 27 years . That is correct. In fact, there have only been to the convictions under the intelligence identities protection act, which was enacted to prevent cases like philip agee, not things like John Kiriakou. It was to prevent the revealing of covert identities for profit or to aid the enemy. In this case, john confirmed the name of a torturer to a journalist, which makes no mcbrides stamen all the more hypocritical because the biggest leaker of classified information, including sources and methods and under cover identities, have been u. S. Government. John kiriakou, explain what it is you were trying to expose. Explain what you were involved with, talk about abu zubaydah, your involvement in the finding of him, and then the course you took, where your conscience took the. Sure. In 2002, and was the chief counterterrorism of operations for the cia in pakistan. My job was to try to locate al qaeda fighters were Al Qaeda Leaders and capture them to turn them over to the Justice Departments and have them face trial. That was the original idea, not to have them sit in cuba for the next decade. But we caught abu zubaydah. He was shot three times by Pakistani Police as he was tried to escape from his safe house. I was the first person to have custody of him, to sit with him. We spoke to each other extensively. We talked about everything from september 11 to poetry he had been writing to his family. Then he was moved on to a secret prison after that. Once i got back to headquarters, i heard he had been subject to harsh techniques, then called enhanced interrogation techniques, and i was asked by one of the leaders in this tsas Counterterrorism Center if i wanted to be trained in these of these techniques. I told them i had a moral problem with them and did not want to be involved. Fast forward to 2007, by then, humanrights watch and in this international have reported al qaeda prisoners had been tortured and abc news called and said that they had information that i had tortured abu zubaydah. I said it was absolutely untrue and was the only person who was kind to zubaydah and had never tortured anyone. They asked me to go on their show and defend myself. I did that. And in the course of the interview, i said that not only was the cia torturing prisoners, but it was official u. S. Government policy, not the result of some roads cia officer just beating up a prisoner every once in awhile. This was official policy that went to the president of the United States. What happened after that in 2007 want to give the interview . Can you explain what happened to you and your family . Within 24 hours, they cia filed a crimes report with the with the Justice Department saying i revealed classified affirmation the torture program and asking for an investigation. The Justice Department decided at the time i had not revealed classified information, that the information was already in the Public Domain by immediately within weeks, i was audited by the irs. I have been audited by the irs every single year since giving that interview in 2007. But a more important bit of fallout from the interview was that every time i would write an oped, to the Television Interview or a speech, the cia would file a crumbs report against me, accusing me of leaking classified information. Each time the Justice Department determined i did not leak classified a permission. In fact, i would get the speeches and opeds cleared in advance. Then they started harassing my wife, with the time was a senior cia officer. Particularly an oped had written. They accused her of secretly leaking information to me. I said i had on the information from two upi reports and a south American Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Then they would back off rid this became our life. We would be under fbi surveillance, should be called in to the cas office of security, i would have trouble getting security clearance when i went to capitol hill. It became this pattern of harassment. Why didnt you stop . Because i think that torture is something that needs to be discussed. I said that in 2007. This is something was to be having a National Debate about. Frankly, i have a First Amendment right to free speech. Writing an oped is that against the law, giving a speech about torture or the arab spring is down against the law. I did not want to be cowed. I did not want to be frightened into silence by the cia. John kiriakou, you said in these instances you have named, youre charged with espionage . Any talk about the significance of the espionage act . Ridgeway i was charged with three counts of espionage by the government. It sounds silly, but im still personally offended by these charges, which were dropped, of course. The espionage charge is used as a hammer by the administration to force people into silence. My as in osh charge is related to a conversation that i had with a New York Times reporter. The reporter said he was writing a story about a colleague of mine and i gave him the interview. I said the call it was a great guy. The unsung hero of the abu zubaydah operation, terrific officer. The reporter said, do you know how i can get in touch with them question i said, no, but i think i might have his Business Card. I gave the reporter the Business Card. Reminded, this is a cia officer who had never been under cover. His Business Card showed he was involved as a cia contractor and it had his personal email and cellphone number. I gave the reporter the Business Card and was charged with two counts of espionage. I later give the same Business Card to another journalist who was in the article and was charged with a third count. What is it you allege the cia was doing for all of these years . Explain the torture program that you were trying to expose. Sure. There was Something Like 10 different techniques that were used in the cas torture program. They went from the benign where an officer would grab a prisoner by the lapels and give him a shake all the way up to the really rough things weve heard about like waterboarding or, what i think is worse, sleep deprivation, or the cold cell. They put a prisoner naked in a sell chilled to 45 or 50 degrees, and then throw ice water on them. I think those are worse than waterboarding. These are techniques that we have condemned in other countries the japanese did this during the second world war, the belgians did in africa earlier in the century, the chinese and vietnamese did it. These are techniques we have always said were crimes against humanity. It was the after september 11 everything changed and we some how had license to do the same things we have been condemning. I thought that was wrong. Former director petraeus made a statement in october when i agreed to take a plea to make these other charges go away, and he said that my conviction shows that we have to take our oaths scarcely breathed my oath was to the constitution and i took this years leave. I put my right hand up and swore to uphold the constitution. To me, torture is unconstitutional and it is something we should not be in the business of doing. John kiriakou, i want to play, as president obama made four years ago shortly before he took office about whether cia officials involved in torture should be prosecuted. He appeared on abc news this week. I dont believe anyone is above the law. But i also have a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backward. Part of my job is to make sure that, for example, at the cia, he had extraordinarily talented people who are working very hard to keep americans safe. I dont want them to suddenly feel like they have got to spend all of their time looking over their shoulders. So no 9 11 Commission Independent we have not made final decisions, but my instinct is to focus on how we make sure moving forward we are doing the right thing. That was president obama speaking for years ago to abc. John kiriakou, your response . I supported the president s response. I remember that interview. I thought, ok, he is right. There are hardworking, talented men and women at the cia who need to be protected. But at the same time, it is one thing to look forward, is another thing to look forward just for the torturers. It is not fair. It is not fair to the american people. If we are going to make prosecutions or initiate prosecutions, those prosecutions to not just big is the people who blew the whistle on the torturer, who oppose the torture. We have not even investigated the torturers. We have not initiated any actions against the people who conceived of the torture and implemented the policy, or against the man who destroyed evidence of the torture or against the attorneys who used specious legal arguments to justify the torture. If we are moving forward, lets do so, the two cannot target one or two people who blew the whistle. John kiriakou, the of spoken about witnessing a new Foreign Service officers been confirmed. Foreign Service Officers who were previously with the cia and participated in acts of torture. Can you explain what happened and explain its significance . When i was a senior investigator on the Senate Foreign relations committee, i was approached by journalist who said he had evidence the cia was misusing its cover agreement with the state department to place people involved in the torture program under state Department Cover so their names could not be exposed to the press. And if the names were exposed in the press, the people giving the names would be subject to the intelligence identities protection act. Again, this was a violation of the cia, state Department Cover agreement. I sent a letter under senator john kerry a signature asking the cia for clarification. I got a response about six weeks later that was classified top secret, so i was not permitted to see the response. I did not have topsecret clearance at the time. A colleague of mine told me the letter essentially said in a strongly worded language, to mind my own business. When we come back from break, we want ask about president obamas nominee to become the next head of the cia, john brennan. As you talk about the administration, were actually talking about the ministrations from the bush a ministration to the Obama Administration. Our guest is about to go to jail, John Kiriakou, about to serve 2. 5 years in jail. This will be one of his last interviews before he goes to prison. Were also joined by jesselyn radack, who is one of his attorneys. Stay with us. [music break] this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. Were going to talk about john brennan. President obama is nominee to become the next chief of the cia. The News Agency Reuters is reporting that brennan had detailed information on the agencys torture program was serving their under president george w. Bush. Official records apparently show brennan received regular internal cia updates about the progress of torture techniques including waterboarding. It is not clear if he raised any objections at the time he was made aware. Brennans confirmation hearing will be february 7. In 2006 to give an interview with frontline on pbs where he said it was right for the Bush Administration to take off the gloves after the 9 11 attacks. The campaign against terrorism will be a long one. The opposition, whether be al qaeda or iraq, it does not play by the queens three rules. Therefore, the u. S. Has to take off the gloves. I think it is appropriate. We do have to take off the gloves in some areas, but in the right way and for the right reason. And with full understanding of what the consequences of that might be. That was john brennan in 2006. When president obama was first elected in his first term, he wanted john brennan to be his director of central intelligence. There was such an outcry in the Human Rights Community that john brennan told his name out. Four years later, president obama has officially nominated john brennan once again to head the cia. Our guest, John Kiriakou, it is about to go to jail or a sentenced to 30 months in prison, worked for the cia. There while john brennan was there. Can you respond to what john brennan knew, when he knew it, and the fact that president obama wants him to be head of the cia . Opposite, i cannot read John Brennans mind, but i can say at the time the torture techniques for being implemented, john brennan was president bushs director of the national Counterterrorist Center. He was also, a little earlier than that, the deputy executive director. I believe executive director of the cia, the no. 3 ranking position in the cia. He would have had to have been intimately involved not necessarily in carrying out the torture techniques, but in the policy, the torture policy. Either that or he had to be brain dead because you cannot be in positions like that, director of the match for Counterterrorist Center and executive director of the cia without knowing what the cias torture policies are. I am frankly surprised also at the fact there is doubt outrage in the Human Rights Community now that mr. Brennans. There was a great human cry in 2009 when he was initially floated for the position of cia director. Im not sure why there is a difference between four years ago and now. John brennan certainly has not changed. John kiriakou, i want to read a comment made by the judge to your sentencing hearing. Judge bring, sentenced to to 30 months in prison last friday saying John Kiriakou, can you comment on that statement . Sure. When judge brink of not accepted the plea deal in october, she called 30 months fair and appropriate. I can only think that with a courtroom packed full of journalists last friday, she decided to seize the moment and make a statement that would be carried in the papers. I don would change between october and january other than the fact she and the prosecution had had several expert to communications, meaning the prosecutors were able to meet with the judge related to my case without the defense, my attorneys, being present. So we have no idea what it was the prosecution told the judge. We were not allowed to defend ourselves. The judge denied 75 motions that we made asking for declassification information so i could present a defense in august of 2012, after our motions have been denied, my attorneys and i walked out of the courtroom and my attorney said, we have no defense. She wont let us say anything. She wont let us defend you. We were forced into plea negotiations. Im not sure why the judge changed position between october and january eco explain what it is like in the courtroom when the prosecutor can come forward and speak privately with the judge without your Defense Attorneys being there. I had never heard of such a thing before. In august we made are 75 motions. We thought the judge would block got two days to hear the 75. In fact, there have been a conversation with the prosecution, so she blocked off and our to the 75 motions. We knew we were in trouble. At the very start of the hearing, the prosecutor got up and said that he was requesting a rule 4 conversation. I did not know what it was. My attorneys and objected and said, if you dont want the defendant here, at least allow us to hear so we can represent his interests. The judge said, no, this is a National Security case. I am allowed private conversation with the prosecutors. We could hear them whispering from the bench for the prosecutors came back and the judge said, all 75 motions are denied. And that was the end of it. We got up and walked out of court. My attorney said, we have to negotiate a plea. It was extremely disheartening. Jesselyn radack, i want ask about the legal implications of this case and how it fits into the treatment of government whistleblowers under the Obama Administration. Absolutely. To get to the point you just raise with john, i think the reason the judge changed her opinion between october and last week is because the government submitted a secret statement that john was not allowed to see, the play a large role in the sentencing hearing but neither the public nor the defendant were allowed to see the statement, which is very [indiscernible] in the grander scheme, the prosecution of John Kiriakou and the war on whistleblowers using the heavy handed espionage act by charging people who dared to tell the truth as being enemies of the state, since a very chilling message. Judge brinkema herself a knowledge a strong message had to be sent, that secrets must be kept. But apparently, that only applies to people were trying to reveal government abuses and illegalities because all of the people in the white house and the cia revealed classified information of undercover activities to the maker of the hollywood film zero dark thirty have done so with impunity and with lavish praise for the weight, can you say specifically what youre talking about . Specifically, the white house and the cia were very involved in the making of zero dark thirty, which pretends to be some kind of neutral film that implies torture led to the capture of osama bin laden, which it absolutely did not. In that process, a highlevel Defense Department official, michael vickers, reveal the identity of an Undercover Special Operations Command officer, but was not held to account for that. The cia revealed numerous classified pieces of information, including sources and methods. So when the United States talks about the sanctity of keeping secrets that the judge and multiple statements by u. S. Officials discussed that, they are the biggest leakers of all. And they do so with impunity. I want to talk about another whistleblower targeted by the Obama Administration who has been former National Secure the agency in nationalist, thomas drake. He worked for the nsa before blowing the whistle. He appeared on democracy now last march. The incredible thing i discovered was not just the massive fraud, waste, and abuse, but also the fact the nsa chose to ignore a 23year legal regime called the foreign Intelligence Surveillance act. At the time i was in the nsa and in the military during the latter part of the cold war, one thing you did not do was the First Amendment at nsa, you do not spy on americans. What did you find . Without a warrant. Much to my horror, they had tossed out that legal regime. The excuse of 911, which i told was exigent circumstances apply. For the purpose of dragnet, blanket electronic surveillance. That was thomas trick. He was one of your clients. Of what happened to him . I represent both thomas drake and John Kiriakou. The government dropped all felony counts against thomas drake and he pled guilty to a misdemeanor the equivalent of a parking ticket. I find it appalling the two men who revealed the biggest scandals of the Bush Administration, namely warrantless wiretapping and torture, are the only two who have been criminally prosecuted for it and not the people who secretly surveiled the communications of americans and not the people who were involved in the torture program, all of whom have been conferred immunity by either the president or by acts of congress. John kiriakou, the president is now president obama. Did you see a change between president obama and his predecessor, president bush, and also when youre talking about john brennan, do you think he should be the head of the cia . What message do think that sense and what has changed in the four years when he withdrew his name for consideration . In 2010 when my book came out, i was giving a speech on los angeles. A woman asked me a question about the difference between president obama and president bush. And i will never forget it because the question was so crazy. She said, can you explain this tsas position on the jihadization for a policy under obama . I said, maam, with all due respect, president obamas Foreign Policy is an extension of president bushs Foreign Policy. If theres any difference at all, president obama is killing more people overseas than president bush ever did. So, no, i dont think theres any difference between the bush Foreign Policy and the obama Foreign Policy, which i think is a shame. There was a wonderful opportunity to take a different path and to reclaim our position as a moral leader in the world. I am disappointed in that. With regard to john brennan, ive known him since 1990. I worked directly for john brennan twice. I think he is a terrible choice to lead the cia. I think it is time for the cia to move beyond the ugliness of the postseptember 11 regime, and we need someone who is going to respect the constitution and not be bogged down by a legacy of torture. I think president obamas upon of john brennan sends the message to all americans. You worked with him, directly for him. Did he receive internal updates regularly about the torture techniques including waterboarding, as orders is reporting . I worked for him when he was an analytic manager. It was before he really hit the big time. But again, i think it is impossible for him not to have gotten these briefings, for him not to have been intimately involved in the policy by virtue of his senior position. Some of the senior most positions in the cia, it is impossible he did not know what was going on. John kiriakou, you will be going to prison shortly. T know exactly when your prison sentence will begin . How are you preparing for this . Youre the father of five children. I dont know exactly when this will be. It will be sometime in the next four to six weeks i will have to report to a prison somewhere. I dont know where. Frankly, it is very hard to prepare. You have to do things like a range power of attorney, a range child care. I mean, theres so many things to do that is just overwhelming. My wife, thank god, is very strong and tough and very supportive. We are treating this like temporary duty overseas. It was not unusual for me to go overseas for many months at a time, sometimes as long as two years at a time, 2. 5 years. So were treating this like overseas deployment. I can call my children virtually every day. If im close enough, they can visit me. Im hoping for the best. How old are your kids . Oxfam two sons for 1916, and my wife and i have three children, and eightyear old boy, 6year old girl, and 1yearold boy. What do they understand . They know ive been involved in a fight with the fbi for the last year. I told them, you know i have been fighting the fbi and unfortunately, i lost. So because i lost my punishment is im going to have to go away for a couple of years and i am going to try to teach bad guys how to get their highschool diplomas. And when im all done with that, i will come home and we will live as a family and everything will be ok. John kiriakou, what advice would you give to whistle blowers now . I made mistakes in my case. I would say, first, go to the chain of command which i did not do and should have done. I would say, if you get no satisfaction and that, go to the congressional oversight committees but do not remain silent. If you see waste, fraud, or illegalities, shouted from the rooftop. We have to leave it there. Thank you for being with us, John Kiriakou. [captioning made possible by democracy now ] democracy now ]