Transcripts For WHUT Charlie Rose 20131026

You know, i care about it being faithful to the book, and it is very faithful to the story. It is just well done, very moving at times, you know, you get choked up occasionally, you get scared occasionally. It is a courtroom drama. Rose , you know, a couple of things about history, as i mentioned in the introduction, it was not a huge best seller time to kill when it first came out. They printed 5,000. Rose 5,000. Hardback copies and no more. Rose and then after the next one, and then the firm, everybody wants to see if there is anything else in the closet. The firm was 18 months after time to kill, and became a best killer and rekindled interest in time to kill we still couldnt get books printed but pelican brief came out and finally the time to kill began selling, and in and in the first wave of movies came in 1994, i remember looking at the New York Times best seller list and the movies of the firm, pelican brief and client has just been released in the previous twelve months, and they were all big movies, and so all those books were back in paperback. The novel in 1994 was the chamber, in hard book back, it was number one, time to kill was number one in paper so we had like four or five books in the top of the list, i think this is pretty crazy stuff, but time to kill was outselling all of them eventually, finally. Rose why is that . Is it the root of all of them this is it sort of the i mean it clearly was the first. Is it you know what people say, i mean, you discovered magic in a bottle there, you know, at the beginning, but, you know, what you have is man against the system. Sure. Rose the loner. It is the story. Rose small town lawyer. Very dramatic story. A father whose little girl get raped and takes matter into his own hands. Rose tell me, describe jake for me. Rose who is jake . Well, when i srted writing jake 30 years ago, he was very autobiographical. Rose he was you . Well, pretty much so, yeah, because he and i live rose you in what way . Well i am a small town lawyer in mississippi, struggling to find more clients and plenty of competitors. Rose a little bit of politics. A little bit of politics, a beautiful young wife, having babies and dreams and all of this kind of stuff and wondering if the law was going to be our ticket to where we wanted to go. Rose in mississippi. That, politics, but just the daily grind of trying to eke out a living in a small town street lawyer. It is tough. Not just in the south, all over america, there is competition, as i said the competition is pretty fierce. Rose what was he like . What did he think . What made him mad . You know, rose loyal to his wife. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, in a very honest, upstanding guy who might funnel a little bit on the rules because the other guys are fudging but not much. Ethical, honest, a big dreamer, wants something bigger, he wants to be a trial lawyer, wanting a big trial, a big high profile, big dream rose you are talking about a big case where everybody is watching. And he got it. He got it. Thats what i wanted to do. Never got that far. Rose you wanted also about halfway through that career, i got the bug to write, and so i was still about 30 years old when i got this bug to write what became a time to kill. Rose but a time to kill was based on some story you knew. Oh, yeah a couple of stories i heard about. It inlved trials i knew about, i heard about through, you know, the local lower. And i pieced together this plot and i said this will be a very compelling courtroom drama, but if you take issue of what would a father do if he got if he decided to get his own revenge what would happen . And how would a jury react to it an that was the big issue. Rose and they let him off . Well, they didnt in the time to kill, i a i am not sure i think they could probably do that 30 years ago. I am not sure about today. Tremendous amount of sympathy for the dad, and. Rose and done you bad and you ought to have some form of revenge. Somebody raped your little girl it will drive you crazy, yeah. Rose all right. So there is a time to kill which is now, was made into a movie and now been made into a play so it has been a novel, a movie and now a play. Uhhuh. Rose and the damned interesting play we say, watching the premiere, you watched it i havent seen it yet. Sycamore row, which is sycamore row, which is a place where what happens . Well three years after a time to kill. Rose jake is back on the case. Jake has another big trial, and it is back in clanton, 1988. Four cellphones, bent it is hard to write that now, there is no google so we go back to the dark ages of 1988 and jake has another big trial and rose jake has not been fabulous since he time to kill. Jake is still struggling, he worries he had his pinnacle and big moment. He wants the next big case. And the klan burns his wife down so he and his wife are living in a cramped rent house because rental house because they are suing the insurance company, he is still a good guy and dreaming and all of that but things didnt turn out the way he thought they might after the hayley trial he got paid nine hundred bucks for hayley and lost his house, almost lost his he gave his Closing Argument in a time to kill in the bar suit because he was, borrowed suit because he is out of everything and here he is threeyear later, still struggling and still trying to catch up to where he was. Rose right. And suddenly he has a real big case. Rose and this is a very interesting story because you have got this guy who had a bunch of money. Yeah. Rose he is found hung. Uhhuh. Rose and we think maybe the caretaker . Kind of well, the opening chapter is a guy commits suicide and dying of cancer and in tremendous pain, 71 years old. Rose hangs himself. He hangs himself, and that happened on a sunday morning when jake gets to the office on monday in the mail, he receives a letter from this guy who just killed himself, never met him. Rose right. And the guy says i want you to represent my estate, i have a lot of money and nobody knows about it and here is my last will and testament, all handwritten. I cut out my family. Rose exactly. I dont want my kids to get anything and i am leaving everything to my black housekeeper jake doesnt know these people and they are from another art of the county and the guy it turns out was incredibly secret about his money, dealings, assets and all of that and so jake suddenly has this mystery and in has a very big case and in mississippi, as in many states will contest or play out before juries. And so here we go. We go down this rose the housekeeper versus the family. Yeah. So off we go in a trial with all of the scheming and co conniving and back stabbing and throat cutting. Rose are you happy i want goes to trial you have written a lot of other things but are you happiest in is that when you are getting up in the morning and you are going to write about a trial . Not really. No . Charlie, most trials are pretty dull. Rose really . And if you do it accurately you see a lot of stuff on television in movies, it is not that accurate and they get by with it and they have to do it to jazz it up but when you write about a trial, civil or criminal, most of them they take enormous amounts of time and you cant just sit there as a writer page after page after page of dull testimony, whatever so you have got to kind of you have to keep the pages turning and writing about trials, it is pretty challenging. I dont really like to do that. Rose not very many perry mason moments . You cant create them and in real life, no it doesnt happen that way. And you just cant write a lot of litigation. It is not a whole lot of fun. Some of before you get to trial, some of the maneuvering by the lawyer and all of that kind of stuff can be very compelling and fun to read, but the actual courtroom stuff, jury deliberations is just not that interesting, and tough to make it interesting. Rose back to the time to kill i want to take a look at this. Did you have anything to do with the casting of sebastian and tom and all of these people . Nothing . Nothing. No, once i read Rupert Holmes play i said this works, i would love to see this play go. Okay . We signed a contract at some point and i dont even know what is in the contract and they took off with it, rupert did all the work and writing and here we are. Rose okay. So this is a play where Karl Lee Hayley played by john daly asked his attorney jake, played by sebastian a sell lsu what he would have done if it had been his daughter who was raped and almost killed. Take a look at this. If this were your daughter, what would you do . I dont know, i dont know what i would do. Kill him . I am sure i would want to. You are from california. You just told me you would do it. Black men dont get to kill black boys. Hey, hey, hey, this is a white county. With a little luck i will get a all white jury. Most jury would give me a prize. And it is different from me . It would be much harder to win in a courtroom. You could get me off . Listen, maybe not. And i would be home playing my hand while while you are signing who is going to watch out for your daughter then . I just got one question, will you meet me jail, at the jail when they arrest me . There is also this. Politics in washington. Last time you were here you were a little bit disappointed by washington, you must be really disappointed by now. You know, i watched the circus in washington and i keep thinking, there has got to be a good novel here somewhere, a really good political novel that i would love to write, but i havent found the story yet. There is so much there are so many bad guys and idiots, you, it is almost lake you are picking on them because they are so helpless. Rose you dont need to do this, to write a good political story. One thing that bugs me not, about washington is just not the gridlock into between the two parties and both of them are guilty, it is the rise of the lobbying class and this huge amount of money that is being paid to lobbyists to manipulate the government. You know, you have to really wonder and ask, is this a democracy anymore . This is like a pseudo democracy, because. Half of the people are not even registered, those who are registered only half of those go vote and the one who do vote, how many are led astray by, you know, slick campaigns and all of that and once they elect these people to congress, you know, they immediately consume with the lobbyist whose have the big checkbooks and wonder are we really getting a Representative Government . And those are the things i think about and how could you have some fun with that in a novel . I dont know. I am still working on it. Great to have you. Always fun. Rose back in a moment, stay with us. And what you are also trying to feel at this point is you have to ensure at this point that you are still pushing into the ground, because we want to create that couple of forces inbetween the feet that are going to end up being allowing us to create more power in the through swing, from that into position, i am just combining the take away with the body tilting and the held not moving. Rose sean foley is here, he is widely regarded as one of the best golf instructors if not the best in the game. His clients include four of the top 25 players in the world, lee westwood, justin rose and tiger woods. Rose won the uh u. S. Open in june. His he was on the cover of i am pleased to have sean foley at this table for the first time, welcome. I am plead to be here, thanks, charlie. Rose when did you know you wanted to be a golf instructor or a coach as you call it. At a young age i looked at what my dad was doing and what my neighbors were doing, and i look at these guys who went to a golf course every day, everyone loved them and respected them and basically just sat on a driving range and helped people, so at a young age some of the canadian greats i got to be a part of and i owe it all to my father, Jack Mclaughlin from British Columbia who was just in the canadian hall of fame and ben kern who but sponsored on the pga tour by lee trevino and a disciple and best friends with george newt on the, so you look to my mentor, when i was 13 or 14, butch harmon and David Ledbetter were there and i was thinking that is what i want to do and i think when i say that to my dad, he perceived i was thinking of greg norman, but it wasnt the case. So i mean, all of the teacher da rose you liked the life they had, David Ledbetter. My whole life is the search for the perfect shot. Putting and chipping, i dont find it sexy, i recognize its place in the game and its importance but a lot of the current statistics that are coming out of, i work with a professor of columbia named dr. Rose in is a great story. He is doing the numbers. Yes. He is doing the numbers, he just wrote a book i wrote the foreword for that every shot counts and he shows without a doubt, i mean, without a doubt the old adage of drive for show, putt for dough is not true and if you look at, you know, if you look at the top ten ballstrikers in the world they kind of average about 14 method the world ranking, okay, if you look at the top ten putters in the word they average about 62, the big difference, especially with the courses getting bigger and bigger one of the Main Elements is being able to hit it far, not so much accurate, but far and second rough is not the way it used to be, it is not as long but secondary to that is from 175 to 250 yards is really the difference between the weak and the strong. So if someone that much better of a putter at a world class level as the guy number one number 100 that could be a stroke, or a half a stroke, but if you look attiring woods or rose or mcelroy or any of those players, how they hit it very the guy who is 100th in the ballstriking stat is quite a bit different because remember putting is not about power and not being able to create trajectories to the moon to have long irons land soft and if you look at the dominating players of alltime, jack, nick clause, tiger woods, for a few year Johnny Miller they were all able to get the most out of their long irons and hit the ball the highest. Rose so they could hit the ball the highest so drop on the green from 180 to 215 yards . And, you know, with some of my players to get them to hit it furnish further i have this radar device i use a track van and actually looking at their landing angles because pretty much for every degree in landing angle that i start losing, so 40 think, 39, to 38, 38 to 37 i am getting one or two more yards in roll so if i can get a way the way i look at golf, charlie and i am not original, this but pretty up in taught to me by so many people but i couldnt take five hours and say thank you, is i was flat surface of varying loft hitting around object and that is the gist of it so people say, well, who is someone you like that you dont coach . I love to watch jim hit balls because he is as precise as a surgeon and sure aesthetically the style is iffy, the style but the dynamics have led him to be fourth on the alltime money list. So, you know, if you watch from hip high to him high, hip high, it comes in almost as high as snead, nicholas, you will never see anyone who is good through what maps. Tters. Rose hip high, down swing here to here . Yes. So there really is no method when someone says that is a perfect back swing i mean for who . No ones torso is the same length, no ones shoulders rotate the same amount and we are all unique and have our own physiological thumb point so trying to match the geometry to the unique quality that the person brings, so one of the still litigate arguments that is made is why dont you go back to the swing tiger had in 2,000 . Well, tiger is 37. Rose and physically he has been through 40 surgeries who is the same physically at 37 as at 23 . So we are having to evolve and adapt darwinian in that way to keep moving forward and keep moving forward. Rose but this is the game in which you have spent most of your life. Absolutely. Rose and, therefore, if you will end the, you are in the game you want to do it and understand it better than anybody else alive. The best i can. Rose the best you can exactly, at least approach that or other buy what is life about if you cant approach it as good as you can. I want to come back to what you learned about the swing but lets take tiger because this is the subject of this article and the subject of so many articles, whether you are involved or not. Because tiger has gone through, you know, at least four important coaches, butch harmon, hang haney and now you, hank haney and his father, what did earl do . Lets start there. Well, i would expect lay, i havent spoke much about it with tiger but i read the book that was written and i think what he did is he just, you know, people perceive like tiger was the one begging to go to the golf course, it wasnt him getting schooled and your narcotic saying you are going. Rose he wasnt trying to make something he was not. Not at all, but i mean you are looking at a guy wh who wasa green beret, he was a good athlete and played baseball in college and became quite a good golfer quite quickly so i think, you know, earl probably is like, from what i have heard in people who knew him, he was kind of a mystic in a way that, you know, he created a creative, competitive environment for tiger so it wasnt sitting in front of a mirror making perfect swings, it was okay lets see who can make the most fivefoot putts and make the ball back up the most on the green and lets see who can hit the highest hook so he was he is just playing and playing and playing and if you look back to the model of anna ma sorry, intelligence in children so i think that one thing that tiger has always done is he always had, even when he is on the range hitting balls, he always had an intent in the shot, so whereas a lot of people mistake your intention and your attention so peoples intention is to make, is to stand a good shot but then their attention is on every piece of their swing. So if my intention is to change, to better my swing, then my attention can be on mechanics and being in a block mindset where i am verbally cognizant instead of autonomous of where i am hitting shots or watch these guys out of trees, thats when they are the most entry but it is pretty obvious what you have to do. So i think all earl did is just set up this environment for this just unbelievable super learner of an individual to grow the most in. Rose he is an analyst of the game . He studies the game . It is fascinating. I have never been able to stump him on almost any question of who won a major, who won this tournament or who or who won, you know, i read a quote by tiger years ago that said golf needs to be courted slowly, and i thought, that is so spirit july, like in reading his interviews from back in the day, it was like susan guy, you know, he was painting really, but it has been fascinating, it has been a pleasure. He really is a fantastic guy to work with. Rose staying with tiger but at the same time you also have a lot of other good players. Wonderful players. Rose i mentioned lee weapons wood, i mentioned justin rose, i mentioned even t the point where it is said look, he came to you and you didnt have time to do anything with him, because you cant take on too many, because the ones you have, who have been there for you, you will do a disservice to. Arthur may hannahan has been five years that is a long courtship in coaching an individual game and justin has been over four, this is the kind of right now it would be the start of three years with tiger so. So i like luke and he is a class act and he is a great player and i believe that i can help him, but, you know, the issue was that i only have so much time. I am not trying to spend more time away from my family and if i couldnt do the job that i mean i am already at the course 13 hour a day at a tour event so i didnt know where i am going to fit. So i have always created these relationships through a lot of hard work and hard times and good times, but in golf, it is like eight out of ten hard times, two out of ten good times. Rose tell me what it is you do for an outstanding golfer. Obviously, when they come to me, you know, they have always come to me, you know, where they were struggling so i started hunt we are his short game and then it moved into full swing and justin rose had been sixth in the world and fallen to 82nd and tiger was struggling with his game in 2010, so when people go, you know, you are going to change their swing, you cant change you studied enough about the brain to know there is not going to be any change of the swing. You are going to insulate your neural circuits and what have you, motor memory, but more than anything, it is just being able to sit there because what confuses them is where they feel things happening, the time frame is so small, that they almost couldnt come up with a rational understanding of what it is. So a lot of times, it is honestly just sitting there and saying, you know, why are you aiming 30 yards left right now . I am feeling this, why am i feeling that . Why are you aiming 30 yards left . I am doing that 15 . You are always doing that. Or situations like that, so i am trying to you know, they cocome with questions and i 32 toy provide answers with them but a lot of the time, it actually just is making sure that i am not harming them because to help them improve, people say, you took justin from 82nd to third in the world well his wife is bart of the team and his caddy is part of the time and short game instructor is part of the time and sports psychologist is part of the time so it is a cab rative effort, collaborative effort but he had been sixth in the world so all i am. Doing is show them things he they can already do they just didnt know they could do it, it is different from taking a tenyearold girl who loses in the semifinal of the u. S. Amateur where you taught her how to grip the club and stand, that iis is developing and athlete but, you know, all the people who came to john wood or come to me or these type of coaches i mean john wood certainly didnt teach kareem abdul how to play basketball but you talk to how his players and learned how to tie the shoelaces right and just look at the process of the process of performance, which is all these little minute steps that are going to lead up to, and in some way, some want to tell me about every shot, others dont want to hear me talk for two hours. So just there, really sometimes it is a sounding board and sometimes we are really getting in there. Rose you mentioned phil jackson and john wood. They told you, they taught you what . To know what they did . One, you just mentioned with john wood. What did phil jackson teach you . It is different in golf because i am managing trying to help the manage an individual so i am not trying to manage, you know he knows these two players cant be on the court at the same time or not exclusively, zoo it is a little different in team coaching, because he is calling the plays and doing those certain things, but when i hear players talk about those guys, they really just talk about th the ethics ad character of the man and the belief they had in him. So hopefully one day that i will have the same effect. Rose yes. He also has, you know, he has a sense of the game. Sure. Rose he understands and it goes won xs and os. Of course. Rose to explain what winning means and what competition means. Yes. And what excellence means. Yes. Rose and that is what comes so that, you know, it is understanding the difference between, one, being able to may the game and be able to, you know, take your talent to a higher level. And understand the mental aspect of it. Yes, of course a lot of the times it is just about, you know, it is about saying like what i said to justin rose, the morning on the sunday of the u. S. Open. Rose what did you say . I just, you know, i got up in the morning and i was staying with hunter that week so hunter and i talked and i sent tying ear note and i sent rose a note and i just said remember, justin, today is a super important day. So dont lets not pretend we are back at lake nona, we are at the u. S. Open. Rose and we could win. And face the fact we are there because it is going to take at that lot of energy to pretend you are somewhere you are not so accept it, you know, be on board, and said to roger federer, i think pressure is a privilege and. Rose i believe that too. When tiger came looking what did he say to you . He called me. He got my number from sean ohare and he called me and i think i told him that i would call him right back because i was putting my son to sleep. And that is not true. Rose . He had been sleeping i just needed a minute because i always had been a huge fan of tiger, and will always be, so i aked to like just take a second, i wasnt i wasnt like totally out of my mind, but i needed to just kind of gather myself a little bit. Because it is a huge honor. And then we just, you know, talked about, you know rose but he was aware of what you had done for other players that had attracted him to you . He said that, yes. And to be honest with you charlie, you know, tiger this year was, you know, player of the year, won the money list, won the scoring title, won five times, there is probably 15 to 20 golf coaches in the world who could help tiger as well. It is not garb there is plenty of people but for the most part, look, these guys hit every shot, they deal with noise, bad bounces and read every putt and judge the wind on every put shot, so a coach in golf is not going to be established by his record. I cant run out on to the eighth hole and like phil jackson grab Michael Jordan and tell him what he needs. I cant tell hunter or justin get your chinup, you lose a perspective right now in this round, i cant do that. Or i cant run out and say, hey, look, everyone has hit an eight iron here and all coming up short. So it is not really coaching like, i cant speak to them. Rose so what can you do . Well, i can help them in practice and then i can help them, you know i can help them on the range but the game is played on the court course, in the tournament so it is a unique style, it is friendship and instruction. Rose but just to understand, you said you are in search of the perfect swing. Yes, perfect shot. Rose perfect shop but i mean the perfect swing goes from here to here, whatever happens before that might influence it. Sure. Rose couric is different from tiger woods which is different than. Greg norman rose but they all end up with how the club head hits the ball. Yes, yes. So we are trying to manage, obviously, the orientation of the face, so where the face is pointed, either rig or left, people say open or close but you can say right or left, you know, the club faces is determining, at least three quarters of the balls initial direction with amid iron, up to 85 percent with a trough, 90 percent with a putter so when the tv analyst says he hooked his putt, the path is not making the ball hook, he just pulled wit a club face. The balls come pretty close off to a 90degree a angle and we are trying to manage the downward path of the golf club and then the circle you know, kind of the circle that the sweet spot is moving on, whether it is going across the ball or out and across the ball, and, you know, the most important thing for me to manage on the track is where it says spin axis, so spin axis is giving me a number and degrees of how much the ball is tilted on the axis so how much it is curving to the left zero or right. So as technical as all that sounds, all i am trying to do is manage the movement of the sweet spot and the duration of the swing. And that is really all i am trying to do. Rose tiger, i will stay with this a minute because i am fascinating by this, fascinated by this too, mac grady, did he speak to you . Did you learn from him . No, i never had the opportunity to meet mac. Rose you know what he has written. Yes but none of that stuff is published. I have actually seen a little bit of the stuff and mac is fascinating. A lot of the concepts now that are kind of the in thing, you know, mac had recognized long, long, a long time ago. Rose what are the concepts that are the in thing . Well, you know, you watch my guys sometimes and the commentaries say they are coming over the top. Rose right. But, you know, if the sweet spot is moving down in space on the circle it is also moving out to the right so the reason it looks like they are swinging left is a if i am hitting down on an object and that is moving down it is also moving that way so i have to shift the plane to the left to make sure the path ask, you know, congruent to the golf ball so the first time i noticed that was in the same canadian open that i saw butch and david at, and those guys were hike, you know, when i saw them, i remember the first time i met ledbetter i almost had a heart attack i was just in awe. Rose because he was what you wanted to be . Yes, and like chuck cook is a good friend to me now, but he was he was kind of like my true mentor, i like i really like what he had to say because he was a thinking man and he wasnt just saying put your elbow here and just to put your elbow here. The problem with golf instruction is there is so much opinion in it. And, look, sometimes there is going to be an opinion, so harvey pinnick after teaching golf for 17 years had seriously great opinions so it is not like it has to be we have two things happening now. We have the Scientific Community of teachers who dont really practice good bedside manners and then we have, you know we have the. Rose bedside manner . Look you are trying to get people to change and most people are out where they are at in their life because they come from da freaks anyway so you have to get them to go out to get them better so you have to be able to sell to someone that i know this feels terrible, but if you continue to do this, and if you understand this, you are going to hit some great shots. So most of the time, you know, you have to have a way amount you that allows people to just give themselves to that, so we have these guys who know everything and they call out all the Old School Guys for not knowing this, this, this. But i mean, ben hogan might not have had the science to measure everything, but there is really not anyone today who hits the golf ball like like him. So, you know, dave matthew said in a song once and this really hit me, he said progress takes away from what took prefer to find and i thought, wow, that is pretty deep. You know, soable, i would love to be able to use the new stuff and i wish i had the ability to understand what attracted me when i was 13 and kept swinging in to out to stop the ball from going left that would have been helpful. Rose what do you think of stack and tilt and plumber and bennett . I think andy plumber is arguably to me maybe one of the sharpest minds in golf instruction and you know andy, mike is a friend as well. But i think it is how you go about doing something so i am not going to sit here and tell you that everyone is wrong but us. Rose yes. Does that mean that you follow what andy plumber and Michael Bennett teach. Or think about the swing and the structure of a swing and yeah, i mean, parts. Parts. There is nothing new under the sun and i think they have head d that in the book because all the pictures are from 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, right but they are passionate guys i want to see everyone do well and i also know that our role in them winning charlie is really not that large. And it ignores this them losing but we have to be careful on, you know, coming out and saying that everyone else is wrong and we are the only ones that are right. I believe that some people go against the grain and that is fine, but i would rather just not go with the flow. It is a different mindset. So it is less radical so i am still doing my own thing and learning from them and i am learning from my friends jail lights and young instructors coming up like crisco know and dr. Qwang and brought us all about the ball flight. Rose and the guy over at columbia. Yes. Dr. Brody, with so much of my lessons were chuck cook, davis love, peter costa, elliott, mclean, i dread every single, ernest jones back in the early 1900s came back from the war with no right leg and was just starting to notice off his left leg, in he was a golf pro before he went to war and lost his left, he only had a left leg so if i lost any of my legs i would rather lose my right leg if i am a righthanded player but i like having both because being able to create force inbetween two points on the ground is where i may differ from keeping the weight on the forward foot but i think that when you look at what, you know, what andy or mackerel it is most of it is macs stuff and andy created some of his stuff on top of it. What is a better way to get a beginning againer, beginner into a game, from going from impact, having their hands forward, keep their arms extended and keep their weight moving forward . I think that it is probably the best way to teach beginners. Is it necessary at a pro level . Probably not. Is it athletic enough . Maybe not. But i have Great Respect for anyone making a living out of teaching the game of golf and i will support all of them. Rose those are principles if you want to be here at impact, if you start there, it is a good place to start. I have taught it to a lot of people. I have taught it to a hot of people. Rose what is it that you hope to do with tyinger . Because he has had four operation os ten left knee; is that correct . Yes. Rose therefore, it has to be a different swing because of that. He cant put the same amount of pressure on his left knee, can he . Well, i mean, him and his trainer have done like an unbelievable job as really making that leg. Rose strong. Yes h in she very strong buti mean the thing is, what happens when an athlete gets an injury and there is atrophy, there is always going to be a painain is omnipotent, even if you do it and it doesnt hurt it, it is still omnipotent enough to be, okay, my main job is to protect this human, so, you know, is he you know, thats why i say it is silly to go oh in 2000 if you look at his swing, his flexibility, you know, youth, time to practice, tiger is a very devoted father of two kids and he is a single dad, so golf is not the main priority anymore, but the discussion is still that it is. So, you know, you have to start to work the swing around player. I mean, you know, you look at sam snead at 25 and then you look at him at 50, you know, at 50 it was the first time his swing got short of parallel, it is not because he worked at it because his mobility and stability have rose it was not parallel . That is not even a word in golf it is semantic but he has had a very long back swing, it is not a good or bad thing it is just his unique trait, it is time to produce work which time is a variable for work and thus speed. But as he got older and older and older, you know, the swing got shorter and shorter but that wasnt because he sat in a mirror try trying to make it shorter it is because he doesnt move like a young man so you have to evolve with what you have, with the player, and i have done it with all my guys. Look when i started working with hunter because of how he used to draw the ball with so much rotation he used to sublux ribs up in the scapular area here, this rib cage up here so he would have to get them put back in, rose was on the verge of herniating two disks. Stephen aims had bulged disks. Rose which is not good. Well but the thing is, you ask your back doctor what is the worst thing you can do. Flex. It is golf. There you go. So that is the way it is going to be. But suppose you are what is the difference in a coach and a teacher . I mean, i feel like i coach world class players and i feel like i teach kids. Rose ah. Right . Because what am i teaching tiger woods or justin rose . I mean, sometimes i am charlie rose to them so when you are doing this, what royou thinking about . I am going to give this to the kids or i am just learning. You are charlie rose and asking the kind of questions that i would . Well, yeah. I mean, i want to know. Rose they have to be able to explain what they are thinking, otherwise you cant advise or plus i just want t to to to t to know what they think because they are geniuses so if guy out for the whole day and i spend time with four of them, i mean, i would be completely, you know, bsing people if i said i am not going the most learning. I mean i get to go out and watch the westwood play with polter and scott, and tiger with duffner, you as an interested man in the world and people that get to sit in front of you it is such a great job that way, i spent so much time enjoying watching how someone plays a bunker shot in a tournament watch how someone reacts to gallery noise or watching someone rose . So when you are with these guys you are saying what did that feel like . What were you thinking . Why did you do this that way . Thats part of what you do to get inside what they do now and to understand what they might do differently . Yes. It is just you know, it is to ask the right question, not sitting there preaching answers at them but ask the right questions so that if i ask the right question they are all very, you know i think they are all, you know, golfers are deep individuals to an extent, even if they dont show it on the outside, so there is a lot of time to think and a lot of walks and these guys have been walking all these miles for a long time, so it is just interesting to see, look, when i am watching them i know what is going to happen before it happens, because, really, as human beings we are just patterns, and we dont really change that much from day to day. Maybe our outfit or our clothing but 95 percent of what we do is fairly automated. Rose so what do you say to these people what tiger needs to do is get back to the swing when he was with butch hear on . He cant. Cant do it. Physically cant do it . Phase wise cant do it. Cant snap his back leg back to rotate, you know, so, you know, as time goes on i mean people can say why doesnt Michael Jordan hit the hole when he was with the wizards like he was with the bulls . Because he cant. I think that, yo, you know, my answer to that is, i start to look at the most rational, logical reason, is it just is there a pattern there . Or is it just that, you know, there is no way, including nicholas going through the same thing that tiger did, there is just no way that for 17 years in a row you are going to shoot under par on every single sunday. I just think that if tiger doesnt do it, it is talked about for so long that it feels like he did it over and over and over again, but i just think it is the random, arbitrary nature of golf, i dont think it is anything that he is doing or he is not doing. I just think that at some point, you know, is that, you know, you are going to control golf and most of the other time it is going to control you. Rose how is he growing as a player . I think the game teaches him something every time he plays. I think his, you know he looked at it as like this yearning for this learning and people say well, you know, what does that mean . It is not the yearning for the perfect back swing. It is just how he manages a golf course and how he understands, okay, from this angle i have the greatest chance at this score and it is amazing how he does it and never really shared it with anyone. Including you . Including me. I never asked him, you know, i have my own. Rose how he manages the golf course . Just how he manages the golf course is fascinating. I mean you can tell what he is doing if you watch him closely but i think, though, as well, charlie, that he just has to he just has to keep showing up he is the greatest that has ever lived, it isnt like there is a magic pill. Just stay healthy, keep, keeping on. Rose and if he does he will great the record which isable cool i think that is the coolest thing to he is that at 37, he is only three away from tying snead alltime and snead was quite a bit older at that point. Rose right. So the major championship record is something newish in golf. I mean, to be at 79 wins at 37 years of age, you know, to at one point this year, you know, guy said to me, you know, what does tiger need to do to play like he used to . I am saying he just won five of his last eight tournaments. Against guys who are very good i said he just has had like luke donalds career in eight weeks and luke donald is really good. Rose yes. So i just think tiger needs to be tiger and just keep playing. Rose luke donalds career in eight weeks, in eight weeks he has done everything and he is one of the great players playing today. In his in his generation. Rose take justin rose and do you think they understand their game . So that they can say to you, i know what i am doing wrong and i know wh i am doing it . I just cant prevent myself . Right. Typically, when it gets like that, it is because they know all the pieces of the puzzle but cant see it themselves. So justin for example we were working the other day and he loved to hit it hard and high, he looks like a tenyearold kid out, there he could be in a dead straight and low and but he gets this rose i am with justin. Yes. Why not . Right . In awe of this thing. Rose exactly. So he hits the ball and trying to hit it high and his swing looks good at all of the places that it should and for me i have seen him hit so many balls, it is lamb like if he came out, i see it even in normal speed i see he it so clear of something is blurry and looks different than normal. So i just looked i looked we could have went down different avenues and could have increased loft, we could have increased tilt and done way too bhuch but i just kind of walked up around the side and looked and i alike you wont be able to hit it high enough from that ball position. Where is it . So i took a picture, it is like oh man i cant believe that. But it is obvious, it is an instinctive, you know, we are mammals so we are these instinct, instinct if the we are adaming to the environment, so the wind is blowing at us, 15, 20 Miles Per Hour it is normal for the ball to get further back in the stance, now to hit it high it looks like he is having to ma nip late which he is, what happens when the ball goes back in the stand in the angle of the attack is more severe and the ball has a left loft, the ball has left loft, so if that is loft and that is angle of attack, inbetween the triangle is called spin loft so he might be hitting down more, but the loft is changing too, so the ball is starting out lower and you can see him backing up trying to scoop it. So we play it up and if i was on the brink of going into this mags stiff discussion on what it is in his down swing, and then i just kind of i try to trust my instincts i know when i am out there and thinking a lot that i am in the wrong place because i typically dont have to think about it that much, as they dont. Like when they go play, if they are thinking about everything they are doing they are not free, they are pretty frontal, you know, they are in cognition, they are not in the subconscious. So i walked up and just like, oh, sean, you idiot, like you let him hit 15 balls he is get a little might haved and i like that because he is, miffed miffed because he is not going to accept hitting the ball poorly which is why he is world class and here we are trying to hit the ball high with the ball position that is going to hit the ball low. Rose it always has been my understanding of human nature, from all the people i have interviewed over 25 years and the best at every field in the world. Yes. Whether a conductor of a great symphony or a great surgeon or whoever it might be, they are the ones who work the hardest. They are the ones who care the most. They are the ones who have the most passion to be, to take what they do to another level. Rose that is what it is about. Yes. I think that, you know , you know, they are the ones who, you know a lot of people who dont quite get to that level they anticipate the pain and sacrifice that is going to come, and they, the anticipation is what keeps them where they are, whereas these other ones dive into the pool no matter how cold it is knowing they can find endless possibilities. Rose it is the reason so many people who walk who climb a mountain. Yes. Rose and they get to the top, because they had to climb the damned mountain. And it was just painful almost the whole time. And when they get down the mountain if you knew what it was going to take it a and would you have done it . No, never i wouldnt do that. Yes. Rose i imagine, if i imagined it was going to be that cold and that hard, you know painful . I wouldnt have done it in a thousand years. Yes. I think a lot of people dont ever give themselves a chance to see how amazing they are. Rose exactly right. And some of that has to do, i think with, i mean, clearly, you are born with you come at age 2 or 1 or 6 months with certain kinds of developing skills, right . You see that . Sure. Rose you see different golfers and you know because of their physicality, because of the structure of their body and their mind, they are better than the other guy, they have a better chance of making it, it doesnt mean they will but they have a better chance, right. You can see it like my son is five and playing socker. Rose right. And there are five kids who are really struggling, the rest of them are all the same, and then there are four kids where you are just like they are unbelievable at it. Rose thats right. So i think that, you know, that all those kids out on that field, if they are lucky enough to stay clear enough in their life so they will be able to hear their wisdom pushing them in a direction they are all special at something, you know, it is just whether or not we find that. Rose this is your guide to the best teachers, sean foley is ranked number 2 on that, harmon has been on that list for a long, long time. And hahn as a young man is number 2 on that list. And how the hell how do you know how to measure the best teachers . That is a good question only. I think they just sent out to the pga of america and then the other one in there is for so that thousands of people put down that, and, look, there are friendships in there and people who teach the same stuff, so, you know, is it an honor . Of course. If i was voted number 40, would it make me feel like less of am instructor . Absolutely not. My main interest is the guys who i need to text me back text me back. I cant depend on the expectations of everyone and have the confidence of everyone to do it, but, you know, it is just i used to read golf digest as a kid and when that thing came i would be up in my room. Rose me too. And reading davis love and john elliott and a all the grea, paul runyon, so i am very fortunate and very grateful for where i am at. Rose thank you for coming. Thanks, it has been an honor. Rose sean foley, thank you for joining us. See you next time. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org im laura linney, and this is masterpiece classic. The paradise. Woman living in a small town wasnt enough. Linney from the novel by emile zola, the story of a magical place, the mesmerizing man who owns it, and the young woman who finds herself in the paradise. Woman its a good life if you go with it. Man the paradise can lure every woman in this city through our door. Man you know that my daughter is infatuated with you. If you break her heart, i shall make it my business to ruin you. Man i need to know what moray is up to. I need to prevent him from excess. Man i must prove that the paradise can conquer this whole city. Linney beginning tonight on masterpiece classic. Captioning sponsored by viewers like you National Funding for masterpiece is provided by sailing through the heart of historic cities and landscapes on a river, you see things differently. You get close to iconic landmarks. To local life. To cultural treasures. Its a feeling that only a river can give you. These are journeys that change your perspective on the world. And perhaps even yourself. Viking river cruises proud sponsor of masterpiece ralph lauren i build a collection out of a dream. Im writing a story. The story starts with a woman, her journey, her dreams. I create a world around her. Its a world beyond fashion. The world of ralph lauren. Rovided by major support is provided by donald and darlene shiley. Masterpiece is television for the mind and for the heart. Please join me in supporting masterpiece and public television. Support is also provided by Conrad Prebys and debbie turner. And by the following and by why are we so drawn to what we ct have . Is there something in our nature that makes what is beyond our reach seem more desirable than what is within our grasp . And what about affairs of the heart . Is the unattainable the essence of romance . Tonight, a pretty shopgirl from the country arrives in the city, where everything is out of reach, except at the paradise. banging horse neighing door opens why, denise now my day is all sunshine. 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