the one of the richest men in russia. he is now a british citizen and chairman of two british newspapers. the "evening standard" and the independent. >> yes, i think what you have to do these days when everybody is saying that the product printed product is dying and all the viewers and reading on-line what you have to do in order to survive in print media is you have to look inwardly and imaginatively at the possibilities and what you can do. i think it is still possible to exist in print media as well as focusing on the digital as well as focusing on tablets. and what we've done is decided that the only way to save the "evening standard" was to take it free and then exist on the advertising only business model. which has worked very well. and i think what we have done is we have proven all the critics who said we were absolutely mad to buy it in the first place. >> rose: bilawal bhutto zardari and evgeny lebedev when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following:. >> rose: additional funding provided by these funders: from our studios in new york city this is charlie rose. bilawal bhutto zardari is here, his father asif ali zardari is the president, his ben a tar bhutto was a sass natured in 2 o 007, his mother when she returned to go back too politics. he became chair of the party, on his mother's advice bilawal went to oxford and intended to go to harvard as perhaps she had. all of that changed with his mother's assassinationment now he is in the united states to attend the peabody awards where a documenteer called bhutto is being honored. a visit to new york and his father's visit to chicago for the g8 comes at a difficult time in pakistani u.s. relations there is tension over a 33 year sentence given to a doctor without allegedly helped the cia identify some of bin laden's location. >> the united states does not believe there is any basis for holding dr. afridi. we regret both fact that he was con contribute-- convicted and the severity of his sentence. his help, after all, was instrumental in taking down one of the world's most notorious murderers, that was clearly in pakistan's interests as well as ours and the rest of the world. this action by dr. afridi to help bring about the end of the reign of terror designed and executed by bin laden was not in any way a betrayal of pakistan. and we have made that vi well-known and we will continue to press it with the government of pakistan. >> rose: there are also tensions over the deaths of 24 pakistani soldiers during a nato raid and over access to afghanistan via the khyber pass. i'm pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you very much, charlie for having me. >> rose: i think this is the only time that i have had an interview with a father, and the mother, both had been heads of state, and then the son comes to the table. so thank you. let me begin with pakistan today. as you know there's some conflict with the united states right now on many levels. but specifically having to do with the arrest of the man who the doctor, you know, and there have been also america is not happy about that. >> yes. >> rose: what is your take? >> well, it's very unfortunate incident. and i do wish the united states had cooperated on the raid in abbott a bad so things could have been different for the doctor it is against the law in any country in the world to cooperate with foreign intelligence. look at the case of jonathan pollard here in the united states, where he too was cooperating with israeli intelligence and was sentenced to life imprisonment by u.s. court. >> rose: and despite all efforts by israeli politicians they've been unable to secure his release. >> yes. >> rose: the u.s. is now making some question about aid to pakistan. is this simply one more level of a deterioration in the relationship? >> yes, it's one of a series of crises that we've had to face over the past year. everything from the raymond davis fiasco where a cia agent in pakistan shot two innocent pakistanies in the back of the streets of lahore to the recent border incident where the nato troops killed 24 innocent pakistani soldiers. and that shall didn't result in an apology. >> rose: has not. >> has not resulted in an apology, to the abbott a bad raid, there have been issues that resulted in the deterioration of our relationship. >> how can you rebuild it. >> i think both sides are working together to resolve these issues. i think the way we can rebuild it is by increasing cooperation rather than increasing the con flichblingt and that requires an understanding on both sides. it requires an understanding on pakistani's side to see the anger, genuine anger and misunderstanding here in the united states. and it requires an understanding on the american side to see the general frustration in pakistan where we believe our sacrifice in this war aren't being appreciated and the assets that we made to fight this war aren't being appreciated and in a limited capacity veys a vote united states aren't being appreciated. >> the conversation with the former secretary of defense, robert gates, and i asked him, did, was it inconceivable for him to believe that pakistani intelligence service isi did not know about osama bin laden. he said it's inconceivable to him that somebody didn't know. but they had no evidence. what do you think? >> i think that's a strange answer. because that is an accusation without any proof. when the united states raided the abbottabad compound they found a treasure trove of evidence, that suggested that bin laden had lived there for a while. i believe that if there was any link between osama bin laden and the intelligence agencies or anyone in the government of pakistan, they would have been some form of evidence. i mean they managed to find him there then they would be able to unearth some evidence to prove the link. >> rose: do you accept there is some link between isi and not necessarily the top of it but some link between isi and the haqqani group? >> how would you define link. i think security agencies all over the world have contact with unsavory characters. i don't, to the to my knowledge and not to my belief is there an active link with anyone in the isi, not even the bottom to the top. but i can't claim to be an expert. i don't engage with-- . >> rose: dow accept the premise that the afghan war has not gone as well as it might have because there was a constant flow of taliban from, and protection in pakistan who had come across the border into afghanistan easily, and could join taliban forces already there. >> i think there are many reasons why the afghan star wasn't gotten particularly well. and i think the main reason is there was a distraction halfway through where all the tension was focused to iraq. and there was a pitiful number of american forces in afghanistan, excuse the word pitiful. >> rose: fair enough answer. >> in comparison to the attention that was paid to iraq. and i think that is the key. the attention wasn't there when you started to pay attention again, it had-- it was coming close to the ten year mark and people are getting impatient and then you decided to leave in 2014. i think that's more the problem. and it is a very long border. it is the very porous border. you can't seal the board we are mexico t is a lot more treacherous t is a lot more difficult the pakistani afghan border. and as i said we have 140,000 active pakistani military troop tess border. but there is a problem on both sides. i think there is this, and for some reason and i can't tell you why, we feel like when we launch-- if you remember when we came into power the u.s. were reporting about how the taliban had taken over areas of pakistan and there were a couple miles away from the capital and the-- was under threat. that area, we cleared of taliban. but we feel that we would clear them from there they went and sought sanctuary in afghanistan and there wasn't the anvil affect where the american forces were come approximating in. perhaps that's the same problem the america feels towards pakistan. but again, we see it as a capacity problem. >> rose: here is what is the-- here is the assumption about pakistan and afghanistan. it's on your border. and you worry about one nato forces and american forces leave, who might come to power there. and you want to make sure they are friendly to pakistan. >> afghan president mohammed karzai and president zardari have extremely-- relationship, both our governments get along great. the president of afghanistan came to my father's oath taking ceremony. my father went to president karzai's oath taking ceremony. you had them both on your show for an interview. our relationships couldn't be better. that's why we believe that it should be afghan-led and afghan-own reconciliation process in afghanistan. and the resulting peace whatever it may be as long as it is a peaceful, prosperous, stable afghanistan is of interest to pakistan. we don't want to change the make. >> rose: karzai is no long never office off 2014. are you concerned about a destabilized afghanistan with taliban forces coming to power? >> i would be concerned of an afghanistan where the extremist forces did come to power. >> rose: dow worry about the influence of india in afghanistan. >> no. >> rose: you don't. >> i do not. >> rose: what is the nature of the relationship today because of all the conflict over the kashmir. >> our, the nature of the relationship today is vastly improving, actually. it is very heartening for me. i just went on a trip to india with my father. and it wasn't just the indian government and prime minister, it was also the opposition party's president at that. if you look over the border in pakistan it is not just my party that is always talked about peace with india. in fact, my mother talked about peace in india in 1988 when she invited-- to pakistan and declared a security threat by the opposition at the time that very same opposition today talks about peace with india. i think peace with india has moved beyond a sort of intellectual elite desire to every common man desire. >> rose: notwithstanding the fact that the mumbai attacks originated from pakistan. >> those are nonstate actors. people are always going to try and say, i believe the mumbai attacks took place to sabotage the vast strides we made as soon as my father took over with the peace process with india, in order to sabotage our relationship. >> rose: why have so many of, you know, getting ready to face, look at some trials military trials for chic mohammed and others who were involved in 9/11. most of them were captured in pakistan. osama bin laden was killed in pakistan. what is it about pakistan? >> well, i would ask you what was it about afghanistan. that is where they were, i believe. and we are a country -- >>. >> rose: i will tell you what it is about afghanistan. mullah omar gave them safe haven. >> but after the americans came and you have success in afghanistan and thought the situation was so great, that another war could be launched it was still taliban in afghanistan. and even after ten years, after a trillion dollar war, they still taliban in afghanistan. >> do you think the united states made a grievious mistake in shifting its focus to iraq. >> i do. >> rose: if they stayed in afghanistan would have a different afghanistan today. >> i believe if-- . >> rose: a state that focused just on afghanistan. >> if the focus stayed on afghanistan, if the focus had stayed on democracy, not just in afghanistan, all over the region, i think there was-- too much was left for a military dictate tore do. and there is always a border-- there is also a political solution, but i think politician kos have brought to the table. and with the politicians isolated in pakistan, the situation is different. >> rose: back to osama bin ladenment how long do you think he was there. >> i don't know. i could tell you, i honestly believe-- . >> rose: your father is president of the country. >> yes, my father is president of the country. i believed he was dead rdz are you chairman of the party. >> yes, and i believed he was dead. >> rose: you believed he was dead. >> yes, i believed he was dead. my father is president to pakistan right now. but however he spent 11 and a half years as a political prison never pakistan well before that. so forgive us if we didn't know where osama bin laden was hiding. >> rose: the question is not that did you not know. the question is how could it have happened because you now have access to the people who were in fact in power in terms of the military and in terms of isi. >> uh-huh. so the whole national security app rat-- apparatus hasn't changed that much. >> they did not. however we have established a very powerful commission in pakistan that is determined to come to the truth of the mat ter. so i am confident that we will find out what happened, how long was he there for, how did he manage to stay there for so long, et cetera, or if indeed he was there for that long. >> rose: what is pakistan's relationship with china today. >> i think it is a positive championship. our relationship with all the countries in our region are improving. and that's a very positive step. because as soon as the outside problems decreases, and external relationships get better, the more you can look internally and address the internal concerns. therefore it is a very positive thing that our relationship with afghanistan is increased so drastically. the peace process with india is progression, our relationship with china is positive. and i would like the relationship with the united states to improve better as well so that we can look internally without forces inside pointing to the bogey men oust. >> rose: is that part of the reason are you here. >> that is part of the reason why i'm here. >> rose: did you meet with former ambassador haqqani. >> no, i didn't get-- i don't believe he is in it d.c.. >> rose: he is in and out. he is not in pakistan, or he is. >> no, he's not in pakistan at the moment. >> rose: what is his stat us? >> what dow mean by status. >> rose: is he, is he been indicted, is he under any kind of detention k he travel as much as he wants to, serious charges against him, that he had talked with the american military about having conversations with the pakistani military those are all facts, aren't they? >> no. >> rose: tell me which ones are wrong. >> i don't want-- i can't-- the court case is still ongoing so i don't want to get into too much detail. >> rose: the court case is -- >> i believe-- he is a flend. >> he is a friend to democracy in pakistan and a friend of-- . >> rose: the family. >> he used to work for our political rivals. he is-- he came up with the nick name mr. 10% for my father while he worked for them. >> rose: so that did not make him thought in your family -- >> however, he fell out and was arrested and tortured and imprisoned in pakistan and has since then made a shift towards a democratic pakistan and strifd for that. >> rose: he has been in washington. >> yes, he has been. he was an effective ambassador. >> rose: after this business arose in pakistan, i think he has been in washington -- >> the case is now ongoing. i think that some of the more absurd accusations that were fleshed out in our media, there was a lot of hype and confusion it was a very complicated issue. and it's hard really to convey to someone in the west because i believe it would to the have been an issue anywhere else. there is supposedly a memo that he was to have drafted that turned out that the man making the accusations admits that he drafted it. >> rose: this was a stack -- --. >> this san american citizen. >> rose: oh, i see. >> it is a very complicated-- . >> rose: general jones was connected to this as well. >> general jones has completely-- . >> rose: he passed on something, didn't he. >> he was accused of something like that but he has given an affidavit in the case and the man making the accusations does not have any credibility and this is quite ridiculous. >> rose: it is a small point but nevertheless, you being in washington, you do have a new ambar-- ambassador who is much admired. >> yeah. >> rose: you specifically, you, tell me of the influence of your mother. >> on me or on the country. >> rose: on you, first. >> she was-- she was my everything. and you don't-- i people say this but you don't appreciate something until it's gone. the unconditional love of a mother is impossible to replace. and it's why at 19 i was happy to run for election as chairman of my party. and i was happy to take this burden on. because men go to war and are killed. they don't know what it's like when they kill your moth other. they don't knows what's coming. >> rose: who killed her? >> it's a complicated conspiracy that-- . >> there's been an u.n. investigation which had a limited mandate but that carried out its job. there was a pakistani investigation into the case. and now the case is before the courts. the investigation has, both investigations have included that al qaeda issued the instructions to that ricci taliban in pakistan who carried out the attacks. and that the dick stater at the time although aware of the attacks. >> rose: mr. musharraf. >> yes, provided and i believe purposefully provided inadequate security which amounts to sabotage. >> rose: did they withdraw the security or never provided it. >> even the u.n. report says they never provided the appropriate security for a former prime minister of the country. his own former prime minister had more security. forget about all the other-- the very basic security provided to former prime minister was not awarded to her. so it's my belief he purposefully sabotaged the security. he was aware of this specific attacks against her and wanted her eliminated. >> rose: so he did less rather than more knowing that there was an attack planned against her. >> yes. >> rose: did she have a sense of it? >> i don't-- she-- she was aware of the threats. >> rose: but general or specific. >> general. i believe that he was aware of specifics. the u.n. report says they did nothing more than become aware of the threats and pass on a message basically saying there is a threat against your life. don't go here. don't go there. and it was almost every day. but they knew the specifics of this threat and they didn't-- . >> rose: so rather than simply telling her they should have done something to eliminate them. >> exactly, as the government of pakistani go after the threat, you provide adequate security and when there is a specific threat do everything in your power to go and catch them. >> rose: where were you when she was killed. >> i was in dubai. hi just finished my first eight weeks at oxford and christmas break and i came over, she came over to meet us for a couple of days and had gone back to pakistan. >> rose: so she had seen you right before she went back. >> yeah. >> rose: she was on this program a number of times as you may know. several times. and here is one time, 1995, talking about the influence of your grandfather and her father, also a former prime minister who was hanged. here it is. >> what's the legacy of your father for you? >> i think really he was a humanist. and he followed a different path towards the goal of humanism. and for me social development is human development am which is important so all the politics say past but i really get happy when i go to a village and see that we have electrified it and the people there see light burn for the first time in the night. i get happy if i go and see that a lady has work and has been trained and she's talking to the women in the communities about planning the families, reducing infant mortality rate that is what gives one satisfaction. >> rose: was he the most profound influence on you. >> very much so i think he gave me the confidence to be a person in my own right. i come from a very traditional society. >> rose: de imagine you ever going into politics or would that not have happened without his -- >> we always say that my daughter is going to make me more proud than india gandhi made her father. and i had said no, papa, i'm to the going to go into politics, that's never going to happen. >> rose: why did you do it, then. >> i did it because he was in prison. all the party leaders were behind bars. and i felt its with a grave injustice to him and i got motivated and committed not only for his life but five week force a democratic society which he had envisaged as the first step to social emancipation. >> rose: when you see that, you must call back all kinds of memories of her as a mother and as a powerful political force. >> yes. she. >> as i said, you don't realize what you've lost until it's gone. and you know, despite all the threats. despite what a big decision this was, it just wasn't going to happen. she was going to be saved. for some reason i can't explain why, but they couldn't hurt her. it just couldn't-- it wasn't meant to happen. >> rose: yet she stood up in that car. >> she always did, after every rally. the security took that into account. what would happen is she would stand up, the car would drive off. in this case, the police were sent away on purpose, so that the crowds would surround the car, so that the car would be unable to move. i think it's really-- this is a very interesting argument for me, oh, she stood up so she deserved to die. i have never heard this before, you know. not with male-- kennedy should have had his top down. he deserved to die. >> rose: so they said that. >> they did. >> because she stood up, she deserved to die. anyway, martin luther king didn't wear a bulletproof vest, he deserved to die. anyway-- . >> rose: she also as you know, i interviewed her several months before she went back in an interview that was not recorded, before a group at-- at a conference in aspen, colorado. there, it was not recorded. what was there about her was a sure sense that she understood there was danger, but that she could not, her country needed her to come now. >> yeah. >> rose: she had weighed the danger and decided that she had to go. >> yes, very much so. >> rose: almost as if it was her destiny. not to be assassinated but to play a role in her country at that moment. >> she was our country's best hope. she was our region's best hope. the whole narrative of al qaeda is wlon to smithereens when the popularly elected prime minister of a muslim country is a woman. >> rose: did that bullet change your life in terms of your life's projection. >> absolutely. i was an undergraduate who just started university. just as she had said over there, unlike her father, she groomed her well but not specifically for politics. she thought education was very important. and she wanted to us have the freedom she didn't vp. she wanted us to be able to make our own choices in life. and i think there's an entity somewhere as well when she says that, she says that, exactly that, that we will make our own choices. i'm going to go to university. she would always say that i would will go off to university, and i have to go one oxford first, then harvard. >> she told this to you, oxford, harvard. >> law school or undergraduate. >> she didn't say specifics harvard and oxford, but i was to do oxford, harvard, get a job, get parried, start a family and then if i so wish i can come back to pakistan. and that became impossible the day she was assassinated. >> so you came back to pakistan immediately. >> absolutely. >> rose: and what's your future now. are you head of the party. are you waiting your opportunity to run for president? >> no, not to run for president. but my, i'm head of the party. but at the same time i didn't campaign in the last election. i didn't seek office for myself nor did i campaign for my party. so i don't particularly feel like i have a mandate at the moment to take an overactive role, to step on anybody's toes. so when the next election comes around and if the party so wishes, i will be taking a more active role. >> rose: in what way? >> in campaigning and engaging in policy and engaging in issues and being part of the debate in our society for a peaceful, prosperous. >> rose: is there someone in pakistan other than you and other than your father who speaks to those people who had such belief in your mother? >> they're few and far between. and it's not that the people without don't share the idea that the it is getting increasingly more dangerous to speak the way my mother did, and the way my grandfather did. we have had a couple of other political assassinations since then. our party's governor in the punjab, the largest province of pakistan was also shot and killed by his own security guards for his beliefs. we had, our part had appointed the first ever christian federal minister in our country's history, it was a very proud moment for us. he too was assassinated. i wouldn't like to say there aren't people out there who advocate for the same beliefs as my mother and my grandfather and our party does, a lot of brave people in our party. but we're few and far between and we're being cut down one by one. whether it is actual assassination or political, a political assassination in the sense that our reputations are being gone after, are you being muddied, are you being brought down, look at what happened to haqqani who was also a strong voice for a democratic, egalitarian pakistan. >> rose: and so do you assume attacks will come against you? >> attacks may come against me. but i am also-- . >> rose: violent or simply -- >> both, both from both. but i also believe that the pakistani state will do everything it can to provide me the security i need. and threats -- do come against me but i have lost the most valuable thing in my life rdz your mother. >> yeah. >> those threats don't scare me. >> rose: what is your relationship today with general canani. >> i don't have a relationship with general canani. >> rose: you don't-- are you the chairman of a party. >> i'm chairman of a political party. >> you have never had conversations with him. >> i have met him. i don't have a relationship with him. that's very important because the military is part of the government. and it's only elected representatives and the supreme commander of the armed forces, my father, those people have relationships with the chief of the army staff. >> rose: will musharraf done what he did without the general knowing. >> i believe it is possible. >> rose: possible that musharraf acted in some way without the chief of a high ranking military official, either at isi or chief of staff of the army. >> absolutely. musharraf was the all powerful dictator of pakistan. he wants to come back. >> we have approached interpol to issue a warrant so if he wants to come back of his own free will, please do so he can face the charges of the role he played in at sass nation of my mother. >> rose: how safe are the nuclear weapons? >> very safe. we have a very affective commanding control system to keep them safe. the nuclear weapons that i am very concerned about are the after the cold war. russia's retreat and those countries, those are very wonderable. in pakistan they are very, very secure. >> rose: and how unstable is pakistan? wfern i believe we are a new democracy and we, it might not look it now but the progress we have made is making us an even more stable country. as we get more democratic, democracy is a funny thing that way. just because people are allowed to protest, the media is allowed to speak their mind. the judiciary is allowed it to play an active role t can look like your country is descending more into chaos. in fact we are becoming stronger as a result. for example, i believe it would be near to impossible for there to be a military coup in pakistan today. >> rose: nearly impossible. >> yeah. i would 99.99 percent impossible. and if it was, the pressure would be so much that we would end it almost immediately as well also the general has a number of times said he does not want to see the military play a political role. >> yes. >> rose: are you take him at his word. >> yeah, he's-- i have no reason not to. we have been in power for the past five years. as i said, i don't have a relationship with him but my-- the officials in my party who are elected positions do. he's always come out and voiced strong support for democracy. so i have no reason to believe that he would not. >> rose: what is it that you want america to understand about pakistan today that perhaps i have not asked the appropriate question to precipitate that answer. >> i would like america to understand that my mother did not sacrifice her life for pakistan to be told we are not doing enough. we play our part and it's not just my mother. we've lost 37,000 of our own civilians to this war. as i said, 6,300 security forces have died, which is six times the casualties in nato and afghanistan. we have more forces on the board earn-- border than they have in all of afghanistan. we're doing our part. we don't lack the will, we lack the means. i understand the frustration that's there i understand that they have to leave in 2014. but we are going to be afghanistan's neighbor forever. >> rose: and india as well. >> and yand as well, which is why we are working on our relationships with them. >> rose: dow understand how the united states worries about pakistan. >> i do. they have concerned. but i feel like the hostilities between the two countries mean that we have less ability to convey each other of both our problems. it's all accusation. and when it's just accusations you don't get a chance to explain how to properly solve these things, how to address the problems railroad not, whether they are legitimate concerns or not. >> before you go i want to show the audience an excerpt from the document-- that bhutto had just won a peabody award, a very, very prestigious journalistic award. here it is. >> you got the same sort of reception everywhere where she went. equal me impressive reception and the crowd was so emotionally charged that she could have just asked them to take-- she didn't. she believed it that she has to restore the sanctity -- >> my father did not want bloodshed. my father does not want violence. and again, here the call of the people and here are the -- >> benazir bhutto today challenged you before leaving karachi to an election showdown. could you please give us your reaction. >> chivalry prevents me to challenge a lady. >> rose: who was the last spokesman. >> general-- the plan who murdered-- who assassinated her grandfather and which the military stated she was fighting against. i believe the entity that asked the question --. >> as we were watching that you said to me, oh -- >> a lot of how she was the best hope for pakistan in this war against islamic extremism. when she went through the campaign, kids inpakistan, the madrassa was come out, she told me this when she came to see me in dubai, that she came out and lined the streets and were chanting benazir, you will be our sword. we will defeat these people. >> rose: she was also a very strong and vocal proponent for the empowerment of women. >> yes. i am so very proud of our government's achievements on that front. we have done more to address that issue than any of our previous governments combined. we've passed more women's rights legislation than any previous governments and my most favorite program that i started is the-- program which is pakistan's first and only social safety net. it is as it that women emancipation and poverty alleviate -- alleviationed lifting 4 million families out of poverty by providing a tiny monthly stipend to the women of the house, the poorest of the poor. >> rose: it's good to you have here. i hope we can have another conversation either in pakistan or back here at this table or in washington. but thank you for coming. >> thank you very much. >> rose: bilawal bhutto czar dair, his father is the president of of pakistan, his mother was benazir bhutto, he is chairman of the pakistani people's party. back in a moment. stay with us. yevgeny lebedev is here. since taking control of the evening standard in 2009 and the independent in o 2010 he has become a leading figure in the british media. the last three years have seen an extraordinary reversional of fortune for those once strauing elling newspapers. he has instituted innovative business practices to ensure the future of the papers. but he is concerned with the ethical as well as financial health of the industry. in a statement to the inqoirry he said the aim was to support journalism that aided britain's democracy. i'm pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: your story is-- you are -- >> tell me first t say well phone story of your father, former member of the kgb. >> foreign intelligence. >> rose: foreign intelligence, colleague of vladimir puertoin, now a very successful businessman in russia. and outspoken. >> which is-- from which he is being reprimanded. >> rose: and reminded by the prime minister, the president, depending on which job vladimir putin has. >> not necessarily prime minister but certainly we have had all sorts of organizations recently from the police to the tax authorities, central bank, prosecutor general's office, even the fire brigade. the only people-- . >> rose: has he been a successor. >> to the kgb, yes. >> rose: why are they doing that. >> for various reasons. i think one of the most important ones is a newspaper in russia which was founded together with gorbachev back in the '90s, it is a newspaper that the only one that actually openly speaks out against those in power, in positions of power who do things wrong. >> rose: interesting too because there is a minority ownership by the workers. >> actually majority, 51%. that was done on purpose to make sure that the journalists feel that they are in control of the newspaper. and the newspaper, five journalists have been killed in the last ten, 15 years. and it comes under great pressure. and we lebedev have come under great pressure because of that. there are all sorts of rogue elements who don't like the fact that this newspaper is investigating them, is investigating their wrongdoing. but it is the only one that actually holds those in power to account. where i come from, where my family comes from, when-- having grown-up in a country like soviet union where freedom of expression, freedom of press was simply not there, i remember those great saying that there is no-- it means the two soviet newspapers, one of them named nuz. other one one called truth so, there was no truth in news and no news in truth. so-- but we certainly moved a long way from there we have freedoms now. people can travel now, speak out. the type of censorship that now exists, not just in russia but other countries of the world, it's not some of the institutional censorship, so it, in the soviet union you just couldn't speak out, you couldn't print. whereas now you can. but certain things are being kept quiet. and certain things are being repressed. so this is what we are trying to fight against. and. >> rose: why did you decide to seek your fortune in britain? >> i went to britain in the 1980s when i was a child. i went to school there. i stayed on, i love london i love britain. as much as i love russia. >> rose: i love moss course, i love st. peters burg. >> i think once a russian, always a russian. >> rose: exactly. >> you don't, it's a very strong national identity. and that is one of the things that actually really up sets me is that now the perception of russia and russians is very negative one. >> rose: it si a perception of russians by russia. >> no, not by russians, perception of russia outside, and russian and russias. shady businessmen, very ruthless, very tough politicians, which is not the case, actually. but that's what is perceived and i am not blaming anyone but ourselves. because that's what we project it is a country that has given us sky kofsky and i do yevski and tolstoy and great literature, great theatre, great filmmaking. >> rose: what going to happen to mr. kolokovski. >> well, there's been some talk about shortening his prison sen techblts i think we are awe now at a crossroads. mr. putin was inaugurated, cogo all the way. i think it is an important time for him to decide which way he goes. he could go the way of bringing russia back to its democratic shoots that were emerging in the '90s and focusing more on freedoms. >> rose: does very that instinct? >> i think he's a clever man. and seeing what is happening in russia, seeing what is happening in the middle east, seeing what is happening in syria, the situation with russia has been very different in the last few months than it was say a year or two years ago. when you had 100,000 people come out in the streets, it didn't seem so significant to demonstrate. i mean a lot of them may have been arrested. but it was always the same. the usual suspects every time. whereas now it's been tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of people on the street and now there is this occupy movement that has been on the street for days. and interestingly t hasn't been retofed-- removed by force there have been some arrest but they are actually allowed to stay where they are. so i think it's a great sign and a great-- it's a great possibility that is given to our new president to actually see what the people want and take it into account. >> rose: so it he may be listening. >> he may be listening. i hope he's listening. >> rose: there is also this, the question of when you look at where russia is, the influence it could have, if you look at critical questions on iran, on syria, it could play a huge role. right now the role is mixed. >> absolutely. i think, the position that russia takes is hugely important. and then been taking some controversialal and some very unpopular stances on iran, on syria, and i think the first moves of our new president deciding not to go to the g-8 and barack obama, vice versa saying he is to the going to go to the asia-pacific summit, is not a good start. but i still my belief is that still there is a possibility to build good relationships as with america as well as with britain as well as with the rest of the world. >> rose: it is said obama had a good relationship with med ef-- med yesterday ef, without is about to be prime minister. >> and i home that can be built on as well as with britain. >> rose: you go to britain, get an education there and become a british citizen. and then you buy the "evening standard". >> yes. >> rose: what was the state of the "evening standard" when you bought it? >> the "evening standard" was on its knees. can't really say it any other way. there was actually a date set for closeure. and it was going to be closed down if it wasn't sold. and i think for the owner at the time, he would have been more painful to close it than it was to sell it. >> rose: you were a saviour because to one else was standing in line to buy it. >> i won't say that but-- . >> rose: well. >> they say it. >> rose: how many people were standing in line to buy the "evening standard". >> there was nobody else. >> rose: -- >> as far as i know there was nobody else. >> rose: it is said the first thing did you was one of the early thins you did after getting a hands on it was to make it free. >> yes. i think what you have to do these days when everybody is saying that print product is dying and old view all the readers are migrating on-line what you have to do in order to survive in print media is you have to look intuitively and imaginatively at different possibilities and what is it you can do. i think it's still possible to exist in print media as well as focus on the digital as well as focus on tablets. what we have done is we decided that the only way to save the "evening standard" was to take it free and then to exist on the advertising only business model which has worked very well. i think what we have done is we have proven all those critics who said we were absolutely mad to buy it in the first place, and b absolutely mad to take it free, they were all proven wrong. it is doing very well. >> rose: it is profitable. >> it was losing 13 million pounds annually when we bought it. and now it is breaking, just about to break even this year. and from then on we are building on to profit. so-- . >> rose: and then there was the independent. >> then there was the independent which is a newspaper that i greatly value and respect because of its extraordinary journalism. its foreign reportsing, its commentary and its fame for being independent. and it was again one of those where people have said you're absolutely mad to be buying the independent newspaper because in the 25 years of its existence i think it has only been profitable one year. and yets what we have done is launched a new newspaper called the eye which will be the first newspaper, fist ever, national newspaper to be launched in britain in 25 years, since the independent itself. and it is now outselling the guardian and has been great boost for the independent newspaper because together they're both, i think the guardian and-- it's almost impossible now bar from going free or launching something new to actually raise circulation. but i think for both, to be able to prove that you can actually survive as a print model, you just have to be very intuitive and imaginative about what dow rather than just sort of sit back and accept the death of the print product. >> rose: talk to me about the hacking scan dachlt you testified before the committee and i will ask you about that testimony which was more a blairing call to standard for independents and freedom of the press. but where has this hacking scandal gone? >> well, it's been a long time coming, i think, that's for sure. because i think what has been going on, all the legal surveillance, all the hablinging, all the computer hacking, the e-mail hacking, all the payment to public officials, and conspiring to reverse the course of justice and the hiding of information, that was unattainable to the police. it has been absolutely a pauling. and reminded me of something that may happen in a own home country. but i think what is really important to remember is that those crimes were actually exposed not by the police who didn't do their job properly in this case. although they are now. were exposed by the guardian upand laterally by the independent newspaper, so i think-- . >> rose: if there sn a argument as to why, print newspaper are-- and there are many arguments, independent newspapers, newspapers being able to print, what good reporters, report this is one of those cases. >> absolutely. because i think if we didn't have those newspapers, if we, tabloid call ture which is very strong in britain, much stronger than in the u.s., the six of tabloid newspapers is really great one. in britain. but tabloid culture exists ef lee where. it exists in russia. it exists in even afghanistan which i visited last year, but the really valuable investigative journalism, which is extremely expensive but at the same time part of a developed democracy, as it is in britain, is an important one because otherwise if-- if the outcome of the inquirery in any way infringes on newspapers being able to hold those to account, called investigations into wrongdoing. >> rose: dow believe it will eliminate both paying off the police and hacking for stories? >> i think what needs to happen, there needs to be an outcome where those who are responsible are punished. and that will send out a message for this never to happen again. i think it cannot be swept under the carpet. i think the way the press is regulated f has to be regulated in a way which is independent and transparent and that to making sure this would never happen again. but the outcome has to also be able to allow for free and investigative journalism. but that said, i think it's very important that whatever happened never happens again. because he's it's absolutely an abuse of power from all sorts of angles. >> rose: did you send a tweet or an e-mail to lord levison that said something remarkable. >> i said that i think it's unreasonable for for independents to fund newspapers, put millions and millions into newspapers and not be able to have access to politician. what i mean by that is that lebedev spent $75 million pounds on both the independent and the "evening standard" in the last three years. both the guards and the times and the independent put together lose more than 100 million pounds annually which have to be funded. and i think if we put all sorts of regulations and controls on society, we are creating what i call tyranny of consensus because what it means is if politicians become very concerned and very afraid to say things to do things, to meet people, to discuss, to, if, say the press becomes regulated as well, the banks become regulated. >> let me make sure i understand. when i first read that i thought you were saying look f you have media power, you have access to people in power. it's the nature of the relationship. >> yes. >> which is true anywhere. >> yes. >> you look at the editorial board of any major newspaper, and politicians and other people are streaming in to have conversation, to explain. and both sides like that. it gives you if are you a politician a chance to explain yourself and you if you are a journalist to try to give an explanation of the purpose. >> that's exactly what i was trying to say, the problem is when it becomes a problem is when those who do get access to those, to the politicians are trying to influence a particular government policy in favor of their commercial interests. that's when it becomes a problem. >> that is what happened with bskyb. >> yes and i think we will find out, i think if the inquiry continues, we'll find out as more information comes out for the police investigation. i think the inquirery will shed more light on the bskyb. but i think the problem is, is when those who have access to politicians are being able, are being allowed to influence government policy in order to further the commercial interest. otherwise i don't see any problem with journalists being in touch with politicians, proprietors being in touch with politicians. and if there are too many controls in that, i think society becomes too overregulated and overcontrolled where everybody is afraid to say the wrong thing, make the wrong step, make the wrong move, give the wrong interview. and then you get to a situation where brilliant people will just not want to go into those processio procession-- professions any more. think think with younger generations and politicians if you compare them with britain and to older generations of politicians, you find that less brilliant people-- politics. >> there is and certainly here in many case, there is a division between church and state, publishers are one and reporters are something else. you are both. >> there is no separation of church and state. >> you want to be a reporter. >> it's something that really interests me. and i think it's almost a crime to be, to own a newspaper, to be involved in newspaper and not be able to actually go out there and see for yourself and write about it. because it's fascinating the trips i've done recently. i went out to kabul to interview ham i had karzai and spent 48 hours with him on national anniversary of 9/11 last year. i would like to do more. i would like to go out and meet more prosecutor journalists and talk to them, give them the platform. i was just in ethiopia three weeks ago which met some persecuted journalists. and i want to give them a platform through the newspapers, but also i'm launching a new web site which will be on the basis of the even standard and the independent it will be called independent voices, and it will be the first the inn the u.k., first web site which will have a campaigning aspect, a bit -- >> have you ever thought of sitting in a dark room with like a black background on the table and interviewing famous people. have you ever thought about that. >> no, but it is good, after today, after seeing the brilliant fantastic example, i certainly will. >> oh, you don't need to do that, stick to newspapers. it's a pleasure to have you here. >> it is a pleasure to be here. thank you. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york captioning sponsored by captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org