captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: welcome to our program. tonight we bring you the analysis of the dop primary in florida mitt romney one by a decisive margin. he lost with double digits in south carolina just ten days ago. he addressed the jubilant crowd of supporters earlier tonight. >> president obama wants to grow government and continue to amass trillion dollar deficits. i will not just slow the growth of government i will cut the spenting of government. i will not just freeze government share of the total economy. i will reduce it. and without raising taxes, i will finally get america to a balanced budget. >> charlie: annuity gi newt gh finished. they will continue to battle it out as they move towards super tuesday on march 6. we will have more analysis tomorrow. joining me now from washington al hunt, he is the wasngton editor in charge of bloomberg's election coverage and katty kay, anchor of bbc world news of america. mark halperin for "time" magazine and matt dowd for abc news and bloomberg ws and jeff greenfield anchor of s need to know. i am bleapsed t pleased to have. we begin with al hunt in washington. al, tell me ha this means and how did romney do it. >> this victory tonight is very impressive. there's no anybody can discount that. it was what romney had to do and he certainly did it. he still has sufficiencies as a candidate but he's a better candidate than he was a couple weeks ago. most of his campaigning or his adds at lease were really negative. he's got to develop a more positive message like that speech tonight. i don't think newt gingrh will get out of the race but because i think annuity thinks he's a star figure so he's got to stay in the race. i can't see any pathway for anyone else. i know mark halperin i said this three weeks awe negotiation i wa -- ago. but given the ups and downs you can't make any argument other than mark recal romney. >> it's a bad month for him because there are six con tests which favor romney. only one debate. he's going to rest and go back to try to talk about what he talk board of director this speech tuesday night after he was declad a second place finisher which is a contract of ideas rather than grievance against romney and against the dia. he won't be able to do anything in february that will makeim the front runner for sure. i don't think he can n any of these contests at this point. but i think it is still bunlt -- incumbent upon romney to do well on super tuesday southern states. so begin rich is not going to quit. we've seen a lot of unpredictable things. i think al is right in the main, clearly romney, every scenario leads to romney. by the middle of march but it could go to the convention if romney does well and picks up places like ohio and il illinoi. >> charlie: katty kay what do you think of tonight and what does it mean. >> coming out by somebody who voters felt were going to fight for them in the general election he managed to persuade people in florida who made up their minds in the last few days that he can have the guts, the toughness to take on obama. if you look at the kind of electability issue and the exit polls, that was an important factor as well with florida voters. i agree with am. - with am. i think we were back where we were a year ago which mitt romney is the clear front runner. it's very hard to see how else not the nominee who takes on barack obama in november. we've had extraordinary ups and downs but one has remained constant he has the organization in all the primary states that the other candidates don't do. he has the money and managed to get more endorsements and more backing from senior republicans than the other candidates. so there was a time after south carolina for a little bit are where like al i kind of wobbled on this but i actually i think my gut all along thought that mitt was going to be the nominee and it's very hard coming out of florida to s how that's not right. >> charlie: who does the calendar favor now? >> well, i agree with mark. i think the calendar when you look at it just in a vacuum it favors mitt romney. not only does he have the money, he reported a huge number today, another huge fund raising number today. he also has momentum now which he had not had coming out of south carolina. you look at the six states about to present themselves in february with only one debate that is three weeks away. five of those states romney won in 2008 when he lost the nomination. i think the calendar favors him. i think thers a window for newt gingrich, a lot smaller and tinier. in 2008 barack lost florida and went on win 11 contes in a row. that went all the way through june. newt gingrich doesn't have the organizationnd doesn't straight money that barack obama has. but this thing still h not been puto bed because mitt romney has performed much better and look back at south carolina and i lost in south carolina he still has some fundamental flaws. but i think that window is so small and text a&february is ina hard month ahead. >> charlie: he's defined this election between a reagan conservative and mitt as a massachusetts moderate. if he does, will that give him a shot. >> i think annuity begin rich's biggest prlem all along has been newt gingrich. we've had this conversation before. when there's the good newt gingrich shows up who is disciplined stays on message and has a vision he does well. when the bad newt gingrich shows up is p gets off message and undisciplined he doesn't do well. the good newt gingrich went in south carolina and did well. bad annuity beginning did bad and romney won. newt gingrich has to do something that's hard for him which is not be part of himself and not do stuff which is natural to him which is get angry, get upset a get petty and it takes the voters off and ignore it and go with a guy i don't completely trust but it's not annuit annuity newt gingric. >> let's take thease whe the witnessed dumb happens in many elections gets butted over and over again. if you're newt gingrich and you're seeing yourself as this world historical fige you're seeing ronald reaganen in 1964. had no money being urged to get out of the race, retreats to north carolina, makes a half hour speech on foreign policy wins north carolina and wins to roll up huge amounts of delegates. >> charlie: jessie helms. >> out of north carolina, he started to pick up enormous sport isupport in the more conse places. newt gingrich did well surprisingly in e pan handle in florida which borders alabama and georgia. the old rule the further north you go in florida the further south you get. march 6 and 13th, that's where the calendar begins to swing toward a newt argument. we still see a case where a big chunk of the republican party sees the eastern establishment once again foisting a moderate nominee on a conservative party. if newt gingrich can make that argunt and the casino magnet writes another multimillion dollar check to the superack i think e narrow window you describe still remains. >> charlie: do you buy that in terms of what he just said or is that confirming what you were trying to say. >> he said it better than i did. i thinkhe thing he needs to do is needs to have a better term - temperment. more about romney's record of governor of massachusetts. >> charlie: he's not the one who is makingt about his past that's what romney is being made to do. >> he needs to push that in a happy warrior way and not be drawn into it in florida debating whether he was a good or bad speaker, what his record was at fred ow freddie mac. he may major policy addresses in february and he plans to try to become the key party candidate. he's gotten some key pty leaders in his corner which is not necessarily endorsement, rush limbaugh, sarah palin. he needs tea party voters who he split with in florida with romney he needs to become the tea party candidate. >> charlie: trying to define the race as he is. albert. >> charlie, look jeff greenfield is right. if annuit newt gingrich were rod reaganen he would come back. newt gingrich is not ronald reagan. i've known him for over 37 years, charlie and i'm not his favorite reporter to put it mildly. but i have a sense of how he thinks. and first of all he does do himself he views himself as an historic figure, churc churchild lincoln. a novel and movie doesn't end on this undeserving massachusetts moderate. that's why he won't quit. but he cited lincoln -- his analogy won't be lincoln it will be robert e. lee. you can't win a war. i don't think you can get to march 6 or 13th and be viable. he has to find his gettysberg. i think waiting for him is a big roll of the dice but what he needs now is michigan. if you look at mitt romney's native state and say this is my gettysberg i'm going there and of course it would be very uphill and let's not forget lee lost gettysberg. >> charlie: let's not forget rick santorum. is he going to stay in and therefore ruin annuity' newt's f trying to be the sole surviving conservative. >> katy, let me did he eve defe. >> charlie: do they say we've got to get santorum out of this thing. >> effectively he's doing that by dominating the conversation, by dominating all of our attention in the course of this. i dot see any reason for santorum to get out unless whether it's for his family's reasons and his daughter, money reasons or, there's no, you can't see why he would get out at this particular point. i mean he knew he was never going to do well in florida. that was a write off for him and he carries on. i think, i kind of agree. we're talking about annuity as if he was a -- newt as if he was a different person. the ideal conservative candidate were out there, then the base would have found somebody to rally around. annuity is newt is a deeply fla. it's hard to get behind him. it's after a grumpy rhino to be a cheerful zebra. he isn't. he isn't going to change his stripes. people don't change. he's not going to fill dramatically between his brain and his mouth. he's not going to suddenly be reaganesque about his optimism about america. i think that's, and the mechanics. for personnity reasons and mechanical reasons his candidaty if he didn't do well in florida -- >> the fundamental problem is newt gingrich depends his entire cycle on debates. it wasn't on giving a speech here or there running an ad, giving a bunch of money. i wasn't about that it was about his performance at the base. when he did well he rosehen he did poorly like in florida, his prlem is there's onlyone debate sitting in february. he's going to lose a series of caucuses up to that debate e has one debate. maybe he's going to perform very well and from that debate he launches into a victory come michigan which i agree. michigan's probably the best stop he has. the next best stop to show he can do that. he only has one debate to do that. he can't run a campaign with a traditional sort of cycle where he gives a bunch of smeaches and expect to get -- smeache smeachd get motivation of that. impossible because mitt romney is of the mind that says i'm not going to do more debates bause it gives him oxygen. that's his best chanlts to get a debate scheduled to give him a lift. >> charlie: go ahead. >> i think without making these nalinganalogies i'm not suggestg newt gingrich is ronald reagan. >> charlie: you hear that, mr. hunt. >> that's okay. al and i have known eac other for decades. >> charlie: he heard us. >> it's all right. quit lying about my record, al. i thought i would -- 1988 which some people thought -- the basic point -- >> i knew ronald reagan, he was a friend of mine. >> m point is a big chunk of the republican party that does not want mitt romney and they don't want mitt romney for reasons beyond mitt romney it's a whole notion of those guys telling us what to do. it's the same reason why the tea party should not be identified with the republican party. they sometimes despite the republicans as much as democrats. my only point if they see in annuity begin rich thnewt gingrr distance content would be a problem for newt. one more thing i'll put on the table what's standing between mitt romney and the nomination and he said mitt romney. there's always tha possibility of front runner. that's all i'm saying. >> charlie: so mitt romney's nomination to lose is what you're saying. >> sure. >> charlie: there's this also. mitt rulmitt romney as a bettern florida, he was a better debater, better at the way he campaigned. he seemed he had gotten a lesson from south carolina and brought in some more advisors, you know and got on track. more confident, more at ease. even singing the battle ofthe republickic. >> rather than citing the red harrison tile which i'm accustomed to do. i don't think it's the best he's been. what he's very good at and what heartened some republicans is they dismantled him. he try to ramg th rattle the ot. it's harder to rattle barack obama rather than rattle newt gingrich. my view of the presidential politics is they have to drive the same messages in the advertising to break through. romney did that beautully in the debates. he did it on the stump, he did it remorselessly. he was a killer politician. >> charlie: if mitt romney if he's the nominee hurting himself about the negative campaign because he's driving away npts - naptentindependence that might e crucial. >> among the independentent indf you compare where they are now to other primary battles, all on of these candidates, gingrich and romney even i think santorum are in much worse shape among the dependents than say obama and clinton and mccain were back in 08. the one thing that romney might be spared, although if newt has anything to say about it he won't be is havin to talk to that key party base so clearly that the independents are hearin that. it's dangerous. >> charlie: one second. no go ahead and we'll come back. >> one tn is that's where this timetable becomes critical. income the longer mitt romney has to distance himself from the kind of attacks and negativity that we haveseen over the st week in florida, the better it is for him. d i suspect it's not, you know, this doesn't foretell necessarily what the general election is going to be like between mitt romney appears the minee and barack obama because the problem here is there really is not a huge amount of policy difference when mitt and newt. they have at the end is to go off on each other on personality. you could still have a general election campaign where what we have seen over the last week is not the total necessarily of the negative attacks because they'll be going after each other on subsntial policy issues of where they want to take the country. >> two things on this. that i think are trouble. one is troubling for the republicans and the other i think is troubling in the race. first if you take at the latt number of the enthusisms for the republicans of their field. it's now at 46%. it's dropped over the course of the last two weeks. in 2008, during the mccain raise when ultimately lost to obama, it was 22 points higher during 2008 of enthusiasm for the candidates. that's a problem on motivation of the base and the people you need. a big problem and that's not going to go away any time soon. the interesting thing to me, if you look at newt gingrich on his own and you look at mitt romney's numbers on his own and if you look at barack obama numbers on his own, all three are unelectable in any environment. brown has y cannot win a general election one-on-one. annuity beginning riches among independents are not where they should be to win an election and romney's number are not where they're going to win it. if this is one-on-one mitt romney versus barack obama, one has to win and that's the situation we're in. we still have a economy that's still suffering, you have a president that's still have you beenable a republican party that's in disarray with people's lack of enthusiasm. come the summer people have to choose between two people they do not want to pick from and they're going to have to choose. >> charlie: go ahead. you were nodding your head. >> i was waiting for the third party to raise its perennial head. >> i think it will ultimately come down to that. to me the general election comes down to this. if it's about mitt romney he loses if it's back obama mitt romney can win. >> charlie: it's a referendum on romney or obamar referendum on the future. let me just ad this i add this f when we look at florida women voard overwhelmingly for romney in this collection. hispanics did what. >> voted overwhelmingly for romney. >> charlie: does that indicate anything for the future. >> november. >> charlie: no, nomination. >> romney still has a lot of work to do with thehispanic voters. >> charlie: how can he help his case on that. >> i ask republicans all the time because if he doesn't improve to go back to whose more unelectable, i don't think he is electable if he doesn't do better with his voters. he's going to have to find a way to do advertising but i don't see the issue on which he ds it. >> this is what republicans were worried about for years and every election, romney had i think i mentioned this to you the other night. i keep looking to california in 2010 and they had it on immigration and it killed her november and i'm sure there are republicans dreading the scenario this fall. >> it's been a scenario developing. we understood this during the bush campaign in 2000 and 20 on 4. the number of republican needs keep rising and republicans keep doing worse since 2004. albert i want to come to another issue that's up between you talk about newt gingrich. he talks about the establishment and how they're against him and that's why he has a grassroots and all of that. there is also this ricia of electability. i mean, whi will mitt romney bee acceptable to conservatives whatever their objections are because he has succeeded on the electability argument. >> looking at those polls in florida he certainly made progress there i agree with jeff that there still is a very very hard core group of resistors. that may sway some of them. though i think the point i guess that matthew made about the enthusiasm gap persist and i'm not quite sure how he addresses that. can i just for just a second go ba to the point they were makingbout immration because i think that is so telling. and matt knows the bushes understood that. it was really interesting that jed bush chose not to endorse mitt romney. you knowçó jed bush if he voted today would vote for mitt romney. i do believe he has a genuine problem with the tone of this debate on the question of immigration and he thinks it going to be injurious to the party in this year and in the future. he said that in an interview over the weekend. >> jed bush talks about the republican party of being at risk of becoming a club where there are people inside it and a whole lot of people are excluded. he says if we kerr carry on likt we can't be the majority party. the demographics don' work in our favor. you got to think that's partly the reason he didn't come out and endorse mitt romney publiy because they are so far apart in tone when it comes to immigration. of all the flops that mitt roey has slipped on, the one on iigration is ing to be the hardest for him to com back from. >> i think the first meeting that he should call once he clenches the non-natio nominatio rubio. >> charlie: what does he say. >> he says i know youd be vice t the country needs you. we're in dire straights i strai. that would be a big start for hispanics and he a pull around the country. i think that's one of the few thing that can get him to the number he needs to get to. >> charlie: what does marco rubio say if that call comes. >> he will probably first try to dodge the call. in the end ... [laughter] but i think in the end having watched this play out with a number of presidential candidates, in the end, if he takes that meeting and takes that call, he can't say no. he has to take it. . >> charlie: okay. are we miss anything here with respect to where this thing is going? what roll i role if any like the republican establishmentall those people like jed bush. i'm told he did very well at the country club on saturday night. is that what you hear as well. >> i hear the same thing charlie. another speaker at the alfalfa club had the line of the he can and i will not identify her. whoever thought in the republican ctest that the polygaus would be the non-mormon. but i heard that jed bush was very very good. >> it's th sameind of situation, who is the guy with one life. >> charlie: so i mentioned a negative campaign. do we see more, more and more of that? does romney say at this time, you know, i did in fact as annuity suggested carpet bombed him in florida and it worked and i'm going to hammer at this fannie mae freddie mac issue until he is dead. >> the unreliability issue. my sense is romney feels threatened by gingrich anywhere in february and certainly in march if it's still germane, they will do the same thing they did in florida. i don't have any reason to believe otherwise. i think he can recover from the that. barack obama did in any campaign ever in 2008 and he ended up fine with independents and favorability. >> charlie: not an issue for you. >> i don't think it will hurt him as long as they try to keep him away from somef it. you mentioned the establishment too. i don't see a scenario right now where this doesn't go to march. the establishment will snd a lot of february saying newt should get out. the problem iseing favored in these states in february those wins will be discounted. he won't get that much momentum unlessgingrich challenges. we get to march and at that point if romney holds his own the first two weeks in march then i think the establishment will feel they can get gingrich out of the race and they will try. >> in your bootry. >> itry. >> charlie: in your game, how is it tt the tea party that was so important in the primaries, in the 2010, not being able to determine the nominee in 2012. >> it's a big story. had one run much stronger than newt gingrich and tapped into the tea party they may have been competitive with mitt romney and even won. the tea party has had a huge influence the reason they're not that influential is their issue has been subsumed into the party. the republican party stands first and foremost for deficit reduction. that's what romney is running on. it's hazard for them to coalesce completely. >> charlie: the primary issue for the tea party. >> for snding taxes. >> here's one of the things to keep in mind. we're not going to have a broken convesm. convesm -- convention. we may well have a contentious convention because under the rules, inhesense if newt gingrich can get floorit pluralf delegates in five states people can put his name in nomination. if the combined anti-romney forces have enough delegates, enough presence on the committee to bring platform challenges to the floor and rules challenges and if that, if there is a sentiment within the tea party folks that ty are being jogged once again, remember how late george mcgovern's acceptance speech was. there was a potential to turn that info must be and that's assuming he's the nominee coming into the convention has to do a lot of negotiation if that other group gets enough strength. >> i think the tea party coalescing around the candidate and their performance hasn't been the problem. they've wantedo and they've been ready to coalesce behind somebody and they've tried. they went to try to rick pier, the -- rick perry the governor of texas. he led the race. every time they go to a leader, they become incompetent or do they. they went to rick perry they were ready to do that he led the polls he failed didn't perform well. they went to newt gingrich, he doesn't perform well. the tea party is still a major force in the republican party, wants to coalesce behind a candidate, does not like mitt romney but every person they settle on has had flaws or hasn't performed well. that's been a problem, a candidate or leader problem not a tea party organizational problem. >> charlie: albert speaking of t tea party. >> charlie. >> charlie: yes, katty, please. >> that's one of the stories of this election. it's not just the tea party issue in terms of falling if love with the candidates. i wasn't in florida but some of the earlier primaries and i was really struck by how many republicans and not necessarily people who identified themselves as tea party supporters said to me we just don't understand it. we have aountry over 300 million ople and this is what we come up with. it expired. republicans are numbe number --e numbers suggest this is an election that a strong republican candidate at least halz a very good shot at. it's really been striking to me how many voters have said that line again and again about in such a large country this is what we can come up with. >> charlie: you mean they actually said they were flu plvmenflumxed? [laughter] >> let me do something which i love to do is agr with mr. green field, he's absolutely correct about the convention. ron paul is not going away. we talked about rick santorum earlier. ron paul is going with a couple hundred delegates. if you look at the caucus states he could conceivably best a plurality in five of them. he's a factor too. there's all the ingredients for chaos which all of us journalists love. >> charlie: mark. >> the romney campaign did what the obama campaign did. they understand the rules of the caucus states they're on the ballot everywhere. they're going to try to amass a lot of delegates in the caucus states. i agree with al some is unpredictable. paul could be strong enough. >> charlie: i know about one closer i would know the answer to this but why didn't the clinton campaign understand the porms of the caucus states. >> because they were disorganized and assumed they would win early. >> the motion important fact of that race obama netted more delegates than clinton did in winning pennsylvania and ohio. that to me almost defines what we're talking about. they just knew the rules and i thought the clinton campaign thought this was the electtruft college. you win ohio you win the delegates. >> al said something a little bit off camera i heard him about the establishment not existing. they don't exist the way they used to for al whether it was alfalfa club dinners every night, poker games with chief justices. i know that's all gone away with bottles of milk on the back porch. the establishment caidate is on the precipice of winning the nomination. the establishment is the people who paid newt gingrich over the years anmade him a millionaire. if they cut him off will make it harder for him to continue. >> charlie: they are prepared to do that. >> they are the members of congress who flooded florida this week and dominated the earned media by saying newt gingrich is unreliable conservative and unreliable leader. they're not the force they once were but a lot of people in our establishment have played a big role. >> if i was still, and i'm retired from this business so i'm not in this one but i would love to be able to run a populist competent candidate in this environment. because a conservative populous competent candidate against the establishment staying i don't care -- they would specifically it would be best if it's a woman but the competent woman conservative populous isn't competent. former governor of alaska. >> charlie: former nominee of your party. >> not my party, i'm an independent these days. [laughter] >> i wld love to have been able to run that campaign but that's the problem. who is that person. >> charlie: go ahead, katty. >> why is that person not there. why are they not running. >> charlie: yes, matthew. >> i think why are they not running, i think we could probably -- >> charlie: would christy be at person. >> he could have been but the reason they're not running we could probably have an hour long discussion or more on this. >> charlie: we have three minutes. >> the problem is the environment we're in people go up there and feel completely exposed and feel everything happening in my life is fair game. >> charlie: is that the reason chri christy didn't run. >> i think chris christie, the governor of new jersey, the process would reveal thiksz he would not like revealed in the course of the race. i'm absolutely convinced of that. i'm not saying i know what they are. >> charlie: all right. it ought to be in the book for sure. here's the thing -- >> charlie you have to be a really brave person and a really politically talented person to run as a populist to try to beat the republican nominee. your populist message is going to cape you from raising money the traditional way from bund lurs. you have to raise it on the internet. palin had the capacity that's why she might have been a strong candidate. chris christie, jeff dan annuals, haley barber, some people who sd they could have filled that role they would have spent a lot of money and time in the city raising money the old fashion non-populist way. >> charlie: do you have in mind a candidate that might have been able to do that? anybody you know in washington? >> jed bush is the obvious one that comes toind although'm not sure i wouldn't say he's a populist. he's not a populist. >> charlie, can i just make a quick point about the establishment. i'm glad halperin has kept two of his three white ties. it's an establishment but it's not very powerful mark, i don't believe it is. for a minority of the party but a sizeable minority of the party a bob dole endorsement for mitt romney is good for annuity begin rich. it goes -- goonewt gingrich. it has less clout and cuts both ways. >> charlie: do you have anything. >> i'm thinking it's going to be the most, t number of regrets that are going to run through the republican party over the next few months, we had such, we have a shot of this guy and we're not in the shape we could have been in with the right candidate. >> on that i have to say thank you. >> charlie: thank you very much jeff, welcome, ank you katty, mark ank you all. we'l have more analyses tomorrow with david brooks coming up and his attorney douglas brinkley on this program. he talks about the new audio tapes of john f. kennedy. we've heard of tapes that's not been heard before talking about what was tranmitted from the plane bringing the president's body from texas to washington. these came from ted clipton his former military aide extraordinary stuff that gives you a sense of history and doug brinkley understands this part of her hisry and talks about what these tapes mean. doug brinkley from rice coming up now. dismievment president john f. kennedy was kill on november 22, 1963 while traveling motorcade. he was the youngest elected president and the youngest to die. nearly 50 years since his debt the details continue to be analyze and sometimes even questioned. now for the first time the complete audio record of the air force one flight from dallas to washington has been releases. the tape provides new insight into the grief and confused experience the hours ter the assassination. doug brinkley joins me from washington. he's a presidential historian and a professor of history at rice university and i'm pleased to have him on this program. welcome. >> thanks, charlie. >> charlie: set for us the context of tse tapes and how many were they and what did they say. >> many times they focus on the grassy knoll or book depository or the memorial hospital but the tapeof air force one and flying all t just craziness that ensued in dallas people trying to get kennedy's body on air force one, get the nurse lady, lyndon johnson and these tapes pick up a t of that. the warren commission had access to it but mysteriously enough a lot got edited out so this new discovery is about 43 to 44 minutes of brand new material. and so for scholars of the kennedy assassinationt's a lot of new puzzle pieces to kind of put in there. and it tells more of a story less about who killed kennedy than the way the u.s. government responded to the death of kennedy. >> charlie: you are a believer that oswald was a lone assassin. >> i bought into the posner case closed but i don't believe the warren commission is correct either. they got a lotight but there is a lot of mysterious missing pieces. i don't really think we yet know whose payroll oswald on or what his pure motivation was, whether cuba was involved, the union was involved, are the mob. bumore than that, 9 warren -- the warren commission was an attempt to sweep this issue under a rug. it's easy to forget, charlie, just how worried people were this was an international conspiracy and how quickly ndon johnson needed to get this whole kennedy assassination behind him. and in doing that i thi things wereedacted, edited and empt can from the warren commission to get closure and of course the american people haven' wanted closurabout it for a while, they want answers. and this new tape is going to start raising more questions and provide a few more answers. >> charlie: what questions does it raise and whatnswers disitdoes it provide. >> the main question raises is why now. when oliver stone's movie came out in 1991, we had by 92 the john fnch f. kennedy assassinatn act where all available documentation came together but not this tape. and it turned out this tape was in the possession of the military aide of gen f john f. kennedy. the warren commission and the intelligence gathering mechanisms couldn't fi the tape but a dealer out of a book dealer an aquarium bookdealer out of philadelphia confined it. it's only going to open up a so-called case closed theory. and in this particular tape it raises some question about curtis lamay for example. one of the very significant as you know cold war figures who was angry about kennedy in cuba, thought we had really lost the showdown over the cuban missile crises because we cut a deal with the jupiter missiles in turkey. and lamay famesl wanted to use a nucleareapon if he had to win the cold war. here is on the tape lamay being injected for the first time in the drama and the hours after kennedy's death. >> charlie: let's set the record straight on a couple things. no one ever suggested lamay threat unthe presidentor there's no evidence of anything like that. >> nothing. it's more of a mystery where he was at until now and he never really answered it for security reasons. and this tape places him on a military plane at the time because a colonel olson is trying to get through to general lamay and you can hear on the tape where lamay actually is. >> charlie: who is colonel olson, who is he and where is lamay and where is he trying to get through to him. >> we don't know why he was trying to get through. but what he said is if i don't get through it will be too late. now what that means is just another mystery. too late for what. it may be that there was some information coming across where to move the body or there was also a frantic kind of look for congressman in texas which makes sense to me that suddenly people are wondering where other politicians being sought after in texas. but law may, because he went on to be the vice president, vice presidential supporter of george wallace and sort of the representative of the hawkish prosegregationnti-kennedy views, somebody our government thought it was important to cut him out of the tape. i don't, you know, if he would have been left in, it would have helped scholars understand what lamay was doing until now. this new tape, there's a whole field, a cottage stride of people that study the kennedy assassination and this is going to offer them a lot to look into. because there are a lot of code names that somebody like myself can't decipher at this point with people calling in. >> charlie: left me go back to general lamay. did anybody ever question him about any of this, ask him where he was and why it had remained miss tharys tmysterious to othed what he knew about anything. >> he was quiet and mum about it. at least we can place where he was. the point is lamay has been part, there's a group of conspiracy people that somehow have evok the name of may. now in the killing of kennedy that i'm not giving creedance to that but suddenly here we find in that lamay has been cut out of a tape by the government and now he's reappearing. he may have been wanting to check in on just logistical issue where the colonel may have been looking for him for who knows what reason. the real fine here about this particular tape is why couldn't the american people have heard this full air force one version long ago. why does it take an odd ball dissceer to brindiscovery to br. >> charlie: what's the answer to that. >> well one may be that general clifton, the military aide this and just kept it. he died and his wife died and this surfaced in a estate sale and thing do surface in estate sales. he may never have wanted to bring it to light. he obviously was working for the pent gun. a lot of is of this is not wanting to create panic. so many code names were edited out. for exple general lamay's nickname was grandfather we if you know. to be included in the tape it would expose his code name and we'd have to change people, it would be feeding the soviet union some of our intelligence so our government decided to edit some of that out. >> charlie i wt to listen to a couple of the tapes and we'll talk more about him. vice preside johnson or by this time he was sworn in giving his condolences to rose kennedy. this is what it sounded like. >> i'm reading you loud and clear. i have ms. kennedy standing by ready with volunteers. >> yes, we're ready. can you put her on and i'll ton her over to him. >> roger. she's coming on now. af1 mrs. kennedy go ahead plays. >> hello mrs. kennedy. we're talking from the airplane, can you hear us all right. >> hello. >> yes, mrs. kennedy. this is -- reporting here. mrs. kennedy. >> [indiscernible] i know [indiscernible] well, all right. >> charlie: to repeat, that was recorded i guess on air force one where general ted clifton was, lyndon johnson reaching out to rose kennedy the mother of president kennedy. she says thank you very much and she says i know you loved jack and i know he loved you. just to give you on sense of history here. awe tents were made to contact secretary of state dean rusk. here is that audiotape. >> all available information on president follows colonel general -- and govern conolly in texas have been hit memoranda car which they were riding. we do not know how serious the situation is. we have no information. mr. bradley smith is back here in the situation room now. we're getting our information over the particularrers. over the ticks. >> affirmative affirmative. please advise on which secretary of state and other cab nut cabie heading for japan turning around and arriving in hanna honolulu. >> understanding that they will be arriving in honolul is that correct. >> affirm. we need all the information to decide whether they should go directly to dallas, over. >> charlie: there it is history for our own ears. what else is there to discover in terms of documentation or in terms of recordings or anything that might be enormously relevant that we have not heard because of some legal degree or somebody has asked it remain private for a certain number of years after their death. >> those are good questions. you just heard them trying to contact secretary of state rusk in asia. i recently saw stoorl stewart ul writing in his papers when they we can look at udall's notes what he wrote what they were all saying and feeling. that's another example of the udall notes mixed with this tape you just heard. you'll pea abl be able to recong and reconstructing what happened on that, in that, just gold star awful moment in american history. the whole story i think of air force one is right for rethinking because the drama that we've talked so much aut, because we have the film along the grassy knoll and people know that film footage the visual of that. i think these tapes on air force one, rethinking about what that long journey was like from dallas to washinon, there's great work for storage to restruck that trip. on these tails for example you hear them saying that the body is goi to go to walter reed hospital and of course it end up at thanko bethesda naval hospit. some people thought rose kennedy wanted it there bause she wanted to remind peoe of jack kennedy's service during world war ii. nevertheless we're hearin for the first time the call the assumption on the whole flight they would be heading to walter reed and you get the quick turn at bethes bethesda. for people who want to reconstruct it's important. >> charlie: any particular thing we're waiting to get. we've heard some of the things that mrs. kennedy said before she died. thing she told people in oral history at the time. and later. >> this may be be as good as yoe going to get because general clifton, when i say military aide he was in the motorcade when kennedy was killed and he was the person tasked with dealing with all of military arrangements after the, you know, he was shot. and so this is the fact that we're able n to get kind of an idea of what he had to deal with in coordinating just le you heard mrs. nnedy calling in and talking with lyndon johnson. we're able to kind of do a recreation. obviously what people are looking for is who killed kennedy. i think the big question still remaining is why did oswalddo it. and why did, for example, when oswald was arrested and he was interrogated by police,hy wasn't that tape. why was so security so lax that jack rub can shoot him. these are burninguestions that american people have. we're approaching charlie the 50th anniversary in november 2013 of the kennedy assassination. tom hank is working on an hbo documentary, a long one about all of this. i know a number of very good authors th are working on books dealing with this. so i think in the next year or too we're going to be relooking at that day because along with 9/11 and pearl harbor where people don't forget where the were. >> charlie: when you look at all of this, what do you feel about the motivation of lee harvey oswald and any connection to either cuba or the mob. >> well, i've always, i mean norman mailer wrote an unusual book trying to go to minsk and follow what a oswald did in russia. but because he was spent so much time in the soviet blok is quoit odd that odd walled had experience as a sniper, the fact he was hanging out in nor liens, liens -- new orleans, supporting castro. what was the payoff for castro, the lone geek deciding he will make the history books and here we are talking about him. or was he part of a larger copiracy. was somebody angry what bobby kennedy was going after jimmy hofhoffa, the teamsters. >> charlie: my questi is you as an historian and a good one, have you seen anything, anything to indicate that there was these connections? >> there's battle an bits and pt the problem is oswald could have made the shot. right after the man named lou wood a reporter for cbs news went right up to the book depository and had a rifle, did a, cbs would run and anger mrs. ke kennedy they showed how easy the shot was by the begunman. people say there were other people on the grassy knoll. if you can break them down to three different issues, who shot kennedy, who was oswald working for and what was the u.s. government's response, is the warren commission a viable historical document. then you're getting really three different areas that are still intensely being debated and scroot nayse naysedscrutinized. >> charlie: you haven't seen any other that indicates any conclusive conclusions on any of these questions. >> the most conclusive is what the warren commission said. oswald did it and he was a lone gunman. bend it it's a lot of circumstantial evidence but it would be hardto convict in a court of law the soviet union or cuba or the chicago mob or the teamsters or lyndon johnson as some people think. the evidence just isn't there in that kind of overwhelming way. >> charlie: did the warren commission talk to lyndon johnson? >> yes. and the warren commission released the, you know, lyndon johnson got the warren commission release. it came out originally i think it was something 26 volumes. but there was a thought that the tape wasdited on a force one. but by 92 when the investigation came, this sort of tape was supposed to have been in our national archive records. right now, they are up until this week, this tape was a different tape existed in the kennedy library and the national archives. this new tape has now been donated and it will be considered a more thorough and coequential air force one tape of that day. >> charlie: again, as one who is interested in historical figures, what duty tapes at the white house tell you about president kennedy. >> i think his reputation has ne up because of the whitehouse tape. compared to johnson and vul gairity coming across the tapes but i think it helps him slightly because it shows johnson caring about the poor during that whole great society period and richard next instance who gets tarred and feathered through anti-semetic remarks is ugly in the tapes. kennedy looks good, he controlled them and used them in a limited fashion. his leadership through the cube i missile crises in borrow line were really -- berlin were quite remarkable. before this air force one, yes that tape's pretty interesting only in regard you can see how much hewlett-packar hubris he h. one hand he's talking to someone and on the other he's playing with his kids. there's a wholeness to john kennedy where the tapes are enhancing his reputation hitting the 50th an verse very. the kennedy library is very wise to release these. it only makes kennedy looklike perhaps a little bit likehe camelot that some people wondered whether it was a myth or not. we had quite a leader in john f. kennedy. >> charlie: thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you very much. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org today on "ask this old house"...