protestors and media can never go to and can never spotlight. that's the real terror that you're filled with over there. >> rose: we continue from cairo with mounir abdel-nour of the opposition party, the secular wafd party and has been in negotiations with the government. >> the young egyptians, full of hope, full of ambition, wanting to change the culture of their country, empowered by the internet, by the twitter and the facebook, they have decided to go to the streets to demonstrate and they have shaken the country and they've been able to accomplish in less than ten years much, much more. in fact, what all political parties have been unable to achieve in more than 25 years. >> rose: we conclude this evening from cairo with mohamed abd el-illah, assistant secretary-general of the national democratic party which is the mubarak party. >> you will not have a total change overnight. but the plan is for changing. the plan is in favor of more... of total freedom of expression but not chaos. >> rose: conversations of and about egypt when we continue. maybe you want school kids to have more exposure to the arts. maybe you want to provide meals for the needy. or maybe you want to help when the unexpected happens. whatever you want to do, members project from american express can help you take the first step. vote, volunteer, or donate for the causes you believe in at membersproject.com. take charge of making a difference. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: today thousands of protestors gathered in egypt in cairo's tahrir square as that country's popular uprising entered its third week. despite new concessions offered by the government, the crowds are still demanding the departure of president hosni mubarak. the obama administration has been struggling to keep pace with the rapidly changing events. secretary of state hillary clinton told a european security conference on saturday those of us who are trying to make helpful offers of assistance and suggestions for how to proceed are still at the end on the outside looking in. joining me now by phone from cairo is "new york times" columnist in roger cohen. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: so tell me where we are at this monday late night in cairo. >> well, today the government, president hosni mubarak, seemed to be reasserting control, at least to some degree. cairo had an air of greater normalcy. there was more traffic, banks open at least for a couple of hours and the government immediately put through a 15% pay rise, the government workers, in an attempt to calm things. but the protests atta rear square continue with many, many thousands of people still in the square and the standoff remains. the protestors who insist that hosni mubarak, president of 30 years, must go now and mubarak seemingly increasingly supported by western governments saying no he will remain until elections that were l supposedly be free and fair in which he will not participate in september. >> rose: if he remains, as you say, supported by western governments, does that mean that he will have a nominal role and will not be in a significant place either in terms of power or influence? >> i don't know about that, charlie. he headed the meeting today, omar suleiman, the newly installed vice president, has been mubarak's man for decades now. there's no reason to think that he won't continue to listen to his boss. afrtd and i think the big question hanging over the next several months-- if, indeed, mubarak does remain-- is can a man, can a system that has been about repression in varying degrees for three decades morph into an organization that could somehow prepare an open, free, and fair election. i think there has to be a lot of doubts about that, not least because one of the demands of the opposition, which is that the emergency law that has been in place for 30 years, too, in which in an essence gives mubarak and suleiman the right to arrest anyone at any time and hold them for as long as they like they-- suleiman and mubarak-- have refused to revoke this law. so how you can prepare and election that will satisfy the opposition with that law in place is a mystery, at least to me. >> rose: beyond the immediate departure, as they say, of hosni mubarak, what else are they insisting on? what else are the conditions for them? those who are... you've written admiring about that are in tahrir square. >> well, that is absolutely the number one... i think if he left, you know, they would go home. they might not all go home immediately, but they would start going home. that would be the victory that the people in the square are looking for. beyond that, the release, the immediate release, of all political prisoners, some of whom have disappeared, as you know, in the last couple of weeks. one thankfully prominent one, the google executive wael ghonin was released today. there's also the disillusion of the parliament that was chosen in a completely farcical election last november that even by mubarak standards was regarded as a complete joke. but there's no joke that the obsession of mohammed elbaradei is seeing his back. i saw a prominent industrialist who's among the so-called group of wise men who did meet with mubarak. his feeling was that those in tahrir square should declare victory. he said, look, we've already got a promise mubarak will leave. we've got the effective dismemberment of the national democratic party, which is the public party that has run egypt since sadat times. we've got the promise of a free and fair election so why not declare victory instead of insisting that he has to go for that victory to be? well, the fact is that these protestors are not satisfied and one can see why they would have great suspiciouss, as i outlined over what might happen in the next few months. when suleiman met with abc's christian a.m. pour, he said "look, there's no culture of democracy in this country, there are foreign forces, foreign agendas pushing the use of egyptian into this pro-democratic party. these were not the words of someone who made you feel confident that egypt has really turned the page when it comes to installing democracy. >> rose: the thing that i got from the writing is what you have made clear on just that point. that the reason they are not satisfied, the protestors, with simply having him take some role that does not have the power of the president behind it is that they don't trust the fact that there will be free elections which suggest that if they believe there will be free elections they would be less concerned about him >> i think so. i think from the recent statements of secretary of state hillary clinton and profrom the ogs in general unlike in iran, the u.s. does have leverage through the immense amount of aid that we give the egyptian military and the close relationship with egypt and i think obama administration has a lot riding on this if egypt does not hold a decent election in september and if this huge protest movement does not produce a society with more of the human and civil rights about which president obama talks so much. and that will be a fill your for the obama administration. so i think administration is taking the view at least that it can influence, pressure suleiman with whom we have a close relationship into doing what is promised. producing these reforms within six months, finding time for political parties to come into being, talk to the egyptian people. it's all pretty far-fetched in a way when you think of the very close time frame. and certainly elbaradei says it's not possible. we need mubarak to go, he says, and we need a year to prepare elections. >> rose: i want to turn to one thing that i thought you wrote about really well, which is the sense of dignity that pervades the people that you have met. i'm quoting now from a man who said "why would we trust him now to play it right?" that's the question the west hand answered. you say "the deeper problem is more culture than political, to accept the mubarak or chaos argument is a form of disrespect to the civility and capacity of tahrir square. it's an expression of western failure before the exploding arab thirst for dignity and representative government. it reflects the old conditioning which sees in an egyptian culture that was after all deep enough and realistic enough to accept peace with israel no more than a disaster waiting to happen if the iron fist is removed. western leaders say events in the arab world should spur israelis and palestinians to peace because they know how unstable the reason is. wrong, you say. this is the only sustainable peace, one based on arab self-respect and self-expression." in a sense it is the feeling of their own egyptian heritage, their sense of... what? help me understand what you feel the poetry of the people is. >> well, i think... i think, charlie, that, you know, there's a sense that this great nation has been in a big sleep, in a long slumber. mubarak has kept the peace, let's hand that to him. there's been wars throughout the middle east in the last 30 years. egypt has been at peace but he has been and remains to this day tremendously risk-averse and he's an army man who has used repression to deny free expression like so many other despots in this arab jurassic park that we see unraveling to some degree. and i think what you see... i saw it in tunisia, i see it here i ran into a guy in tahrir square, a publishing executive and i said "how do you feel?" and he said "i feel like a human being." i said, "what do you mean? he said, "well, i feel like what i do has meaning. i feel like what i do can have an effect. for the first time i feel that my actions are meaningful." >> rose: time is on whose side? >> i think time has to be on the side of the reformist push for some kind of better society in egypt where people have rights. where the rule of law is not just something inside hosni mubarak's head. where there is an independent judiciary. where people can vote. where political parties can form go out, and try to get people to vote for them. and all that has been denied for a long time and, of course, it's been denied with western backing and i don't think this is a chapter that the united states either wants to see prolonged. i think president obama has made it clear that the time has come to move on. >> rose: roger, thank you so much. pleasure to have you here. >> thank you, charlie. great to talk to you. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: we continue our coverage of egypt since the protests began 13 days ago. egyptian activists, demonstrators and several foreign journalists were captured. some were threatened and some were beaten. joining me now from washington is lara logan, she is the chief foreign affairs correspondent of cbs news, she also reports if "60 minutes." she returned from egypt on friday. last week she and her crew members were detained while reporting in cairo. here's a look at one of her reports. >> >> "mubarak, wake up" chant it had crowd. thousands of voices rising up in this ancient city founded by al sander the great. today alexandria is the stronghold of egypt's extremist muslim brotherhood. and scene of some of the largest and most violent demonstrations over the past week. but even here this revolution belongs to the people, not the muslim brotherhood. >> they're not the most popular group, but they are the most organized ones and we are about to organize ourselves in order to face them a fair and free election. so please don't... we will not see a new iran. i i this political science graduate working for the u.n. was one of many professionals in the crowd. >> mubarak must go! must go! >> it was hard to imagine anyone could have silenced these people for so long. >> the government thinks that we will stop one day. we will never do that! we will stay! we prefer to die. >> let me ask you a question. >> will you accept anything from them? >> no, no, no! >> here amongst the crowd in alexandria you can feel the hatred for the egyptian president. these people are not interested in compromise. they want hosni mubarak to step down. suddenly, the protestors erupt. a rumor sweeps the crowd, hovpls is gone. but it quickly dies followed by disbelief that the president hasn't yielded to their will. are people surprised that he's still there? >> yes. doesn't he have any dignity? sqlipgs people are saying we don't want you. why are you still here? >> rose: i'm pleased to have lara logan back on this program. welcome. >> thank you very much, charlie. >> rose: tell me impressions of being there from someone who's seen conflict in lots of different places, wars in different places. give me a sense of how you saw this. >> you know, i think the most frightening thing that i witnessed was waking up the morning after mubarak's speech. because the day before in alexandria there had been 100 people on the streets and people were anxious to speak and speak freely and the very next day, the army came out with their announcement it's time for everybody to go home and it was literally like someone had flipped a switch and it went from being this almost euphoric atmosphere to the fear and intimidation that i've experienced in places like syria which is even worse than egypt in some ways. that was what shocked me because in alexandria, unlike cairo, the vast majority of the protestors stayed home. there were about 15 people in the very place where something close to 100,000 people stood the day before and those people were suddenly so isolated and vulnerable. and we were heavily, heavily intimidated and bullied repeatedly. followed, accused of being agents for... and spies for israel and it was... we didn't even have our cameras with us at that point and just for speaking to some of the protests or i was approached by three or four different men. my teammates were approached and that was very striking, charlie, because you got a glimpse of what life could be like for those protestors if they failed to turn out in great numbers in tahrir square in cairo. they will be so vulnerable and the government will pick them off one by one by one. it was really the first sign of the strategy of the mubarak regime. they want the spotlight turned off. they want the attention to go away. this is all about the flow of information for them and they want to put an end to that and the army went from being on the outskirts to being right there front and center. the civilian checkpoints along the road, they went from being oh, you know, camera, camera good, sorry for searching, being happy to embrace you as a journalist. they went from saying "no camera no camera, no filming, no filming." it was an instant crackdown. that experience of being on the receiving end of a dictatorship when the state wants to shut you down was very telling because you've heard for years people talking about why does the u.s. support mubarak when we have no human rights and when they do this and that? but when you experience even a tiny bit of it it gives you a different understanding. and, of course, this is nothing compared to what they're capable of and nothing compared to what egyptians have experienced for decades and still face today and what i fear they could face, you know, it's going too get much worse, i think. >> rose: and it continues to this day. it didn't subside after the immediate clashes and attacks on reporters. : no, it's quite extraordinary. my first instinct when the egypt story started was that mubarak was not going to step down. then i thought well maybe i'm wrong. but what i've seen as it's developed, it's quite extraordinary how he has come up with a strategy and i believe his... the people who relies on, the institution of the army, its leadership and all the other senior political figures that are standing with him they have devised a strategy and they don't look like they have any intention of bending. >> rose: are so you don't think mubarak will go? >> you know, i'm not... i could easily be wrong. but my gut from the mubarak that i experienced in the middle east from my experience of being in the middle east is that he would not go. i will say, however, that i've never seen anything like what is happening in cairo. i mean, i have, actually, i've seen in the africa, i saw in the zimbabwe, i saw in the south africa but i've never seen hit in the middle east where people in the face of extreme intimidation and knowing that they could pay for this with their lives will go out day after day after day and put themselves in that situation. because the government has everything to lose and they're set up to deal with this and the protestors, they can't go to their jobs, very often they're sleeping in terrible, terrible conditions. all of that's been widely reported now. you can just imagine what it must take to be in that square and to have no idea what's coming at you next. and they don't know they can count on the army. they don't know that. there's a lot of talk about that and where the army stands on this and people say that the army is siding with the people and they did come out with their statement saying they sympathize with the protestors. but the army is not preventing them from being attacked. there may have been incidented here and there. but i was with one of the main organizers of the protests when he was getting calls from tahrir square from one of the protest there is who was screaming his scareally "why did the army do this to us? how could they let them in to athe tack us." and our own experience of the army's role in this is not the picture that has been painted that they are taking this mutual stance and if anything siding with the people. i believe that the army as an institution stands firmly behind the mubarak regime at this point. that can change and there are soldiers within the army who may not agree with that but i don't think the army is being honest about what they're really doing on the streets of cairo in daylight and at night. >> rose: even though the reputation of the army? egypt is one that is admired by the populous? >> no question and people said to me "my brother is in the army. my cousin is in the army. we like the army." i think they like the army because they're very professional and the police are the bad guys. but no one underestimate what is the army is capable of. they've lived with this in egypt. they know better than we know what the army is capable of. and they have been... the evidence is very clear. the army didn't stop anyone from attacking these protestors. they're not actively siding with the people. at some point when you try to be neutral, failure to act is the same as acting at some point and they're choosing a side in my view. >> rose: what do they think of omar suleiman? the army? >> i found that such an interesting appointment. that... for mubarak to say, okay this is a step forward, i understand that not having a vice president all that time it was a step forward just to have one but the minister of intelligence? i mean, are you kidding? what does a police state and dictatorship function on? they function on intelligence. this is ingrained in this society. people informing on each other and these networks of intelligence. that's what really strangles the people. that's how you're denied your freedoms. you see it everywhere. being on the receiving end, being on the inside when we were detained i had... i got a chance to look around at who some of these people are working for military intelligence and i thought i had a good idea of being able to spot the agent in the street or wherever. i had no idea the scale and length and breadth of their scope in society. we had an 18-year-old kill dressed up in a track suit with sneakers and a big stick who you would never in a million years have thought this guy was as powerful and as senior within this intelligence apparatus as he was. a man who's presided over the emergency restrictions and egypt under mubarak i don't see how that can be a step forward. now, that's just my view. when i spoke to people on the streets they were mixed and there was definitely concern about him but not as much concern as i would have anticipateed. even among the protestors there were people willing to give him a chance. >> i have seen this in terms of being willing to give him a chance but reasons that different people have expressed in different ways. with respect to the united states and the people you talked to, whatever the sample was, how did they feel about what the united states has done and the positions it seems to have taken about mubarak and change? >> you know, this is a very interesting question and i got the feeling that the u.s. cannot win on this one because the protestors are interested in diplomatic speech and careful language. they wanted to know unequivocally that president obama and the u.s. was on their side. they said for years you've supported mubarak, you've supported this regime but they know that what they represent those are the fundamental ideals on which the united states is built. that's the constitution, freedom of speech and all the other rights that they're fighting for. so they want an unequivocal statement of support and show of support. they didn't feel they were getting that in the beginning and the nuances were lost on them or they didn't care for them. on the other side, i will say that there's no question the feeling from the mubarak regime was that egypt is viewed as a blood brother of the united states by many of them because of how closely they work with the u.s. in terms of the war on terror and what theydo for the u.s. in that fight no that no one is allowed to talk about because it's black operations and classified and not known in the public eye. and the feeling was that you took your blood brother and threw us under the bus, you're traitors. and the hatred was unbelievable. it really was. there's an underlying resentment towards the u.s. from, for example, the muslim brotherhood, extremist groups and other people who feel that you can't have it both ways, you can't stand human rights. but the very interesting die 'nam that i can came out of this situation, when president obama made that phone call to mubarak where he is said to have really pressured him and secretary of state came out with her strongest statements. that was a defining turning point. that was the day we became enemies of the egyptian state. that was the day really that our strategic relationship with egypt was redefined at that point. it's not that we don't other allies in the middle east but egypt was our right hand. and that is no longer the case. and that is a fundamental shift. the implications of which most of us will probably never know. we don't even know the full extent of that relationship as it stood before this crisis. snuf you have always been willing to go in harm's way for a good story and this is obviously a powerful story. , so i mean, would you go back? do you want to be thereby? what keeps you from being there? >> well you try to be smart about these things and, yes i would go back. it would depend entirely on the circumstances. if i could get an interview with hosni mubarak i would go back tomorrow to do that interview. am i just going to go back and throw myself into the same circumstances? that doesn't seem smart. our problem, fundamentally, charlie, was that we didn't have the proper paperwork to be in egypt as journalists. so so the excuse for the army, the police, for anybody, is always there. and they let us know in no uncertain terms that they were tracking us that they knew who we were, they photographed us before we were blindfolded and my colleagues max mclellan and don lee were handcuffed although max was held separately and we didn't know it at that point. and when you have experiencing with these situations you look at the dynamics. it's very hard for me to be away from this story. i feel in one sense like a failure professionally. i feel like i failed because i didn't deliver and i take that responsibility very seriously. we're still working on the story but it's in my blood to be there and to be on the street and listening to people and to do the best reporting that i can. at the same time, i'm also aware of that fact that i put my family through a difficult situation and, you know, it's very easy to look at these things in hindsight and say okay why didn't you stay? they didn't deport you. the circumstances had fundamentally shifted when they turned us out on to the street if 4:00 in the afternoon to 8:00 in the morning. that's a long, long, long night. so there was no question after we were we were subjected to. and one of the most dangerous accusations you can have leveled at you is that you're a spy or an agent for a foreign government and that's the kind of accusation against which you have no defense and which can very easily get you killed and you better take it seriously. and you better take a step back from that and think about how you're going to do this so that you don't subject people... one thing that i do want to say though. this is the first time... your program is the first time i have spoken publicly about this because i'm very conscious of the fact that our egyptian driver was extremely badly beaten in the same interrogation cells where we were held and those people are still there. it's t egyptians. in the end foreign journalists have a safe place to go but these people don't and i truly feel for the people that are there and watch what they're being subjected to. because even if you're seeing the headlines on the streets and the protests, it's what happens after dark, what happens behind closed doors, it's what happens in those places, those rooms that the protestors and the media can never go to and can never spotlight, you know? that's the real terror that you're filled with over there. >> rose: let me turn quickly to afghanistan. petraeus has been there for a while now. there's much discussion of wareham ham is and what he intends to do and there's who's winning and who's not and the changes petraeus has brought. where is afghanistan in your judgment both in terms of the civil effort as well as the military strategy? >> i think afghanistan is in the worst situation that it's ever been in. for me it's shameful that no one is talking about the fact that there's a complete breakdown in diplomacy in afghanistan ever afghanistan. there is almost no relationship between hamid karzai and the u.s. ambassador carl eikenberry. that's filtered down to every effort and it drastically affects the u.s. relationship. to me the problem in afghanistan is not military. yes, i mean, on the battlefield we face all kinds of obstacles that are incredibly difficult. yes there's been progress in the south. there's no doubt from speaking to commanders and soldiers and afghans that we have progressing in the south but whether that means anything at all to me it doesn't mean anything at all ultimately because the problem in afghanistan is political and nothing has been done to address the political crisis that afghanistan is in right now. the ethnic divisions have never been worse since the change of government. the country in my mind is headed on a path to civil war and we have undermined president karzai we have destroyed his relationship with the u.s., and we tried to rehabilitate him then we repeatedly destroyed again and again. and it just seems to me it's almost criminal to send your soldiers into harm's way to carry out a strategy that is fundamentally flawed. you can't support a government you have undermined and one of the greatest strategies of afghanistan is that we've used corruption, all of us, the afghans and the u.s. and our allies. corruption became the answer to everything. it's all nonsense. it's absolute nonsense. it dealt with corruption from day one and there's no question that corruption effects what is happening on the battlefield. but the real issues are not about corruption. the real issues are political. there's no political consensus in afghanistan. there's no political consensus to move the country forward and there's almost no diplomatic relationship left between the u.s. on the ground and the afghans and that has ramification across the battlefield so those things are completely related and i think we're in a bad position. we're in a losing position here. especially given the fact that the political sentiment, the political wind in the u.s. seems to be get out, get out, get out at all costs, cut your losses you can't win so give up and go home. keep forces there, target terrorists et cetera, et cetera but don't make this mistake and you can see the president is in an extremely difficult position but it doesn't seem to be that the criticism of afghanistan is motivated by what's best for the national security policies of the united states it seems to be the democrats concerned about their position and the republicans are concerned about their position and there seems not to be the kind of working together and consensus between the left and right that the problem of afghanistan really requires. >> rose: lara, thank you very much. great to have you here. >> thanks, charlie. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: joining me now on the telephone from cairo is mounir abdel-nour of the wafd party, one of egypt's strongest opposition groups and he has been in talks with the government. i am pleased to have him on this program as it is very late in cairo. thank you, sir. >> you're most welcome. >> rose: twr do the talks stand? >> well, right now i'm afraid... i think that we have a deadlock the demonstrators would not lower the level of their demands they're demanding immediate departure of president mubarak. they want the parliament to be resolved. they want a new constitution to be issued. all this at the same time. obviously it's extremely difficult. on the other hand, the government that not onces to make any more concessions. it promised some amendments in three or four articles of the written constitution. and it promises to make some more steps towards the democratty sags of the system. but unfortunately the confidence problem the government has been making a lot of promises lately and it did not keep any of those promises. >> rose: promises made since the protests began? >> well, you know, there is so much that could be taken, especially the young egyptians full of hope, full of ambition, want to change the course of their country empowered by the internet, by their twitter and the french book. they have decided to go to the streets to demonstrate and they have shaken the country and they've been able to adopt this in less than ten years much, much more. in fact, what all political parties have been able to achieve in more than 25 years. >> rose: so you must be admiring of them? >> absolutely. very much so, admiring them, supporting them but trying to put some reason in their demands trying to explain to them that we have to remain within the constitution legitimacy and to restore law and order while achieving order. >> rose: up what what would be your solution? >> our solution is to have an immediate amendment of five articles of the egyptian constitution. according to our constitution, to make those amendments it has to be proposed by the presence of the republic or one-third of the parliament but it's difficult to get one-third of the parliament presenting this proposal so it has to be presented by the president of the republic. once this is done and the process of amending the constitution is starting, i think one of the possible proposals is that we ask the president of the republic to seat his powers to the vice president of the... vice president has been named. general omar suleiman who is known in the u.s.a. and is known in most of the neighboring countries. >> rose: right. >> and this is a big assurance to have a responsible man like general suleiman in charge for the rest of president mubarak's mandates. i think this could satisfy the demonstrators. i think it gives an opportunity for president mubarak to, you know, he has problems maybe to get the necessary treatments and so on. >> rose: one of the ideas i have that heard today is that president mubarak may go to germany for treatment. that might be one opportunity to move forward. >> sure. sure. i mean, this is exactly the solution we're proposing. if this happens i think we are out of the deadlock. i am sure the demonstrators will accept the solution. i mean that he creeds his powers rather than present his... resign... rather than resigning. we can reach some kind of a compromise of that sort. >> rose: and what role for the muslim brotherhood? >> you know, i think the power of the muslim brotherhood is, in my mind, overstated. and the demonstrations in the tahrir square where everything started and when everything, in fact, continued, they do not represent a real power. according to our estimation in tahrir square they do not represent more than 15% to 20%. we think-- in fact, we're confident-- that if the general climate is liberalized i think thement will have much less power than one thinks and less power than they have today. >> rose: those people who raised the fear of what happens in iranian revolution you would reject and you would say that egypt is different and that it cannot happen to us. >> i didn't want is not iran in many, many ways. first of all, egypt is a sunni country and not a shi'a one. number two, the geographical position, the geographical situation of egypt makes it open open on the mediterranean sea, open on the western culture, much more than the isolated iran. thirdly, as opposed to iran, egypt has a christian minority which is the biggest christian minority in the middle east of approximately ten million people and if it's... it's extremely difficult to impose sharia law on this minority. finally, egypt has a long tradition that is more than 200 years old and i don't think you can uproot this traditionallyly. >> rose: what is your biggest hope and what is your worst fear? >> my biggest hope is to have egypt becoming democratic, secular equitable and modern country ruled by law and a modern constitution before the end of 2011. my fear is... my fear is foreign intervention. and unfortunately my fear is that this deadlock remains for a longer period and economical costs of the deadlock would be huge. >> rose: thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you this evening and i look forward to seeing you in cairo. >> rose: thank you, mr. rose. >> rose: joining me now on the telephone from cairo is mohamed abd el-illah, he is an assistant secretary-general and media secretary of if newly reorganized national democratic party. last week, the ruling party's leadership resigned in the aftermath of protests. i'm pleased to have him on this program this evening. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: tell me where you see things at this moment in terms of the demands of the people who have been protesting and what the administration, the vice president and others will prepared to compromise on. >> first of all, i want to tell you definitely it was a turning point in the political life of egypt. the young protestors made some demands which will change the course of events in egypt and will increase and foster the democratic process. this is something we'd all like to be a part of and i think it's not a matter of compromise it's a matter of what's feasible accord to the constitution and what is the common denominator of all the dialogue with several forces of the opposition party, the n.t.p., some of the civil society and also some imminent people in a constitutional low and public figures. and so i think that definitely you cannot respond to all of the demands that the majority and the urgent part of the demands definitely. we all agree upon. >> rose: what is an acceptable role for president mubarak for you or for people whose view you share? >> president mubarak is leaving the transition to us and we cannot now... he's not the man who will leave the boat while it starts sinking otherwise we have the risk of a chaotic situation. because everybody's asking find the business to choose the president of the republic. and so in this case you have a situation where either you do it in a democratic way and respect the constitutionor you cannot because it is a president who submits to the parliament they... you know, the reform of the constitution then it was a referendum. this is the constitution. so we need the president to assure that things have brought a government to this constitution. so otherwise we're going in a vicious circle. if the president leaves today you will have the president of the house taking over from the next 60 days and call for a provincial election which will be run according to law 7 6-which is objective by all the political parties and also by a majority in the n.t.p. so you have to do the process. >> rose: so those people from a variety of places, whether it's in part the vice president, in part what we understand to be the wishes of other governments and egyptians have made all of us admire them because they have said this is for egypt to decide and not for any other country or any other organization and all of us respect that. >> and this idea is for egypt to decide. >> rose: having said that it seems to me the argument they're putting forward is that the president will step aside from most of the power of the presidency and mr. suleiman, the vice president, will then run the country until the elections are had and there will be a council that might be appointed. is that the operative idea on the table? >> look, the president is that he's the president, he has the right to put the vice president in in charge of ruling a lot of all the issues except amending the constitution, fighting the government, dissolving the house of representatives. this cannot be delegated according to the constitution. so this is why president mubarak his presence, is a stanlt for this position. so what's now on the agenda is to have some articles related to the position and the mandate of the president limited to mandate and reform the law to give... and the system of election we're going to move from the individual elections to the party list or not. so according to this, this is the first step and you must have a new president running for election within the new framework of the constitution and then after that he can ask the amendments for articles. but if we open a debate to have a new constitution totally you need at least two years of debate. >> rose: are you convinced there will be chaos with mubarak, the president, stepped aside? >> definitely, yes. >> rose: who is the chairman of the party today? >> the chairman remains the president because this is the status of the party which should be amendmented but in general we can add hit in the constitution that once the president of any party because nobody can predict who will be elected, the president comes over... he remains a president of the party but not the chairman. >> rose: today we discovered that wael ghonim, the google executive, had been released and a lot of people were asking how could this man have been held this long without anybody knowing his whereabouts? >> yeah, but when wuf... when we felt about it and i think when this to the vice president he has not only been to these but he has been deceived by the minister of interior himself and had a discussion with him telling him that these kinds of things will not happen again. this is also a change in the mentality. the mentality is changing. but you will not have a total change overnight. but the trend is changing. the trend is for in favor of more... of total freedom of expression. >> rose: is part of you as an egyptian, when you look at who was in the square-- lawyers and a range of people from a variety of backgrounds and experiences wanting to see a new egypt. did you take pride in them? did it make you feel this is a good thing that's happened to egypt? >> sure. you are talking to somebody who lived in the west for nine years of his life. and who an been part of academia and who believes in the freedom of opinion and expression totally and who is respecting the party itself. who is very well known for his defense of human life. we were representing a kind of wing which was within the party the opening eight years. >> rose: mohamed abd el-illah, thank you very much for joining us on the program this evening for new york and staying up late in cairo to share in the conversation. >> welcome, sir, and i am happy to have this opportunity to let our friends the united states hear a balanced view. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org