>> rose: welcomeo thprogra we begin this evening withhe historian garry wills and his memoir entitled "outside looking in." well >> well, i was a bookworm from the beginning. my father said "you read too much and you're not going to be a part of anything." and in a way that was true. but in another way the books opened up worlds for me that were profitable and fun. >> rose: he once paid you not to read a look for a week. >> yeah, right. >> rose: and then you took the moy and bought a book. bot my mother and my father had no books in the house and couldn't understand why was such a bookwm. my motr even... didn't graduate from high school. so she went to the doctor and said "isn't it unhealthy for his eyes that hereads all th time?" anthe doctor said "no it's unhell thoi walk." >> rose: (laughs) we concle this evening with ron chernow,he historian who's written a biography of george washington called "waington a life." i discovered that washiton under the sface was a ssionate sensitive complex man. he was a man ofany moods and fieropinions. he was really a fierce ha-driving perfeionist but it was all cloaked und this tremendous rerve andhat ver kind of stoi ala connick aura that we know. but there was a hard driving personality under that facade. >> rose: conversations with historians when we connue. captioning sponsored b se communications fromur sdios in new york city, this is charlie se. >> rose: garry wills is here he a litz prize wiing author and a prossor of history emerus at northwestern university. his books include "what jesus meant" his latest is called "outside looking in adventures of an observer. it's a collection of stories and eck dotes from his life and career. i pleed to have gary wills back at this table. welcome. >> good to be here. >> rose: let me start with the title. "outside loong in. meaning you think of yrself as an outsider?" >> yeah, i didn't join the staffs of magazines or the political staffs and when i know i was writing fo "esquire" various writers said "you have to move to new york or washington if you want to be in the flux of things and harold yes id "don'want youut in the midwe. don't want you to be a new york know it all. >> rose: a southerner who was editor ofest wire. >> yes. d head that same attitude. what w fun abt him was that he was so... not naive but almostinnont. he led new york as an osider and he wanted know stay an outser and temperamently that fit me fine. >> rose: i've always been intrigued by harold hayes together with willie morris as two southerners who came here and d remarkable succs as editors and a collector literary talt. >>ight. and he sen us off...oth sent us offon strange adntures you know he? william rris sen people to the middle east and harold yes sent me to jack ruby's strip club. (laughs) >> rose: that's right. outsider because you've always felt of yourself as someone who what? >> well, was a bookworm from the beginning. my father always said "you read too much and you're not going to be a part of anything." and in a way that was true but in another way the books oped uporld for me that were profitle and fun. >> re: h once paidou not to read a book for a week. >> yeah. right. >> rose: and then you went and took the money and bought a ok. >> bh my mother and my fathe d noooksn the hous and couldn't understand why i was such a boworm. my mother even... didn't graduate from high school so she went to the doctor and said "isn't itnhealthy for hyes thate rds a the time?" his t doctor said "no it's unhell thoi walk because..." (lghs) >> rose: (laughs) where did youet the books? go to the libry? >> yeah, absolutely. and we had one of t caegie liaries, those grea old institutions. and i went there d i was able to get books and i was able to get records. you could take all old 78 records. that's how i listened to my first operas afteristening to the saturday afternoon opera on... of the met. so yeah, the library was t... secondnly to my school which wa also wderf. i had dominican nuns who encouraged me in every possibly way and said "you should b a writer." even at a very early age. so i saluted and said "okay." >> rose: so if i was writing about you, sort a paragraph that would be the beginning... obituary let's say. i would say garry willsrite. >> teacher. >> rose: teacher. catholic. >> definitely. >> rose: what else? >> css ct. ros css cyst. meaning that you drew strength and principles from... >> i studied ancient greek an latin and taught it and think that that had a lot to do with my tastes my sense of rm and straint. >> ros eveto theoint of recommending that it's a great idea to learn greek as a second language. >> oh, absutel sure. it'she gates intellectua investment you can mak because no matter if you interested in polics or htoryr oratory or drama or poetry everybody's going to refer you back to the rst formuleors ofthosenre in rculture. if you' reading milton they're going toay... eryby talks about his depdence on hom. well, it helpsto beble to back to hom. ros so tell five books that influenced you mt. >> the new testament. the confession of saint augustine. >> rose: tt's always been there. >> yeah. andohnson's a eat hero of mine. let's see. what would be the fourth... perhapsevelyn waugh's "sword of honor." that's my favorite modern novel. and then "war and peace" is my favorite older novel. >> rose: if you looked at politians u've written abo ncolwoulbe numberne? >> washington. >> rose: would he? washington. who you've comparedo... >> well, washington was the indispensable man and he was first in war and first in peace. without him we mig not ve won e revolution. without him the setting of of the government couldn't have taken place in anythinlike the form tt it did. he waso restraine and balanced and cae at there's no comparing him to anybody else. lincoln was great. you know, if lincoln had died at ag50 we wouldn't hear about him. he was a late bloomer. >> rose: like churchill. >> yeah. he was rehabilitate bloer. whereas washington took off from theeginning. you we inta rooith waington and nody paid an attention to anybody else. >> rose: was that ught of his ight and his arin >> it was that his commanding staturand his restraint. just baked >>. >> he never went back to his plantation. otr officers would go off during the winter quarters and somewhere else, he never did because he knew if he went. he had to hold the whole thing together and he did. >> rose: now, were you interested in ulysses s. grant or william sherman rert e. e or stone wall jackson? >> sure sure. i was interested in them but not on the sameevel as wasngto orincoln. i'm... all my family is from the south and they adored lee. so i was interested in lee from fair eay on and i read douglas freeman's sff. but for e top rlg it's washingtnd a lincoln. then f.d.r. >> rose: becse? again because h tooks through terrific crises the depressi and the war. as i thinkno oneelse could have do. >> rose: take me to modern times. richard nixon. >> well, modern presidents are interesting because i can't praise or condemn them simply. each had strength and weaknesses and nixon had a lot of strengths. he was very smart he was very well read, he was of course great for the opening to china. he was great for... he was actually great in domestic affairs in many ways. he was much better on civil rights than peopleremember. mainly becausee had a priest writing all of his stuff who was a civil rights man father john cronin. he was very good on the arts. he was very good on the family. ook a lotf moyhan' vice. >> i've had a conrsation with pat moynihan about richard nixon. >> wel on the other hand, of course hwasnly dictionally spicus sing on everybody. >> rose: insecure >> absolutely. he was... and you ow h never beme a fulluman beg. and so i always felt that i pitied h mor than i admired him or condemnedim. and, in fact when oliver stone was making his movie "nixon," he asked anthony hopkins to play nixon and hopkins said "i'll a welshman, i can't participate in an attack on an american president." and he said "it's not going to be an attack. it's goingo sa that was strong but weak. insecure. and it will be the picture that niece gary lls' bk." so he asked hopkins to read it then he asked me to come to the set and talk to hopkins about it. so my picture of nixon went into stone's picture of nix. >> re: wch w briiant. >> i thought so. >> rose: i mean i thought hopkins' portrayal was brilliant. >> the thing about hopkins is he's a wderful mimic. he did'll go gud for me. he did o leave yay for me. gielgud. he sd i'm not goingo imitate his voice. they tried to put a fake nose on him, he said no. they tried to fix his hairand he id no. he said the onlyhing i'm going to openly imitate is his walk because there's akind of defeedne in his lk. so he did that. but otherwise he didn't do an impressi, he gotinto his soul. heeall did >> rose: did you see rostixon >> n >> rose: because of no interest oro time? >> saw clips and i thought it was a caricature. i thought both of them were or e top. so i didn't nt to seehe whole thing. >> ros but you saw the detes? >> o e origils sure sure. yeah. >> rose: there's also when you think about all these people, the people that were colleague likestuds turkel, agreat friend. what was it about studds? >> well studds is infectious, you know? you couldn't go away from him withouwanting to be better because he treated you as if you were better. and you didn't want to disappoint him. >> as if you were better than... >> better than we really are. that's the way he relyas. everybody he dealtwith heind ofut on a pedesl, no matter who they were. the ierviews thate published are mainly the answers to his question and the questions are peared down toust bare bones buti've heard the tapes and you get things like this he's talking to a woman in his book for workg. he wants woman who was a housewe ande sayshat's your life been like? and she said nothing i'm just a housewife. i'm not somebody like my daughter who has aareer. and he says "well your daughter has a career because youere a terrific mother. >> and fro then on she starts talking with a certain kind pre. and the maddest i'v ever seen... i went withim to see "five easy pieces," the movie whereack nicholson attac a waitss. and he got sourious that you would attack a working man. that... that was always his... and you couldn't not like studds if you were exposed to him. for instance working had fireman who ed a profanity and so it was banned as a book in a high school. and he wrote to them and said "i'd like to talk to the students." so he went to the stunts and he talked to em a he said "this man said that because his best friend... he was a fireman who had just lost his bt friendn a fire. and th only way he had to preshis feelings was with this word." and they all were so impressed that they phe book ba into the rriculum. >> re: they asked me once to come out to chicago and sit and talk to him for hoursnd just... not to interview him but just to talk about the craft of talking. >> ah! >> rose: and it was like o of the memorableays of my life to t the wi him at table and st talk aut how approached other man beings to have a conversation. >> it's amazinhowany peoe want to go to horhat. thlastear of hisife various people called me up and wanted to see him includi mos def, the raprtist,ho wanted to do intview shows himself and wanted to talk to studds about that anderohtlong his father who was a musician with the old folk singers who kn the peopl that sdds knew and nooepl bear, the producer of "law and order: special victims unit" wanted to talk to him about story telling. it's amazing how many people wanted tcome an talk. and at that point he was practically deaf. you had to sit there and shout at him but people still wanted to do it. >> ros he made plaid shirts popular, though, for sure. >> as long as they were red and white. >> rose: you saidwas a gift that. you said here itas aift that came from empathy, curiosity and a willingness to listen. >> absolutely. he said "put on my cursity "curiosity did not... put on my tombstone "curiosity did not kill this cat." >> rose: (laughs) all of that resonates me. there's also about your wife natalie. >> yeah. >> rose: 50 years of marrge. >> that's right. ros what'smazi abo the story is how you met her. tell me ho you met her. >> i was reang on ailane and she was a stewardess at th me and she had read aboutbergs at sweet briar and she came over tome and said "you're too young to be reading that book. i was 23 but i looked younger because my whole familyis kind of baby faced. so wgotalking about opera and iaid "i'm goi t miss... we were stacked up abov laguardiand i said "m going to miss a party in conctic." she id "ere?" i said "sharon." she said "i go by there on my way home to wallingford so ll give you a ride." she did and we talked about opera and italyecause she's italian and we got there and i thout she would come in and she said... >> rose: you inviteder in? >> absolutely. >> rose: this was a bill buckley's house. >> that's righ i said "come inside." she said "i've got my uniform on. i'm t supposed to be giving you a ride. i was dumb i was right out of the seminary and i let her go off without getting her phone number. so the next day back in manhattan ialled eastern airline i said i want the name of a stewardess who was ight such and such. they saie don't do that. so i sat for a while and thought and i called back and i said don't give her my namer be... don't give me her numbe but i have. i left a bk in her car all rked up and i have to reew it and i have to get it backight away. if she finds itive her my number and have rall me. so they called her and sd "did you give a guy a ride and e sa eah." and he said "well he says there'a bo in your car." so s wen out and oked for itnd didn'tind itf cose. ancalled me up and said "did you ave book iny car?" and i said"no." she said "wdidou say so?" and i said "becausi want to see you again." e said "when?" i said "today." so her mother is... owned a dress shop. so she went to her mother's store. when she had got back that night e said "i met an interesting guy on the plane." and her mother said "are you going to see him again." and she said "no." her mother went "ha ha." so she went to the store got a dress and said "ha ha." and caught the train backnto manhtan. >> rose: and sheaid what to you after she met bill buckley? >> she was so smart. i said "you've got to meet ll." we wt saing th him. she was chard as evybod ways is with bill an she got off the boat and she said "he's great but beware of him." i said "how come?" d shsaid "he absorbs people." and i observed that ove d over and orin the nextfew yes. but e caug it ght away. an interesting thing is that the music teacher for the buckley children, the father had hired a young brillnt piist woman in 240e to teach all the ckley children music and she went there and sh did and whei was preparing a life of him after a ile i was hisesigted biographer, i went to see her theyll called h "o lady," she s in her 20s but they were kids. and i asked her what it was like and she said in some ways it was the most glorious time of my life and in some ways it was the most devastating. i said "how come?" she said "i got swept up into the buckley famy. their fun and games and enthusiasm and thi kind of contagious atmohere aund them. and i gave up my own future." and i wso struck by that. i wouldn't have used it in the book as i was planning to write it. i onlysed it after he die. but then i found a lot of people who thought that. >> ros roll tap this is bill bucey thme a it mes ts book because it precipitated a call fm garry to bill. here it i do y wish you were0? >> no. absolutely n. no. i would... i had apill which would reduce my age about 25 years i wouldn't take it. >> rose: why not? >> because i'm tired of life. >> rose: are you really? >> yeah. i really am. i'm utterly prepared tostop lingn. ere'no enticements to me that justi the awareness the retition the... my hours exercise. >> yeah, i was devastated when i saw that and got in touch with him. and priscilla his sister told me part why he was doing that... she said by this time he was so weak she had to help h get up andet across the room. and, of course i had known him when he wasreal young in fe and athletic. and when ailehe wod stand the hel a hang on the bk shrouds and steer the wheel with his foot and then come sweeping in the harbor and pele wld s "my god wh is this boat comg wn on us?" and he was so deft and fast. and then to see him saying that it was really dheartening. >> rose: it was because asou know he could don't the things he lov todo anymore. he couldn't sail. heouldn'tdit the "national revi" which was his great love affair. he could not play music ymore. couldn't danytng. >>eah. rose: hardly anything. he couldn' travel, he cldn't ke speeches andhat'hy he said? the end. ps the physical incapacity. and yet he died at his desk. >> ah. so suld we all. >> rose: yes s should we a. anyby about that story... you know things that the res of us don't know but you will not tell us what he said to you about his life. >> no,when i was going to write his biography i interviewed him and all of his relative and hi friends and enemies, people at yale and he was amazingly candid with me. and he was always that way. and people around him tried to protechim from being suicidely candid. so he told me things that i said i would not put in the book and i won't tl evenow. for instance he told me when he went into the c.i.a. they have taka pygra and he bt the polygraph. he told it a lie. it was about a member of hi mily and he was protecting that member of the family. and he told me what the lie was and i'v never told itonyon t my wife a i ner wil but i said "how did u get away with it?" and he said"apparently if you tell aie and think you he a right to it doesn't regisr. >> rose: think you he a right . so it's not sohow convincing yourself it's true... >> n he just felt i have a rit to tell this lie. >> rose: the's no physical reaction, guilt or anything that precipitatet is kind of... >>e beat the mhine. >> rose: finally obama. you were enormously supportive of his campaign in 2008 and his election. >> yup. >> rose: are you enormously supportive today? >>o, i'm enormously disappointed. i think his only directional ingrash united nations and placation has done him in. it worked... >> his omni? >> yeah. in all dections. it wked earlier on. as a black man with a stran history and strange namend a at he hado ingratiat himself with various people. th harvardaw review and chicago peoe and that apparently set a pattern so that when he came into oice he sa i'm ing to transcend the various divisions blue a red states and all that kd of stuff andi'm ing to talk forever and ever to rublicans. and wh he did that hemade it cleathey weren't goi to cooperatat a he went on and on and on especially on things like the hlth ce. so that whole horblesummer of twine with tse vious vicious town hall meetin wer therand all these signs calling him a fascist and a mmist and and the antihrist, all that happed because he would notome out and say "the only way we can cut costs is to have a public option. that's what i want that's what should suort, let's go for that." instead he said "i want to hear what congress has to say, i want to hear what the republicans have to say. i want to hear what baus has to say." you can't get anything done that way. so what he did was get a health ca plan with all kinds of crippling provisions which means it's going to cost more t le, than the previous establishment and his enemies are going to say "e wtold you, it's going cost more." and it is because he would not say the only way to bring down costs is the public option. >> rose:ut ty're i denia about th. evertimeomebody fr the administration comes here or even speaker pelosi. >> sure. >> rose: dicit neual. >> they al sa look at what he's done. well he's done it by letting the finaial fairs, by tting all kind of provisions be given to the... to wall street. so so he's setting himself up for all these aacks by crippling himself ahead of time. >> rose: but you met with him you had dinner with him you were among the historians who met with him >> only once he said it was going to be a contiing thing but he never did it aga. >> ros did yo lk away from at impreed? >> i wasnoture. he had nine htorians who've written abou presidents. this imay i guess afte.. >>rose: you doris kearn goodwin, robert dallek and others. >> yes and he asked us for advice and sever of us said "don't go back to afghantan. it will be your vietnam." and he said "oh i'm not naive i know the difficulties, i'll take care of that. but he didn't. and now it is going to be his vietnam. we're never getti out of there the nato people are now saying 2014. he put in david petraeus who's going to be unrlacele. and is not going to stop he got snookered by the mility as h didby e wall street people. is veryisappointi to me >> rose: he seemso me i'v not intviewed him in the presidency. he seems t me someone who i premy...ho is bot bitis, actil pragtic and intellectlly aogant abt what he kwsohe know he is knows yrargument about afghanistan... >> wel put. that's exactlyhat his reaion was. "inow all th objtions,you don't toelle anore. >> rose:heook is called "outside loong in, adventures of an observeer. garry wills. great to see you. >> oh it's wonderful. >>ose: ron chernow is here, he is an award winning biographer. his books include "alexander hamilton and tie on the" and "the life of john d. rockefeller." the "new york times" has called him as elegant an architect of monumental history as we have enn decades. his new book "washington: a life" is a detailed and vivid portrait of america's first president. it follows georgewashington's rise from a younger? the british terpl the man who became the father of our couny. m ve pleasedo have him back at this tle. weome. >> aleasure charlie, thank you. how many bgraphys are there? >> since washington died there have been 900 biographies so you woerg why i'm perpetrating number9012 they started appearing within months of his death and infact the cherry spr story the most notoriou invtion started veryoon te hisdeat has had amazi longevity. >> rose: sowhy did you tur washington after what you had done? >> i thinkhe srting int of any biogphy is at ere have en significant events of that have eluded previous biographers him on t has a quarrel with washington late in the revolutionary war and he sat down and wro a letter to his faerpl defending his decision. and he painted washington as a moy, irritle and temperament man. he writes "the general and i have come to an open rupture. he shall for once repent of his ill humor." and i rememb being stunned. george washington ill-humored in? >> re: h shall repent. >> this doesn't conform to the saintly image i had of george washington. and it got me wonderg and thinki that perhaps this most familiar figurin history was unfamiliar. >> rose: what dowe know that makes the unfamiliar familiar? >> i spent six ars doing this ok. i discovered th washinon der eurface was a passionateensitive mple man hefs rlly fierce hard-driving perfectionist but was cloaked under this pretremendous reservand this stoic a connick aurathat we ow. but there was a vy fice hard drivg persolitynderhat cade cou you mak this case with ea? withougeorge washington the revolution would have faild? >> yeah. an earlier biogrher used the phrasethe indispensable man." and what youfind during the relutionary war eight and a half years he's the commander in chief of the continental army. there probably were generalsho from a strategic standpoint were superior. but while the other generals are jockeying for power and getting sidetracked in petty disputes george washington has whatever he does. a clarity of vision there's a tenacity of purpose and there's a force of chacter. there's nobody in the world whom you would ther gave monumental task to thaneorge washgton. >> re: how did he come to those skills? >> he had tremendous experience. we tend to associate him with the revolutionary war. george washington turns out to have bn a prodigy. whene was 23year old he was already in charge of all the armed forces in virginia and rginia was then e most popuus a perful state. at 23? >> at 23. he was a winder kind. he was inhe virginia house of burgesss for more than 20 years. winder kind. he's runni an immense plantation at mount vernon not only with 300 slaves but i scoved it's kind of a small industrial village. he has a commeial grimill he has a bigfishery business on epotomac. he'sven running one of the rges stillerys inthe couny notwithstaing his ersi to alcohol. >> he was the logical choice? yes and he was elected unanimous by the continental congress as mmander-in-chief. and he was one of the few people who had significant military experience even though he was then in his 40s and this experience was when he was back in his 20s. but remember charlie, what's happening is that th revolution has started up in massachusetts, lexingn and conrd. there e thousands of militiamen who have gathered on the common up in cambridge. but they're allew england militiamen. so in order to give this cause a continental perspective evyone imdiately los to the south because tn it uld give it a national character. and there's something about washington throughout his life that people are confident in entrusting power to him. he insres confidee. he's lev headed. he's not someone who bomes drunk with power. analso he is sebod who understands that mitary power has to be subordinated to civilian pow and he es this brilantly through th voluonarwar. member, he has 14 masters. thpoor guy haso dealith 13 state governo andhis eternally squabbling continental congress so washington's genius during the war is more political genius. he wasot a gre general i diovered. >> rose: he was not grea general? >> he wamidd. he probay lo mor battl than he won. there were a few major battles he bungled either through faulty in lligence opoor strategy. but i think this is that rare case in history of a general who what he did between battles was more important probably than what he did... >> rose: what did he do between battles? >> okay. for ght d a lf years he' running an army that's chronically short of men money clothing shoes blankets gun powder. there are one-year enlistments. every december the army is under disillusn an then he has to recreate in the january. so holding this ragged band of men together for eight and a half years, he had to haveeen very very strong leader and also a ry very inspirational presence. you have to underand this is not the story of a generalho is standing on the hill watching battles fold in the plains. is w a geral who always was flight the thick of battle th theullets wizin around you. >> rose: who were his friends and... >> that's an excelle question. washington was somebody who was naturally mistrustful. he had to know you for a long time and he would gradually lower ebarriers. so washington didn't ve a lot of frids in the contemporary see of kind of conventional relationships and heart to heart conversations yet he forms very very powerful friendships and alliances with some of the other founders. madison was certainly an early tutor and advisor on the u.s. constitution, doesn't get y better than that and ham ill twhon is aide-de-camp and effectively chief of staff of the war is not only gives him wenham ill on the's treasury secretary, a brilliant theorist and constitutional scholar but gives him one the great programmatic minds in history. they discover that washington always keeps a certain distance between mseland ople. power vy isolati and he was always ready if necessary to distance himself. rose: wha was in his character that made him famously not want to be president for more than two terms and not earlier want to be king? >> well, you know it's an interestinstory because he starts out as a young man who who really wants money status and power. but then hegets mor fame and power than any man being can possibly dream o people d't realize charl during t revolutionar war he's ay for eight and a lf yearhe onlyoes bk toount vernon once fo three days in eight and a half years. at the end of the war he feels like he has sacrificed the prime of his life to this war. he goes back to mount vernon praying for a little piece of privacy and tranquility. then what happens because of his stature, because people feel so comfort in entrusting power to him, he's first pulled out and becomes the president of the constituonal convention. he does it very reluctantly. he very reluctantly becomes the first present. the ofce was literally his for the taking. in fact he was unanimously elected in the ledge but he does it and he says to his cse friends "i'm going to become president for a year or two establish the legitimacy of the new deral govement and then i'm going backo mount vernon. well, what happened was that after a year or two his binet sa "we'ren t middle o a isis, you can't go home. and then there w one crisis after another. aneight years passed. so iyouook at the last 25 yes of this man lelmost the entire peod i sacrificed to the service of his country. >> rose: and when h went back home after eight years? >> this is a fascining story because he was warned. soone said t himyou shld t aspecialppropriati from congre because you're gng to ha people descending onount rnon and no oner h gets home than heooks over the ridg and there are tourists and veran and curiosity seekers and washington is tsmpecbly polite man and so he feels obligated to feed and house every onwho comes to mount vernon. so very often there are 10 or 20 people sitting at table a lot of them complete strangers. the saddest line if washington's papers in the summer of 1785 he writes in h dry dined alone with mrs. washington today for the first time since i returned home from the war. he h beehome from the war for aear and a half. it was the first time he had had dinner alone. >> rose: unbelievable. unbelievable. so even in the privacy of mount vernon he becomes not only a prisonier of his ownelebrity he becomes like a piece of public property in a way he can't escape and doesn't know what to do. and he's cstantlycomplainin in his letters that a of these guestsho are showing up a... ey're drinking h wine they're eating his food. and it becomes a tremendous drain on his financ and he ma the mistake this pers had advised him t get aspecial appropriation from congressor penses ande saido on't need that. but it becomes a a major drain on his finances. >> rose: what was his relationship with jefferson? >> jefferson, that'sn many ways the most complicated because he hadremeous admirationfo jeffson's political and litery tants th as you know the two-party system emees fm this feud betwn washington's first secretarof stat thomas jefferson and his first secretary of the treasury alexander hamilton. jefferson is very disturbed by the growth of federal power and presidential power. he's very disturbed by this literal interpretation of the constitution and jefferson begins to help secretly orchestrate a tax on the administration. as the 1790s went by washington becomes increasingly disenchantednd cynical about jefferson. theye rely not on speaking terms during washington's final years and mostmazingly, if you want to gea sense of how hostile george washington ended upafte heied thoma jefferson viss mount rnon. martha washington makes a statement to friends that the second worst day of her life was the y that thomas jeffeon visited mount vernon. the worst day of her life having been the day that her husband ed. w, powerful statemen and then she says to friends that thomas jefferson was among the mos detestable of all mankind an maha whington was not partular political. >> rose: why did she ey? shefelt jefferson had betrayed adouble-crossed h husband. >> rose: thaa true portrait of jeerso that that was part of eature of the man? >> well, jefferson wrote a letter to an italian friend that ended up accidentally getting published in the newspapers where this friend who had visited the united states, he says to the italian friend "you would be amazed at the heresys that have sprung up among us. those who were sam sonn t field and soloman's in the council have had their heads shorn by the harlot england. washington was pro british and jefferson was pro french. very, very rongangue. jefferson never dreamtthis lett whi clearly referd to washington that would be puishe martha washington when shmade the statement said we have the proof in the house. and i think she had a copy thatetter. >> rose: wt was her influence on grge wasngto >> i think it was immense. i didn't get the feeling this was a particularly torrid or lusty marriage, but it ripened to a very deep friendship. okay, he marries her she's a widow, very wealthy widow. it gives washington financial security whi then alls hi tollo what he do. washington w aeser and aloof man marth becomes his coidant which was very important. al washington was aood huan a certa kind o cordial an detached nature. she s a very skillful host she made sure everyone was being attended to and felt comfortable. in a thousand one ways she takes this ambitious young man whose life is rootless in certain ways and suddenly becomes very seled when martha becomes on the scene. as so often happens in a successful marriage it really sets up the success of both of the parties. >> rose had a difficult relaonship withis ther >> to pu i mildly. his father dies at 11. she was a very self-centered woman who always felt that georgeas nlectg her. we have no statements of her taking pride or pleasure in his success. no evidencthathe attende the wedding gegend martha washington. she lid in frericburg. never visited them a mount vernon. anlate in the revolutiory war washington receivesa letter at ss "dear gener ere' en somethi happeningn the stat capitol in richmonthat i think yoshould knoabout. your mother has appeed andhe has applied forspecl ergency reliefclaiming s crushed byaxes pleading poverty and intimating h son the commander-in-chief has neglected her. washington was mortified because he was a very very dutyful son and had been very generous financially with his mother. >> rose: the psychological thing, you're telling me that was the linchpin for you. this understanding that hamilton suggested a character that was not quite the character we know. that was a personality that was more. moody? >> yh, younow onofhe reasoni wrote th book is that some americans have image of george washington as worthy but a bland or boring character. that he was an empty st or mae th uniform uld be e better... >> rose: because everybody else around him was so interesting whether it was jefferson or hamilton or ams. >> those people if they walked into the room rig now if hamion walked into the roome would know in a minute two we were in the company of genius. whereas if wasngton walked into t room, he didn't spark the company. but you know open the book with gilbert swart painting washington not only because gilbert stewart and i are essentially in the same business of trying to portray thi enigm t ev gilbe stert made the statement that he saw anotr pernality inside george wnghiton hiding behind the stoical facade. >> rose: and what was that? >> well he says that if washington had been born in the forest he would have been the fiercest among the savage tribes. and then i have a whole series of quotes of jefferson saying that washington was naturally high toned. i quote vern mris saying that george washington had boiling in his bosom passions almost too mighty fo man. this has gotten lost in posterity. i really feel the people o knew him well and worked him well felt this tremendous force of personali. people felt. were a little bit frightened of washington. they have tremendous respect but he kp people a little off balance vying for his favor. this is not a kind of soft shoe character at all. this is a force of nature and somehow en iegan seehat sudden this man who defeats the british eire, whoresides over the constitutional conventi and who rge it i office of the presidey sudden that beco much more comprehensible to . >>ose: did heave anyind of retionship with benect nold? >> yes, in fact you know nedict arnold was not only very courageous before the famous treasury benedict arnold had been wounded tce in the leg, walked with a limp. benedict arnolwas a man with a very touch yee g sentedhat other peopleave been promoted over him. and washington has been wonderful in terms of standing up for benedict arnold and i don't think that there was anything that happened during the war that shocked him more than arnd's treachery. he was absolutely from the way that hamilton described his reaction whington's shock could not have been more complete. >> rose: it's hard to ask a estion about washingto without asking about the teeth. >> the teeth turned out to be very, very important for all sorts of reasons. they wer't wooden let'sry tire othat. they were made of elephant and walrus ivory. they had real teeth inserd into tm. we know in784 heboug nine teeth from sves possibrom s ownlaves. this sounds ghoulish but it was actually common practice at the time to buy teeth. but the dentures were important fothis reason, chaie. okay, beces president. he just has this one very low left bicuspid. th upper an low erden which you ares are anchored on this e toh. when i examinedis dentures at the new yorkcademy of medicine library i noticed in the back the upper and low erden which you ares aonneed by curved metal springs. the only wayhatthey stayedn his mouth what was that he had to keep his mouth firmly presd sh. wh ts met was thatvery time he ened h mouth and startetalkg it relaxed the pressu on the spng and there was a possibilityhat the dentures would suddenly come shooting out of his mouth. it may not be coincidental that tion of the speeches that george washington gave as president were one two or three paragraphs long. he was intenselyself-conscious. we have a lot of correspondence between him and two dentists. one during the war and one during the presidency and he never uses the word dental or teeth. he'll write if he's received the ntur he'll write to s deist in nework and say the items that you sent me arrived safely. he was intensely self-conscious about that problem. it mt have been very very painful. >> rose: and this photograph comes from where? >> very interesting. th was a int big rembrandt peel who knew washington. my editor said we have to have a piure washington on a white horse. why? because i ma much the book of how magnificent he looked on a whe hoe. he was areat showman. he had a gre sense of litical theater and when he would travel between tns did so by coach t when he w on the outskirts of town he would always bring along one or two wteparade horses and he got on because he knehat that'sow people ntedto s m. that genal george washington the heron a white horse. he knew what he sbout. >> rose: cssing the delaware was his finest mont. it waone of them. iteserves all of the mythologizing because the army was really about to disintegrate and american morale was at a low ebb after a series of terrible disasters defeatsin n york and new jersey and so washington really needed something to not only rally his men but to rally opinion because people were beginning to despair. the british had sent over the largest expeditionary for of the 18th century in order to really intimidate th colonists intoubmission so itas really a brilliantut rather desperate maneuver by washington to show that he d theause we still ale and thenhe follows it up with brillian victory at princeton. and, again, he... >> rose:o there were brilliant victorys? >> the were brilliant victors but then also you know, the war shiftso the uth and he's in the north and so there's kindf a long period where he's a spectator of whas goinon wreprobly his prege nathaniel green and lafayette are more important in the... butyes,e did have his... >> ro:other than washingn who was the grt estrogen of the revolutionary war? >> i think dinitely nathaniel green. i don't think therwas anybody who from the political standpnt could have stepd into washiton's shoes but grn not only was a brilliant general but i think kind of like washington he had great judgment even political judgment. alass he died just a year or two after the revolutionary war. he was still young he was in his 40s at that point. but he certainly i think would have been a member of waington's cabinet. woulhave had a political career to match the mitary career >> re: did washington talk about slavely. >> very often he did. he was born into a world charlie, where slavery is both commplace and unquestioned. this man so transcends his origins that by the end of his life he freeshose 124laves under his personal legal control but you could see him wrestling with the slavery isss. certainly ringhe revolutionary war lafette was a psionatebolionist layette says to him afte the r "i would nev have lifted my sword in the cse of liberty if i thought in doingo i was ghti to found aount of slavery. hamilton was a -founder o the anti-slavery society of new york. and so washington is very influenced by these young men. the coinental arm probably was out 5% african american. very inspiring story. and then as the war progresses here washington who's a virginia planter is suddenly giving his approval to an all-black battalion from rhode island. so you see him growing. but with so many things with washington he doesn't always come out and say it. it's kind of what he does rather than what he says.greatness of george washington i tha he' capable of constant growth and capable of constant lf-critici. because this is somebody w starts out in many ways he's gauche and even crass at the beginning of h lif and he ends ua figu of almost indescribable wisdom and patience and rtite. it's an traoinar metamorpsis of thiman. >> rose:he died in what yea >> he died in 1799. he actually was among the early presidents, believe it or not one of the shorter lived. his next four or five successors all... except f onelived to 80. in the case of john adams i thk to90. but, y know eryone this in the 18 ctury everyone died young. but there s so much illness by the time washington is 30 he's already svived malia smallpox and dysentery so in the 18th century if you survived all of these epidemics. you hit the age of 50 u were probably off and running to 70 or 80. >> rose: any last words that were famous before he died? >> no. even on his deathbed he'sery stoical. he notices his young slave christopher shields has been standing all day and he says "i see y've been standing please t do you must be tired." his secretary tobias leer... he died of inflammation of the epiglottis so he felt he was both choking and suffocating. his sretary tobias lear got on to the bed with washington and rolled him over because it made breathing easier and he sayso tobsear "thank you for dng thi this is a debt that we perform each other and i hope wn you time com seone performs the debt for you." this is a man who's dying who cos up with this very beautiful and oque statement. but that kinof awareness of the pele around him tha sensitivity to the people around him was very characteristic of washington. agn, we have this image that he was this cold blood man of marble. not true. >> rose:reato have you here. >> it was a pleasur crlie ank u. >>ose:ashington, a life, ron chernow. ptioning sponsored by roseommunicaons ptioned by mea access gup at wgbh acss.wh.org