Transcripts For WETA PBS NewsHour 20100416

>> brown: and we talk of volcanoes present and past with simon winchester, author of a book on the spectacular 1883 eruption on the island of krakatoa. >> lehrer: judy wooduff finishes our spotlight city series with a story about the rise of the right in a florida primary contest. >> the politics of ang ser fueling the senate campaign here of conservative republican marco rubeio, who is leading a more moderate governor charlie crist. it's a drama playing out in g.o.p. races across the country. >> brown: and we get the analysis of mark shields and david brooks. >> lehrer: that's all ahead on tonight's newshour. major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> lehrer: the federal government accused goldman sachs today of fraud. the securities and exchange commission filed civil charges against the powerful wall street investment banking firm. the s.e.c. alleged goldman did not disclose it was marketing sub-prime mortgage securities while, at the same time, betting against them through a large hedge fund. investors in those securities lost more than $1 billion when the housing market crashed. in response, goldman called the charges "completely unfounded." it is the most prominent case brought by the government thus far in response to the financial crisis. zachary goldfarb is covering the story for "the washington post." zachary, welcome. >> thank you. >> lehrer: in the simplest of terms, what is it exactly that the government has said goldlman sachs did? >> the government has said goldlman sachs defraud its investors by omitting key details about investment products that goldman was selling them. in essence, the government has said that goldman allowed a fund that was betting against these products to create the products, and then sell the investment to investors without telling them that someone who is betting against them had come up with the idea. so it's an issue of defrauding investors. >> lehrer: and the allegation is that goldlman sachs created this kind of double bet situation, right? >> that's right. goldman has been accused and criticized for taking a stand against the housing market for itself and ony behalf of some clients while letting other client bet on the housing market. it tried to make a profit allegedly both ways. >> lehrer: they named one vice president of goldlman sachs as the main perpetrator, alleged perpetrator, correct? >> that's right. a goldman vice president now in london allegedly came up with the idea and knew weeks and months before creating the investment product that it was going to fail or that the entire housing market was going to start a significant decline. and the s.e.c. has obtained e-mails showing that or suggesting that. he has not issued a statement today defending himself, although, goldman has said the charges are untrue. >> lehrer: and they plan to fight them all the way, right, that's their statement? >> that's right. and that's quite unusual. most banks and entities dealing with the s.e.c. settle on the day the charges are filed. >> lehrer: the first time you hear about it is when they've settled, right? >> that's right. goldman, however, has been willing to go its own in many ways in financial crisis, and it's been immensely profitable for them to do so. it's another example of goldman pushing its own sort of approach to dealinging with public relations concerns. >> lehrer: now, there was a hedge fund that was involved in doing the betting on the downside, right? and john paulson-- run bay john paulson, a very prominent person in the hedge fund business on wall street? >> that's right. he made builds and billions of dollars personally by creating exotic techniques to bet against the housing market when everybody else was beting it would continue to rides. goldlman sachs helped him to do that. allegations on behalf of him they created the security that they then sold to investors who believed the housing market would continue to go up. and he benefited from this, although, the s.e.c. has clearly said today he didn't play a role in any kind of fraud leapt actions. so he thought-- he is not being charged or facing allegations of wrongdoing. it's goldlman sachs that is facing those allegations. >> lehrer: and the word there, of course, is that paulson saw the collapse coming and went with that bet on his own, and goldlman sachs just simply bought into that bet , correct, without tell telling people they were doing it? >> right. goldman was paid $15 to create this exotic financial instrument-- it's very complicated-- that paulson was able to use to bet against the mark. at the same time, they were promoting it as a positive thing to their investors without telling them paulson played a role in creating the product. that's the allegation. >> lehrer: why civil charges instead of criminal charges? >> the s.e.c. doesn't have criminal authority. that's the department of justice, and weent know if there's a department investigation. there may be one. the second reason ask perhaps more important is a civil case what a lower threshold for actions than in a criminal case and it's very hard to beyond a reasonable doubt prove financial fraud. it happens, of course, but it's very hard to do. if you want to bring a case as fast as possible and get financial remedys and other sanctions, you often go the civil route first, and there always can be a criminal case to follow. >> lehrer: so what specifically is the government asking as a penalty against goldlman sachs? >> they're asking for a few things. they're going to seek a financial penalty, a pure penalty, which is supposed to deter further conduct. they're going to seek that goldlman sachs repay any gains it had. that could include the $15 million paid in fees, but also perhaps -- >> $15-- >> $2 million in fees from paulson, but also possibly up to $1 billion in investor losses on the fraudulent security and this could be other kinds of gains we don't about. there could be a variety of sanctions against goldlman sachs limiting its ability to do business in this area if the court agrees with the s.e.c.. >> lehrer: did this come as a big surprise on wall street, that the s.e.c. was going to move against goldlman sachs. >> lehrer: people were surprised today. there's been a lo of discussion about goldlman sachs and other big banks. there was a big case with bank of america that was more known in public. people were surprised by the goldlman sachs case and i think there was surprise there were no settlements in the works. the s.e.c. is under a new team and trying to show the world post-madoff they can reform themselves. but really, the devil will be in the details as the court case unfolds and it cou be, actually, years and years before any kind of resolutions, which shows how difficult this is. this is dealing with conduct from early 2007, it's 2010 now, and the court case could be 2011 or 2012. four or five years between conduct and resolution and that shows how difficult it is to prosecute these kind of cases. >> lehrer: zach, thank you very much. >> brown: now, to the other news of the day. here's hari sreenivasan in our newsroom. >> sreenivasan: the goldman sachs news rattled wall street after two months of steady gains. the dow jones industrial average lost nearly 126 points to close at 11,018. the nasdaq fell 34 points to close at 2,481. for the week, the dow gained a fraction of a percent; the nasdaq rose a little over 1%. federal bank regulators came under fire today over the largest bank failure in u.s. history. it happened at a senate hearing on the 2008 collapse of washington mutual, commonly known as "wamu". democratic chairman carl levin of michigan lashed out at the office of thrift supervision. >> o.t.s. was a feeble regulator. instead of policing the economic assault, o.t.s. was more of a spectator on the sidelines, a watchdog with no bite. noting problems and making recommendations but not acting to correct the flaws and the failures that it saw. at times, it even acted like a guard dog. >> sreenivasan: the head of the office, john reich, denied he'd been too cozy with wamu managers. and sheila bair, chair of the federal deposit insurance corporation, said her agency did all it could. battle lines have hardened on a bill to reform financial regulation. president obama called again today for reining in "derivatives". they include the mortgage-backed securities that triggered the housing market collapse. the president said, "i will veto legislation that does not bring the derivatives market under control." the senate could take up the bill next week, but all 41 senate republicans announced today they will oppose it. nearly all u.s. hospitals will have to give same-sex couples greater rights on visitation and medical decisions. the president issued the order last night. it will end policies that sometimes bar gays and lesbians from visiting their ailing partners or consulting on treatment. all hospitals accepting medicare and medicaid patients are affected. senate republicans and democrats went at it today over a federal court nominee who's become a lightning rod. newshour congressional correspondent kwame holman has the story. >> holman: the focus at the senate judiciary committee hearing was goodwin liu, law professor at the university of california, berkeley. he's been nominated for the ninth circuit court of appeals in san francisco. republican orrin hatch of utah charged liu's writings show he'd reinterpret the constitution to suit his liberal views. >> it's one thing to be a law professor and make a lot of hypotheticals and other things. do you still stand by these approaches that you can make the law anything you want to? >> whatever i may have written in the books and articles would have no bearing on my role as a judge. >> holman: as the hearing went on, liu was pressed repeatedly to say he'd be impartial, if confirmed. >> as much as i like my own views, i confess to you that i would actually be a little afraid if i was the only voice speaking and that everything went my way. that is not the kind of certainty i have about my own views. >> holman: liu has sharply criticized conservative u.s. supreme court justices john roberts and samuel alito. but republican jeff sessions contrasted their experience, when nominated, with liu's. >> have you argued any cases before the supreme court or any cases before the federal courts of appeals? >> senator, i have not argued any cases before the u.s. supreme court. i have argued one case before the united states court of appeals for the d.c. circuit. >> holman: liu won support from committee chairman patrick leahy and other democrats. they accused republicans of being unfair. >> let's leave these straw men kind of complaints out of it. we have so many people sitting on our courts of appeals, nominated by republican presidents, supported by both republicans and democrats, who do not begin to have the kind of background that you do. >> holman: the hearing was considered a test for the larger fight to come, when the president nominates someone for the new vacancy on the supreme court. >> toyota announced a new recall. the auto maker said it will check 600,000 siena minivans for corrosion in a cable. the affected minivans are sold in the u.s. from 1998 to 2010 model years. for the record, toyota is an underwriter of the newshour. new information has surfaced on the destruction of cia videotapes that showed water- boarding. the 92 tapes involved terror suspect abu zubaydah. internal emails released last night said former cia director porter goss agreed with the 2005 decision to get rid of the tapes. they said the videos showed interrogators did not follow procedures authorized by the bush administration. the death toll from this week's earthquakes in western china climbed above 1,100 today. officials also said more than 400 villagers are still missing in the mountainous area near tibet. meanwhile, buddhist monks created a makeshift morgue next to a monastery in the shattered region. they chanted and prayed over the bodies of hundreds of victims. >> ( translated ): for us, the tibetan people, this is critically important. every tibetan here believes in buddhism, chanting scriptures and belief in salvation for the dead is very important. if there is no ritual for praying for the afterlife, tibetans would feel very guilty. >> sreenivasan: the monks planned a mass cremation of unclaimed bodies tomorrow. in afghanistan, the u.n. confirmed five of its afghan workers are missing in the north. police in baghlan province said they were kidnapped by taliban insurgents. four german soldiers were killed in that same area yesterday. in neighboring pakistan, a suicide bomber killed eight people at a hospital emergency room in the city of quetta. those are some of the day's main stories. i'll be back at the end of the program with a preview of what you'll find tonight on the newshour's web site. but for now, back to jeff. >> brown: still to come on the newshour: the republican fight for florida's senate seat; and shields and brooks. but first, the volcano spreading trouble around the world. ray suarez begins from london. >> suarez: the icelandic eruption is putting on a show, even out in space. satellite images show the vast spread of the dust and ash over the north atlantic and the skies of northern europe. heat from earth's engine, always running, is pumping a mix of material into the atmosphere, a violent push that started deep under iceland-- in a year full of them-- with an earthquake, setting off a chain of effects more than a thousand miles away. friday saw more than 17,000 flights cancelled, roughly two- thirds of the air traffic in european airspace on a normal friday, stranding hundreds of thousands in major gateway airports like london heathrow... thousands of miles away in delhi, india... and still further away, in singapore. the drifting ash and dust is aimed directly at commercial aviation's operating zone, moving east at an altitude of 20,000 to 36,000 feet in what's normally some of the world's most crowded airspace. the world's airlines are expecting to lose $200 million every day the airport closures continue. flights from london are cancelled at least through saturday morning. government meteorologist derrick ryall says his agency is taking regular looks at the vast volcanic cloud. >> what we really want to know is what the plume is actually doing, where is it now, and how high is it-- things like that. are in it. once you've got that sort of those observes and measurements they can help calibrate what they're doing. and then you can make a better assessment of the risks to aviation. >> suarez: closing the skies to travelers set the dominoes tumbling here on the ground. whether at the british ferry ports, or at the train station sending runs under the english channel to the continent, every seat on every departure was sold, and the next available ticket wasn't until tomorrow night. its a reminder, there are only so many ways off an island. but travelers we spoke to, suddenly faced with an unscheduled british vacation, kept their good humor, and so far, their patience. >> traveling with a group of 16 students, and has to see if >> suarez: bigger names than frederick, maria, and sven face travel woes. polish officials are worried the air traffic disruptions will stop or slow the progress of foreign dignitaries heading to the country for the funeral of president lech kaczynski. at university college, london, vulcanologist peter sammonds drills, smashes, and heats volcanic stone-- these samples are from mt. st. helen's in washington-- to understand what's going on deep in the earth. the drama of these latest eruptions is caused by iceland's unique mix of volcanoes and glacial ice. >> the most recent vent has formed under an ice cap, unusual otherwise, a pretty ordinary eruption. >> suarez: there's no way of knowing how long a swath of the northern hemisphere will have to contend with iceland's blowing off steam. >> this volcano has been going off since march, erupting at a fairly low level. it was only a couple of days ago that it erupted big time, up to 20, 30,000 feet. that's a lot of ash, and it caught the winds at high levels, and by chance at the moment the winds are carrying it straight across towards the u.k. >> suarez: and when will the cloud dissipate enough to lower the risk of catastrophic jet engine damage? >> that's an engineering judgment, what makes it necessary to shut down aircraft. >> suarez: but for the moment, nature is reminding humankind that plans and systems and schedules sometimes have to give way to a planet that runs on its own clock. and as britain was paying close attention to its first ever televised prime ministerial candidates debate, that striking cloud provided a political cartoonist with, as the title read, an obvious "hot air" metaphor too good to miss. iceland today; the indonesian island of krakatoa in 1883. we talk about nature's power and impact now with simon winchester, author of "krakatoa: the day the world exploded." so, mr. winchester, what you've called a tiny pin prick in the earth's core explodes and much of the world feels it. remind us what happened in 1883. >> well, it was much big ebut it was still relatively in planetary terms a pin prick. it was an island between jaffa and sumatra and the dutch west indys, now indonesian. it began to misbehave in may, 1883, and in august, 1883, the entire island in an absolutely titannic explosion vaporized. the whole thing went up in what is probably the biggest explosion known in the earth's recorded history. it was heard on the east coast of africa, 5,000 miles away with a stuningly loud bang. but this vaporization of the island threw an immense amount of dust-- i mean , trillions upon trillions tons of dust, which went very high, much higher than the eeruption from the islandic volcano, 40, 50, 60,000 feet and higher. it had effects all over the world, principally in those days-- nothing to do with commerce because, of course, there weren't any aircraft-- but it caused major -- the sunsets were stuningly beautiful and artists pickeded up their paint brushes and watercolor sets and started recording. >> brown: we have one of those. there is one from william ashkroft. so -- >> he is amazing. he saw this on the river thames and it was like a human sort of movie camera. every 10 minutes he would produce an image. and he produced i think there are 500 of them in the natural history museum in london, almost leek a time-lapse photography pictures. >> brown: i was fascinated to read that another even more famous , very famous painting, "the scream", you say there's research that suggests that that even though painted a few years later, is still connectedly to krakatoa. >> yes, i mean, you look at the amazing orange and purple swirls behind that haunting face. people say-- monk himself said it was painted in 1893, but he rememberedly time in 1883 in oslo many months after the eruption when the skies suddenly turned this extraordinarily lureid orange and purple color, something which once seen-- people like ashcroft and monk, and american artists like frederick church who painted beautifully many, many hudson river school paintings of the 1880s, dominated by the post-crack cota. >> brown: we just saw ray suarez's piece, and the news reports today were talking about disruption in airtraffic. we're talking about jet stream and air flows, and i gather that a lot of what we know or what we began to know about flows of air came from krakatoa. >> you're exactly right. people realized that these sunsets, these amazingly lureid colors, were spreading around the world nay pattern. first, krakatoa is in the east indys. they noticed it in northern austral and and then noticed it in san francisco, and in poughkeepsie , new york, where people thought there were amazing fires breaking out and fire brigadees were sent out. they decided to plot the progress of these correlations of the sky, and they found that the particles, which they anyhow were causing the coloration, were being swept around the world by what they called an equatorial. they changed the name from the ecitorial smoke screen to what we know as the jet stream. this is an irony, it is not, that the device bringing the smoke down from iceland northern europe today is the jet stream, the jet stream which was discovered as a benefit-- one of the many benefits of krakatoa. >> brown: it's a good irony. it won't help the people waiting for their planes but it's thering to note. the other thing i want to ask you about with the science is krakatoa also had important climate and health issues opinion as you-- from what you have learned about what we know about that, help us think about what we're seeing now that started-- the eruption that started in iceland. >> well, this is very important. i mean, the disruption of the air traffic is one thing but the lowering of the ambient temperature of the world. after krakatoa, it went back down worldwide by about half fahrenheit degree. it may not seem very much, but it is if you're on the-- if you're an iceberg on the verge of melting or freezing. after the tambora eruption, which was even bigger in 1815, there was snowfall in washington in july. crops were ternaly late all over the world. marry shelly, wrote, apparently, according to many people "frankenstein" because she was so bored with the awful weather--. >> brown: more great art coming from krakatoa, right? >> the weather impact is very important. it and it may be important today. it may temporarily reverse global warming. but only-- only temporarily. >> brown: and the health issues related from the ash? >> health issues are very serious. salarns ash, if it gets into your lungs, there's a disease miners who work in stone mines suffer from, you get a lot of this, particular he if you have asthma or something like that. it is quite dangerous. you have temperature, health problems, you've got commercial problems, you've got art, you've got science-- from one tiny fissure in the earth's surface. it's amazing what can happen. >> brown: same is the author of "krakatoa: the day the world exploded." thanks for joining us. >> thanks very much indeed. >> lehrer: now, we wrap up a week of reports from tampa, florida, where we went to spotlight what americans think the role of government should be. that debate generated a politics of anger that led to an unexpectedly competitive republican primary race for a u.s. senate seat. judy woodruff reports. >> reporter: on tax day all across the country, members of the tea party movement gathered to rally and protest, including here in downtown tampa. >> let's fight to take back our country! ( cheers and applause ) >> reporter: it's anger like this that has helped fuel the rise of an upstart young candidate for the senate in the fourth most populous state in the country, setting off a pitched battle inside the republican party. the son of cuban immigrants, 38- year-old marco rubio was not well known when he announced his candidacy last year. he had served in the florida state house, rising to speaker, but few thought he had a chance against the popular governor charlie crist. >> francine, give me a hug. >> reporter: out of the public eye, though, things looked different. with the primary open only to registered republicans, rubio spent months traveling around the state, getting to know local activists, who were impressed. ( cheers and applause ) so much so, he quickly became the darling of the right. >> the reason i'm running in this race is simple-- i know i'm the only candidate in this race that you can trust to go to washington to stand up to this agenda, and in its place, offer a clear alternative. >> reporter: and many republicans were already suspicious of crist and his occasional moves toward the political center on the environment and with court appointments. those gestures at moderation, which a year or so earlier might have appealed to florida's large bloc of independent voters, ended up backfiring inside the g.o.p. and this happened, as the political ground was shifting in washington, with partisanship growing more heated and president obama's policies more controversial. obama's economic stimulus plan was attacked by republicans as costly and ineffective, criticism that especially stuck here in florida, with its go-go economy hit hard by devastating job losses and home foreclosures. so, when crist not only announced support of the stimulus plan but briefly embraced the president on a visit to florida, it left him wide open for a charge that he was breaking faith with his party. >> the biggest thing was crist supporting the stimulus bill. he literally embraced that. and to me, that is going back on not supporting the republican party. if that's what he thinks will help the state of florida, he just needs to be a democrat. >> reporter: it's a charge crist has spent the past year trying to fend off, as he was last weekend at the sprawling villages retirement community in central florida. >> we're voting for you, but you cant stand with obama. >> he's the president of the united states. i don't agree with him on everything, but i do respect everybody. >> reporter: on a hotel patio the next day, crist told me he doesn't regret his actions. >> the fact that i greeted him when he came here and accepted the stimulus money, i don't think that's a bad thing. i think that's what america stands for-- that you should be decent to one another, regardless of party affiliation or other differences one might have with another human being. what's important is that you're willing to work with people for the benefit of the people of my state. that's what i did with the stimulus. it saved 20,000 teachers, their jobs, after all. >> reporter: retiree dan hamill is one of the few republicans we found who says he understands why crist did what he did. >> with all the other states getting the benefits, i think it would have been crazy for governor crist not to take some of the incentives. now, whether he should have hugged president obama is another issue. >> reporter: but marco rubio says the campaign is about more than the stimulus, that what's at stake is the future of the republican party. we talked on his campaign bus this week. >> the party has been most successful when its been the home of limited government, free enterprise and strong defense. what republicans are looking for is to send people to washington who will be consistent and reliable on these issues. what's hurt charlie crist is that he's unreliable on those issues, where one day he's on one side of the issue, and if the wind shifts, he shifts with it. >> reporter: rubio's conservative backers put it more bluntly. lake county commissioner jimmy conner. >> the conservatives are ready to kick the door down to get to the ballot box. we do not want to send the next arlen specter to washington, d.c., to represent the state of florida, and that's what you would get with charlie crist. >> reporter: many crist supporters, however, say they are sick of the gridlock in washington. >> you don't want to send someone to washington who won't be able to do business. he would stand with repbulicans if he thought it was right for florida. i want to get business done in washington, even if it means being willing to compromise and be friendly to the other side. >> reporter: crist describes himself as loyal to the principles of ronald reagan, but suggests that doesn't mean voting in lockstep with his party. >> i watch washington, like a lot of people across my state. they're frustrated with the rancor and bitterness and the bickering that people see. i don't think that's good for america. i think we need a dose of florida common sense in washington, and i can bring that there. >> reporter: just yesterday, crist sent an even stronger signal he's prepared to depart from republican orthodoxy, when he vetoed a bill passed by the republican-controlled state legislature to impose a merit pay system on florida's public school teachers. the veto defied former governor jeb bush, who led the push for the bill, and had prompted former senator connie mack to resign as chairman of the crist campaign. florida teachers, however, who had risen up in protest against the bill, were thrilled. some even promising to switch parties as a thank you to crist. >> i'd be willing to change my registration so i can vote in the primary. the teachers are not going to forget. we will remember in november. >> reporter: but political science professor susan mcmanus of the university of south florida told us before the veto it is unlikely enough teachers would switch parties to make a difference. >> for crist, senate bill 6 is probably the most difficult decision he will have to make as governor. many see his political future riding on what he does with that bill. that's a pretty monumental decision, and as a governor, he hasn't had to make a lot of tough decisions. this is clearly what many people say is a line in the sand kind of issue for him... for his ambitions politically. >> reporter: in fact, speculation is growing that crist may run as an independent, which polls show would improve crist's chances, in a three-way contest against rubio and the democratic party nominee, likely, congressman kendrick meek. with two weeks to decide, crist chooses his words carefully. what are the chances you could run as an independent? >> i have no intention of doing that. >> reporter: absolutely? >> i have no intention of doing that. >> reporter: no intention? >> no. >> reporter: meanwhile, the primary has quickly grown expensive-- more than $20 million raised so far-- and ugly. crist is targeting rubio's use of a g.o.p. credit card for personal use. >> rubio used republican political donations on his lavish lifestyle. >> then failed to properly disclose it. >> violating the law. >> marco rubio, how disappointing. >> i care deeply about my fellow floridians. and i don't want somebody to fool them. and i don't want them to entrust their vote to somebody who is saying one thing and did another. >> he has the right, i imagine, to smear me. i think its unbecoming, frankly. i never thought id see a republican say these things about another republican. >> reporter: with more than four months to go until the republican primary, florida voters are being treated to the sort of fight usually reserved for general elections. one analyst said the race is actually a referendum on president obama. former state senate president tom lee, a rubio supporter, told me the state that voted for obama a year and a half ago now wants something different. >> i feel like what we have gone through in america the last 18 months has redefined us as a people. they are more conservative today. i've been inspired with the speed at which this democracy is capable of self-correcting. >> reporter: crist supporter greg truax, however, says the governor has just started to campaign, and predicts he will pick up tea party support. >> the state budget is lower; we have tax cuts; crime is down; school rankings are up. we have tea party supporters because they are about smaller government and less spending. that's something charlie crist is about. >> reporter: and no one is watching with greater interest than members of the tea party movement, who see this as one of their first opportunities to determine who represents them in washington. >> lehrer: and to the analysis of shields and brooks-- syndicated columnist mark shields, "new york times" columnist david brooks. david, how do you explain what happened to charlie crist? >> partly, it's obama. obama's quite unpopular, especially in places like florida, especially among florida primary voters. the stimulus package is wildly unpopular, probably unfairly, it probably did some good whether you supported it or not and it's given no credit by people in the country. to me the big thing in the race is you have marco rubio. you know what he stands for. if there is going to be a debate in the republican party with mod rats debating conservatives, mod rats have to stand for something and i don't know what charlie crist stands for .veto of the veteran pay bill sympt myselfs that. here's a bill most republicans support, the idea of merit pay and ending tenure-- this is an issue on which barack obama has been very aggressive , going up to rhode island, talking to a school in rhode island where they were firing teachers-- this is something most reformers and independents support, giving the school districts the right to get rid of bad teachers and pay people depending on how kids do. this is an idea with substantive support behind it and political support, and charlie crist vetos this bill which to me should end consideration for mod ratss who-- why should they vote for him? a guy to the left of barack obama on a crucial education issue. to me, the central frustration is the conservatives have something to stand for. the problem with the republican party and the democratic party, too, is mod rats rarely can define a coherent philosophy and crist has not done that. if and you can't do that, you're probably going to lose. >> lehrer: mark? >> where to begin. >> lehrer: did you hear anything you agreeed with? >> yes, i did, i did. i heard david speak positively about the stimulus package. ( laughter ) it is a remarkable-- i mean , tom lee , the county chair, the former senate leader who said the change in the past 18 months-- it is. it is remarkable. two years ago we were sitting here and charlie crist had just been the king maker in florida. he had delivered florida john mccain. he was the coveted endorsement to rudy giuliani so coveted it, he didn't get it and has gone back to endorse rubio. he was -- he was serious consideration for vice president. and when he announced for the senate, the entire republican senate campaign committee, the republican establishment, backed him. why? because he's a winner. he's somebody who could win. and marco rubio is somebody who can win a primary. as we sit here tonight, the question on the education bill, there was an awful lot of editorial on the education bill in florida, it was too much of a concentration-- absolutely no consultation with school boards or any local. and it was concentrating all the power... whether that was the decision that grove charlie crist-- because even though people who agreeed with his veto questioned his motives, whether in fact he did it. so i think that there's one question, we've seen an enormous change in the political landscape. ... it might make the republican primary in florida-- or any other state-- a referendum on who is closer to obama or who most stridently opposes barack obama, personally and his program-- the person who seems as the most intent and committed in opposition to the president will probably wen. >> lehrer: and in this case, it's rubio. >> it is rubio. it's interesting -- the party is in one of two states. it's either streaking converts, that is, welcoming in dissident democrats, and the democrats did under barack obama . or it's going-- hunting down and maybe searching or hunt are for a few her ticks. i think -- rubio is definitely nominateable. the question sis he electable? charlie crist is reverse. he is not nominateable but he has proven himself to be electable. >> lehrer: where do you see this politics of anger fitting into this? is that just a special case in florida that judy went through just now? or is that happening elsewhere in the country? >> well, obviously the ang ser elsewhere i would make a couple of distinctions, though. there are two big races where you've got a genuine tea party candidate running against sort of an establishment republican if you put it that way, and that's the florida senate race and the arzone lansenate race. which is not to compare rubio to hayworth. rubio is a much more impressive figure by any stretch of the imagination. nonetheless, it is worth pointing out in most states the republicans running for the senate or governor, are pretty conventional republicans and not 53 tatter at all. you look at mark kirk in illinois, who beat a tea party candidate quite easily. in california you have people like carly firina and meg whitman running, so the idea that the republican party is being taken over by the tea party is not true in a couple of these races. that's one thing. the republican party is still the recognizable republican party, not the tea party. but the anger is just tremendous. and as i said, i think some republicans incumbents are going to lose because the anti-incumbent ang ser soso strong. as i mentioned last week, the democratic party approval rating is at its lowest point since they start asking the question. there's bye-bye this angry tide and the democrats are bearing the brunt of it. >> lehrer: what about, mark, david's theory here that the real problem here with crist, if he's going to run as a moderate he's got to act leek a moderal and doing this bill isn't enough. they say this is a political move, right? >> that's right. i think charlie crist-- charlie crist got into the race, and there were accolades. there was almost an audible sense of a sigh of appreciation from the republican establishment. he didn't get in the way most people get into a race-- what is it i want to do? what are the three things i stand for? he's enormously popular. he gets the nomination. he was going to be the next senator. and i think that that, first of all, you know, a real complication, and a real problem for his candidacy. he does have a record. i mean , it's a fairly impressive record as governor, and in tough times. it's interesting, charlie crist did something at the dinner with the governors at the white house which is totally off record -- >> totally off the record. you're not going to tell us? >> no. totally off the record, and two other governors there, and he stood up and said, "mr. president ,"-- this was two months ago-- "mr. property, i'm going to say something everybody in the room knows is true it's stimus package was the right thing to do and it's made a difference in my state and all the states." the governors who told me that said wow. he's got two weeks, jim, to run as an independent. he was very calculating, careful in his words with judy. and he is stronger in a general election campaign , than he is in a -- >> so the polls show him right there with rubio. >> leading both rubio and the democratic nominee. >> ficould just make a broader point, my core frustration which keeps me up at night. people often ask, we're a bellcurve country. most people are in the middle. so why don't we have a bellcurve washington and there are a million things that contribute to this? one of them is the centrists and mod rats don't have coherent philosophys that they can explain, "this is why i'm doing this. this is why i'm consistent. this is why i'm not a political opportunist." you go to a centrist dinner, and there are a bunch of lobbyists. >> lehrer: trying to get things done. >> well, it's also an intellectual vacuum. if you're sort of rooting for the center against the extremes, you've got a frustration because you don't want -- >> let's move on from that issue, which is still -- i'm going to stay on subject, but move to another question, which is what-- how do you read the fact that all the republicans in the senate have now said they are not going to support... financial reform legislation? is this part of this division that is not going to go away any time soon? >> politics is the most imitative of all human art forms. if something works once, you do it over and over. 18 months ago, the republicans party was dead meat. they had suffered the worst defeat presidently than any party in years. tom davis the republican leader said if they were dog food they would take them off the shelves. 18 months later, they're leading in the polls. they're expected to win house seats, maybe reclaim the house. how did they do it? they it by standing together against climate change, against the economic stimulus, and against health care. did they come up with competing idea? if they did, they kept them pretty quiet. that's what they did. why not? what's risk of standing up -- >> you see the same thing? >> there were two really unpopular institutions-- there are probably more but two, wall street and government. so the democrats are trying it say they're the party of government, and the republicans are trying to say they're the party of government and that's essentially the messaging. beyond the messaging war , there actually is a substantive debate ask a lot of people are very uncertain about how to regulate wall street. are the f.d.i.c. qualifyed to oversee a firm that's about to go to business and sort of take it over fair little while? that's a substantive matter. and on those substantive matters there have been people like the republican senator from tennessee. they've been deeply involved in crafting the bill. and even the ""wall street journal"" editorial said the bill was move moving in the right direction. it wasn't a "hell no." >> just two quick points. one is the argument that this is a bailout for the banks and banks want it. now,, the bill that was written by barney frank in the house and chris dodd in the senate was such a pro-bank bill, as the republicans are charging, big banks on wall street, then why has wall street and big banks hired every lobbyist who isn't under indictment or in detox in washington to work against it? that's the first-- that's the first point. the second point is goldman sachs today. >> lehrer: i was gog ask you about that. >> goldlman sachs, i think it made opposition to financial regulation an increasingly unpopular critical position. >> lehrer: do you agree , david? >> wrts wts is already in the toilet. nobody is going to be defending wall street. the question is do we think a bunch of people in the f.d.i.c. can determine when a firm is about to go under. when you get into derivatives you're well below politics. >> lehrer: what about the nuclear summit, president obama's nuclear summit? 30 seconds. >> every issue that barack obama has basically addressed-- whether it's iraq or afghanistan or the bailout, has been something he inherit. this is his own-- this is his own issue. this is something he worked on. he didn't work on an awful lot of issues in the senate fair language time before he headed for iowa and new hampshire. but this is one he really has cared about deeply. and the criticism is, well they didn't do everything. but you did something. and that-- that's an -- >> you see it as a positive thing? >> i do. >> gray. you look at some of the countries who weren't caring about it that much and did positive thing-- ukraine, chile-- you know, it's a positive step forward. >> lehrer: do you agree with mark this is something he did not have to do. >> it wasn't the biggest thing in the world, but it's a step forward. i'm for little steps forward. why not? >> lehrer: okay. >> brown: finally tonight, we turn to thailand, scene of weeks of anti-government protests. the trouble in the heart of bangkok has scared off many and gigantic ash clouds from an erupting volcano in iceland shut down air traffic across much of europe again. the newshour is always online. hari sreenivasan, in our newsroom, previews what's there, which includes the details of why i will be absent from the newshour the next three weeks, visiting public television stations and talking about my new novel. hari. >> sreenivasan: we'll be tracking jim's travels online. right now, you can watch a guided tour of jim's office, which is filled with an amazing amount of bus memorabilia; and also a bit on his novel titled, "super," set on a streamliner train in the 1950s. you can find all of our spotlight city coverage and learn more about florida's tea party movement; watch an interview on obesity in america with marc ambinder of "the atlantic"; and on "art beat," listen to jeff's conversation with the pulitzer winner for fiction paul harding. also there, a look at renewed interest in the beloved science- fiction series "doctor who". all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. jeff. >> brown: and that's the newshour for tonight. i'm jeffrey brown. >> lehrer: and i'm jim lehrer. "washington week" can be seen later this evening on most pbs stations. we'll see you online, and again here monday evening. have a nice weekend. thank you, good night, and i'll see you in three weeks. and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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