Transcripts For WETA Charlie Rose 20130219

Rose we continue this evening with designer Carolina Herrera and her musical collaborators tom hodge and javier peral. Everything is an inspiration and i went to the music because i think its a its so normal to be inspired by music. I think every designer is always listening to music and music transports you in a romance, in a dream, everything. Rose we conclude this evening with Mickey Edwards, author of the parties versus the people how to turn republicans and democrats into americans. The problem is not republicans. The problem is republicans and democrats, the white house and the congress. Its people on all sides who say you know, we have an ideology and were not going to ever reach a point where were going to compromise. Were going to fall on our swords. But we have a country to run, charlie. Weve got to make sure the troops get their supplies. Weve got to make sure we pay our bills. Weve got to make sure the water is pure, the bridges dont collapse. You know, theres a point you say i stood up for my principles, im going to fight for my principles. And then at the end because theres 300 million of us because were very diverse, you need to compromise and say how do we make government work for the country . Rose education, fashion and politics when we continue. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Michelle Rhee is here. She is one of those widely known and perhaps most controversial figures in education. She served as chancellor of the d. C. Public School System from 2007 to 2010. Her sweeping reforms and hardnosed style have changed the National Debate over School Reform. She has written a new book about her vision for american education. Its called radical fighting to put students first. I am pleased to have Michelle Rhee back at this table. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Rose why did you call it radical . You know, when i started the job in d. C. I was i took over the lowest performing and dysfunctional School District in the entire nation. So i started making very rapid changes. I started closing down lowperforming schools, removing ineffective educators, i cut a Central Office bureaucracy in half. To me those seemed like really obvious moves to make. Rose right. What was interesting, though, is people started saying shes a lightning rod, shes radical, shes doing all these controversial things. And i thought, really. I just thought rose you thought it was just common sense . Yeah, exactly. Finally it came to me that if bringing common sense to a dysfunctional system makes me a radical than i am okay being radical. Rose youre happy to be a radical. Dedicated to the children of washington, d. C. Who deserve the best schools in the world. Thats right. Rose why do they deserve it more than anyone else . I think because they are the children in our Nations Capital and that says something to me. That says something to me and the rest of the world about how we value children and education when the children in the capital of america which is supposed to be the greatest country on earth are reading and doing math 80 of them are on grade level. Thats a travesty. Thats criminal. And so i with all of my heart believe that those kids deserve the best education in the entire world. Rose this is the last paragraph of the introduction called arms. My goal is to have created a movement that will remake American Public education so that every child can have the opportunity to learn and excel and join a work force that will help the United States compete and win in a global economy. It will not be easy or gentle. It will not be quick. It will require a struggle over power and money. My grandmother asked how hard can that be . Very. So tell me about the struggle that has to be fought. Well engaged. Look at where we are as a country. We are ranked 14th, 17th, and 25th out of all developed nations in reading, science and math respectively. Our 25th ranking in math puts us behind countries like hungary and slovakia, which is i mean this is just not who we are as a nation. And in order to rose not what made us great. No. And its not going to make us great in the future unless we fix it. And i think that, you know, if you look at America Today we have one of the lowest social mobility rates in the entire world. Meaning if you are a child born into poverty in this country, the chances you will ever escape poverty are not good. Which i think goes counter to everything we believe in as a country. So whats at stake is the lives of kids and the values of this nation which i think are of preeminent importance and its a struggle because there are a lot of people and a lot of forces that want to maintain the status quo, who do not want things to change and who are going to fight tooth and nail. Rose when people hear you say that, they think youre talking about teachers and Teachers Unions. I absolutely am not talking about teachers. In fact, i dont think that were going to be able to reform the Education System without teachers. Rose Teachers Unions . Teachers unions you know, people want to say to me all the time that the Teachers Unions are the major obstacle in this whole fight and they are the reason why things are as bad as they are. I just dont put the singular blame on Teachers Unions. The job of Teachers Unions is to maximize the pay and privileges and priorities of their members. And they are doing a phenomenal job of that. Rose do you think its their job to protect those that are not very good simply because theyre a member of the union and the union is pledged to protect the interest of their members regardless of their performance . Yeah. That is their purpose. The purpose of Teachers Unions is not to raise student achievement levels, it is to protect their members and thats exactly what theyre doing. We cant begrudge them that. Rose but does the union not want to see better teachers . Does the union not want to see teachers be rewarded for performance . You know, you would think that they would. Rose they say that they would. And they say often that they would. But, you know, when i was in d. C. And we put a a proposal on the table in front of them at one point to pay highly effective teachers basically double the amount of money that they were in the old system. Rose if you could do what . If we basically got rid of tenure and seniority. Rose so you said if we can get rid of tenure and seniority we will pay them twice as much. And this was a choice that all teachers could make whether they wanted to opt into the system or not. And the union was not in favor of it. And i continue to struggle to understand why they continue to oppose initiatives that want to pay the best teachers more money. Because in my opinion, there is no more important job in this nation than being a teacher. Rose bill gates was here recently and he talked about teacher performance. How should we measure it . Well, the Gates Foundation has done some amazing work on this front. Because for a long time people said, well, we cant possibly measure teacher performance, its an art not a science, et cetera. And what the Gates Foundation has found is that actually you can measure teacher performance. Rose by more than simply test scores of the students. Thats right. Student academic growth should be part of the equation based on their research but you should look at observations to classroom practice, you should look at interestingly, they found that how students rated their teachers correlated very highly to teacher overall performance. So kids really know whether or not theyre in the classroom of a highly effective teacher or not. But the reality is that we have known for a very long time that we could identify Great Teachers and identify not so Great Teachers. You walk into any School Building anywhere in this country today and you ask parents or kids or other teachers whos the best teacher in the school . Theyll tell you. Say whos not so good . Theyll tell you that person, too. So there is a way that we can identify where different teachers are in terms of their performance. We just have to have a commitment to doing so. Rose do School Boards need more power . Well, i would say no to that question because School Boards in my opinion rose the influence well, i think School Boards in this country have been very susceptible to the political process and so often times School Boards are some of the most dysfunctional bodies that exist, political bodies that exist in this country. And they certainly havent moved ] around. They filmed me in a meeting when i was firing a principal. Rose why would you do that . Now let me be clear. The persons name and nobody knew who that person was. All. Not, you know, quote unquote humiliating to the person. Rose so why did you do it . At the time i thought i want to be very clear that it is a new day in the washington, d. C. Public schools. That we are no longer going to allow the status quo to rule. But when i look back on Something Like that, i was incredibly naive about what message that sent. And so what i would say about that particular circumstance is should i have terminated that principal . Absolutely. He was ineffective, he was not doing good things rose should you have done in the front of a camera . No. Rose but im more interested in programs and ideas. Obviously you became polarizing to a degree. Yes. Rose but you could argue that the expression is you have to break an egg to make an omelet and therefore you had to break an egg. You had to come in and say, look we can do it differently. Yeah. Rose but what are the results . Because i always have a hard time and help me with this, i really dont know. Determining success in education. Because ill pick up the paper tomorrow and say Charter Schools arent as good as they thought they were. Right. Rose pick up the paper the next day and theyll say vouchers are terrific. Right. Rose then the next day youll have somebody come back who has a different political view and say no, no, no. And thats why the American People are so confused right now. Because they hear me say one thing, they hear somebody else say another thing. Rose they dont know how to measure. Thats right. And then they say whos right . I cant figure it out. Rose what works and doesnt work. So heres what i would say. About d. C. , we were only there for three and a half years so did we accomplish everything that we wanted to . Absolutely not. Did we make significant progress that outsize it had progress of the district has been making before . Yes. Thats unequivocal. And if you look at the achievement rates of the children, we moved from a situation where about a quarter of the kids were on grade level in mathematics and reading in the Elementary School to now over half. You only have half the kids, thats not acceptable. But when youre seeing that much progress i think we can say that we were doing something right. Ill give you another example. When we were there, we nut place a new teacher performance Evaluation System that got a lot of heat and people didnt like it, et cetera. There was a recent study that came out a few weeks ago that studied a number of urban districts across the country and what it concluded was that these cities were all retaining ineffective teachers at the same rate that they were retaining effective teachers. There was no differentiation. The one outlied liar was washington, d. C. And what they showed in washington, d. C. Is that we were retaining about 88 of our highly effective teachers and and only 40 of the ineffective teachers. And this to me says youre doing something right. And weve done something right. So i think when you take a look at the data, its clear that some progress was made. I think that, though, if you want an example of where has it worked . Where are all of the kids getting an excellent education . That has yet to happen. I think its possible, we can get there, but we dont a proof point at a district or city level yet. Rose whats your assessment of arne duncan . I think arne duncan and the president have done some incredibly bold and innovative things. I think the president has been very clear for his entire administration that he backs School Reform but he think its important. I never thought id see the day where a democratic president stood up in front of the nation and said we should recognize and reward Great Teachers and if youre not good we need to find you another job. I mean, the fact that he said that and started that dialogue i think gave people cover to have this conversation. I think race to the top was a brilliant idea. That initiative sparked more legislative action in a short period of time rose this is the places where they were doing interesting and innovative things. Thats right. So they basically put a pot of money aside 4. 3 billion and they said were going to give this money out to states who are pushing the envelope and doing aggressive reform. Rose no child left behind . You know, a lot of people say no child left behind the republicans dont like it, the democrats dont like it, the democrats dont like it. I will say that its far from a perfect law but what it did was it brought accountability to our system. Rose you say in america we see education as a social issue. Thats right. Rose and we ought to see it as a political issue as an economic issue. As an economic issue. Yeah. I heard the Prime Minister of singapore speak a number of years ago. We were actually at that conference and i dont know if you remember or not but it was fascinating to me. He said when we set our sights on growing our country to be an economic powerhouse we prioritized education, we built the best Education System that we could. Because we knew that that was going to ensure that we were successful. Rose turning out talented people. Thats right. Rose people who are competitive. Now if you look at that country theres sovereign wealth and theyre doing quite well. Because they made they tied education to the economy. I think exact opposite happens here. Rose yeah. In the last president ial election we heard maybe three lines about it. Rose in any debate. And the shocking thing is when we know that our problem in this country is jobs and the economy you cant not talk about education because the only way that were going to regain our position in the global marketplace is to have a skilled work force. Rose you can either see it as a spending issue or an investment issue. Thats right. And we 100 in this country do not see as an investment in our future. I think thats extraordinarily problematic. Rose but are we spending our dollars well, is the question. No. No. I saw a really interesting scatter plot about two years ago it was of all of the developed nations in the world and on one axis it was academic achievement levels and on the other it was per student expenditures. And we were in the quadrant that you dont want to be in. The you spend a lot of money and get low academic achievement results. We were alone if that quadrant with lux. Burg. I dont know what lech semibourg is doing. Rose so students first if your organization. You want to engage the debate and put out ideas. What else . These are the ideas and experiences. We want to motivate everyday people to understand that they can make a difference. Rose you want to start a Grassroots Movement that will have political effect . That will have influence on the debate that we are having today, the decisions that our politicians are making. One of the things that i did when i was writing radical is i traveled around the country and not only did i tell my own story about parents i met along the way, but i talked about our students first members. Everyday moms who were incredibly frustrated with the public schooling experience their kids were having. Didnt know what to do about it, got involved with students first started to organize their neighbors and push for better laws and policies for our kids and then had a victory. I think its empowering to read these stories about what we did in d. C. And what these parents are doing in other places to understand that individual people can make a difference, absolutely. Rose does Kevin Johnson believe the same things you do about Teachers Unions . You know, so rose your husband. This is my husband who is the mayor of sacramento. Rose former n. B. A. All star. Thats right. It was interesting. Is when i first met Kevin Johnson i was listening to him speak and he was talking about the fact that when he retired from the n. B. A. He decided to go back home to the neighborhood that he grew up in and start a Charter School and he said that he went into the school, it was one of the lowest performing schools in the city and said this is what im going to do, were going to make this school great again and the teachers clapped and he said a week later i came back and people were hissing and booing as i came in and i realized the Teachers Union had come in and told them this is terrible, youre going to lose your jobs. And the Teachers Union spent 7 50,000 to make sure he couldnt open the Charter School. And when he told that story and i listened to it i thought, wow, we have something in common. laughs radical fighting to put students first. Michelle rhee, thank you. Thank you. Rose good to see yo good to see you, too. Rose Carolina Herrera is one of fashions most prominent designers her name has become synonymous with elegance. Fashion, she once said on this program, is a fascinating madness fantasy. Her new estefan tae tasy was to create an original piece of music to go along with her designs for her fall, 2013 collection which she unveiled in new york she commissioned javier peral and john hodge to create an original score. Here is a look at their collaboration. Rose joining me now is tom hodge the composer, javier peral the d. J. And music producer and the designer herself, Carolina Herrera. Im pleased to have them at this table. Thank you. So much for inviting us. Rose so heres the question, the two of you have been working together since 2000. Rose and what was the normal process . The normal process is when you have to collection ready then you call the d. J. Which is javier and he brings a lot of music and i chose rose this is after the clothes have been designed. Yes. After the clothes have been designed. This time you know, fashion is finding something new that inspires you. And this time i was inspired by the music before designing the collection. Rose thats whats different. So let me go back to the story. You come to him and you want to do something different. Absolutely different. Rose what do you say, javier . The whole story in the connection between tom and i was because i admired toms music and i didnt know tom and we used tom in the spring, 2012, show, which was revered by the new york city with a play list and tom write away wrote me an email and we developed a friendship from that moment on and rose just a friendship . No sense of taking it further . No. Until i spoke to carolina and i said what if we do this for the first time . And carolina said i want to do that. Rose why did you want to do it . Because i was very impressed for what we do for that show, it was pag kneeny. So the way he took paganini and really robbed it. laughter i said it was so fantastic that i told javier why dont we investigate a little bit more and get together with tom and see what he can offer us. And im a great fan of beethoven and i adored beethoven always in every sonata, everything. Rose and so what did you do, tom, after that . You went to i went to the piano. Immediately. Rose thats what we saw there. You said im going to create music. Yes, yes, sat down and started making some sketches. Rose but what inspired you . Was it seeing what . Thinking about what . What was the big question. Inspiration question. Yes. Beethoven for starters. I mean, its a fabulous piece of music. But also coming to the show last february was absolutely vital, really, getting a sense of the occasion, a sense of the draw drama, a sense of the emotion of it all, i suppose. Rose its theater. Absolutely. Rose its theater. I could find parallels with theater, parallels with dance, almost, and film to some degree. The film music thats often used. Rose certainly video. Absolutely. Yes. Rose so, you know, it just that was pie vitale to see that. So he has music and you listen to the music. The sonata for violin and piano was perfect for what i had in mind after i heard what you did. Because we had the drama, it had the romance, there was a bit of melancholy also. It had all the ingredients for what i wanted to have in the show. So its very amusing to be inspired by the music and there you have the whole show in front of you, in front of my eyes, but yesterday it was in front of everyone rose yeah. And i think it did work. It worked so well because i had it all in my mind with a little hint of the 40s for the skirts that move very well and the tiny waist and the shoulders. Rose so it inspired you to create. Absolutely. And i had it in my mind very light at the beginning. Im talking about the clothes and the colors. And then it went in crescendo, which is exactly like that music was. So it was perfect. Rose was this an enjoyable satisfying experience for you . Very, yeah. Rose because . Um, well, i have a i love getting a chance to work with taking classic music and remaking it and rose and youre painting on a different canvas. Thats a great way of putting it, yeah. The chance to experience to try to do this in the context of the world of fashion, thats and to be working with an iconic rose javier, do you think youre going to start something here . Laugh laughs we want to hear you dont know how great it is to have the opportunity to work with tom and tailor music to a show because the most difficult part of my job is to find great music for a show. Rose and he presented it to you on a silver platter. Already. Perfect. Yeah, and we got it, we tailored the music to how the show ended which was magical when that was perfection the last keys on the piano and she turned the corner and the piece faded and died. It was beautiful. The whole experience, charles has been very, very exciting. First because when i went to london to the abbey road studio to listen to the whole thing almost ready with the contemporary orchestra in london it was amazing. Amazing the experience of being there and seeing the whole thing and i have everything in my mind. It has been incredible. Rose seeing it on paper was incredible. It was. And the name also laughs rose this sonata you loved. Loved. Rose did you present her with other ideas or did this is this where you knew to go because she already told you this is what inspires me . Well, we tried we started out with a handful of ideas but it was from what javier told me this one jumped out for her. This is the one. Rose this is the one. The minute for probably the first 15 seconds carolina said this is the one. But tom is the composer and the one who fix it is whole thing. I would not do any other. I love the way it sounded but im not pretending to be a composer so hes the key here. But you also said that fashion you said this to the new york times. Fashion is all about finding something new and inspiring. And inspiring. And that is absolutely true. Because it did inspire me for this collection, the music. Rose now, when you look at this collection, is it different in any way from any other collection you have done because you operated in a different way . You know, i have to tell you that this was so easy because we started with the music and it went so fantastically well. The i didnt have any doubt when i have a collection ready how many times do we see and listen to all the music to put it together and javier are you sure of this one . Do you want to change that one . This was very easy because everyone everything went really well. Rose this was the opening of carolinas fall 2013 show which was the opening here in new york at lincoln center. Roll tape. Rose take me through process for you to create collection. All right. Ill take you through the process. First comes the materials that youre going to use, the fabrics. Rose fabrics. Now, is it a true story of you that you went and said i want to design fabrics and she said no, no, my dear. She said thats very boring. laughs you have to do something else. Why dont you design a collection . She gave me the idea and i was very lucky because i had the opportunity to start in new york. The other one who pushed me was ruby crespy. Remember him . Rose yes. And after 30 years of teaching here as a designer of clothes and not fabrics. laughs rose but you start with fabrics now. As a designer you start with fabrics. And then i have my team. I have a team also because i dont do it on any own. Well sit and rose so with the designing of the collection is the collaborative process in. My idea and then we start collaborating all together. Rose do you look for some overriding theme for every collection . Yes, but i am a bit tired of all these themes. So im trying to do the clothes in a very easy way for a woman to understand that what shes going to wear is going to make her look very beautiful. You know why i say that . Because i nam the beauty business. My business is to make women look more beautiful. Rose and perfume, too. And perfume also. But sometimes you get carried away and you do things that are totally unwearable to get the attraction of the press and i think i dont want to confuse the women who wear Carolina Herrera. They know exactly what im going to show them more or less but it has to be something new every season. Rose do you think the fact that you have been so identified with elegance and the white blouse and shirt, you know, has stood you in good stead . Because it has provided a continuum for you as a person . Do you know any woman who doesnt want to look elegant or sophisticated or chic . Rose no but not at all times. Not tauplts. You know why . Because sometimes that think that being labeled elegant or chic is oldfashioned. I dont think so. Fashion is for your eye, to please your eye and to please the others that are looking at you so i dont find it rose but how hard is it year after year with the love generality youve had to come up with something new and inspiring and different and creative . You have to be inspired always. If you are a designer first of all you have to have the talent and your eyes open to see whats going on and i can be inspired by talking to you. Or maybe i can be inspired by the color of your tie. Rose laughs yes. Everythings an inspiration and i went to the music because i think its so normal to be inspired by music. I think every designer is always listening to music and music transports you in a romance, in a dream, in everything. Rose did you did you see and understand and appreciate a connection between fashion and music that you might not have thought about before . Absolutely, yeah. I guess i realized how the important it makes an emotional connection. The music help makes an emotion connection to the people looking at the clothes. Like it does with film and like it does with so many things. Yeah, i realized that fully when i came to the show last year how important it was. Rose take a look at this. Heres the end of the show. Rose so youve been walking around, you stood at the door no, i dont do that. In fact, i wouldnt. laughs five seconds and they always ask me can you walk a little bit more . laughs no way rose if somebody came up to you and said what was the theme of this . Would you say to them i dont want to know about themes, this was different. It was different because it was about the music but it was also a hint of the 40s, though for 2013. Rose what did you like about the 40s . I loved the tiny waist, the movement of the skirts, the treatment of the shoulders and the glamour of the 40s. Rose before we go, i want to talk about the definition of fashion which i have often talked about on this show. Take a look at this this is what some people have said about fashion sitting at this table. Tell me what fashion means to you. For me its something that reflects life, times, and the sharpest relief because design, architecture, takes more years. Fashion reflects whats going on in the world rose at the moment. Yes. Whatever it is, good or bad it influences fashion and you can see that in fashion quicker than in any other thing going on. My goal as a Fashion Designer was to take in everything that was happening culturally. Fashion reflects where we are as a society. I dont know that it necessarily leads it. But it says a lot about where we are as a as i just said, as a society. Everyone has a little bit of a dream, they jump into that dream they see something in magazines, they want to be that guy they see. They want to be that guy in the movie. They want to be that guy thats living certain lives. And so clothing, in my mind, was not was the role. You get into it then you have to be. Rose see, heres the interesting question, listening to that and i said what you had said before its a part of culture as is music, and theater and dance and design. They are part of the creative expression that dominate our culture and take from the culture. Whats amazing to me, too, is that each year there are new and fresh designers who weve never heard of and yet theyre creating a sensation but theyve done somethat that have grabbed attention. Because they have talent and they can do it. But i tell you something everybody designs fashion in a different way. I told you its madness, craziness, mysterious, romance, everything mixed. But its very, very necessary for your everyday life. Because youre getting dressed every morning and only choosing the color of your tie to go with your suit and your shirt you are in fashion already. Rose laughs i have to think about that idea. It is true. Even if you dont like it, you are. Rose your family works with you . Carolina, my daughter, and patricia. Carolina in the side of purchase and patricia with my design team. Rose and your husband is involved as well . No, hes not. Hes our advisor. laughs rose its great to see you. Congratulations. This is fantastic. Javier, good to see you. Great to see you. Rose Mickey Edwards is here, he represented oklahomas fifth Congressional District for 16 years until 1993. His conservative credentials are impeccable. Hes a founding trustee of the Heritage Foundation and chaired the Republican Policy Committee and the american conservative union. Now he believes government has become dysfunctional and partisan warfare threatens the national interest. This comes as a time when washington is gearing up far major fight about raising the debt ceiling. His new book is called the parties versus the people. How to turn republicans and democrats into americans. Im pleased to have Mickey Edwards at this table. Welcome. Thank you, charlie. Rose tell me what we need to do here to turn republicans and democrats into people . They are people who care about the country, they want to do the right thing, but the reward system that we have created where in order to get elected to Congress Today through the closed Party Primaries and the fact that if you lose your primary you cant be on the ballot in november means basically the people who go to washington are the ones selected by a small number of hard core ideologues who vote in the Party Primaries. Rose thats been that way far while, hasnt it . Not extreme but the most active elements have control of the election . They do. And sometimes you see things like in utah where Robert Bennett was trying to run for renomination they had a confession and 2,000 people voted against anymore a state of three Million People and he couldnt be on the ballot. Same thing happened in delaware where mike castle, he lost to a woman who got 30,000 votes. He couldnt be on the ballot. So were looking at people who represent the no compromisers, the hardliners because of the system weve created. Rose how would you change the system . You need to take away from the parties the ability to control redistricting. Because that makes the districts not only more partisan but creates situations where somebody like me who is from a city ended up representing wheat farmers whose views i didnt rose you like wheat farmers. I like wheat farmers but i didnt understand their concerns and thats because the parties control the redistricting. Open primaries where the candidates have to run against their opponents repealing to democrats, government republicans, libertarians, the entire electorate, youll get a very different result than what f what youre doing is trying to please hardliners so you can get the nomination. Rose you would change redistricting . I would. 13 states allow nonpartisan redistricting commissions not dominated by the party that controls the legislature. I would do that immediately. I would do the same thing that Washington State and california did and get rid of closedParty Primaries the founders didnt want political parties, they all said dont create them. We ignored them and this is the mess we have. Rose should we do away with the Electoral College . I dont know about the Electoral College but i think one of the things you can do is what some states have started to do which is to say we will give the electoral votes statewide to the person who carries the state. But we will also give votes to the person who controlleds or carries each Congressional District. Maine does that its a way that its not winner take all. Both parties have a chance to do well. Rose and you just elected an independent senator. Angus king said he is going there hes going caucus with the democrats. But he has said that what hes going to do is decide every issue on its merits, talk to people in both parties. And we need more of that. We need more people who say my allegiance is to the country, not my political party. Rose when you look at politics today, the dysfunction its there, do you believe it will be different or more extreme in the next four years of the Obama Administration . You know, already were looking at whos going to be the nominee for president in both parties and weve already started that campaign and people positioning themselves for it. Unless its a systemic problem. Its not the people, its the system and unless we change the system its going to be at least as extreme because the reward system is as youve seen, youve seen hit in the elections this year. You run for office, you say i will never compromise, im going to stick to my principals no matter what, well shut down the government if we have to. Rose so what happens if the republicans, say were prepared to shut down the government. Anybody who says theyre willing to shut down the government has got a real serious problem and doesnt belong in public office. Rose that the responsibility of the republicans or does the president bear any responsibility if they believe they were forced to. Its not the republicans. The problem is not republicans, the problem is republicans and democrats, its the white house and the congress its people on all sides who say we have an ideology and were not going to reach a point where were going to compromise. Well fall on our swords. We have a country to run, charlie. We have to make sure troops get their supplies, pay our bills, make sure the water is pure, the bridges dont collapse. That theres a point where you say ive stood up for my principles and at the end because theres 300 million of us and were very diverse you need to compromise. You need to say how do we make government work for the country . Rose did the election diminish the power of the tea party or enhance it . Well, it did both. There were a lot of Tea Party Types who didnt win but at the same time rose alan west in florida. But there were people who lost primaries because they were singled out by the tea party or on the democratic side the blue dogs are gone. So if youre in congress whats the incentive system . The incentive system is to please those people who are going to decide whether you can win the nomination. Because they choose whether or not your career goes on or not. So those people whether its left or right who say well use the primaries to knock off people who are reasonable and thoughtful and talk to people from the other party, as long as theyre table to do that, the incentive is to keep them happy. You dont need to worry about the general electric. Rose what kind of gun control legislation do you think the country ought to have . You know, its noneny. I had a history that. I was shot three times when somebody tried to rob me so im not very fond of guns. Ty think they have a Second Amendment right and the court has said that but we dont need guns with big clips that can mow down whole theaters full of people at one time. Those things ought to be banned and its an example. Its unreasonable. There are ways to find reasonable Middle Grounds on all kinds of issues. Rose do you think the n. R. A. Represents gun owners. I think they represent some. Some owners say who needs those clips . You dont need rose and would you ban assault weapons . Heres what im trying to do. Its not a matter of which issue. What i want are people who have different point of views are going to sit down and say how do we work this out. Off Second Amendment right. We also dont want people mowed down in theaters or schools. Theres got to be a way to find a compromise so that we can live with both. Rose and how do you choose . You change the reward system, you change the incentive system. Where the people who are elected are the ones who appeal to the interests and concerns and preferences of the entire electorate. Thats not what we do. We have a congress and a white house that represent the base in both parties the base. And to heck with the base. Were trying to take care of the government for all of the United States. Rose has the definition of conservatism changed . What it means to be a conservative . I mean, youre proud of the reputation you had as a thinking man. I think one of the things thats very interesting is that if you compare the platform that Barry Goldwater ran on in 1964 and you compare where Ronald Reagan came from in 1980 and 78 76 and compare it to where republicans are today, its very different. Its a different part of conservatism. The social conservatism has taken over and its not what the party was originally. One example is the Heritage Foundation which i helped to form and their Mission Statement today is very different from what it was when it was written in 1973. Rose how is it different . Its got an emphasis on social issues. About we not only want to have Free Enterprise and Strong Military and strong Foreign Policy presence but we also want to tell people how to live. Its not just republicans. The democrats are the same way. Neither side wants to find where we can come together as americans. Its the problem is not with the American People. The American People have strong views. But the American People want government thats going to solve things. They want government thats going to i dont know what you and i agree on or dont agree on but ill bet you if there was so problem in the studio or somewhere else and we wanted to solve it wed sit down and solve it. Rose absolutely. Still, im bothered by how you get it how does someone from change the system you suggest change incentives as you suggest change the parties that you suggest it. And make sure tail is not waging the dog. For one thing, the influence of money is very corrosive and the money is not coming from grassroots from people like you and me who want to support candidates from outside interest groups. Rose and super pacs. Super pacs. Rose do they have as much influence as we thought they might . They do as a close race. If youre in a close race and they come in with a big chunk of money will that can make the difference. But youve also got inside congress, how do you get a on a Committee Position where you can make a difference for the country. By pleasing your Party Leaders that youll stick with the party line. You have partisan speakers. Some countries have speakers who are not partisan. We say our speaker of the house or Senate Majority leaders are Party Leaders. Not legislative leaders. You can change that, you dont even need to be a member of the congress. Rose youd never think about going back . I did that. Fortunately through the Aspin Institute i run a program for Young Political leaders. So im trying to do my part this way writing a book. Im happy to be doing it that way. Rose great to have you here. Thank you, charlie. Rose the book is called the parties versus the people how to turn republicans and democrats into americans. Thank you for joining us. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org