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what the predent has been talking about i afghanistan deteriorating. if they say there are only a hundred members of al qaeda in afghanistan y is the deteriorating? a lot of people will say if the taliban is not the proem. >> i think also in the last 24 hours you've seen statement made that we're notoing to let afghanistan fallo the taliban. and i think what ey're trying to do is set the parameters, on the one hander with not expecting to remake afghanist in to a morn democracy, on the other hand we're not jus going attack the al eda and pakistan with the drones >> crlie: we talk about the nationalootball league with the commissioner, roger goodell. >> coaching is obviouslydevelops deloped, technology developed all of these things iluence the game. we monitor each aspect of our ga to make sure that it continues to be competitive and enterry taping, st pac becauswe know that people are more danding now of wha they spend at are time with in entertainmen the biggest thing we keep th emotional connectn between our teams d the fans, that' critical. >>harlie: we end with conversation with the govern of indiana republin, mitch daniels. >> i he i'm wrong about. thisbut i thinkhaw we don't yet see the evidence of so-called v-sped or any sort of ridcome back. hit us very suddenly inndiana, we were at full employment i apri may of last year. but are a stronghd of manufacturing, sll one of the most manufacturing intensive states in america when that all stopped when auto sales plummeted, rv salestopped cold, people needed less fuel, hit usery suddenly. we'll be awhile ming back. >> charlie: erages, footballnd politiwithin we continue. captioning sponsed by rose cmunications from our studi in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: we ben with administerg's ongoing review of the strategy in afghanian, president obama is sd to be seeking a middle ground between the stark choice of either doubling down or leaving afanistan. today a earer picture of his thinking bee ctinue to emee senior administration ficials speaking to reporters emphase that the focus now on defeating al qaeda in pakistan highlighting recent successes in killg al qaeda members there. they sayose less of security risk to american interts. the prident iseported to be learning towards smaller build up otroops thanroposed by commanng general, stanley mccrystal. he will meet again withis national security team tomorw with the focuss expected to b troopumbers. joing me is jamie ruben, serv in the statedepartment during the clinton administering. from washington peter baker of the "new yk times" and mtha of abc news. i am pleased to have all of em here as we begin ts fourth day of looking at afgnistan and pastan as that subject is considered a the top owhat is haening i the whiteouse over these lt four orfive days. per, you have been writing about this for t time,ell me where you tnk the conversation is, and ho they're trying to frame it and how it may be changing from where they began. >> well, i think that they are trying to relook atwhat is really in arica'sational interest here. if you look at afghanistan and pakistan figure out what is a direct threat to the unid states, to the heland, the first answer is al qaeda in pakistan. the theory is there's not very many fhters from al qaeda ft in afghanistan, perps fewer than a hundred according to american officials. therefore, the cus ought to be more intensely onhose boer areas of paktan where weave recentlyeen these predors stris, special operation raid so forth bring so successes. if you assumehat there fo the top priority is al qaeda they arthe ones trying to strike america, what does that mean for afghanistan. e theory then is being diussed in the white houses that the taliban doesn't tually aspire to attack the united states pper. and so then question becomes, would theye enabler of al qda if we don't mage to get rid of them in afghanistan. n they provide safe haven oe again for al qaeda. those are the issues that are ing through right now in thi debate that you' seeing in the admistration. >> chaie: what is the politi that's driving the debate, not that the national security not the first a morphos terests, where are the litics if there are any? >> cplicated. and mti-layered as we saw the other day en 30 members of congress leading memrs of congress wt to the white house to discu this with the president. you ha democrats who said, we'll be with you. we think you ought to do what general mccrystal asked in terms of proding more resources, democrats said t oppote. who saidot time to send more troo here, just sending more troo down a rat hole. then you had republicans prsing hard saying new don't go what genel mccrystal is asking you'rin effect signing a prescription for failure. >>harlie: the president said yesrday, he made point th this was not hard choices between two huge differences. how are they seeing the reraints on the president d chces he makes? >> well, y know they begun to narrowhat the choices are. ed he said that congress mbers the other day not goin to widraw from afghanistan, not ing to pull outubstantial nuers of troops. eats going to basically start with the assumion that we're staying with themount of troops that 've got ther right no which is arnd ,000. then the questions do you go up tos far as general mrystal has proposed another40,000 more or less. and what the options in between. what would they actlly mean, wh kind ofmission can you frame that might not require 40,000 troopbuttill achieve some of your national security goals. >> charlie: mtha, you've gone taverages and pakistan with admirs and genals and lots of other people. is ere a developing spt between military perspectiveand a civian's perspective in washington? >> ihink there is, charlie. i have talked a number of senior officers and oths over the lastouple of days. and what they say is that they el dismied. rember, this isn't just sta mccrystal's report. this is didetraeus, this is admiral mullepeople who have beent war for eight years and they now see a president wh has been in office less than nine months lookin at a different stragy. the presidenasked the military to ce up with a strategy. in fact let me read this quote. in march the president said he wanted to execute and rource an integrated civilian military counter insurgencytrategy in afghanistathat's exactly what the milary lieves they were tasked to do. and now they are being question about that. >> charlie: and are ey -- is the question phrased between whether we shoulgo fromount irrelevantnsurgency to counter terrorism is that sim playcation of thedecision? >> that's pbably too simple. i thinkt's more comex than that. what a lotf people in the military he told me is at they see this, if he develops or acpts this sort of counter insurgency o count terrori strategy heavy in ft what they're doing is the status quo. becauswhat peter was talking about what thehite house is reaching o to reporters they reacd out to me as well today, is there talking about kistan and things have gone we there. look back in the las couple of months. what we have beenalking about, what secretary gates has been talkin about, wha the president has been talking out, is afghanistan deteriating. if he this say they'renly 100 memberof al qaedan afghanistan, why sit deteriorating. i think a lot of peoe in the military will say, if the liban's not the oblem, what aree doing there. >> charlie: do the think they can dw a distinction between the tiban andal qaeda t fear that taliba will allow al qda to grow ge eight sanctuary i taliban a in ctrol? >> i tnk the military feels that way. i thi you've heard st gates say that in rent weeks. just this week h said there was a connection, a symbiotic relationship, you'veeard secretary of state hillary clinton say e same thing they lk athat as a problem them being togeth not al qaeda separately. not the taliban separely. >> charl: before i go to jae because he's had lonr view, where are the players, peter? who isrguing what? >> well, vice president biden has been the most vocal skept of the ia sending substantial new trps to afghanisn. he's telling telling pplehat tee not argueor less tros but tha increase resources in afghanistamisses the point pakistan i the mt imrtant priority right now. on the other sid you do see military as mtha just talked about admil mullin, general petraeus and general mccrystal, somewhere in the midd to secretary gates and clinton. both of whom have been hawkish to some extent i theast, but i don't think have given fullhroated enrsements yet to the full mccrystal, if y will. >> charlie: where ijim jones? >> ihink jim jos and robbie manualhe chief oftar are more step particular call of try stall full, heavy commitment of additional troop certaiy more so than in march. >> charlie: sin both ofou are required to some of th discsion that are going in, rehing out so that thehite use reaching out to you gs, to try to express aoint of view, whe is the preside? can you te anything by s questions how he sees the circumstance? >> i think -- look, he said publiclyhat he's sptical. that is probably true not just a way of siglling to the left that he's in to their concer. he genuinely is reluctant to go with the 40,000 troop increase, that sort of size of things. the initial surge, if you wi of tops he sent earlier in the ye, 21,000, probably any president cong in would have done that. and st of default t to staunch the bleeding and g elections i afghanistan secure. but now he's really coming fe to fe with the choice of what does he want to down afghanistan. what does he want hi presidency to be about? if he makes this decision to send a substantial nber of addition troops to afghanistan he knowshat's going todefine to a largextent his presidcy. and that's aeepen ugement. the ading books about vietnam in the white house rig now, he's reathe book recently about george bundy the national security advisor from the nnedy-johnson era and ver weary of having any repeat of history. >> charlie: why is that book so important? 6. >> i think that if you listen to the lbj tapes fm that era yo hear him telling his senators, fries, that he doesn't think he can win in vietnam yet h feels compled to keep eslating and escalating because he's td that is only option he has. this whi house says, that they don't wa to make the number of troops t real issue, nt to ke the strategyhe issue firs the numbers follow with the stregy is. i think that's one of the points thait was theresident who talked about this strategy in march. it wa theresident who saide want a counter insgency strategy that, now he is rethinking this one these trp numbers comep. think peter says you don't really know wh the president is thinking. i do not think senior oicials and aides from the white hou would be reaching out to reporters today and las night if the preside was not inking along these lines. >> crlie: of restricting the number of new troops? >>f they're focusing on al qaeda sing taliban is t the threat that tells you they are not willing at this int to accept the 40,000 additional troops. >> charlie: put this context. where e presidential decision and a sense thatwe have be engage since 21n large battle are against whatever yo define it as, terrorism, jihaddism, not jusin iraq and not just in pakistan, not just afghanistan, but it'saround the world. >> well, i think that will end up defining the decision because as much as there has been a move inecent days to focus in on al qaedaather thanhe taliban, ihink also in the la 24 hours you've seen a atement made that we're not going to let afghanistan fall to the taliban. and i think what they're trying to do is set the parameters, on the one hand we're not expecting to rake afghantan in to a modern democracy, on e other hand we're not jus going to attack thalade a in pistan with the drone so, in the last 24 hours, they're trying to say, look, we've been a this for eight year we the newadministration has be handed a war that wasn't fought pperly forhe first x, seven years. it was under resourced. and these generals, is is ally important, you've on your sh had authors writing about how the e and o-star nerals inraq war didn't stand up to the civians, didn't tell donald rumsfeld and george bush youon't have enough troops. this military crd that's now pushing and resnding to t president's requestso tell him at he needs, we'reot going to make that mistake again they're saying. we're going to telwhat you you need to win. and 're going to tell you what we need to ffill your mission. and we're not going to sar coat it with low numbers. that creates this moment and i think it is an iortant moment, because i thk what the presidt has done really well is make sure every base is touched in thisebate to have all those meers of congress, 30 of them trooping in tthe white use for a meeting about a a war is a pretty rarehing, athis stage. he's trying to make su that whatever decision he makeshe mamizes the chances that the countrstays with him. because it's staying por that's going to determine t ouomeere. and secrety gates sa someing very important that martha alluded to, which is, if the extmists, whether yall them al eda,aliban, muim extremists, whatever, thin they can beat anoer super powe the way they defea the soviet union in afghanistan, tt will be a big victory in this grand war ainst islamicextremism. th will have a recruiting tool a propaganda argume,today even as president's advisors are saying wre going to focus on al qaeda, also saying we're not ing to let the call pan come back to powe and take ove the country ain. we're not gog to give them that big second feat of the super por. >> charlie: ty think they can do that? >> that is the hard part. how do you cuthis fine enough sohat you don need 40,000 new oops or perhaps more that might be in this document. t you defeathe taliban, i thk the part ofhis that they'rgoing to come out emphasizing is that along with the troops is going to have t come work on the civiln side, goin to to have come help from our allys, y're going to have put this all together sohat there's no tak over of everything by the liban. >> crlie: speakg of that -- go ahead. >> no taking over of afghanistan by taliban but we're not expectg to do all this by ourselves because the co is intense. >> crlie: why are the allies not responding? especiallyfter thi president has come t them sd, i'm spking a different language, i have dferent goals, i am a committed to worng with you on prlems around the world. like it fell on deaf ears. >> verging on a scandal in u.s.-european relation, is at we have presidentbama sponding to allied concerns about u.s. policy across the board. clate change, intertional law, treaties, all of the things that they wanted to see in ameran president do, come to the u.n. put global responsibilities, n more unileralism, then a nato missio a yet germany, sond biggest country in nato really not doing very much in afghanistan. there's billions of llars woh ofivilian prrams, police programs, things they can do short of sending troops. ihink it's time for the european alls, i think the admistration is going to have tongage in seriou diplomatic push to get it, time for em to contributeto this nato mison. if nato fails is bad for everybody. >> charlie: martha d peter, put the context nation buildingn to all of this mix because general mccrystal in the report tha was leaked by b woodwardor got h hand on was printe made the poi that he said this is urgent, that we've goa year, if we don't do someing within a year the taliban are on the acene dense, also sd it was goingo require a signicant amnt of nation building, of getting the afghs involved and hing governnt that could lp deal with the problem tre. my nse -- go ahead,eter. >> that's what's the rl issuehe. what has changedince march is we've had these afghanistan elecons in august that were widely marred by fraud and undersco the lack of legitimacy of the currt government probly the future governmentafghanistan. so obama team looking at thi saying, hocan we do naon building, how can we d this improvement governance, infrasucture and even training without reliable partner that has the tst and credibility with the afghanistan population self. now, the didn't have any illusions about hamid karzai, perhs they should have anticipatethis would be the result much the election tt happed in august. but right now that is where they're . election is still uettled haven't even decide who'd is going to win necessarily, they understa that probably kaai will be stillhere and they have to figu out what to do about that >> charlie: martha? >>ne of the thingshat people forgets that tundamental core of a counter iurgency campaign to try to win the ople over to youride. whether that's through nation building, whether it'shrough the economy, you wanthose people to side with y for very practical asons. you wa them to help you, y want them to help you with inlligence and finding alaeda. you don't nt them to side with the taliban, you don't wantthem to be so afraid of the taliban that they ll side with them. and right now what's haening in afghanian and what many people worry about is you have the fence tters. wealked about aot in iraq as well. the ople are saying, well, i dot know, which side shod i go to? is it the taliban in contr is the u.s. forces who are going to help me. that's why ts is such a crical period that people are really lking at theu.s. and they're saying, are they ing to help us? are they going to commit enoh troops thathis general says it will take to succeed in afghanistan. >> charlie: so, the president faces a decision in which the response on the part of the afghan people andther influential players mighbe ey're not in it for the long run so therefore, i'm n going to take a risk and side with them >> right. this is a huge risk, crlie. thisoesn't goaway. this is not like healtare you don't win the healthcar debate armaybe it goes away. this war is going to go on day after day after day. so he not only riskss a rt with the military, he is ing to he to watch what happens afghanistan every sgle day afr th. and it start deriorating en more, then they'ren trouble. >> and equally there'sanother dience. the whithouse is correctly focused onthe existee of real al qaeda terrists in pakistan. and pakistan's leadership is oughted yes, sir he. they have long feed, at least they sayhey have long feared that the united states will leave afghanisn in the ledge agn as happened after the fall communi. and thushey will have to deal with the talan and so they ne to have ties tohem, they need to work with em. justn the las few months we finally after many years of hard work turned t taliban -- sorry, turned the pakistan government around to theoint where they are actually cracking wn inerious way, enbeiged in painfumilitary exercises against the extremist in their country. we have convince them that 're in this for the lonhaul so they n can stay on the pat because everyone agrs as pakistan goes, s goes the future of the war on terrorism and fraly, nonprolifation and otr crucial issues. everything the pakisnis lieve and be convind i think is a crual testf whether any w policy can worknd that's why i think you' seen in the last 24 hours, statementslike, no, we're microsoft going to l the taliban come bk to power and toy ove we may he to work with some of them they maye part of power sharing agreement, fine. bu notetting everything fall again isomething that's crucial toeep the pakisnis who are finally doinghe right ing on side. >> charlie: peter, what is the ti -- yes,o ahead. >> look how complicated ts s. as we've just talked abouthe pakisti government working in tandem with american forces the tribal areas,yet jus this week as bilsits on president obama's desk that he suppord to authorize basilly 7.5 billn dollars for pakistan over t next five years, the pakistanis are complaining about it because it comes in their viewith strings, bause the bill reqres secretar of state to evaluate how pakistanis dog with civilian control over e military or how it's doing in fighting extremists this is a threat to thei national fer tee. a very complicated picre, nothing iseasy. >> crlie: peter, martha, thank you. thank you jas. >> thank you. >> charlie: we'll be right back talk the commissioner of national football league. the coissioner ever the tional football leagu 27 years o he began as unpaid intern under former comssioner pete r sell. in007 business week named him thmost powerfuperson in sports. since taking or for paul tagliabeau rocker instituted range of policies including pansion of the nfl brand abroad. i am pleed to have him here at this table. at long lastor the first tim >> great to be with you, charlie. i got that hint. >>harlie: great to have you he. give me an sessment of proceed ckal football and the nfl at is moment. >> well, we'r doing terrific. when you take all measures, ratings, attendance, you see the fans are mor engaged with football than they ha ever been. and at's terric. it doesn't mean thate don't have our challenges the game of football has never been more popular the nfl is rely has that brandnd that integrity that wre so proud of. >> chaie: what are its internatiol positivesbilities? >> we think they're tremendous. we play regur season games over inlondon, this will be our ird year. it sold out in matter of hours. the fans in the u.k. have shown tremendous enthusiasm for the game. both in attendan, of watchg onelevision and other ws of engaging witour game. we're tually looking atthe idea of expanding our on game a year sers to tw games aear as early asnextear. an i think if t bareters ntinue to be trend in positive way, the fs ctinue to develop, it's possle they cod have an nfl franchissome day. >> charlie: the qstion would people turn out on sustained bas, secondly not only to generate ses, people in the seats but al television. >> right. bottom line iswe want to fill our stadiums,e want to broaden our audience through television and now th new technology ves us way to reach our fs more directly. >> charlie: the nb has done ve good job of that. >> yes. >>harlie: internationally. it's a very popularsport. >> bketball is very popular game worldwide. as socc is. football is no played aroun thglobe as either one of tho sports are. buthat doesn'tmean there's not popularityand interest in our game. in fact found exactl the opposi theyove to watch i they love to follow it. we are now expanding onur efforts to bring the game to them moreirectly. the technology h been great valu in doing that. >> charlie: what you need change? what's yourission? >> t thing that we always focus on is the game. making se that our game stays strong. >> charlie: integrity of game. >> the competiveness ever the game. when you've strongroduct it gives you the ability to so much more. the secd piece would how we contin to make our 32 teams suessful. how do w allow them t operate in way where they continue to vest in thegame, grow the game that's good for erybody. players, coaches, nfl and owners. e third would be, how do we use innovation can we use innovation to expand our gam allow our fans to expeence nfl footballhe way they have neve experienced it before. >> charlie: mhael vick. te me how that process work how yomade the decision and what took place. >> well, we did an awful lot of work it. i spent probably fiveours wit michael in an initial hearing back in july. i spent anawful lot of time talking to pple that had a interest and people wh didn't haven interest. >> crlie: what was your curiity? >> my curiosity, where is michael at this poin in te? through thinks expience where is h in the -- a the point where, what kind of human being did want to be goingorward? iasn't worried about him re football pyer in the five urs i spent with him i did n spk to him onceabout football. it was about where he wa in his process -- >> charlie: you knew he would me back and play football. i don't know th. that's n a judgment that i need to make. it's a judgment t teams had t make. that's not my responsibility. my responsibility is, had he learned from h experien, had he committed himself t making better decisions going forward. andcould he representhe nfl way that was posite. rand i belve he has. i believe that he deserved the right to pve to peop that he had learn from his experience. >> charlie: what test? >> a step proces once i hadeen able to make my determinatn about where he was, i spoke to an aul lot of ople inside and outde of football, leader in all areas. >> charlie: what wod you ask them? >> how do you know somebody's changed? how do you kw someone who has thugh an experience ever being in jailor two yrs has learned a lesson some of those peoe were jim brown as annexal plwho works with ex-con vision. and tryinto undersnd what a personoes throu. what ds person needto continue to be successfu d i've said freently, charlie, wneed success stories in our society. and i hopmichael vick will be that. we have tried to give him a process that will increase h ance of being successful. not only on ftball field but off the footll field. >> charlie: ow does he explain what he did? well, it's a long process. in going throughthat i snt an awful lot of time asking that. he recognizes the mistake he made he doesn't offer any excuses. one of t mostevealing moments to me washen i asked him, how did you tellyour children. >> charlie: what did he say >> it was ve difficult f him. en i realized that thi young man had true rerse and that he realized that he haddon something that embarrassed himself, his family and let's face it it was horrific. peopleave difficulty getting eir arms aroun the acts that he w involved with. peopleelieve in second chanc ifeople admitheir mistakes try to move on and be a posite influence. hopefully be some sitive things >> charlie: it an american story, the rise, fall, rise again. what changing about the game? the athles faster, smarter, tougher? l that. >> i thi all of that i think the rules continue to -- charlie.the rules every year, beuse there are different trends in our game. the athletes come, they are better trained, e way they play t game on theollege lel may influence the way young men play the game. coaching is obviously develope eqpment's development, technogy's developed. l of these things influence the game, wonitor each aspt our game to maktheir that it ctinues to be competitive, and eertaining, fast paced, becae we know the ople are more demanding nowof what the spend their time wh and entertaient. biggest thinwe try to do make sure that we keephat emotional connection between o teams and the fs. that's critical for . >> why is that hard? >>ecause it's so sy to brea that bd. team doesn't perform well, they are disappointedn anhing that can happen with the team. >> charlie: telle more out that. what it is that sports gives a community, gives us all as soone who is a huge spts fan as you know. >> i like to think of it, nothing brin aommunity tother like the nfl. it brings everody together, not on physically on weends to be le to, whether you ce to stadium or wther you go to a restaurantwhether you sit me, you bring friends and family togetheto be able to enjoy an afterno. you get awayrom your troles. buyou all have th one thing in common for that one afternoon of pulling everyone together, pulling diverse community together sing we're all rooting fothe same thing. the detroit lions today. and we nd to see the detroit lions win and takeride in th fact -- >> chlie: city need mething to believe in. >> they do. we believe the lions think all 32 of our teams gi our communities th opportunity. >> crlie: and why football rather than say basketll? or hockey? >> we think football is a tremendous game. i think the build up that exists, fit off it's on a sunday. >> charlie: a day off. >> you have a weekuild up, sundays ardays when familie artogether and friends are tother. and they spend their afternoons together they go -- they' going to the stadium, go all day long they tailgate, watch the game, snd time with their fily and friends after wards. we tnk that's a trendous benefit. >> charlie: college ftball is strong. coege basketball is strong. they onlspend a yearefore they move on. >> that's a tremendous thing. football, they spend three or ur years at the college lel, we think the more they stay at thcollege level the betterfor e young men,mostmportantly. better for the college -- >> charlie: their own maturation. >> any time someone can be exposed to formal education process they're to be better equipped to deal with life that's whawe're really interested in. these young men come play football f great ceer ten yes. they have the st of their life to deal with. and the better prepared ey are to deal whthat, the bter we are as a league. >>harlie: what does the league, how doeshe league ke care of its former players? >> something we' really focuseon. becauswe can do a better job thane've done, chaie. we'r focused on pension, we're focused on medical benefit one ofhe thingswe did with the nfl pa and with a group of nfl alum, hall of me that deal with our retired players, is to try to determine what we can in the medical areas. we know that our players are more subject to feelinghe aches an pains after lengthy athletic careere've done a joint replacement program. where we'll pay for that joint replacement. >> crlie: if i play in the nfl need new kneesou pay for em? >> go to the finest hospital in e country and pay for it. and we do that with joint replacemt, cardiovascular screening, now cancer screengs. wee trying toddress the needs that we think our player ha. >> charlie: wt are the issuesnhe new collecte bargaini? >> how we connue to have a model that will low our game to grow. the one thing that changed since our collective bargaing agreement started ck in '9 we're investing more private money in to stadiums. not only do you ve the build those stadiums wre budding o across the river heren new york that will be probably $1.7 or 1.8 blion dollars. >> charlie: what did texas st? >> about.1 billion. most that ve is with private money. new yo it's all private money. and that's a challenge. en you have to operate these stadiums. then youave to make capital improvents to keep the stadiums up. that a trendous ex experience that weidn't have ev ten, 15 years ag and it's a change in our econics. we have to dl with in our collective barining agreemt ani'm hopeful thatwe'll do that in positive way >> charlie what are t annual revenues from television to the nfl? about $4 billion rightow. >> charl: a nice start. >> a nice round numberyes. >> charlie what impact you have on that coverage? >> well, we he great partners to start with. we have the sports networks obviously with espn, we have cbs, we hav fox, w have nbc. all them have leevolutions inhe way you watch television hi-d is great thing for us for football. peop don't even want to go back wat in sndard definition. charlie: or tennis any other sport. >> absolutely. a terrific -- but als everytng from camer angles to the way they present our game, we're just thrillewe have the kind of focus and attention art per ps that we have to prese our gas. >> charlie: h many nights is otball on? >> nfl football we're on suays and mondays and then we have late season package with the nfl twork thursday nights primarily some saturday games. late in the season after college football is over. >> charlie: you wouldn' have friday nig because of high school games or what? >> yes. even during college and high school season weon't conflict with them. we believe that game istronger by having great high school foball and great college football. we don play inonflict with any of tse levels. we won't do that until their season is over tt's why you don't see saturday games until afr college football is er. >> charlie: what are y worried about >> we're stggling to make sure that we' dealing responsibly with the economy. we're like everyther business, we're not mune from what is going onment our fans are hurting. our partners are hurting. and we he to work harder, we have to be more creative and we ve to extend ourselves more than we ever have before. >> charlie: drugs? how big a problem foryou? >>t's a constant challenge. both in performanc enhanci side and street drug side. the performan enhanng has got ena lot of focus recently. and ghtfully so. we have to make sure that our game h in together dwri tee. >> charlie: do you ne to be tougher? >> we have been quitetough. we led the way in professional sports and -- >> charlie: testing. >> we had programver 20 yea that we established with our players associatis. we conduct over 14,000 test sacks year on our players so they -- we taket serious, teing is one element. the great thing about it is, while ian't tell you that there isn'anybody that is taki performance enhanng drugs, you will t caug if you're taking them in thefl because of our testing. >> charlie: n question in your mind? >> no question. eventually y'll get caught. >> charli how many yes have y spent with the nfl? how manyid i say? >> it's my 28th season i had one year in the eel industry out of college, yes. >> charlie: th became the >> became intern. charlie: what makes a great commissioner. pete rozell set the standard. >> i'v been fornate i've said many times i've worked for the o greatest commissioners in sports, te and paul tagliabeau. i was able to learn from tm. i've often sai nobody gets where theyre alone. youhave to have great influences. and one of the things both of those mentaught me wa that it's not abo commissione. it's about the game. the ople don't watch football to watch a commissioner. they watch to se the players and the coaches. d we have to get out of the way and let our fans enjoy the game make sure we're doi everything we can to bring me football to our fans and to do it in way where they ca know there is in trek grey tee, credibility. worth theitime and effortto follow >> charlie: on nday are you in t stands or at he watching lots of games? >> a little b of bh. i go to games -- >> charlie: when you have time? >> i go thr out of four weeks i probab go to a game. >> charlie: thr out of four, four weeks yoll go three time >> i takeeekend off every once awhile. i s at me withmy wife lis to refer to as thean cave just watch football with my twin daughter >> charlie: whadoes t man cave look like? >> iave three games up on the wa, i have three games going on in the red zone channel from switchesrom ga to game. >> charlie: it is amazing what tevision has done in t coverage of athletics. the quality of the tevision, the quality of the corage, number three, how the technology just continues to get better. >> well, that's what we find so exciting. is thatechnology is allowing us to bring the game to fan in different ways. they don't jt watch on television now our kids are tching on the computer screen,heir watching the telephones, ande're able to take that tremendous content of ourames and deliver to fans in unique ways. that just gives them chce to get deeper invoed with the nfl. thisoesn't mean just games, in ouoff season we ve what they callhe combine. where we bring the top colge playerin to be evaluated and preparion for the draft. people watch that record numbs. the draft had million pele thisear watching. in the middle of nba and nhl. >> charlie: on't count me as one of those. >> i will next year. >> chlie: going too far. great to have you re. >> greato be with you, charlie. >> roger goodell commissioner of the national ftball league. mitcdaniels is here as director of the offersf manageme and buet under george w. bu, earned the nicknameitch "the knife" for spding proceed potion al. the firs republican governor of diana in 16 years and this past novembehe was elected to his second term defeating decratic opponent with 18 pot margin. hi success during piod of republican struggle attracted owing interest beyond state' borders, his hometown paper recely wrote that the natial media starting to discoveour governor. i am pleased to have man that i have known f along ti,n washington a now i'm visiting ourity from indianapolis, governor mitch diels of indiana, welco. >> thanks, charlie. somebody cancel you? >> no. we wanted you he for a long time. >> for whateverprompted it i'm ad. >> charlie: am, too. i first want t do thisuch to talk about. a kind of view fr the hetland. how do youee the economic revery from your perch? >> it's uncertain. it's slow, i hope i'm wrong about this but i think that we don't yet s t evidence of so-callev-shaped or any sort of rapid come back. it hit us very suddenly in indiana,e were at full ployment in april, may ofast year but we are a stronghold of manufacturing,till one ofhe most manufacturing intensive states in america. so when tt all stopped when auto sales plummetev sales stoppedold, people needed less steeand so forth hi us very suddly. i think we'lbe awhile coming back. >> crlie: how long do you think it will take? >> well, again, i hope to be provenrong but i susct that this will be gradual. you asked how we look at it, in honesty don't see much that's being done nationay. other an appently scessful monetary poly so far. havingmuch impact. another thing that i think will weigon us as state government and also on the general econo ishat i think people's consumption pattns will be permanently more restrained than before. >> charlie: and saving will go up? >> savings h gone up. savis has gone from negative to plus 6%r something like that. lot that have debt repayment. but i just have sen talking to folks on the seets of our towns that millionsof people realize that we as a country, as individuals we we spending too mu, borrowing too much to do it and that that is just bad practice eve if the economy comes back around i'llbeery surprised if consumption sort of shoots back anywhere less to where it was. i think people are going -- they have learned a lesson, eye not sure abody would loan the that kd of money if they wanted to end freely again. so that may all meanthat things take awhile to come around. >> what se will be an impact on lasting or sustaining impact of this economic recession we went through? >> charlie, you know, i had assignment for two and have years to include responsibility for looking at e fedal dget. i he never beenoneto obsessbout certainly not the annual deficit. we have larger proems. but now think we're building ourselves a rely big one. d i worry about the amot of money that's been printed rently. about brinng that in off the street before it causes an inflation thatould make what we've just been through look like a in this casin this case >> charlie: whaspending policies would youisagree with? >> i disagree with t personly as citizen disagree with ovell levels of spending preceding this administratn. i did not quarrel with the idea, i certainly didn't have bett idea than president stimulus' program. thbill congress wrote dn't look lik what h hoped for, he has a lot of work in it, has a lot of mon that won't spent for a long time dn't have anything to did with getting people back to workow. >> chaie: tell me 'out hethcare reform. >> disagree with t directi that'seen taken. >> crlie: with the senate financial committee? >>entire direction. i personally favor making the -- i favor tax subsidyor healthre. but i think ought to be individual, we oht to fre u the dividuals to d it i'd take it out of the whole employment context. it's not a popular position. i would i tnk what we do now is inequitable, favors th wealthy over the ls wealthy. i think it leads to over consumption. people feel liket's free. give m tha second test. >> charlie: as i said you're in the heartland, you are out there, don't people like medicare? yes. i think they like security of medicare. t there are other wa to deliver. that secity can be provided in other ways. charlie,e've brought a lo of people under -- wh were previously uninsured in a syem we created in our state amounts to personalccounts or health saving accounts. it is doing what i thi we all want t do, protecting a securing peoplagainst economic disaster but it is first all,giving them the digni and frdom to make the fst dollar choices themselves and i trusteople to become good coumers, if you ve them the abili todo that. i are, i think we alldo total discontent with the status quo in healthcare. iish that the diction of policy were not as i see it, simplyement status quo in place ke it a lot more exnsive. it certainly g bless the present and the folks wking on ts bill if ty can find wahonestly to honor his commitment thait won'tdd to the defit. i think at's going be excruciatingly hard n impossible to do. >> charlie: are you going to run forresident? >> no, i am not. >> charlie: yo sure? >> i have painted myself in pretty wel >> charlie: you kw national politics, you have national name. >> maybe i kno it enough to know it isn't aooddea. unow, people keep asking, i finally -- >> crlie: ask because you're a success story in indian >> we think india is a success story. chare, i thinkhat it distills down to maybe this. i would say, duty, family d practicaty. duty thing real important just sad to be rehired for a four-year job. i feel duty bound to do it. no the twalk off. you know how the process works. but people r for presint alst have to start now. and that would be wro to do. secondly, this is not good for families, uldn't be goodor mine. i don't think five women want any parts of it. i'm out voted. >> crlie: your wife and four daughters. let's talk about theepublican party. wheris it today? >> it's in a bad place today. but not going stay there long. i tell everybody on our team that has been in a fk about this. cheer up. the system demands equibrium. we've been pronocing last ris over one party or the other intermittentlfor a long time. it hn't happened. i don't think it likely here. i think faster than i would have suspecd there's some equilibrium ems to b-- >> charl: why is that? a little over reach on the part of the newly elected administration. what i once called thehock and awe statismattempt to really take or entir huge sectors of the economy, grsly -- >> chaie: basically as you know the presidentays we're not doing this because ecomic crisis, or philosophy of government or that wwant to create someiant state intersection in >> what people see, where i live is simy the inten-- >> charlie: hea presence of gornment. fit was cessary, i'm askingf it was necessaryor those steps to be taken in order to save them fromome worst ecomic disaer. i assume peoe of indiana would say, if you haveo do it, do it. well, that's what i base like have said, but -- and if a year or two from now theyave lived up tohat, they ha unwound itif they're n running -- >> that's the queson. >> thentire housing sector, automobi sector, they're going to run the studentoan sector. come what may, who kno about healthcare. if in fact the have pulled way back from that things may look different. >> charlie: what do y approve of of the obama administration? their education policies. i think what the president has said and done there, his secretarof educatn -- >> charl: you likerne duncan? >> i do. >> crlie: from aeighbor city there. >> maybe that's part. we td to speak plainly where i come from. whenrnie duncan says we're lyg to our children and they're not. he's telling the truth and they need to be suppoed in their polies there. i think they're extremely good. i tell you something i le a lot about esident obama. that's the way he, at least as far i can tell conduct his mily life. very important example, ihink for any president to ste up, this president in paicular. maybe not tooany other people noti that. but i think tt is very positive statementvery day the way he and mrs. obama take care the kids. >> charlie: we all look at polls and see whe trends are all that kind of stuff. there are two ings, clearly approval declid a little bit. but in many ses his approval is song even though people disagree wh hispolicies. >>eah. >> charl: ronaldeagan had a bit that have, o. >> well, i ink that's as it ought to be. i mean, pple i think are inined to make personal judgment about t charter and sincity and purpose of someo who is psident. you are exactly right about reagan i worked for him, youmight recall, people useto ask me all the time, it wouldrustrate his opponents,ook at this poll and this, they don't agree with thisolicy d -- >> chaie: iran or whever it is. >> agan -- they love the president. i'd say, they admire his fortitude and character, they know that he's making disions out ever princip not political lculation. >> crlie: you think obama has some of that? i think he has some of that. >> charlie: gre to see you >> you, too. >> charlie: governor mitch daniels, says he'sot going to run for president. butay mean in 2012. there'always 2016. then all kids wl be grown and he will ha outrown the promise he made to the indiana voters. >> i'll be on a cane and -- charlie: we can ask that question at anher time. thank you very much. >> thanks a lot, charlie. >> charlie: thank you for joining us see you knoxime. captioning sponsored by rose communicatis caioned by media access gup at wgbh acss.wgbh.org tonight, the jamestown cony. why did mo of the first selers die gruesome deaths? evidce unearthed at the site reveals signs of starvion disease and foul py. man: they're shooting each othe and a new theo of politics and pois. man: arsenic poising seemed rational to m scieists invesgate "death at jamestown" ase uncover secrets ofhe dead. [captiong sponsored by trteen/wnet new york] secrets of the dead was made possible by contrutions to your pbs stion from: ( ship's bl ringing ) narrat: in the spring of 1607- 13 years before the lgrims landed at plymth rock-- 104 british men arrived on the east coast of ameca to start a settlement and find prosperity. sailor land! land to starboard! the jamestn colony would becomehe birthplace of the united stat. but not without the grmest struggle to survive. thin a few months, neay 70 of the original settrs had suffered agonizing deas. and ov the next three years hundreds of those who came treplace them shared theame horrible fate. historians and scitists have proposed a number of explanions for the horrors that befel the early colonists t they have never fully agre on exactly what or w was to bla for the deaths. the most common theo is that the settlers dieof starvation. but graphidescriptions of other terrible ysical afflictions have ao been found in the conicles left behind the survivors... leading some to beeve that disease, t starvation, was responble. and there isore. araeological evidence from the recently rediscovered jamestown site raises interesting new questio about internal strif one skeleton exhibita dark memento of the deay infighting that plaed the colonists. and a radical new thry suggests that the ue cause of the colonistsdemise isven more far-reaching and sinister than anyone suspect. man: one can see gnificant political sruption in the learship and one can also see snificant physical disption in what may well have been sabote through poisoning event. colonist ( dramized ): holy mary, motr of god pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. am.

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