Broadcasting in collaboration with the University of Delaware w d d e Delaware source for n.p.r. News online and streaming at w d d e dot org. At the back of the church Eugene Peterson pastored for nearly 3 decades you might be likely to find copies of books by Wallace Stegner or Denise lever tough Eugene Peterson is a legendary literary feel login and biblical translator his down to earth faith hinges on a love of metaphor and a commitment to the Bible's poetry that's what keeps it alive to the world all the prophets reports and if you don't know that. You could literally everything. You are not a forest really remarkable kind of formation because of the with means what it says and what it doesn't say and so those 2 things come together and it creates an imagination which is active not trying to figure things out you're trying to enter into force there I'm Krista Tippett and this is On Being Stay with us. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington on trial Snyder Senator John McCain is being laid to rest today a private burial is set for the sacristan at the u.s. Naval Academy in Annapolis Maryland following Saturday's funeral service at Washington National Cathedral. Presidents George w. Bush him Baracoa were among those who paid tribute to McCain But it was his daughter Meghan who was the most blunt. We gather here to mourn the passing of American greatness the real thing not cheap rhetoric from men who will never come near the sacrifices she gave so willingly nor the opportunistic appropriation of those who live lives of comfort and privilege while he suffered and served to make him McCain did not mention President Trump by name but Trump was not there at the McCain family's request Saturn and Senator McCain is to be buried next to his friend in 1958 naval academy classmate Admiral Chuck Larson McCain wrote in his recent memoir that he wanted to be buried near where it began new American commander taking over in Afghanistan N.P.R.'s Tom Bowman reports General Scott Miller will be the 18th military leader as a war enters its 17th year. Much of General Miller's career was spent in the shadowy world of special operations he was on the ground in Somalia during a Blackhawk Down episode and 5 years ago he ran special operations forces in Afghanistan during his confirmation hearing Senator Elizabeth Warren pressed Miller about what he would do differently going forward over the years she said so many officials have said the u.s. Is turning a corner in Afghanistan it appears we're going in circles I can't guarantee you a timeline or an end date I know that going into this position or offer necessarily a turning point unless there's something to come back and report back that something has changed Miller replaces General John Mick Nicholson Tom Bowman n.p.r. News Washington as many as $8000000.00 people die each year because of a lack of good health care and low and middle income countries that's a new estimate in a report out from the National Academies of Sciences and is nearing in medicine and it accounts for as much as 15 percent of these deaths in those nations N.P.R.'s Mary I's amid reports the study's authors say it's imperative to come up with strategies that address the many reasons people in these countries are getting subpar care for instance 2000000000 people worldwide live in politically fragile states or conflict zones where it's hard for health workers to operate corruption is another driver contributing to wasteful spending of resources and unnecessary charges for services that ends up limiting people's access to care and in many of the countries studied more than 75 percent of the population gets their medical care from informal providers whose abilities are unclear Eisenman n.p.r. News and you're listening to n.p.r. News. Good morning for Delaware public media news in Dover I'm Tom Byrne Democrats now have a candidate for the state Senate race in the 18th District Delaware Public Media's Nick Cellino reports Milford's Jim Purcell announced his candidacy to replace the retiring Senate minority leader Gary Simpson Thursday Purcell has worked in education and public policy and was the Delaware Democratic party's executive director from 1907 to 2001 he's currently the director of business development and community relations at Dover behavioral health Purcel lists the environment economy and health care as top issues and said in a statement he is here to listen and hopefully be a voice for members of this exceptional district Purcel faces Republican State Representative Dave Wilson who announced his candidacy in February shortly after Simpson said he would not be running for a 6 term Senate District 18 includes Milford Elendil and slaughter beach the election takes place November 6th for Delaware public media I'm actually no AAA predicts the national gas price average will drop to $2.70 this fall but the lower prices may dip even further heading into the Labor Day weekend the average price for a gallon of regular in the 1st day was $0.11 below the national average of $284.00 a gallon can grant is public and government affairs manager for AAA Mid Atlantic we're seeing those prices start to level off and I'm down in the course as we switch over into the winter mix of oil which is cheaper to produce We should see those prices continue to come down Grant as other factors like relatively stable oil prices and an anticipated drop in demand post Labor Day should also push prices lower even if prices do fall or drivers will still likely be paying more at the pump than a year ago price is now $0.54 higher than it was this time last year it was a forgettable 1st game for new Delaware State University football coach Rod Mills the bills that and the hornets were blasted by the University of Buffalo 4810 in their 2018 season opener 3 d.s.u. Turnovers in the 1st half helped Buffalo rays South way 343 lead at the break and the Hornets never. Covered there as they look to rebound next week the Hornets play the 2nd of 4 in a row on the road to start the season when they visit St Francis of Pennsylvania for Delaware Public Media News and over I'm Tom for support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include the candy to fund supporting individual dignity and sustainable communities through investments in transformative leaders and ideas learn more Katie and d e d a fund dot org and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting do you need a quick update when you're on the go follow us on Twitter at w d d e 911 for the latest news of what's happening in Delaware has some glimpses behind the microphone Thanks prayers are tools not for doing or getting but for being and becoming these are words of the beloved biblical interpreter teacher and Pastor Eugene Peterson he's the author of dozens of books like answering God about praying with the songs and Christ plays in $10000.00 places jumping off a line of Gerard Manley Hopkins at the back of the church Eugene Peterson pastored for nearly 3 decades you'd be likely to find well worn copies of books by Wallace Stegner or Denise lever tough frustrated with the unimaginative way he found his congregants treating their Bibles Eugene Peterson translated the whole thing himself and that translation has sold millions of copies around the world his down to earth faith hinges on a love of metaphor and a commitment to the Bible's poetry as what keeps it alive to the world all the prophets reports. And if you don't know that he could literally eyes everything. And make shambles out of it you know a metaphor is really remarkable a kind of formation because they're both means what it says and what it doesn't say and so those 2 things come together and it creates an imagination which is as. Not trying to figure things out you're trying to enter into was there. I'm Krista Tippett and this is On Being. Peterson lives with his wife Jan at the home his father built in Lakeside Montana just outside Glacier National Park we spoke in 2016 I'd like to start by just asking you how you would start to describe the religious and spiritual background of your childhood. I grew up in a very sectarian church any council church it was a small little church in the center of town I guess I guess what I would say is it was exciting there is just. Obvious stuff going on and going to church was an adventure right now and I don't think it having to do with the Gospel that done it was a good place to be for a young person teenager. So I had a positive relationship to the church. It was not always I had it out across a good bit of it but it was easy to do it was on my parents were good parents and faithful and no I Parker see in the. That's really where and I didn't really get outside of that until I went to university right but you've written. I think you wrote somewhere that the church you grew up in was less interested in this world that was in spiritual matters but that's true but I sense that that just the Montana landscape for starters kind of formed you speak and to form your differently your own spiritual imagination differently Yeah that's true but we lived in the middle of this magnificent world but we didn't i parents didn't do much with it. But when I was a young person well young 7910 years old I was within walking distance of a range of nuns place every Saturday I used to. Boil a couple of eggs and get some bacon and ride my bike to the slope of these mountains and spend the day. Looking for Indians. Looking for arrowheads and refine any of that stuff but it was then make a difference I was well populated with imagination and yeah so I didn't ever grow up with a sense of awe of the beauty of this place and the. And how how unusual was and I didn't pretty much on my own. As you just mentioned my parents were much more interested in heaven than on Earth but it didn't seem to hurt me yeah I can find in your writing and perhaps I've missed it but where are the roots if you are in love. Well language and the care you take with it the reference you have for its poetic possibilities where did that come in for you. I think. I had a couple of teachers in high school or love language and it taught me how to write . And I think a lot of it was just kind of happenstance. I would find a poet to. Realize that. I love poets. I think I can put my finger on 11 thing we moved across town when I was about. Maybe 10 years old. And I had no friends. And I had a a Bible that I'd purchased of my own money and I started reading it because I had no friends. And somebody told me that the song was very good thing to read so I started reading the songs and I couldn't understand them cause a rock What does that mean. My tears are in your bottle which is what is going on here and. I just kind of struggled with it but people had told me it was important to read the songs and about a month into that I realized what they were and I didn't know the newer metaphor. But I write I realized what metaphors were. And. So then I was off the songs when I entered action the poetry. So you became a pastor you didn't sound like you were. Always destined for that at one point early on you thought you would be a professor but you you not only became a pastor you became kind of a pastor's pastor and in your writing has been so important to people's formation and in your most recent book you the pastor you write that you can't imagine now not having become that but even that in the residents of that word in the world reading you now as well as the world of church. Is so radically shifted changed and so that's kind of what I want to I want to talk to you about I want to kind of draw out your spiritual imagination your scriptural imagination and I want to kind I want to kind of draw you out as a public theologian because I think that all of that speaks to the world we inhabit today even a world in which a lot of the context in which you grew up and in which you formulated your ideas in your writings. Is very different. That's true. I think I became a pastor when I was in graduate school studying to be a professor. And I was in the b.m. Hebrew and Greek professor basically. And then. I got married and I went you know we moved to high plains and. It didn't pay me very much at the seminary and so. I definitely a job so I got a job. With a pastor who I respect and I really never had very high opinion of pastors to tell you the truth. To come into our town and. Fish for a couple years and go for a better better place and. You know I like them they were fun car good stories. But then there was nothing about a god that had any kind of. Connection with my life. And then I was teaching. And the 1st course I taught was the Book of Revelation right on the great place to start what I was and you know I struggled through that and then I started reading. Their appellation and totally new way I had help from one professor while he was new professor he was dead actually And but ever he wrote a book on Revelation which just transformed my imagination when I realize that John was a poet This is the 1st great poetry in the Christian faith. And I realize that then all that well the images the symbols never things started to fit I still could tried to literalize them and began to see what was going on and then that now I was in New York City and Babylon. Had right so I finally found myself living in a world of riches outside the classroom and there were divorces and suicides and runaway kids and. It was just never knew what was going to happen on any day of the week except Tuesday and Thursday when I told my classes had so you know what you said a minute ago about. The poetry and you you you have actually also you are a writer but also a translator the message of your translation of the Bible is revered by so many peoples different kinds of people from bondo who recently interviewed you to you know one of which one of our producers Lily actually who's there whose father was a pastor and she don't write and from Columbia and used the message with his congregation of people his 1st language was not English but what you said a minute ago about the poetry of the text is even in many of the translations many of us grew up with not evident and without that being evident even sometimes in the way it was laid out on the page and this is so clear in the way you write about this the language we then without that context we couldn't it wasn't possible to read it it's true to understand it to inhabit it. All and all the prophets reports. If you don't know that. You could literally as everything. Make shambles out of it talk about what difference that makes even to 21st century people reading the prophets or having an imagination about prophets what difference does it make to know that they were poets. Really means you learn what the meaning of metaphor is. And. That you know metaphor is it's really remarkable a kind of formation because of both means what it says and what it doesn't say and so those 2 things come together and it creates an imagination which is active not trying to figure things out you're trying to enter into words there. I'm Krista Tippett and this is On Being today I'm with the beloved pastor and imaginative theological writer Eugene Peterson his translation of the Bible the message has sold millions of copies around the world to give a flavor Here's how he renders a well known verse in the Gospel book of John the King James version reads and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begun of the Father full of grace and truth Eugene Peterson translates the word became flesh and blood and moved into the neighborhood we saw the glory with our own eyes the one of a kind of glory like father like son generous inside and out true from start to finish. One thing is we wrote about poetry as it now does read that's it's wonderful language poets tell us what our eyes blurred with too much of cocking in our ears adult with too much to chatter miss around in with them as poets years words to drag us into the depths of reality itself and I really like this poetry grabs us by the jocular far from being cosmetic leg. It is intestinal. I wrote that yes you did Ok. You know I'm just I'm pressing on as a bit because I I think that really maybe even again right now in our time there's a there's an interest in the notion of prophets but I'm I'm also just I think you have a way of talking about what prophets bring us partly through their lives that that particular idea of their language that shakes us out of our regular usual categories of thinking and action. I think you're right. I think it's. Just been important for me I I would think would be important for anybody to find a few poets a greedy strike Oh Auntie. And. And then memorize them. On and you should learn to listen to the. The divine dynamics of their language and recognize things that. If you're just looking at the words. For me George Herbert has been one of those poets Gerard Manley Hopkins. Mary Oliver Yeah. I don't have a lot of them but I memorized them because and I can you know they get the music gets inside my head and I'm. Being poetry about knowing I'm writing poetry and then that helps with some of the scriptures too I know I didn't realize when I did the message I think I had a congregation of people who didn't read books and. So I started translating the Bible in their language. Knowing that I when I was doing and suddenly. They started paying attention to me in a way they never did before. And. So I think. I see I did call it poetry that I've done that they would acquit but. I think people who use language have to be pretty severe received I don't know if you want to cross this out or not but we've got a huge huge own thing going on or a country right now which is which is despises white which actually though what I see that there's a lot of the worst of what's happening in the political sphere right now though is it's kind of an extreme version of a. Of the way we've been so careless with the language right in general so I mean there was this there's this line of yours and I actually don't know can't remember where this came from but you wrote We cannot be too careful about the words we use we start out using them and they end up using us yeah I think that's true. I mean I think that's informed by your scriptural perspective but it speaks very directly to. Profane realities. I mean say some more about how words that power of words and that power of words if we don't use them carefully enough. Well the power of words when they're used well is. Is multilevel. Most words have more than one meaning. And if you reduce rewords just what you find in the newspaper. You have missed out on the whole chunk of human living. Like this for a poet helps us. He trains our minds to hear stuff we didn't hear before. And. That's was quite wonderful Was it not having children is sometimes use language in a kind of I just discover words. And they start using them in ways we never thought of doing. And. I think children in their prey schooldays have a lot to teach us about language. It's true also that as we watch our children acquire and master Ward says that power of words is very evident it is. Something you said about prayer also strikes me as. So you know it strikes me that when you talk about the power of words the importance and care with them it's not just speaking it's also about reading it's also about listening you talk about if we pray without listening we pray out of context it seems to me the same thing kind of comes through about speaking if we speak with me we speak out of context in listening also it doesn't a company a lot of our public speech now. And I think. The listening business is. Is the art of prayer they gets most neglected. And. I have people have taught me this. But one of the best teachers for me has been. Karlgaard Yes and he is just adamant about when you pray you don't ask God for things you pray. To listen. And then when you've listened you can hear God speak in now and take you in the paths you never thought about. Here propose quite a different relationship I mean you you say God speaks to us our answers our prayers. This does not make sense yet no it does it's just a it's a whole different way to entry point to thinking about what's happening in prayer to you know I even I think I think kind of a a Protestant Western Protestant approach that's been there in many churches for a while. And that's one of the things that I think I like about being a pastor. Is that working through in conversations of this kind of. Reversal of what they're used to doing. Now. The ability to make the transfer from asking to listening is really profound the when it's when you start to do it and sometimes takes some coaching some encouragement from a pastor or somebody else. But it's so freeing. I remember a conversation I had when I was a pastor I went to see a woman who was high on lonely. And. She was she had you know what they call them. Now hope that you as friends. Paper are earning caught over and you're doing working in it. And I or they call those needlepoint or something like that and they had a point but there's a Nerd Word for the thing you're holding anyway she said to me my life is just limp I don't I just need something to give me some definition and she said like this. Thing I have is it's you can stretch it out tie it in there put things starts to fit and I so I told her. Let me get you one of those and so I came back in a couple days with where they are copying the songs and I said this is it this is what you need just take one of these songs. And just let your mind stretch around it. And see what happens Carl agreed a lot of songs just 123. Whatever. And some may see what that does. In the new revised version of the Bible that many of us read in church some 22 a cry of anguish from King David against my God my God why have you for saken me where you so far from helping me from the words of my groaning in Eugene Peterson Strand's place in the message he write God God my God why did you dump me miles from nowhere doubled up with pain I call to God all the day long no answer nothing I keep at it all night tossing and turning. After a short break more with Eugene Peterson subscribed on being an apple pod cast to listen again and discover produced and an edited versions of everything we make support for and being with Krista Tippett comes from the Fetzer Institute helping build the spiritual foundation for a loving world learn more at Fetzer dot org. The Moller probe the enthusiasm gap primary winners and losers lots of talk of November tealeaves while other elections are happening close to home in Florida the mother of a Parkland shooting victim wins a seat on the school board I needed to have to have a voice to have a vote like you know what I can do this and that conversation and the latest news on Weekend Edition from n.p.r. News. This morning at 8 o'clock on w d t e Delaware public media as the Senate prepares to consider the latest Supreme Court nomination a longtime court watcher argues the justices have vastly overstepped their authority in recent decades and he says that's unlikely to change it's going to be the liberals preaching judicial deference and additional restraint and of course they are they all the votes author David Kaplan on his new book The most dangerous branch that's next time on All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. This evening at 5 on 91 point one w. D.d.e. From Delaware Public Media. I'm Krista Tippett and this is On Being today I'm with a legendary pastor and theological writer Eugene Peterson his literary biblical imagination has formed generations of pastors teachers and lay seekers you say that the songs train ass and the conversation with God that is prayer Yeah how what is your practice of I mean so that there is this traditional practice in Christianity of praying the songs just praying through the songs and it's that it's what the monastics to do to you have that kind of have you had that kind of practice in your life or how do you work with the Psalms interpersonal the spiritual life. Oh it's so hard to talk about you know like that I guess as a so much goes into it yeah for years I have the 1st thing in the morning. Everybody an hour just quiet in the coffee. And on. But I picked 7 songs that I thought were kind of covered the waterfront of what's going on. And I memorized them. And I've got a pretty long song so. I don't have to work at it and saw on Sunday I do song. 92 which is. A song for the Sabbath and then I go to song $68.00 which is kind of a I it's a. It's a collection of pieces of songs from different kind of settings and when you read through the whole thing has a pretty long song you realized all these things kind of fit together if you're paying attention when you say all these things you mean all the all the different moves the different moves that it's all makes from. Praise to fury to Doesn't relation to the way you mean that right right there not logically connected Yeah but there with an imagination they start to fit together. As for me I mean. And then song it Tina's is a song just full of metaphor and just you're just overwhelmed by all the ways in which you can really imagine God working in your life. And on and just I did 7 of those and I've been doing that for years. So then you want to know the whole story yeah and I shut up. And I just. Breathe deeply and for another 152025 minutes just. Try to empty myself that everything. But there's enough going on through that 1st entry that it seeps into your imagination and so you're you're not really just emptying yourself you're emptying yourself of a certain amount of clutter so that the words you really need to know for and if it isn't I don't think it's a very good idea to give people a pattern to work with and prayer oh we're on a little bit different. And. I did that myself I just figured out what I seem possible to do and I did it on but. When I was a pastor. I would just spend time with people thinking I want to do helping them find their whatever they're much there are 7 Psalms might be Oh that's right there are the equivalent You know one of the words that some Porton to you. Is honesty but the Psalms train us in honest prayer Yeah immerse us as you say in the stream of life as it is wet and wild and I think you know your books and maybe especially answering up but not just answering God have been part of the training of seminarians and theologians for a few generations here and I think you know one of the things you you talk about is the honesty of the songs that bringing every possible human. Everything Hammon before God which even lectionary us I mean even official Christian texts have often shied away from or edited out you know the cursing the impact Tori Psalm. The the beautiful song that we all know of with can sing by the waters of Babylon there we sat down and wept but that also has a moment where it says Happy Shelby he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks that's right but for you that honesty about the human condition is absolutely at the heart of. What is necessary about the Psalms. It is then you get permission to do that except you have something that's in the Bible since speired it's been practiced dealt with by people for thousands of years. I was in conversation with Bono just 2 months ago. And he was talking about we were talking about the song Listen. And he says Oh what do you do when you get angry much I'm not Cordie And I said you can learn how to cuss without cussing. And I think that's what the song like the waters of Babylon we sat down and wept. We are there I've ways in which you can fix express your anger in a context which doesn't become mean. And I think that's what the songs are always done not just the songs but the stories you know the biblical stories yeah. I know that you will be aware of this too that at this particular moment in history there is some sense that. That these kinds of passages and imagery in the Bible are part of what is dangerous about the Bible in the world I think you you know here's something you say I think you have a more sophisticated way of talking about what's going on and what it is meant to work and us I mean you you wrote it's easy to be honest before God with our how Louis is somewhat more difficult with our hurts nearly impossible to be honest before God in the dark emotions of our hate talk about what is redemptive and actually good for the world and people being able to bring the dark emotions of their hates before God. Well I think people should be made to be given permission to do it to find a language of hate disappointment retaliation. And get on out there people who are every press all those emotions often gets sick depressed learning the other we suppress our fears. Discomfort our hate he well oh so often very freeing. So is it your sense that if people can bring that before God. It's less dangerous as something that's in the world oh yes oh much less. And that's just kind of one of the mysterious things about. Human beings in the world isn't it the mystery of us yes. That's where art comes into. The hardest can sometimes bring out these feelings perceptions. And we we don't know how to do it ourselves. And. It's very good artists they know what they're doing they're honest. They can be a great help. You know you wrote in in the past or your new memoir I think you spoke to the phenomenon I'm talking about which you know we're talking about how the songs of the Hebrew Bible bring every human aspect into the light even the worst yes. And so that is a way of so one thing you have to talk about crowds and you said Classically there are 3 ways in which humans try to find transcendence through the ecstasy about the Holland drugs I mean chemically induced transcendence and recreational sex and through the ecstasy of crowds and he said church leaders frequently warn against the drugs and the sex but at least in America almost never against the crowds and there's something about the moment we inhabit I think even globally that that feels very resonant and psychologically astute I think it's true but the poets and the writers they use writing as a way of conveying truth rather than just is there to many people. I used to when I was you know someone the pastor I just used to get a pile of books. In the same book like 10 or 20 or 30 books and buy them and put them in the narthex and ask people to pick it up and read it and there are some really great Christian writers you really keep you burrowed into the reality of your life the worlds life. Who would be in that pile Well Charles Charles Dickens is one. And I think I read all his books 3 or 4 times on yeah and most people would not think of Charles Dickens as Christian reading. That's true but yes I mean that's it's Christian reading if there was one let's say some more well if he enters into the life of these poor people and are bad people and stupid people and makes them come alive and you are never going to do that you think and then you do and then you know you did it. Wallace Stegner I think is one of the one of our most healthy early novelists. And. My wife and I have. We are we are going in the evenings we read a book aloud and I guess we read stickers books aloud. 5 or 10 times you know again I don't know that people would think of that as a book that would be in the back of a church. And. Have now. Oh this is a huge question so I'm just going ask it Al you would start to answer it you know what. At this stage in a life like what continues to perplex you what do you not have answers for that you would like to have more answers for what has surprised you even as you've moved through anger and forgiveness and sadness and the things that go wrong in a human life. Well you know I don't yet I'm 83 years old now and one of the things that sign. Is surprise me is. The lack of questions I have now. It's kind of like I've just entered into a world war I'm. Everything is going. Not the way I thought it would go but the way it makes sense. I am I forget things a lot and misplace things and I used to get angry with myself. I don't anymore this is a this is the way a lot of the world is living you just enjoy it. So you got to go look for your keys for half a dozen times before you find them. And having a family helps you know I've got 3 children and grandchildren and. I. Let that put you in a in a context where you know a lot a lot to be appreciated and then a lot to worry about. And their worries don't crowd out the glories. But we've got to give ourselves permission to do that. I'm Krista Tippett and this is On Being today I'm with the beloved pastor and literary theological writer Eugene Peterson Here's some lines from his memoir The pastor my work has to do with God and souls immense mysteries that no one has ever seen at any time but I carry out this work in conditions place and time place but not just any place not just a location marked on a road map but on a top o. a Topographic map with named mountains and rivers identified wildflowers and forests elevation above sea level and annual rainfall I do all my work on this ground I do not levitate time but not just time in general abstracted to a geometric grid on a calendar or numbers on a clock face but with the Greeks named Kyra's pregnancy time being present to the present I never know what is coming next. But once he wrote People ask How do you mature a spiritual life and you said the one thing you do is you eliminate the word spiritual It's your life it's being Richard it's not part of you. That the word spiritual much more than when you 1st became a pastor is everywhere now and I just want to know how you hear that respond to it what you think of it. I think it's cheap. It's your turn you're taking something. Putting a mame on its spiritual which means it's defined. Oh world is spiritual. And the word spirit is wind it's breath people are breathing all over the place they're all spiritual beings. But they if you have a name for it you can compartmentalized it and that just wrecks havoc with the whole thing on. Spirituality is and that's why I don't like the word because it's so easy to just say wow he's such a spiritual person she's such a spiritual person wrong nonsense you are too. And. I guess that's where I think the church has a place I would just maybe more important than has ever been but it's. Done well there is no spirituality that you can define because it is in everything you do that's right. And if you don't recognize that that's possible you just subtract all part of your life. You have always balanced. What I'm going to inadequately call your spiritual life we're Ok with with our very robust intellectual life i love of ideas i love of the rigor of the text and the teaching. Has that then something you felt you had to balance has it been a creative tension. And you know that also makes you different than the way a lot of people live with this part of their lives and in fact are equipped people aren't really given the tools to live at this part of their lives with that wrecker . Oh I don't know I I just always loved books I always loved good books. Writers. It's not been the last minute effort for me has been a discipline. It's Minnes it's been a spirituality. There you go contradicting yourself. I wonder if you're 83. You know I think actually this last exchange just kind of pointed out that the complexity of dealing with words even though there's a precious. And I just wonder if if other words if words themselves even the word God become too small that after it 83 years of pondering grappling with the immensity of reality and who God might be. Become too small. Did does the word God feel too small to you at this point yeah what do you do about that. Pretty much. I'm very circumspect about using it you know what about the word Christianity. That's even worse. Right well say to say a little bit about that about that. Other people use the word Christianity mostly I think of a situation. And that that's hard to get rid of. You know most of us have negative influences about church search or just the experiences we've had. And so why don't we just eliminate the word. But have a recession that's hard for people like me who it is part of so called Christianity exactly I mean you. Well your life and your writing is passionately interwoven with this. This enterprise this aspiration of church that's true we're no small church. When I was a pastor of a car he gave people leave and say how do I pick a church. And my usual answer was go to the closest church where you live in the smallest. After 6 months this is not working. For the next smallest Ok so what is it about small Robin bag. Because you have to deal with people as they are and you got to learn how to love them when they're not love. And we were going to a church now which is the best material medicine Lutheran church and most of the people are my age and. I pastor is young. And he's a really good master. And I don't go to church. I go there to be immersed you know and I don't know about these people and there's 80 people in church and I don't you know I know some of them quite well I grew up with many of them. I would just listen to me like a little kid. So that's kind of refreshing. So you've written that prayer matures into the practice of memory and that's it's a wonderful sentence prayer matures into the practice of memory and I I wonder just as my final question you know is that has that been true for you and what does that look like how does that unfold and how how is your prayer changed even as you pray the same song on here after year. Oh I think the answer's easy are I think I'm praying and I don't know I'm praying it's there it's entered into my subconscious. And. So I feel I feel like. I know now I don't mean for the son who is spiritual. But it is it surprises me that I. Was something has been going on in May for years and years and years which is pretty much absorbed into my psyche now. And. It has me hope. It gives me hope because you know our politics in this country are not very. Swift right now and. And you know when I think about individuals I know. They're not discouraged they're it terminally do that do it right. And. I feel like I'm a colleague with a lot of people who. Are my companions in this business. Thank you so much for all. For having this conversation with me. So this is. The pastor of Christ our king Presbyterian Church. For 29 years he's the author of over 30 books including. The pastor. And the message the Bible in contemporary language his newest book is. Catch Fire a conversation on the formed by the words of God. On being is. My. Property. Our lovely theme music is provided and composed. And the last voice you hear singing our final credits is hip hop artist. Was created at American Public Media a funding partners include the John Templeton Foundation supporting academic research and civil dialogue on the deepest and most perplexing questions facing human kind who are we here and where are we going to learn more visit. The Fetzer Institute. Helping to build the spiritual foundation for a loving world find them at Fetzer dot org Callia pay a foundation working to create a future where universal spiritual values form the foundation of how we care for our common home Humanity United advancing human dignity at home and around the world find out more at humanity United dot org part of the group the Henry Luce foundation in support of public theology reimagined the Osprey Foundation a catalyst for empowered healthy and fulfilled lives and the Lilly Endowment and Indianapolis based private family foundation dedicated to its founders interests in religion community development and education. Being its to beat it bad p.r. Public Radio Exchange and does it Krista Tippett public production. 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