Senate Armed Services committee, republican john mccain, and democrat jack reed. Plus how the Trump Administration plans to get tougher on illegal immigration. It is fair to say that the definition of criminal has not changed. But where on the spectrum of criminality we operate has changed. Homeland security secretary is with us. You have to understand that the bible is our constitution. On this Easter Sunday, we bring together three religious leaders and ask, can we really separate religion and politics . Joining me for insight and analysis are Andrea Mitchell of nbc news, Mark Leibovich of the New York Times, former republican senator john sununu and Heather Mcgee of demos action. Welcome to sunday. Its meet the press. Announcer from nbc news in washington, the longest running Television Show in history, celebrating its 70th year, this is meet the press with chuck todd. Good sunday morning, happy easter to those celebrating. First, north korea last night launched a Ballistic Missile from its base in sinpo but it exploded on the launch pad. Vice president mike pence spoke to american troops at a breakfast there this morning. Im joined by juan zuarte. Juan, the failure, the New York Times this morning leans hard into the idea that the failure wasnt necessarily a north korean failure but maybe sabotage and possibly sabotage from the United States. What do you say . This is a Missile Program thats replete with failures. We dont know yet, it could be sabotage, it could be poor engineering, just bad luck. Thats the nature of these Missile Programs. Its been u. S. Policy to do Everything Possible to slow or even stop the development of both the missile and Nuclear Development programs, whether its the use of sanctions, potentially sabotage, and even diplomacy. We know from previous reporting, this was successful done with Irans Nuclear program, so it would be easy to assume they would try it. I think theres a playbook here. The u. S. Has it. They can use asymmetric tools, sanctions and other things to try to affect their behavior. There was a show of military force by north korea, this parade, very elaborate. It seemed to be a concern to those that follow the north korean regime that he has acquired some new missile technology. How real is it . Well, the regime is clearly trying to demonstrate its capabilities, its intent to build those missiles. This is a regime that has declared its intent to find a way of putting a Nuclear Capability on a missile that can strike the United States. That was part of the show and the parade in pyongyang. Juan zarate, well leave it there but well return to the topic in a few minutes. Call them policy reversals, flipflops, or a recognition of reality. It can be difficult to know what to make of the president and his evolving positions. While mr. Trump has held fast to some positions, immigration, businessfriendly rules, and environment, and his choice of neil gorsuch or the supreme court, on a host of other issues, mr. Trump has reversed or modified his positions from the campaign. Theres nothing wrong with changing positions, but is the new president being educated in office . Is he being swayed less by nationalists in the white house like steve bannon and more by economist gary cohn and Jared Kushner . Whatever the cause, the president s policy shifts have people across the political spectrum asking, what does it all mean . I like to think of myself as a very flexible person. I dont have to have one specific way, and if the world changes, i go the same way. Reporter donald trump is wrapping up a headspinning week of policy reversals. Changing his mind on nato. Just months ago nato is obsolete. It is obsolete. Some of the smartest people have said, what trump said is genius. Its obsolete. Reporter but now . I said it was obsolete. Its no longer obsolete. Reporter and on syria, after a campaign spent promising he would stay out. If we did nothing, if we did absolutely nothing, we would be in great shape. Reporter last week, mr. Trump intervened. Tonight i ordered a targeted military strike. Reporter on economic policy, he promised to punish china. Im going to instruct my treasury secretary to label china a currency manipulator. The greatest in the world. Reporter now he tells the wall street journal theyre not currency manipulators. President xi wants to do the right thing. We had a very good bonding. Reporter the white house has struggled to explain the president s flipflops. Its those entities or individuals or in some cases those issues that are evolving toward the president s trumps. Reporter others attribute it to his onthejob training. The president is learning the job. Some of the things said during the campaign i think he now knows are simply not the way things ought to be. Reporter shaping these reversals, a growing resig iniin soninlaw Jared Kushner and economist gary cohn, and a diminishing role for his chief strategist, steve bannon, this week calling bannon just a guy who works for me. Many voters are forgiving, at least for now. I think he does see things differently, as all of us would. We just see the tip of the iceberg. Reporter but many have an uncomplicated message not trump. Republicans are struggling to define what it even means to be a trump republican, when mr. Trumps views keep changing. Im my own man. Im not going to be told by one president or another how to represent the state of arizona. And this is joining me now is the chairman of the senate Armed Services committee, john mccain of arizona, senator mccain, welcome to meet the press. Thanks, chuck, thinanks for having me back. President trump tweeted, why would i call china a currency manipulator when theyre working with us on north korea . The president s policy shouldnt have anything to do with north korea. It may be part of the overall relationship. But china is the key. China is the key. They can stop this if they want to because of their control over the north korean economy. And by the way, i would point out, and i know this will come up later on, but there are artillery on the border between north and south korea that can reach seoul. And we cant take them all out before this is very this may be the first test of this presidency. But china can shut them down. And we should be whether theyre currency manipulators or not, we should expect them to act to prevent what could be a cataclysmic event. And the North Koreans keep making progress. They had a failure yesterday. Im not sure why. Maybe its because of do you buy the sabotage thing, do you think our program is good enough to do things like that . I dont think so. But i wouldnt rule it out. But at the same time, they have made steady progress. While we have made agreement after agreement after agreement. Chuck, how many times on this show, weve said, oh, we now have a comprehensive agreement with north korea. Im not blaming trump for this. Im blaming republican and democrat president s over the last 20 years while theyve continued to make progress. Is the carrot and stick approach with china worth doing . Is using our trade practices or these conversations about currency worth having these debates in order to influence them on north korea . To prevent north korea from having a missile with a Nuclear Weapon that could strike the United States, and we would have to rely on our ability to intercept it. Im told we do have that ability. Its still awfully risky business. This is really very serious. This guy in north korea is not rational. His father and his grandfather were much more nationrational t is. When youre dealing with an irrational actor, u. S. President s will always say military options are on the table. But when north korea is irrational, are military options something you dont want to do . You never want to do that, because of the proximity of north korean artillery to seoul, a city of a half Million People. At the same time, this could be the first real test of the trump presidency. By the way, i believe that hell get very good advice from mattis and from mcmaster. Let me move on to what weve learned about President Trump and his Foreign Policy. In your hometown newspaper, the arizona republic, writing about the syria decision, it was a completely ad hoc decision, it felt like the right thing to do and trump did it, most persons agree. My guess is thats the way Foreign Policy is going to be conducted under trump, a series of ad hoc decisions based on what seems right and. Do you think hes right . Hes partially right. Theres a difference between being a candidate and the guy with the codes. Second is, hes growing and listening to wise and intelligent people. Third of all, i think he was deeply moved by those pictures of the children, who wasnt deeply moved by that . But i do believe, and i support what he did and i support the bunker buster bomb, but weve got to develop a strategy. There is still not an overall strategy that he can come to congress and his advisers and say, okay, this is how were going to handle syria, heres how were going to handle postmosul iraq. Weve got to have a strategy. And ill give them some more time, but so far that strategy is not apparent. It does seem as if even on the issue of whether assad should go, President Trump sort of stopped short of regime change. He said, look, he obviously isnt probably going to be a part of the solution, but he stopped short of that. Why . Because i dont think hes absolutely sure what he needs to do. But i would point out, of those 400,000 men, women, and children that have been slaughtered, they werent slaughtered by isis. They were slaughtered by bashar al assad. The russians used precision weapons to hit hospitals in aleppo. The war crimes are horrendous here. To just say were only after isis, in my view, rather than regime change, is something that we have to rethink. You said hes growing. Yes. In office. There are some that will say, no, the washington establishment sucked him in. I hope so. Okay. On National Security, i do believe he has assembled a strong team. And i think very appropriately, hes listening to them. Thats the area of course where im not everybody thinks the washington consensus on Foreign Policy has worked over the last 25 years. And it hasnt, and youre right, it hasnt. But it wasnt because of the people around him now. In fact, if previous president s look, for eight years we basically did nothing in response to some of the most horrendous war crimes in history. At least he did something. Now i hope that there will be a strategy to follow that up. And look, america is about a moral superiority and our willingness not to fight every fight about at least respond to horrendous acts of inhumanity and war crimes. Also, by the way, syria will continue to have the spread of al qaeda if we dont take care of bashar al assad. Senator john mccain, unfortunately i have to leave it there. Thanks for having me. Youve been on a few times. Time flies when youre having fun. There you go. Earlier this week the u. S. Military dropped the socalled mother of all bombs against aftisis fighters in afghanistan. President trump was asked if he personally authorized the action. Reporter did you authorize it, sir . Everybody knows exactly what happened. What i do is authorize my military. We have the greatest military in the world and theyve done a job as usual. We have given them total authorization and thats what theyre doing. Joining me is senator jack reed, democrat of rhode island, the Ranking Member of the senate Armed Services committee, he and senator mccain do a lot of Work Together sometimes. Welcome to the show. Thanks, chuck, very much. Let me start with north korea and get to the issue of the unpredictability aspect of President Trump. Is there an issue that north korea is an asset and not a liability . I dont think its an asset. I think you have to have a strategy. As senator mccain indicated, china is key to that strategy. Theyre the biggest trader with north korea, their trade went up, in fact, last year. Theyve indirectly provided electronics for these missiles. If china can be brought to the point where theyre putting pressure constantly on north korea, there is an opportunity, i think, to try to freeze their systems and roll them back. But it has to be a long term, deliberate, day by day strategy. One of the things about the president , hes getting good military advice from general mattis and general mcmaster, but he needs a much stronger state department. I want to ask about this, you talk about his relationship with secretary mattis, somebody who you supported his confirmation. Yes. In the opening bite there in your introduction, i noted how the president didnt sign off personally on the dropping of the socalled mother of all bombs. Right. He has given more leeway to his military leaders to make these decisions. Are you comfortable with that . Well, these authorities have been are given over the lasting several years, theyve increased. In fact when general nicholson was before the committee a few weeks ago, he indicated he was satisfied with the authority he had. And in fact i assume that this was not a new authority, this was something that he was authorized, deploying a particular weapons system. There was one comment from an anonymous official that said, look, in the Previous Administration, we wouldnt have dropped this without at least legislat alerting the white house. Are you comfortable with that change . I think there has to be communication, obviously between the white house and their field commanders, thats generally throughout the National Security council. I think in this case, though, general nicholson decided that the weapon was appropriate for the tunnel complex that they minimized, in fact there are no reports of civilian casualties. The operation i think he deemed was something that was appropriate, well within his authority. He might have informed someone, but i dont think he went out of the way to do it. Obviously anything we do in afghanistan is covered by the war authorization passed a long time ago. There is still some question whether anything we do in syria falls under that or not. Do you believe it does or doesnt . I think with the pursuit of isis in syria, that its covered by the aumf. Its an extension of the aumf. The route, as weve been extending that for many, many years now. But going after isis i think within the province of the aumf. Other actions going after assad would not fall under the aumf . No, i dont think so. I think going after assad in terms of a deliberate, concentrated effort to conduct military operations would require the authorization of congress. I think the tack that the president took, i agree with the attack, was done under his prerogative as responding to an incident, a horrible incident, the right or the ability of nations to protect vulnerable populations. But i think anything further should be considered by the congress. Is there a circumstance where you would support sending more troops to syria . I think one of the things that the president will have to do would lay out a plan, a clear plan. The ad hoc nature of what he does, the flipflops which weve seen dramatically this week suggest an incoherence in policy. Thats a function of many things. I think temperamentally as well as experientially, hes trying to come to grip with these things. He hasnt been following through with the planning process you need. He has to be able to come not just to congress but to the American People to explain in deal what hes doing. Are you comfortable with the flipflops . All of them this week were moves from outside the washington consensus to within the washington consensus, nato, how to deal with china, things like that. Does that at all comfort you . I think its recognizing in many cases the obvious, what he has to do. I think with respect to china, you know, their key role in north korea potentially cant be sort of jeopardized by going after them as currency manipulators. In fact theres some evidence by economists that theyre not doing that recently. At one time they were. But i think these things are would be more comforting if they were not sort of offthecuff, unexplained, or glibly announced, but rather the conscious deliberation and a conscious presentation by the president. One of the things hes got to recognize is growing sort of disenchantment with russia. That disenchantment has to also be reflected with serious reflection on 2016 and what they did here. They are still operating today in europe using those same disinformation techniques, et cetera, and we have elections coming up. We cant allow the russians to be part of our electoral process. Right now hes got to accept that it happened. Exactly. Thats one of the things where that would be a great improvement in his situation. Accept it happened and then move very aggressively for the good of the country to see what happened in 16 so that were prepared and protected for 18 and 20 and beyond. Senator jack reed, well leave it there, from rhode island, good to have you here. Thank you. When we come back, the Trump Administrations get tough policy on illegal immigration. If youre here illegally you should leave or be deported, put through the system. But Homeland Security chief john kelly goes on to say its a very complicated problem with no easy solutions and Congress Need but john kelly music plays throughout before fibromyalgia, i was a doer. I was active. Then the chronic, widespread pain drained my energy. My doctor said moving more helps ease fibromyalgia pain. She also prescribed lyrica. Fibromyalgia is thought to be the result of overactive nerves. Lyrica is believed to calm these nerves. Woman for some, lyrica can significantly relieve fibromyalgia pain and improve function, so i feel better. Lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. Tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. Or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or blurry vision. Common side effects are dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs and feet. Dont drink alcohol while taking lyrica. Dont drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. Those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. With less pain, i can be more active. Ask your doctor about lyrica. Welcome back. One area where President Trump clearly has not changed or softened his position is on the issue of immigration. And the man tasked with carrying out the president s policies is the new head of Homeland Security, john kelly. Well, i sat down with secretary kelly and i began by asking him if the administration is creating in effect a new large deportation force. There are a huge number as you know, of illegal aliens or undocumented individuals that have to be dealt with in one way or another. I would argue, chuck, that we have to straighten this out. And i think i place that squarely on the United States congress. Its a hugely complex series of laws and i get an awful i engage the hill quite a bit. And i get a lot of i get an earful about what i should do and what i shouldnt do. But it all comes down to the law, doesnt it . We are a nation of laws. I would hope that the congress fixes a lot of these problems. Okay. You say its on congress, but there are others who say if you enforce the law on the books. So what is the issue . Are the laws on the books hard to enforce and they need to be changed . Is that what youre saying here . Well, the laws on the books are pretty straightforward. If you here illegally you should leave or should be deported. Put through the system. But there are 11 Million People and its very complicated. There are people who came here as children. There are people who came here illegally many years ago and they have married local men and women who have children. And its a complicated problem, but the law is the law. Given but i dont have unlimited capacity to execute is it the best use of money . Is this the resources you need, you need to hire more people to deal with this issue . Is that your number one problem . I think so. The people you know, its two aspects. I. C. E. Operates more or less on the interior and, you know, through targeted actions against illegal aliens plus. What i mean by that is just because youre in the United States illegally doesnt necessarily get you targeted. Its got to be something else. Were operating on the other end of the spectrum, multiple convictions define a criminal here. Thats so it seems as if on the obama administration, there was one definition. There seems to be another definition in this administration. Is that fair to say . It is fair to say that the definition of criminal is not has not changed, but where on the spectrum of criminality we operate has changed. So can you give me an example of somebody that wasnt deported before that youre deporting now . Well, as an example, multiple duis. Even a single dui depending on other aspects would get you into the system. But remember for this wouldnt have been the case under the Previous Administration . You have to remember that theres a system a legal Justice System in place and the law deports people. Secretary kelly doesnt. I. C. E. Doesnt. Its the United States, you know, criminal Justice System or Justice System that deports people. I want to go back to the 11 million. It seems that the bigger problem youre dealing with is not the border, its visa overstays. Its a big problem. Big problem. Is that what you need you need i. C. E. Agents to do that . Is that what you need the extra resources for . All of that. Its a big problem. Its a lot of people out there that need to be taken into custody and deported according to the law. Visa overstays, quite a large number of the illegals that are in the country that are in fact visa overstays. And we do we just completed i think a targeted they just completed, i. C. E. Just completed a targeted operation going after overstays. Its timeconsuming. But at the end of the day, they came here with the promise to leave and we have to track them down. If theyre still in the country and put them in the proceedings to deport them. I guess im going at this with the money for the border wall would be better spent of going after the visa overstays and would that deal with the problem that President Trump campaigned on . You have to secure the border somehow, first and foremost. But the very, very good news, for a lot of the different reasons, the number of illegal aliens moving up from the south has dropped off precipitously. I mean, were down 65, 70 in the last two months. These are the months that we should see a steep incline in illegal movement. Its down by almost 70 . Do you think thats been the president s rhetoric on the campaign and saying, well, he won, its tougher to get across the border . Certainly. Is that contributing certainly. Some of the other things we have done on the border. Just my going down to the border on several occasions, you know that Jeff Sessions was just down there, the attention being paid to the border certainly has injected into these people and a vast majority of them are good people from Central America, but its injected enough confusion in their minds, i think, and just waiting to see what actually does happen. You as head of south com, the Southern Military command, your previous job before this, you were testifying on these issues during the time we had the surge of Central American immigration through mexico. And i remember at the time you said, hey, i stop at the essentially the guatemala border there. Your purview. But you talked about the difficulty youre trying to find partners at the time in Central America to help you with this and the u. S. Drug consumption the u. S. Drug consumers you thought as part of the problem in this. Explain. Drug consumption in the United States is the problem. Just cocaine alone, when you consider the massive amounts of profit that come out of the United States, the traffickers biggest problem is not getting drugs till now into the United States. The biggest problem they have is laundering the money. So when you have that much profit coming out of the United States and that profit is managed by cartels that are beyond violent and so you go to you go to the latin american countries, mexico, the United States for that matter, you mentioned corruption already, the kind of money they can offer an attorney general in guatemala or a police chief in mexico city, the kind of money they can offer, if you dont take the money, theyre happy to send your you know, your youngest childs head to your home in a plastic bag. You said though the hypocrisy aspect of it it is. Meaning the Central American countries, is the idea of for instance marijuana legalization, does that help your problem . Or hurt your problem . Marijuana is not a factor in the drug world. This really is a cocaine and in some cases the opioid sort of copycats . Its three things. Methamphetamine, almost all produced in mexico. Heroin, virtually all produced in mexico and cocaine that comes up from further south. Those three drugs result in the death of i think last year 52 i think 52,000 people to include opioids. 52,000 americans you cant put a price on the human misery, the costs to the United States is over 250 billion a year. The solution is not arresting a lot of users. The solution is a comprehensive Drug Demand Reduction Program in the United States that involves every man and woman of goodwill. And he went on to say that Congress Needs to be working on this. I also asked secretary kelly about the fight against isis and that mother of all bombs in afghanistan. You can hear his answer on the entire interview which is posted on the website. From syria to the fate of obamacare, what are we to make of President Trumps evolving positions . Has he been sucked into the establishment as john mccain said he hope so. And three religious lea its not an antiaging face cream. Its realizing beauty doesnt stop at my chin. Roc®s formula adapts to delicate skin areas. My fine lines here . Visibly reduced in 4 weeks. Chest, neck, and face cream from roc®. Methods, not miracles. ™ say carl, we have a question about your brokerage fees. Fees . What did you have in mind . I dont know. 4. 95 per trade . Uhhh. And i was wondering if your brokerage offers some sort of guarantee . Guarantee . Where we can get our fees and commissions back if were not happy. So can you offer me what schwab is offering . Whats with all the questions . Ask your broker if theyre offering 4. 95 online equity trades and a satisfaction guarantee. If you dont like their answer, ask again at schwab. Briathe customer app willw if be live monday. Can we at least analyze customer traffic . Can we push the offer online . Brian, i just had a quick question. Brian . Brian. Legacy technology can handcuff any company. But yes is here. Youre saying the new app will go live monday . yeah. With help from hpe, we can finally work the way we want to. With the right mix of hybrid it, everything computes. But so we dont have tormin wad to get clean. Charmin ultra soft gets you clean without the wasteful wadding. It has comfort cushions you can see that are softer. And more absorbent, and you can use up to 4 times less. Enjoy the go with charmin. Welcome back. Panelists here, former republican senator john sununu. Heather mcgee and Andrea Mitchell and Mark Leibovich from the New York Times. Who does still live in this town. Welcome all. Thank you. I want to talk about the start with sort of the week of donald trump and his evolving positions. John sununu, what do you make of it . Growing into the job maybe. On issues like nato, i think everyone knew that we werent going to pull out of nato. Everyone knew and understood that his rhetoric was in one place in the campaign and then it was going to be met with a reality. That nato serves a function, has great value, is important to our strategic alliances around the world. A lot is just the campaigner coming to the oval office and recognizing whats real, whats doable. Look, some of it on the domestic policy issues Like Exim Bank or currency manipulation is going to kick back on the trump base because they dont expect that kind of thing to happen. Heres andy sullivan, what on earth is the point of trying to understand him when theres nothing to understand . He has no guiding policy, no consistency at all. Just whatever makes him feel good about himself this second. He therefore believes what bizarre nonfact he can cook up in the addled head or what the last person said. A harsher response, andrea. I disagree. I think he likes to win and hes seen over the course of the last weeks that he wins when he listens to Jared Kushner, when he listens importantly to Henry Mcmaster and to mattis and when hes listening to the advisers and not steve bannon and now that mike flynn is gone, that is the biggest change. There is a reality check here. And hes seeing that some things work. Now, its not complete, doesnt always work. He still tweets after Angela Merkel leaves and insults germany. He so it was not just the campaign. It was also the transition and the early weeks of the presidency. But i think the Health Care Failure really influenced his decision to turn to some wiser heads. Well, a lot of talk about how bannon is out, and ivanka and jared are up. But theres not a lot of coverage of what happened this week behind closed doors. Like ivanka who is supposed to be for women didnt stop him from signing a bill that would put state level Womens Health clinics in the crosshairs. Im curious what do you make of the speculation that is a compromise. Sign that bill, but dont fight the planned parenthood bill in the budget . I do not feel any kind of relief. Its the most vulnerable working class women, thats the only Affordable Health care. Theyre in the crosshairs, and we saw him sign something that stopped the retirement accounts. The people who dont have 401 k s on the jobs who have been starting to innovate at the state and the local level, so i think its the phony populism that is the most consistent. Youre right about this. This is a killer decision, this title 10 decision, done without a press pool, no coverage. And planned parenthood says its really devastating. I would say though, the question of, yes, he loves to win, how do you define winning in the environment where theres no legislative action going on whatsoever . I mean, is winning to donald trump a bunch of good news stories or good winning news stories, the poll numbers. The contrast we have is on the National Security issues you have got good leadership in place, given some autonomy. We heard from general kelly, we talked about general mattis and mcmaster, theyre the guiding hands between the Foreign Policy activity thats been pretty widely accepted and well received recently, on the domestic side he doesnt have that same kind of quality team in place yet. Thats part of the reason that health care went down. Mcmaster, mattis, kelly, that is a win. Theyre strong people. Hes obviously listening to them domestically. Youre right. Domestically theres a cover story in the New York Times this morning about how its all lobbyists. I mean, the number of lobbyists who have been getting waivers of conflict of interest rules to go into the agencies they were just representing, big industries, to try to water down rules its astounding. The idea that that is draining the swamp is something that theyre going to be theres going accountability for. The Climate Change decision on the paris accords this week. If they back out of that, i mean, china is watching. He wants china to help on north korea. And if we embarrass and humiliate china which we dragged kicking and screaming into the Climate Change agreement lobbyists have nothing to do with this stuff. This is where he was on the campaign trail. Pull away from the regular lieti regulations, pull away from the Climate Change. This is Campaign Rhetoric being followed through and it has nothing to do with lobbyists visiting the white house this week or last week. Im going to take a quick pause and i want to does cuss a couple of things that general kelly said about imsgration when we come back. By the way, many protests yesterday and they were calling on President Trump to release the tax returns. And he noticed. And the energy is on the democratic side when it comes to the campaigns. Will it translate into votes . We may get an answer this tuesday. That conversation is next. burke at farmers, weve seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything. Even a coupe soup. 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President trump noticed the tax rallies yesterday. Hes tweeted about those this morning. I did an almost impossible thing to do for a republican easily won the electoral college. Now tax returns are brought up again . Someone who paid for the small organized rallies yesterday. The election is over. Heather, you were at one of the small, organized rallies. What were they about, who paid for them . It was fantastic. So i got to speak right after senator widen at the one here in d. C. Yesterday. Honestly my expectations were very low. There are the sort of earnest tax day, you know, kind of rallies by progressives saying we need more revenue. This was 25,000 people in d. C. Alone. 200 rallies across the country. And the message was really quite uniform. It was show us your taxes. What are you hiding . Who are you working for and then at the same time, we need Economic Justice and tax fairness. Were sick of hearing about how billionaires how little they pay in taxes. You can look at the rallies in two different ways. Maybe the general public isnt as moved on the tax return issue but the fact that the rallies can happen fairly easily now on the left tells you the energy is son the left. I think there is a little bit of energy on the left, because trump provides a great focal point for them and it is sort of the way that obama did for the conservatives. Sure. The coin flips, you know, the big tax rallies used to be conservatives marking, you know, tax day. And how long do you have to work until you can actually pay your taxes and it gets later and later in the year. Do you realize the majority of americans are okay with the amount of taxes they pay and last year they did not. Three out of four americans wants him to release the tax returns. He kept saying it didnt matter because he lost the popular vote by 3 million votes, but people think its unable that he thinks hes above the law. Substantively, it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter for the policy decisions we have been talking about. It wont matter in his reelection because it didnt matter in his reelection in 2015. Only matters a great deal on the russia investigation too. I dont think youll see you wouldnt see anything on russia in there. I dont think youll see anything more dramatic than he makes hundreds of millions of dollars, hes declared bankruptcy in the past. These are things we know and we talked about and we have seen. A question that is very, very important. Also, whos going to benefit from his vision for estate reform where he gets rid of the taxes that are going tone be fit going to benefit him. We can answer those questions every democrat and republican president since watergate has released the tax returns. Why shouldnt im not saying he shouldnt. But it wont matter to the substance of the bigger policies. Well get a test of the energy on tuesday in georgia. Of the top ten congressional districts, the highest populations with a college degree, nine of the ten are held by democrats. You can see them. Number ten is georgia, sixth, andrea. So that tells you that the democrats this is a seat thats moving towards them demographically. And trump won it by such a small margin so they believe they have a chance, there are 11 republican candidates, several democrats. So he has a challenge here. I think there could be a blow back in this district as in many districts especially in the south for them busing in people from the outside. There could be a reaction against that. I would say theres almost a countercomplacency about all the talk about the great energy on the left. Just like trump needs wins, the democrats dont have wins. A win would be close. When we come back, politics in the pulpit. Its Easter Sunday so lets have this conversation. How much should politics and religion mix . Well, well hear from three on how separate church and state should be. Coming up, meet the press end game, brought to you by sfx engine revving silence hey dad, come meet the new guy. The new guy . What new guy . I hired some help. He really knows his wine. This is the new guy . Hello, my name is watson. You know wine, huh . I know that you should check vineyard block 12. Block 12 . My analysis of satellite imagery shows it would benefit from decreased irrigation. I was wondering about that. Easy boy. Nice doggy. What do you think . Not bad. What we do every night is like something out of a strange dream. Except that the next morning. It all makes sense. Fedex powers global ecommerce. With networks built over 40 years. That are massive. Farreaching. And, yes. Maybe a bit magical. Visit fedex. Com slash dream baby crying minutes old. A babys skin is never more delicate. What do hospitals use to wash and protect it . Johnsons® the number 1 choices in hospitals. Meet the press end game is brought to you by boeing. Always working to build something better. Welcome back. Were going to end the broadcast this eastern sunday by discussioning how religious leaders deal or dont deal with politics at a time when the country is so polarized and congregations are polarized. We brought together t. D. Jakes, pastor joann hummel of the fellowship in texas, and rabbi david saperstein. I asked if we should abide by the maxim not to mix politics and religion. Its a misnomer because it says that politics and religions when theyre not ideologies so wherever there are people you have the intermixing of relodge yosty and youre concerned about politics and theyre going to connect whether you want them to or not. Should we stop fighting it . I think theyre connected in the sense that religion is an internal kind of thing. That really gets at the heart. And the mind. And politics is the outworking off your values and the things that are inside you. I see them connected actually. Sometimes i wonder if we overthought the phrase a little bit, rabbi. You can separate two kinds of politics partisan politics, one category. But what we normally refer to as politics as you have just heard, really is interwoven with religion. In other words, when we talk about the poor, when we talk about the vulnerable, when we talk about the biblical command to welcome the stranger in our midst and love the stranger as ourselves, to protect gods creation, we are talking about Global Warming and refugee policy and migrant policy. Theyre woven together. Just as the prophets around jesus of nazareth and the biblical characters all address these issues in their time, so we feel compelled to address it in ours. Look, bishop jakes, you have not been afraid of politics. You havent been afraid of politics and rabbi, obviously. But talk about some of your fellow pastors around bishops and rabbis. I think its a thin line you have to walk. Primarily people dont come to church to hear you espouse political beliefs. And in the black tradition, we have pastors long before we ever had a president , so our pastors have a different expectation from the congregation to weigh in on issues that affect the people and many times you become the voice of people who are voiceless. If i had to grow into understanding that that platform was also a responsibility amongst my parishers without getting nuanced over into the individual behind the politics, you do at least have to confront the issues that affect your congregation. Where are you im thinking about the people in our church who want to know how to be biblical. So when they come to church theyre wrestling with the issues in the world and theyre not sure because Biblical Literacy is increasing. So theyre looking to the pulpit, and to us, with how to think. So we grapple with the issues from the biblical perspective. And some synagogues are becoming sanctuaries. Synagogues and churches. Thats a big political statement for a synagogue to make and in some and some congregants view it as youre taking sides. Thats the paradox. When were feeding hungry people in our food programs and sheltering Homeless People in our homeless shelter programs and we are welcoming the refugee, the stranger, the tells us we should treat as ourselves in providing shelter to them and sanctuary to them, we are living out our religious ideals. We have pastoral responsibilities to our members. Regardless of their politics or ours, we have to not compromise ourselves in a way that would undercut our ability to do that. But were also teachers and leaders and the one who exemplifies how to apply our traditional values to the world about us, thats a difficult tight rope to walk. But we have to accomplish both responsibilities. You think it actually you would be punished more if you ignored politics, bishop . I think it has consequences. I dont think that you can walk out of youre afraid to totally ignore the environment in which your faith is exemplified. And it is its not an issue as to how you take it on, and you have to be willing to be misunderstood or become silent and not be heard at all. You heard some of the criticism of evangelicals going wait a minute, how can you set aside the moral outrage over bill clinton from donald trump . How do you explain it . Wow. Thats a hard one. I think the moral underpinnings of our country and of our faith are challenged when these things happen. When candidate trump talks about those things about women. That was personally offensive to me. But im not called to go into the pulpit and express my views about myself. I need to look at that from a wider context of scripture. What does the bible say about how women are treated and how we should honor one another . Thats my message. Im really not going to delve into the political specifics. But bringing that to the wider and even a deeper human issue. Why are we doing that and why do we do the same thing. Do any of you see the rise of secularism as a rejection of faith leaders or a rejection of faiths . What do you attribute the rise of secularism to . You know, a lot of times im not sure that the rise is as high as the media reports that it is. I think that faith has in many cases retreated back behind private walls and im saying a rejection of organized religion, a pew Research Suggests that millennials in particular are retreating not that they dont have faith, but they dont express it in the way that their parents have done. The challenge of people of faith is not so much to wrestle against secularism, but to remain relevant in a society that has lost faith in all institutions. And the only the onus is on to recreate ourselves without losing sight of our Core Principles and values. Pastor, that yeah, im thinking when youre saying that, bishop, is how we have made heaven here. Especially in the west. We dont really need to relate to that theology of heaven and rescue and salvation the same way we did. Because when we have to be rescue what do we have to be recu rescued from . You go to africa or the global south. And theres no secularism there because theres no theres no development there or theres no personal wealth there. So theyre looking to god for everything that they have and theres such joy in that. It reveals the joy of the human heart. You see the rise of secularism almost as a benefit of our success in society . Yes, yes. I think what it does it layers over the real needs of peoples hearts. But what im seeing in the church and ill bow to you guys on this, but when people come into crisis they still come to the church. We are there in the crisis moments of peoples lives. We are at the sick bed, at the wedding altar, at the divorce court. We are there in those spaces where people are hurting. When the money cant help it and the secular things we have enveloped ourselves with cant save you. Well, that was a i hope a full conversation for you. T. D. Jakes, joann hummel and david saperstein. You can see the rest of the interview on meet the press. Com. Happy Easter Sunday. Happy passover to those observing. Were back next week. By the way, go wizards and go caps. Because if its sunday, its meet the press. You can see more end game and postgame on the ralph natale of the philadelphia mafia. Rosemary connors with chilling frankness, ralph natale details his days running the philly mob. The murders, the takeover of atlantic city, his mentor angelo bruno, and natales last conversation with union boss jimmy hoffa. Ralph i could smell the dampness of the dirt of the grave when i looked at him. Male announcer nbc10 issue starts now. Rosemary good morning, im Rosemary Connors for nbc10 issue. Ralph natale led the philly mob back in the mid to late 90s. Hes the highest ranking mafia member to turn federal witness, testifying against reputed mob boss joey merlino. Natale keeps his whereabouts close to the vest, so this morning, he will be talking with us by phone