The protests kicked off in June following a mainline extradition bill which many see as innovation of rights and freedom some to China I'm sorry Bassus Iraq's parliament approved the resignation of the embattled prime minister on Sunday this after 2 months of violent unrest that have left more than 420 people dead and thousands mourning them in nationwide marches Albania's prime minister is calling on the international community for financial aid and expert assistance to help the country recover from last week's 6.4 magnitude earthquake that killed 51 people and left thousands homeless a regional bus in Tunisia crashed off a hill Sunday morning killing 22 passengers the interior ministry says 21 additional passengers are being treated at nearby hospitals for more on any of these stories go to v.o.a. News dot com This is v.o.a. News Russian emergency officials saying 1000 people died Sunday when their bus plunged off a bridge onto a frozen river in Eastern Siberia another 22 people were injured in the accident and Australian academic freed by the Taliban in a prisoner swap has spoken of his long and tortures ordeal as a hostage in Afghanistan at a news conference to meet the week says the time he spent as a hostage with the Taliban had an unimaginable effect on him at times I felt as if my death was imminent. And that I would never reach out and say days that I lobbed again. But by the will of God I am here. I'm alive and I'm say and I'm free there's nothing else that I need he in an American captive Kevin King were freed this month in exchange for 3 senior militants held by the Afghan authorities week says their release came suddenly have to almost 1200 days I will Dale and it is abruptly as it had begun and a Black Hawk helicopter lifted me from the pot soils of understand the parrot been held for 3 weeks 3 years after being abducted outside the American University of Afghanistan in Kabul where they worked as professors the House Intelligence Committee is wrapping up the investigative phase of its impeachment inquiry in the Us President Donald Trump Tuesday evening meeting is planned a vote on its report then the House Judiciary Committee will take the lead as the Democratic led House pushes closer to a possible vote on charges against President Trump representatives of nearly 200 countries begin annual climate talks in Madrid Monday on Sunday u.n. Secretary General Antonio Gutierrez spoke with reporters saying global efforts to stop climate change have been utterly inadequate we must stop our war against nature and sighing Stella's us that we can do it a pair of grim United Nations reports published in recent days underscore the scope and real life impact of in submission insufficient Climate Action a fragment of wood believed to be from the manger where Jesus was laid after his birth arrived in Bethlehem on Saturday as a gift from the pope kicking off Christmas celebrations Reuters Conway Guinn's report the people of Bethlehem have received what is believed to be a little piece of Jesus's history in a kick off to the Christmas holiday season this small piece of wood just a few inches long is said to be part of the major with Jesus latest head after his humble birth in the town revered as his birthplace a relic a gift from the Vatican arrived in Bethlehem on Saturday after a Friday unveiling at the Notre Dom of Jerusalem Center a relic which was greeted by marching bands was placed in St Catharines church at the Church of the nativities compound in Manger Square from Washington I'm Jim Byrd tells v.o.a. News. From Washington and the away from the sands issues in the news. And welcome team it seems in many on the panel this week the Boids Yang is more despondent for the Times of London than Medina senior Washington correspondent for 24 News and I'm on a later install branded White House reporter for the last 20 points and columnist for USA Today. Hello thank you for joining us and here are the issues the impeachment inquiry into President Trump moves into a new phase another Democrat has entered the race for president former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg President Trump has fired his Navy secretary it concerns a controversial decision by the president to reinstate a member of the Navy's elite SEALs and will break down recent elections in Hong Kong where pro-democracy candidates have scored major gains Well let's start with this impeachment inquiry into President front but a lot of developments obviously in recent days and we'll start with you Dan including this announcement by the House Judiciary Committee that they're going to hold hearings next week that was certainly a major step that on December 4th there will be the start of hearings in the House Judiciary Committee and that's the committee that's tasked with writing what are called Articles of Impeachment So if this were a legal process in which an alleged criminal you know was being brought before judges and being put on trial this would be actually writing the indictment what are the crimes that Donald Trump will be charged with and so far this is entirely partisan and because the Democratic Party has the majority in the House of Representatives they're able to pretty much do what they want they had hearings that all around the world people saw bits at least on television and that was in the House Intelligence Committee looking into how President Trump and people close to him handled Ukraine now in the house to. This year we committee we understand the hearings will start at least with trying to define what is impeachment What are the misdeeds by an American president that could deserve impeachments and then being put on trial in the Senate now because it's all partisan because the Democrats have a majority you know whatever the content is of the hearings it seems pretty clear that before Christmas the House will vote to impeach the president only a majority vote is needed the Democrats have that and therefore we think in January they'll be a trial which is very dramatic it's only the 3rd time in u.s. History a president's been put on trial in the u.s. Senate a 2 thirds vote in the u.s. Senate would convict the President and remove him from office but the Republicans have the majority and there is no sign in the u.s. Senate of of any Republican voting against Trump let alone 20 Republicans crossing over and voting with Democrats so everyone assumes that the president will be acquitted in the Senate trial and mainly we wonder what the political impact will be whether this whole process will actually damage President Trump and his chance of being reelected next year or maybe even help him because he'll he'll boast that he survived the impeachment process now then you've given the whole answer right there but when people say What can the president be impeached for that's what the Republicans say they said well we hasn't done anything and yet impeachment as President Gerald Ford famously said 40 plus years ago well it's whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at any given moment in time and Democrats now have a long list of things that they say meets that threshold everything from obstruction of justice 10 instances in the Bible report even obstruction of Congress for not producing witnesses and documents in this in that the witness intimidation all these things that they say constitute articles of impeachment Yeah I mean the list has certainly gotten longer since the public impeachment hearing started earlier this month with President. You know tweeting things he probably shouldn't be tweeting while people are testifying and more disclosures coming out about this whistleblower report and the president essentially withholding military aid in exchange for asking for some help from the Ukrainians to find politically embarrassing information about his rival Joe Biden his son Hunter who had worked at a Ukrainian energy company at least from the Democratic perspective that's the big argument that they're making to buy As Dan pointed out earlier it is a sort of still politically risky thing to go through with impeachment because from the Republican perspective they say well you know the aide was released what are you going to impeach him for he didn't actually do the things that he's being alleged to have done it's a Democratic narrative quote unquote to say that he intimidated witnesses by sort of you know making these threats on Twitter against the former Ukrainian ambassador by sort of it's his right to withhold information if he wants to because of this quote unquote executive privilege which was a defense that Nixon also have an age now but the aide was released it's believed only when the president found out in fact at this whistleblower was complaining about it and there's even a new rows of data that is going to report that the president knew about the complaint when he decided finally to give the military aid to Ukraine and Borum I'm wondering this v.o.a. Program mostly has a global audience and they're used to hearing news about all the countries on Earth Ukraine of Americans are used to that so I'm thinking that in the past month where the hearings about things that President Trump allegedly acted wrongly it was about how how he treats Ukraine and whether he was giving foreign aid I don't think Americans necessarily follow the detail I think you're absolutely right about that and if you look at the numbers for how many people actually tuned into the 1st week of hearings you know it was nothing like Watergate where 80000000 Americans as you know were sort of watching this unfold history unfold if something like. 13000000 Americans for the 1st day 13000000 for the 2nd day and I think some of that is borne out in the in the polling that we've seen as you pointed out earlier Dan it's still a very partisan impeachment process where Republican voters are sticking very much with Trump even though we see that a lot of Democrats and a lot of independents say while that this is wrong doing this is impeachable but you know whether or not people are watching the hearings the polls indicate that about half of Americans do want the president to be impeached and some of the polls even say do you want him removed and still it's almost half and so I don't think it's because of the evidence on the Ukraine case I think it's because how Americans feel about the president and these are sharply divided country I mean half the country felt even before this impeachment hearings half the country felt that way about him anyway so nothing else it's simply my sense is it simply reinforcing the views of people brought to the table to become sort of well let's move on to another Democrat has entered the race for president they could probably fill up a football stadium at this point but it's a former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg but let's start with you telling listeners about Mr Bloomberg So it's quite interesting that the former mayor of New York this very rich man another rich man from New York imagine 11 of those becoming president has jumped in to already a very crowded Democratic primary field and part of it is that there's a lot of nervousness despite the fact that there are so many Democratic candidates already on hand that there's not a clear winner that people are enthusiastic about Joe Biden the front runner has had difficulty with fund raising people don't necessarily seem excited about him because he's such an entrenched a politician he's been in politics for a long time meanwhile the other 2 front runners Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren a lot of people are nervous that they're running on a platform that is quite left wing and they want to basically common and completely change the system if honest all sorts. Of big social programs lots of spending and that makes many people very nervous that middle America is not ready for that so Mr Bloomberg is coming in I think he thinks that he has a chance to sort of capture that independent sort of moderate Democratic vote he's had quite a checkered history as a politician going from being a Democrat to being a Republican when he was serving as mayor and then becoming an independent and back to being in fact of being a now now a Democrat and he's quite an executive who's very data focused his his motto is trust in God to everyone else brings Ada he's so sort of meticulous in specific that it's rumored that he signed off on the heights of the desks you know at his new headquarters in London I think the point of him jumping in the race and another centrist jumping in the race Deval Patrick the former governor of Massachusetts is out there there is a bunch of nervousness about the primaries and who actually can capture the energy as well as the votes in the now general election you know one thing Dan that's interesting about Bloomberg his wealth is estimated I think at about $54000000000.00 American $1.00 with a b. And of course there's a phrase in the United States that money is the mother's milk of politics he has by far more than anyone has no need to go out and raise money from anyone and he is intending from what I'm reading to spend tens of millions of dollars of his own money it's nothing to him he can stay in the race for as long as it takes him to board point all these other candidates maybe not the sitting voters on fire with their enthusiasm or anything how could someone with that kind of money and staying power is not a possible game changer well in the left leaning Democratic Party and it's hard to believe that a man whose main attribute is being wealthy could be popular and that's why I don't think he's likely to win in this process of the primaries from. To state the state of the process that begins this coming from power I don't think is likely to win but people who like Bloomberg they say oh just wait till you hear him just wait till he does take part in a debate right now he hasn't qualified for any of the debates he's missed 5 of them so he really is you know behind in the race but if he's in a debate he will show that he is sensible that he is centrist he's obviously good with money and Paul as you point out he doesn't need contributions he apparently doesn't plan to take any contributions from the public and that's why indeed he could stay in the race at least 5 short the whole time he's going to see whether he has a chance he probably doesn't like to waste money there was another little odd thing because you may know he runs he owns a news agency that has a t.v. Channel and a worldwide radio network and one of the most important sources of business news the Bloomberg News Service and so within that news service a decision was announced that Bloomberg News Service won't cover Bloomberg won't actually get into the Democratic party raise won't do investigations won't do background stories but at the same time they will keep covering President Trump which seems kind of unfair they'll be covering the negatives let's say of the of the Trump administration but not saying anything about their own boss and the other Democrats so that's a strange situation here that someone who heads a media organization wants to become president and there will be a lot of Americans who feel uncomfortable with that but again friends of Bloomberg say just wait to see him in a debate he's so smart so sensible so centrist that he really could be attractive now if he were to this no coverage thing is interesting were he to win the nomination next summer then of course what would they do because you'd have this to be down to trump and Bloomberg the debates and everything what are they going to do not cover him in a general election I guess the Bloomberg News Service would cover him and they do would question people on Wall Street what do you think is the impact of the race and all that but somehow be hands off and not make it appear like he's using his new service hey when it comes to Donald Trump he doesn't own the media but when you watch some of the conservative media in this country it's pretty much like you know . Let's pause for a short break more issues in the news in just a moment the issues in the news is coming to you from the Voice of America in Washington and if you would like to download the program it's free on i Tunes Just click on the i Tunes tab on our website that's v.o.a. Needs dot com And while you're there check out our other programs have Conference USA and encounter Also with us on Facebook and leave a comment or 2 then like us x. Currency payers with Carol Castillo Now back to our panel for dang correspondent for The Times of London Dan may be the senior Washington correspondent for I 24 News and I'm moderator is Paul Brandis White House reporter for West Wing reports and a columnist for USA Today. Welcome back Navy secretary Richard Spencer has been fired this after it was learned that Spencer was trying to resolve a standoff between the Pentagon and White House over a member of the elite Navy SEALs the Navy wanted to get rid of the seal his name is Eddie Gallagher We've since learned that Gallagher will in fact retire shortly from the Navy now he was convicted of dishonoring the military by posing next to a dead ISIS fighters body that is against military regulations he was also demoted for that and acquitted in a separate case of murder and all very kind of complicated in a bit and a way that the president reversed Gallagher's demotion military officials launched a formal review to determine if you use fit to serve which is protocol after conviction a dangerous kind of thing almost unprecedented in sort of the annals of American military and their cooperation with an American president but never quite heard of a case like this well intervening in a particular case yeah I haven't heard a bit about it either but keep in mind that in the United States the president is often called the commander in chief meaning the. That's his role in the u.s. Military despite being a civilian so he can do whatever he wants it is legal and he decided to intervene he heard about the case of this Navy Seal a commando fighter who had served in both Iraq and Afghanistan his name is Eddie Gallagher and Eddie Gallagher became kind of a cause celeb run some of the conservative media here's this hero who is being brought down as being put before a court martial because he killed a terrorist and then pose for photographs with that young terrorist body I say young because well that apparently the alleged terrorist an ISIS fighter was a teenager he'd been wounded he was being treated by a u.s. Medic when according to witnesses that he Gallagher came up and killed that fellow and then posed for the photo although that does seem like a violation of military discipline and that's what Gallagher was convicted of but when President Trump heard about the case he said not I'm going to take Gallagher's side and just the week before less notice perhaps less controversial the president had offered a pardon in one case and clemency and another again intervening in 2 courts martial on behalf of soldiers the president said I'm always going to take the side of the warrior so President Trump may sincerely feel that and in addition he thinks it's good for his image and good for him politically so the Navy secretary was trying to be normal civilian executive at the Defense Department and he objected tried to kind of deal something of a compromise the president thought when he learned about that that's outrageous and forced Richard v. Spencer to resign Spencer later saying the president doesn't seem to understand if you're an American fighter there are rules there's discipline there's integrity and the president doesn't understand that so it's another case in which people are accusing Trump of being unconventional and ruining some of the norms Spencer wrote this extraordinary farewell letter where he said that Trump was undermining and I'm quoting here the key principle of good order and discipline Spencer Of course I believe was actually appointed by President from so not some one of these deep state. Bureaucrats and we're always hearing about yeah and he also said Warren I'll get you to respond to this Spencer in his letter said I cannot in good conscience obey in order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my family my flag and my faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States the implication being that the president does not share those values Yeah I mean as quiet an astonishing and damning resignation letter as you point out Paul has someone that Trump himself appointed and not only does Richard Spencer feel this but he's the president has definitely gotten some backlash from sort of rank and file members of military saying look you know this undermines the oath that we took from legal experts who say look this kind of extraordinary intervention appends the legal system under which military discipline is supposed to be enforced and sort of takes away from the laws of engagement and warfare that supposed to sort of define what we do is soldiers and makes it so that there's a feeling that you know there are exceptions to the rule that there's no sort of unified standard and that's damaging not just in this case for morale but in the long run in terms of what is the system that we're upholding But as Dan pointed out Mr Trump does act in this way often where he likes to take up exceptional causes and point to them and say look you know I've got this thing done and it's people who support me my supporters really like it you know whether it's criminal justice reform and he's sort of pardoning a particular woman or a particular case that he seen on Fox News or you know doing something like this without sort of thinking about the bigger implications for some of that is in the United States so many of those cases the kind that you mentioned this is a worldwide image issue right in the u.s. Forces all around the world how do they behave Do they respect the rules of war or do they do whatever they want and president trumps of you seems to. Be that in a war against terrorist groups such as ISIS there are no rules I just want tough guys out there fighting Spencer has said that it's the rule of law in fact that separates us from the rest of the world so this is sort of a battle over perhaps image and perception and how we're seen around the world let me take a step back though on that the end you know Dan it seems that the president in his been in office for about 3 years now he has really taken on courting to some at least say undermined but at least challenge can now the military in the past he's challenge the intelligence community the judiciary pillars of American system what what do you make of that well I've spoken with friends of President Trump every few months I kind of check in you know how do you think your guy is doing and early on in his presidency and it began in early 2017 they were focused on the economy and they said look the stock market's going up look the business world likes this now in the past few months there are uncomfortable with the trade dispute with China with a high level of tariffs they fear that can be damaging and as for president Trump's tendency to not respect the norms to be unconventional I'm finding that supporters of the president still like that you know that he's different I think it's the same thing I was at Trump's campaign launch and you know people are queuing up for days outside getting into this and and I think to your point Dan what people care about tends to be how the economy is doing how things that affect their day to day life have changed under one president or another and I think that's part of the reason why when he goes out and does these unconventional things supporters of the president just generally find it to either be something like Yeah we got to have a tough guy or something that they don't pay a whole lot of attention to because it doesn't affect their life in a in a very direct way and I think that you know that goes back to the other things that we've been talking about with impeachment and with this president breaking norms it just doesn't. Affects the average voter and a way that would cause them to pay a whole lot of attention or to be very exercised or be disturbed about something about it and that's perhaps about half of America exactly I certainly spoken with a lot of people including Republicans who say well I don't like his tweets I wish he wouldn't be so rude and so crass but on the other hand if you see in the economy you would only think it is true that people tend to vote on issues that are nearest and dearest to damage that usually the economy and yet there's sort of a projection by the Federal Reserve that some of these key states that trump barely one in 2016 and he's going to need again next year they're actually predicting not just a slowdown but a contraction in the economy in places like Wisconsin Michigan Pennsylvania all 3 key states that the president had yet if you look at polls on a state by state basis they show both of you and said the president is holding up quite well in these polls so even though even though the economies of those states looks a little shaky one reason for that is because we don't know who the Democratic party candidate will be and whether that man or woman will look like someone who's very capable to improve the economy or as you said Bors someone who's thought of as a socialist and that doesn't sit well with many Americans Ok well let's move on got a couple of minutes left here in Hong Kong pro-democracy candidates have want a stunning victory in local elections there winning 86 percent of seats turnout was reported to be very heavy about 70 percent of people voting there now aboard this is something that's sort of in your lane This appears to be I think a clear rebuke of Beijing and its allies in Hong Kong itself yeah and they Jean clearly understands I mean it was just reported that their senior political points he in Hong Kong is going to be recalled and they're going to replace him with someone else you know President Xi stayed with Kerry lamb the chief executive in Hong Kong to sort of show a bit of support but there's questions. Over You know how strong really is that support Kerry Lamb has had to come out after these very embarrassing elections as you point out Paul pro-democracy candidate it's won 17 out of 18 of the local districts basically a slaughter at the polls and Kerry Lamb has had to come out and say that she's willing to sort of compromise and you know try and find a new way of governing that she says that you know she can't give anymore more concessions given the protests that have been happening in recent weeks that became increasingly violent until there is this police siege at polytech university it's a question of what Beijing does next and there's clearly very nervous they've set up a villa outside of Shien's and to try and sort of coordinate the activities it's a very tense situation but as you say it's clearly rebuke of Beijing Hong Kong being a very important financial center has to sort of be dealt with very delicately and clearly Hong Kong orders and their concerns about universal suffrage about police brutality about how these things are dealt with will have to be dealt with and then there's American angle here to Congress both the House and the Senate have passed legislation that backs these pro democracy demonstrators in Hong Kong a president of a one point hinted that he might actually veto that he's under pressure not to what's he going to do well it was bipartisan in Congress to take the side of the protesters and not of the government in Beijing but the president often says that he feels that he is good friends with the president of the People's Republic of China Jinping and so just just even this past week President trying to make an extraordinary claim he said President Xi would have sent in Chinese troops there would have been more brutality in Hong Kong if not for me President Trump was claiming that he had counseled Beijing not to use violence the word the Trump was used has been humane to be humane and I hope they solve it obviously President Trump is not getting into the details I'm not sure he would understand the various parties but it's a matter of image and so. As I don't want China to crack down and so again President at least has taken a view on that would he veto the congressional measure Ok I don't want to guess but if you think about what's there sometimes Congress passes something that doesn't have teeth it's just a resolution it's kind of the opiate of the Congress of the United States so why should the president block that I mean the United States stands for freedom it's a delicate thing especially when we're in a big trade dispute with China and the Goetia Asians continue we'll have to end it right there are thanks to 2 of Washington's most prominent journalists aboard dang She's the correspondent for The Times of London and Dan revealed he's with Israel's 24 hour news this program was produced by Kim Lewis our engineer Justin Thwaites and Ron Paul Brandis of USA Today and West Wing Reports thanks for joining us. From v.o.a. Press Conference USA here's your host Carol Castillo. Welcome to Press Conference USA on The Voice of America joining me on the program is v.o.a. Diplomatic correspondent Cindy saying our special guest on this edition of the program is Frances Brown she's a fellow with the democracy conflict and governance program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and that's a prominent think tank here in Washington prior to joining Carnegie Francis Brown served for 18 months as director for democracy on the White House National Security Council staff under both the Obama and Trump administrations where she helped to manage policy processes on key political transitions post conflict stabilization efforts and democracy support France has also spent 5 years working at the u.s. Agency for International Development Office of transition initiatives. Managing stabilisation and political transition programs in Afghanistan the Middle East and Africa from the field and Washington her writing focuses on conflict governance and u.s. Foreign policy and she has published field research projects on Afghanistan stabilization and subnational governance with the u.s. Institute of Peace and shorter analyses from many reputable news outlets Well we're delighted that Francis Browne could join us here at the v.o.a. Broadcast Center in Washington to draw on her vast foreign policy and national security experience to shed light on a number of pressing issues facing the United States and the world Frances Brown welcome to the program delighted to be here thanks so much and I'm delighted as always to welcome my colleague Cindy saying our diplomatic correspondent my pleasure Francis you served on the White House National Security Council for both Obama and the Trump administrations How would you compare and contrast your experiences between these 2 administrations what were the points of convergence and divergence from your experience Well Carol I think what I learned from my experience on both the Obama White House staff and on the trunk White House staff was really how these 2 presidents approach foreign policy very differently and how that trickle down to me and my colleagues staffers So in the Obama White House President Obama made it very clear that we were all a team trying to solve problems for the American people so big problems that were facing us in the foreign policy arena where issues like climate change issues like the rise of ISIS issues like looking at a rising China and figuring out alternatives and ending wars and the way we approached our job then was trying to all work together to marshal all the parts of the u.s. Government the State Department the Defense Department the Treasury Department many . Other actors to try to solve these problems in partnership with allies I talk about in a Washington Post piece I wrote recently how we spoke almost entirely in sports metaphors because we thought of ourselves as that team and us football parlance we were trying to move the ball down the field that might not make too much sense for our international viewers we were trying to put points on the board so it was it was a really hard working team oriented approach to public service when the Trump administration came in and I did stay on I was a civil servant in the White House so I was there through all of the transition and then the 1st 8 months of the trumpet ministration what I learned is that the Trump team viewed public service very differently and they viewed foreign policy very differently as we all know President Trump is the business man in chief and he viewed foreign policy in terms of getting a good deal or a bad deal that it was America versus the world he didn't think it was much in terms of alliances or partnerships he thought that the rest of the world was trying to get a bad deal for America the other really important thing I learned Trump and I see staffer was that for all of my work and my colleagues work to get the words exactly right to write the exact right talking points for the president to use to make communications very clear and the trumpet ministration speaking clearly didn't matter as much the president kind of liked to be ambiguous about what he was doing with regards to China what he was doing with regards to Russia what his policy intentions were for Syria where isn't a normal administration Republican or Democrat the White House would really strive to be clear in its objectives and the trumpet ministration that was basically flipped on its head and I think we're seeing that still more and recent foreign policy episodes that we can get into I have a quick follow up before I turn to my colleague Cindy now of course President Trump makes no secret of his sort of disdain for public servants of course to the dismay of those of us who are public servants who work for the government but let's look at a recent example with through the. To the impeachment hearings that we've witnessed over the last 2 weeks even though the White House sought to block testimonies by executive branch officials during the impeachment inquiry many senior Foreign Service and National Security officials responded to congressional subpoenas and beautifully testified about what they saw heard or experienced with regard to the Ukraine scandal at the heart of the impeachment inquiry and some of their testimonies may actually implicate the president and other cabinet officials and of course as a result President Trump and some Republicans have disparaged those public servants President Trump even live tweeted during the testimony of former ambassador to Ukraine Marie you have on of each who was abruptly recalled from her post after a smear campaign by President Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani are you concerned Francis about the effect of these actions and these denigrating remarks on our professional diplomats and civil servants now the ability for them to continue to do their jobs without intimidation and the ability to even recruit new officers to replenish the ranks of so many who are leaving and the fact that President Trump and senior national security officials are showing the interest in cutting even more staff from the National Security Council Yeah I find it tremendously troubling Carol I think exactly as you say we are seeing the president almost going to war with the public servants who are meant to be filling out his policies and carrying out his policies I think what we saw during the impeachment hearings was the tremendous skill on display of these public servants the patriotism the articulate ideas about how the u.s. Should advance national interests these were a political civil servants for the most part who simply wanted to advance u.s. Policy and instead as as you know we had the president often times by name calling out these civil servants as his enemies I think it's already unfortunately having a real chilling effect on the Foreign Service on the civil service. We've seen I believe historic lows of people taking the Foreign Service exam to get into the State Department we've seen record number of senior diplomats retiring so there's a very real chilling effect on a ridge very real hollowing out and honestly I think even if a new president were to come in either in one year or in 5 years some of this damage is going to be very hard to undo for the u.s. Public servants and the u.s. Diplomatic corps my Callie Bill Burns at the Carnegie Endowment has written about this exact hollowing out of the diplomatic corps and I think he makes several excellent points about the real jeopardy that this place is u.s. National interests and indeed because what happens is the rift between the administration and our professional civil and Foreign Service sends a mixed message to our allies and adversaries they don't know who is speaking for whom exactly and I think that's been in full display as regards Ukraine what we've learned now is that we've got almost 2 parallel foreign policies that were under way with regards to Ukraine we had the foreign policy that was being advanced by the Defense Department the State Department the Treasury Department all really in lockstep and saying we should be giving security assistance to Ukraine because it's in a war with Russia this is in u.s. National interest this is an altruism this is the right thing to do for u.s. National interests so that was one foreign policy and then in parallel we had a separate foreign policy being run by the president his lawyer Rudy Giuliani and other of their colleagues and as you say the messaging for our allies and partners was tremendously confusing and damaging I'd like to turn to Cindy saying for a question yes since you have been working for both administrations a number of observers have said that it would seem that President Trump seems to have a real affinity for dictators or off for a terrorist. In leaders have you noticed that yourself and especially with your focus on u.s. Support for democracy Have you noticed a substantive change between the 2 administrations Yeah it is a really notable trend in the trumpet ministration and with President Trump himself he does have a marked and kind of puzzling affinity for strong men leaders for usually guys who he can buddy up with and talk tough with and we've seen this with regards a number of leaders we've seen a lot of near Putin we've seen it with the Turkish leader heir to one we've seen it with the Filipino leader do terror these are all strong men leaders who are not democratic reformers and I do think this sends a very strong message again in a traditional u.s. Administration Republican or Democrat the president would send a really strong message in terms of buying by democratic norms not tolerating anti-democratic behavior with Trump we've seen pretty much the opposite I don't have an explanation for that I think a lot of it has to do with his own personal chemistry with these individuals but I do think it has really detrimental effects for the u.s. As policy priority of advancing democracy worldwide and what we're seeing is that we've got the president on one level giving Oval Office meetings to these dictators and strong men at the same time as we've got the State Department and other u.s. Public servants trying to stand up for democracy around the world ambassadors around the world telling their counterparts you need to abide by human rights norms you need to have free and fair elections so once again you've got this tension within the u.s. Foreign policy apparatus and it's really detrimental it's really confusing right you mentioned the tension between the u.s. Foreign policy apparatus we've also seen some clashes between the White House and Congress and you mentioned President Trump's close relation with Turkey's president ever to Juan and Congress. Is threatening to impose sanctions against Turkey could you talk a little bit about that Congress has been really trying to advance a pretty hard line against Turkey they actually already passed one set of sanctions within the past year at the same time Trump has sort of developed this very warm chemistry with President Erickson one as you know he just visited the White House this autumn so everyone is getting very mixed messages the challenge when you've got again the 2 different branches of government doing 2 different foreign policy is that if Congress passes sanctions it still needs the executive branch to fulfill those sanctions to carry out those sanctions and there's a lot of ways in which the trumpet ministration cannot carry those out so we could see a scenario where Congress continues to make strong statements and past wrong legislation and not actually get anywhere we'll have more in just a moment but 1st you're listening to Press Conference USA on The Voice of America our guest is Frances Brown she's a fellow with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has democracy conflict and governance program she was formerly director for democracy on the White House National Security Staff under the Obama and Trump administrations I'm Carol Castillo along with v.o.a. Diplomatic correspondent Cindy saying this is a reminder that our peace USAID podcast is available on our website at v.o.a. News dot com slash p.c. USA and a new v.o.a. English app for both Android and Apple devices has been developed and we encourage you to download and use them you may also follow us on Twitter or connect with us on Facebook at Carol Castillo Elvia way here's a shout out to a loyal fan Chad rock bang he's from Plateau State Nigeria if you want to hear your name and home country on the air please send an email to p.c. USA at v.o.a. News dot com or like us and leave a comment on our Facebook page Well back to our special guest Frances Brown and rezzes I want to go back and talk a little bit more. Or about what's going on with this Ukraine scandal and the impeachment inquiry there's a lot of talk about you know making conditions on foreign aid and what President Trump did is no different than what other White Houses do but some people say there is a distinction can you discuss the difference between the normal conditioning of foreign aid on compliance with established foreign policy goals and the so-called conditions that Mr Trump allegedly requested of Ukraine in return for receipt of disbursement of already Congressionally approved military aid Absolutely because I think this is an essential distinction for our listeners to understand the United States often puts conditions on foreign aid be it security aid or other forms of economic assistance in order to advance policies that the u.s. Sees in its national interest that's very normal and very appropriate So in many cases if in the Ukraine case there were particular corruption benchmarks that had been laid out that we wanted the Ukrainians to follow through on as a policy decision conditioning aid on that would have been of fairly normal scenario the difference in what we have learned has happened in this instance is that this aid wasn't being conditioned on a u.s. Policy objective like fighting corruption instead it was being conditioned on the president's own personal and political objectives of getting the Ukrainians to conduct an investigation into one of the president's own domestic political opponents Joe Biden and Joe Biden's family that's a tremendously important distinction and we need to never forget that there's a difference between u.s. Policy goals on one side and the president's own personal agenda on the other turning to Syria if we may now the Pentagon is saying that u.s. Troops are taking part in raids against ISIS in Syria with Kurdish allies again just a couple of weeks after President Trump said that he's withdrawing American forces can you explain us. Policy toward Syria at the moment and what impact do these shifts in policy have on allies and others u.s. Syria policy over the past year it hasn't just been a flip flop I would say it's been a flip flop flip flop flip and I think we've now just gotten to the final flop so we have had u.s. Troops partnering with local forces known as the Syrian democratic forces for over 2 years taking the fight to counter ISIS and this is been a militarily very successful campaign we saw the final bit of the territorial caliphate under ISIS fall earlier this year so it was a tremendously successful military campaign however that partnership has always been a partnership that Turkish president area on has had problems with as we mentioned Turkish president and President Trump have a very close relationship and Turkish president ever to one has some legitimate concerns about the s.d.f. As being connected to a terrorist group that has operated on Turkish soil so this is always been in tension but we've seen this flip flop flip flop is that President Trump has alternatively said he was taking u.s. Forces out of Syria and then allowed them to go back and we saw this 1st in December of last year and then we've seen this more recently the final upshot of this most recent turnabout that's happened this autumn was that as you say President Trump announced all u.s. Troops were leaving in early October u.s. Troops did exit for the most part but have slowly made their way back and are now conducting the same counter ISIS operations as they were before you could say so then what's changed we had a little blip but unfortunately a lot of change and there has been some impact on u.s. Interests so 1st of all as the u.s. Abruptly withdrew we gave up a lot of the to. Retore that we've been holding in Syria and we gave it up to Russians as well as the Syrian regime so the Russians are now literally inhabiting the bases where u.s. Troops used to be stationed in Syria and in addition the counter ISIS campaign which was our major objective was slowed down considerably because we took our eye off the ball and then finally the partnership that we did have with the Syrian democratic forces has really been frayed many civilians and troops were killed or just placed in the process so the u.s. Has given up a lot by this most recent flip flop without getting much in return we've now got a smaller area of operations from which we are conducting these campaigns there is also now an oil protection mission but President Trump has said as part of this mission which again raises all kinds of legal questions as well as policy questions let's turn now to Afghanistan Frances where you also have quite a bit of experience and background this is the longest war that the United States has been engaged in and we're still not at the point where there's a peace deal with the Taliban between the government the Taliban I'd like to get your observations and recommendations regarding the next steps to engage in this kind of peace negotiations with the Taliban making sure that the country will never again be a launching pad for International Terrorist Attacks like the one we experienced on 911 but at the same time ensuring that the country is on its way to self-sufficiency whether economically politically how do you see what the next step should be both for the United States and for Afghanistan so to take one step back I would say that the trumpet ministration deserve some credit with regards to Afghanistan because they did recognize that we need to bring this war to an end and we need to take some different approaches to bring about negotiations to bring them. War to an end so about a year ago we saw the trumpet ministration empower a special envoy. On American names all my holes on who really turbocharged the negotiation effort with the Talabani to try to meet these u.s. Objectives so he worked very hard for a year to try to come up with a deal between the u.s. And the Taliban to get out some of these core objectives so from the u.s. Side we want to make sure that Afghanistan is never again used as a harbor for terrorist attacks on us or our allies and from the Taliban side they want u.s. Troops to leave Additionally from the u.s. Side we have a couple other things that we would like to see at some point soon one is a ceasefire the level of violence is catastrophic in Afghanistan Afghan civilians and Afghan security forces are the ones who are bearing the brunt of this but devastating levels of deaths this year and then last year we also on the u.s. Side would like to see the Afghan government included in negotiations Afghan civil society included in negotiations Afghan political opposition included in negotiations we'd like to see what we call an intra Afghan dialogue and I think those have to be the next steps so as I said the Trump administration gets a lot of credit for starting down this long path unfortunately what we saw earlier this autumn in September was that President Trump sort of put the brakes abruptly on that negotiation process and it's been stalled for some time in more recent weeks we've seen some signs that this negotiation may be getting back on track we've seen a prisoner exchange the Taliban decided to release 2 Western prisoners that they've been holding 2 professors. Whereas the Afghan government released some of the Taliban prisoners so that could be a show of faith on both sides to restart negotiations but we'll have to see my recommendation is that we do need to restart these talks with all urgency there will not be a perfect solution for Afghanistan but the current status quo is worse for the Afghan people most of all another area in which you also have quite a bit of experience of the Middle East the Levant we're seeing incredible protests in Lebanon and Iraq now outpouring of a cross-section of sects and ethnicities basically protesting against the political and economic elites Iran has been a major target in both Iraq and Lebanon and they are railing against Iran's outsized influence there protesting against the lack of economic opportunities and the corruption how do you see these protests Francis do you see a positive trend it must be heartening to see this outpouring of democratic desires but the same time it's unstable in both Lebanon and Iraq I think we've seen some heartening trends and also some troubling ones although these protests were caused by local or national issues they did have some commonalities as you say they were driven by a sense across the population that the system is rigged we've heard that before the system was rigged that political elites were corrupt and were not making reforms that would help the average Lebanese or the average Iraqi oftentimes they were prompted by economic issues in Lebannon the government announced attacks on what's app the messaging app which was they percent attained in cause but the reason for the protest went much deeper than that. In the Lebanon context it was also particularly heartening to see Lebanese across there many confessions there many sacks protesting this wasn't just one group or another however I see a really troubling trend which is that both of these protests or the response has turned violent in both cases we've seen over 300 Iraqis killed by security forces in Lebanon in more recent days we've seen violent clashes between protesters and the Hezbollah movement so that's a very worrying trend the other big question is how do these protests to be resolved these protests are largely leaderless they're grassroots organic which makes them very powerful but also makes it very hard to figure out a response that will say she ate the protesters demands in both Lebanon and Iraq the protesters are basically saying some version of throw the whole system out overturn the whole system and that's a very hard thing for a government to do probably to the degree to which the protesters want so my concern is that we might see these protests and escalating levels of violence continue for a very long time without resolution quickly a follow up Francis How do you see the role of the United States with regard to these protests and what is the u.s. Policy in your view for example I was wondering these protests the outpouring of the desire for Twitter democracy and quality that should be a good thing for the United States it should bode well as well as this anti Juran sentiment absolutely those 2 demands are certainly in line with u.s. Policy priorities at the same time I think any u.s. Administration would be wary of getting too involved because as you know there's a deep legacy of u.s. Involvement on behalf of democracy in the Middle East and there's a sense in these countries that these are internal issues and that. They're better addressed on the inside I think the u.s. Can be a strong voice for nonviolence on the outside and if requested provide technical assistance restructuring if Lebanon wants a new electoral law and would like some technical assistance that would certainly be appropriate for the u.s. To provide But I think any u.s. Administration would be wary of seeming to wade too deeply in to the use issues that's a very good point this may be an unfair question with all the complexities that we've been discussing but looking ahead to the new year to 2020 what do you think might be the most urgent foreign policy challenge the u.s. Is facing I'd say the u.s. Has too urgent foreign policy issues that we haven't even touched on yet one is how do we deal with the rising China how do we both compete in the areas where we need to compete cooperate in the areas in which we have common interests and have a very nuanced policy towards China I think we've sort of been addressing China as the bogey man on economic issues or turning a blind eye on some of its human rights violations without at least in my view having a really comprehensive the nuance policy so I think that is urgent number one urgent foreign policy issue number 2 is climate change it is a global issue it affects us here at home and overseas it affects our economy and that's one where I don't think we've seen the trumpet ministration show leadership quite the contrary I will add a 3rd 3rd is finally ending all of these wars or bringing these wars to a close be it Syria or Afghanistan the unrest in Iraq. These are issues that continue to demand our attention because the human fallout is massive the fallout for u.s. Interests is massive so we need to continue working on those and to close friends as I just want to bring us back to the beginning we were talking about Ukraine and the impeachment inquiry let's just talk basically about why does Ukraine matter not just because it's at the heart of this impeachment inquiry but there are major national security and geo strategic implications because I'm referring to. The international ramifications of the United States appearing at least to side with Russia which is the aggressor and then we're seeing even this false narrative that Ukraine not Russia is guilty of hacking the Democratic National Committee and interfering in our 26000 elections Russia is surely benefiting from this scandal and it shows that senior members of the u.s. Administration were wavering in their support for our ally Ukraine and that of course is just music to the ears of bloody Amir Putin who wants to bring Ukraine back into the Russian orbit but that's really antithetical not just to u.s. Interests but also to Ukraine it wants to be independent there's a majority who want a more Western orientation greater democracy to rid themselves of corruption so talk about the implications of of that and why that's also very dangerous you know Ukraine is tremendously important for u.s. Foreign policy interests as you say it's essentially caught in the middle between the Russian sphere of influence on one side and western democracies on another it's literally in the middle geographically it's literally in the middle in terms of policy influence it's an emerging nascent democracy that is trying to assert independence at the same time we've seen Russia wage war on it so it's very much on the front lines. I think what happens in Ukraine is also important for u.s. Interest because it sends a message about how the u.s. Will stand behind or not stand behind our allies are emerging democracy partners who want to stand up to Russia and want to be independent and I think a lot of us partners and allies are watching closely what happens in this instance and it both it has great significance for what we'll see in the years to come France's Brown is a scholar with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and she is formally a White House national security staff are under the Obama and Trump administration's Francis thanks so much for coming in and sharing your deep insights on so many critical issues My pleasure thank you so much press conference USA on The Voice of America was produced in Washington thanks to Kim Lewis for booking our guest our engineer was just inflates And joining me on the program was v.o.a. Diplomatic correspondent Cindy saying I'm Carol Castillo join us again next week for another press conference USA on The Voice of America. This is v.o.a. News I'm Jim her tell thousands of people took to the streets of Hong Kong under the watch of riot police Sunday to demand more democracy and an investigation into the use of force to suppress the 6 month long anti-government demonstrations the protesters want to keep up pressure on city leader Kerry lam after pro-democracy candidates won a landslide victory in a district council election a week ago Iraq's parliament approved the resignation of Prime Minister Adel Abdul Mahdi on Sunday amid ongoing violence and anti-government demonstrations in the capital that saw one post protesters shot dead United Nations secretary general in Tony a good terror has delivered a strong statement to world leaders on Sunday ahead of a climate conference in Madrid writers David Dorrell reports you are confronted now with the global climate crisis and the point of no return is no longer over the horizon it is in sight and hurtling towards us. With regions on every continent experiencing extreme weather from wildfires to floods u.n. Secretary General Antonio be terrorised delivered a sharp rebuke to world leaders on Sunday and you'll know all were efforts to reach the start of goods have been utterly inadequate. The terrorist was speaking on the eve of a un climate summit in Madrid at which world leaders will be under pressure to do more that's Reuters David duel a regional bus in Tunisia crashed off a hill Sunday morning killing $22.00 passengers the interior ministry says $21.00 additional passengers are being treated at nearby hospitals Russian Emergency officials say $1000.00 people died Sunday when their bus plunged off a bridge under way.