Transcripts For SFGTV2 20131129

So while each man had their own goals going into the group, their successes together have tasted sweeter than they ever could have imagined, which makes sense. After all, how fulfilling are dreams if you cant share them with others . For california country, im tracy sellers. This is dedicated to the one i love now hes gonna sing. Im sure glad wheres my backup . You . Im sure glad youre in th wine business and not a singer. [laughter] that concludes todays tour of the best of alifornia country. Join us next time for more undiscovered treasures from the most fascinating state in the country. [captioning made possible by California Farm Bureau federation] [captioned by the naticnal captioning institute www. Ncicap. Org] come and experience Lafayette Park and enjoy the people, picnic and sunshine. This is a lovely place to take an afternoon stroll with your loved one hand in hand. Located at got and sacramento street in the middle of Pacific Heights on top of the citys steep rolling hills, Lafayette Park offers a great place, peaceful beauty. Comfortably spaced tables and benches, a playground, rest rooms and tips at the end of the park. Plenty of flat areas for football, frisbee, and picnic. Lafayette is very much a couples park. This wonderful hilltop park is the place you can share with someone you cherish. Lafayette park is located along the round at the one end campus and also easy what this is all about is your right to freedom of speech. What made America Great is an independent, vigorous presence. If a jerk burns a flag, america is not threatened. Political speech is the heart of the First Amendment. Theyre expressing their religious beliefs. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of gods children. Captioning provided by the Freedom Forum First Amendment Center Welcome to speaking freely, a weekly conversation about the First Amendment and free expression. Im ken paulson, executive director of the First Amendment center, and this is a special edition of the program in recognition of banned books week. It features three very special guests. They include judy blume, one of this countrys most popular and most frequently censored authors, Carolivia Herron, whose criticallyacclaimed book, nappy hair, was challenged in a brooklyn school, and cammie mannino, a bookseller who took a stand against censorship. Welcome to all of you. I have to begin with judy. You know, there are these lists every year about the most banned books. Each and every year, youre in the top five. Youre sort of the beatles of banned books. How did you obtain this status, and what are you doing wrong . Uhoh, you know, youre asking the wrong person. Its never the the person who wrote the books is always surprised. You have to ask the people who ban the books. I can go back to 1980, and i can say to you of course, i remember, you know, what was it . It was a shock to me. It was anything to do with sexuality, which, for my characters, was puberty; any language that people found offensive, sometimes lack of moral tone, whatever that is. I think it has to do with hitting the kids i didnt hit them over the head with right and wrong. Gosh, what else . Were you writing a different kind of book than existed in 1968, before you began writing . Well, i never thought about that, you know . I mean, i was a young woman who sat down to write books and to be as honest and truthful as i could be. I remembered very well what it was like to be in sixth grade. And that was when i started. It never occurred to me in my wildest dreams, one, that people would actually read my books or write to me about them; and twoi mean, the idea of banning a book. This is america. It was such a shock to me, and i had nowhere to turn. I didnt have the publishers behind me. No one was doing anything. It was all we dont talk about this. It was shocking and sad. And you had a tenyear period of successful books before the censorship kicked in. Wasnt it the 80s that you began to see 1980 waswas yes, yes. But there had been some. I mean, there was a woman who called me after are you there god . Its me margaret. Was published. She just looked me up in the phone book, and she said, are you the one who wrote that book . And i was really excited, and i said, yes. And she called me a communist, and she hung up. So, you know, there we are. Well, your experiences were markedly different from the experiences surrounding a book called nappy hair. And weve got a copy of it here, because thisthis author was under attack. But more directly, a teacher was under attack. Yes. And one of those wonderful stories that the author runs to the rescue. Could you talk a little bit about nappy hair, what the books about, and how you first heard about, kind of, the outrage directed towards this book . Yes, the book actually started out as a recording of my uncle richard telling the story of my own nappy hair. Its a very personal story. This story has been growing since i was a little girl and was born with the nappiest hair in my family. And i was teaching at harvard a course in oral poetry, and i just recorded it to share with the class. I had, actually, no intention of making this Childrens Book out of it. But i shared it with an africanamerican audience. They loved it so much, i decided to go for a Childrens Book because of popular demand. So you could imagine how surprising it was to have it have somebody disagree with it and telling me i was told, you know, that i sold my race down the river and that sort of thing. But the actual what happened, i was teaching in california. I was looking at television or something in the evening and got a phone call. This voice hello, are you Carolivia Herron . The same sort of thing; yes. And did you write this book called nappy hair . And the same sort of, oh, boy, whats coming up next . You know, some invitation to do this. Yes. Did you hear what happened . And theres a strange sound in her voice it was ruth sherman, the teacher, the white teacher who had been chased out of the classroom for reading this book to her class of africanamerican and latino children. She had shared the book in september. It was november. One parent became upset, returned to the school with 50 people, called all the Major Networks so they had cameras out in front of the school and went into the school and chased her out into the cameras so that you actually got the the pictures going around the world in about ten minutes. And sheand this was her voice that night. She said sheeverybody told her not to call me. She found me on the internet, but she was determined to call me, because she wanted to know, what did i do wrong . There were a couple of interesting twists, too, in that they werent objecting to the book so much as the photocopies of the book, which meant they were looking at pictures that were much more dark and contrasted. Much darker. And the people who objected to it were generally africanamerican parents . Were 100 african americans. I dont think any other group complained about it. And i think the darkness of the photocopies was one of thewhat i consider the three problems. The second has to do with the fact that the teacher is white, and the third is the true core of the problem the word nappy being a blackonblack insult in many africanamerican families and communities. My family didnt do it, my immediate family. But i can remember people saying, you know, get your nappy headed self over here. You cant go outside with those naps on your head, that sort of thing. And little girls hearing that all your life, of course, by the time you get to be a teenager or an adult, you dont want to hear the word nappy again. And the wonderful story the rest of the story is the way you actually jumped in and defended this. Oh, yes, i was in new york within 48 hours. I actually went to brooklyn and could not get into the school when i tried to talk to the people there. Then i went on several television appearances. And i went anywhere, anytime to defend her, no matter what it took. And indeed, i ended up having to leave my position there, because i felt that it was too important. The gift to be a writer is too great, and you cant say, well, i have this requirement to do this other small thing. And it was very hard, but i had to leave what i was doing. Youve been an educator at prestigious institutions. What does it tell you . What does it say when parents rise up in anger about that kind of content being taught in a classroom . [sighs] id like to know first of all, they didnt read the book. And its so hard to what can you say when they dont read it . And i can on one hand, they say, well, why should we read it . We think its a bad book, so we dont want to spend our money on it. And so they dont read it, and then they protest it, and they feel like they dont the people who tell them what the book is like are not telling them the truth. And they feel like they dont want to spend any money on a book that they may not like. But theres a library. There are all kinds of ways to find out, you know, the content of a book. And it means that people are rather ignorant, quite frankly. I mean, what else can you say . I actually met the very person, the one parent who was complaining about the book. blume i was going to ask how that happened in the first place. Was it a child who went home and said, we heard a story today in school . No, the teacher photocopied the book. The childrenrealize these children could not read at all. They were third graders who could not read. And ruth did everything she could to get em to read. She got this book. And because its a call and response book, each child got to answer back their own little part, do a little dance, you know, and all the kind of fancy stuff. And they loved the book so much, the begged for a copy. And thats where the problem began. She made a photocopy. Every child had one. It just so happened that one parent saw a photocopy, and that began the problem. paulson theres a lesson here obey the copyright laws. [laughter] well, you know, thats problematic for me, a 17 book and a poor little school. What can you expect a teacher to do, of course, after all . So you were ahead of napster; that was [laughter] your files were being downloaded to young people. Yeah, mmhmm. There are a lot of heroes on this stage. And in your case, you fight for a teacher who taught your book. In your case, you decide to defend a book that had been banned from a local school. And it couldnt have been, necessarily, a safe position to take as a businesswoman in town. How does a bookseller get involved in defending a book . Well, it was kind of an interesting way. Iwhat was happening was that a teacher in the seventh grade teaching seventh grade english and social studies was using the book shabanu by Suzanne Fisher staples, a newberry honor book, to teach to seventh graders who were doing a unit on the near east. And 90 children read the book, and it was a very successful book. She was a very imaginative, very strong teacher. And one parent objected to the book. Page 223 you know how that goes had a reference on it to something vaguely sexual that made hershe said made her daughter uncomfortable. She was making her daughter read the book aloud to her in the seventh grade, which was a little unusual. When the book was when she protested to the principal, the principal basically panicked and caved. And instead of following the procedures that the School District had at one time set up for dealing with contested books, she began passing the book around to colleagues and friends at the central office, you know, and said, would you read page 223 . And what should i do about it . And nasty phone calls started coming in to the teacher, et cetera. At 7 55 in the morning, the teacher would get these threatening phone calls, saying, you are you know, were going to do something about you, because youre teaching pornography. And what happened ultimately the way i found out about it was, first i got a phone call from the School District with a very strange, abstract question, which was, is it legal to rip pages out of a book . And i said, well, there is the First Amendment. Thats one law that i think would apply, but basically, its an ethics issue. And i heard this in an abstract way, and i didnt know what book it was about at the time. They asked me whether i thought it was a good idea they had a book that was controversial, and they thought they wouldnt have the children read the ending, and then they would imagine their own ending. And i didnt think that was going to be very sound. That was the last i heard about it. During the summer, the teacher came to me and said, i need a book to teach to seventh graders about the near east. I said, what about shabanu daughter of the wind . She said, let me tell you about shabanu daughter of the wind. Thats how i found out the book had been censored. So at that point, i began a twoyear campaign to wear down the School Administration till they finally got so sick of me that they finally ended up putting the book back in the curriculum. And it was quite a process. At the end of it, the author, Suzanne Fisher staples, who has her books censored like judys all the time, i emailed her to tell her that it was back in the curriculum. And she wrote me this wonderful email in which she wasshe said, im weeping into my computer, because this is the first time i have ever had any of my books reinstated in a curriculum after being censored. I have a question for you. I can understand that you went to you went to battle because of one line that offended one person. But theres also theres also been criticism of the book from the Islamic Community mmhmm, yes. I addressed that too, actually. As being a stereotype. If that had been the criticism, would you have fought with less vigor . No, because i think i could have answered that. I think that what happens when we theres a bunch of things that happen when a book gets challenged that way. I actuallywhat i would do and what i have done, actually, in the course and process of this thing that i did with the schools was, i talked to Suzanne Fisher staples about that criticism and to see what she would say. And her answer was, i think, applicable in so many situations. She said, this is not a book about islam. This is not a book about muslims. This is a book about one family in one small culture in the cholistan desert in pakistan, and it cant be used to teach about all muslims or all people of pakistan, even. And she said thats true of every author. Every author is writing about one family and their just like carolivias book. Its one family and their experience, and its not meant certainly it has universal meaning, but its not supposed to its a story. Its meant to tell the story of that family. And i learned a lot from suzanne, listening and thinking about that, that i, maybe, have made the mistake in the past, too, of recommending books without thinking that i was trying to generalize too much about what it could teach. She said, to say that this book is a book about the muslim world, for instance, would be to say that faulkner is the only example of america that we can get from american literature, that that speaks for every american. It doesnt; it speaks for a culture within america, a language within america, a part of america. But it doesnt is not pretending to speak for the american culture. Or she said, imagine if we said that faulkner represented all christians because it so happened that the people in his book happened to be christian people. Its a family; its a story. As a bookseller, what happens when a book is challenged . Does that sell more copies or fewer . In this case, it didnt have any impact. I would imagine that it would in general, it would sell more. In the case of nappy hair im sure carolivia would know. Yeah, that was certainly the case with your book. People came in immediately. I had copies, hooray, hooray. But people came in right away asking for it who i dont think knew about it before. Right. paulson how many copies before the controversy and how many after . It sold 13,000 copies a day before the controversy, which was in late november. And on january 1st, it was up to 100,000. [audience gasps] and thatthat really reinforces, carolivia astonishing. Yeah, hooray, hooray, yes. Every country has its own siberia, and thats our siberia, yeah. blume nevertheless, we would rather not its true; isnt it funny . Be censored. And what im hearing here is very interesting, because were hearing two examples of books that were challenged because they offended this group or that group. And im not talking about page 200 and whatever right. And whatever that reference to sexuality is which is different. I mean, this is a growing problem. I see it as a growing problem where it was once you know, the extreme religious right that came after my books. Its as if everyone now has permission. Well, i dont like that, and thats offensive to my child. And so its instead of going away, its really growing. And its coming from all sides now, which is a difference. We talk about censorship and that causes sales. That probably is not the case with somebody like yourself, an established author. People sort of know what theyll get. And, in fact, i would think thered be some pressure to publish a safe judy blume book thatyou know. Is there ever a temptation to selfcensor . Selfcensor is very dangerous. And i think the more we are aware, as authors, of uhoh, this is going to get me in trouble, its dangerous. Im really happy that i wrote what i wrote before i knew about any of this. But ii certainly have the experience of being asked on several occasions two that i can think of of taking something out of a book by a beloved editor. And whatd you do . [sighs] this is so hard. The first time, i did it. And i felt so awful about it and i still do to this day, because i knew that it was right emotionally right for my character. The second time, it was one word. And i could have changed that one word. The only word, by the way, the f word in this book, spoken by a very, very angry 15yearold, an extremely articulate 15yearold in an articulate family so that the word was very powerful when he used that. I was told that if i changed that word, i wouldnt lose all the book club sales. You talk about more sales . No, no, no. Its less sales, because the book clubs will not touch your book. One word. If i changed it to another word that started with f, no problem. I dont know what were supposed to say here. Were on camera. And thought about it. I looked it up in the dictionary, a meaningless word intensifier is what it said. I talked to my grown son. I said, i dont know what to do. And he said, you are judy blume. You stand for honesty and truth. How could you even consider changing it . And so i didnt, and so we lost all the book club sales. And it was mentioned in reviews, in School Journals so that teachers would know if they ordered this book there was a word in it. It justit boggles the mind very expensive word. That this is where we are. This is a recent a more recently published book than some of the others. You know, another trend we hear of today that you didnt see early in your career is a concern, i think, about the occult, witches, the supernatural, and the backlash against harry potter. What do you make of that . Anyany thoughts on that . Well, i think its there was a very interesting article, actually, in the horn book in the may june edition of this year of horn book, in which a conservative christian tried to explain to all of us why this was a problem. And it was a very good article, because it kind of helped me to at least step back long enough, take a deep breath and understand that for some people witchcraft is real, you know . It is the working of the devil in the world. And putting your child in the way of witchcraft is putting them in front, she said, of a bus about to hit them. I think that was a good, useful article, and she did it in a very calm voice. But i think what the problem is is that we dont have people at the front lines and, you know and this includes publishers, booksellers, librarians. We dont have enough people in the front lines who will say, well, fine; you know, your child we will make sure that your child does not read that book. But there are a lot of children for whom that literature is wonderfully feeding and wonderfully creative. And harry potter has been, in so many ways ajust a well, ive said it before just a golden chance for us to talk to children about the First Amendment, because they love the book in a deep, you know, passionate kind of way that makes them understand how important it is to have that feeding. I think Madeleine Lengle has talked about this many times, cause she certainly experienced it years ago with a wrinkle in time. Same thing, a kind of backlash against fantasy. And there are people for whom that is a problem. But the problem is that they want the rest of us to adhere to the same worldview. Thats where it becomes problematical. For years, its been long, long, long before harry potter, i would go out and speak about the three ss. It was sexuality, swearwords, and satan. And thats been true for a very long time. People would ban choose to ban books. Satans been there. The other issue, beyond the three ss, i think, is an issue about well, sensitivity, a fourth in that your book raised concerns among africanamerican parents who thought it was stereotypical. We also see a book like Huckleberry Finn being banned because of the racial epithet. Whats your take on that . Oh, boy, what a mess we get into with all those. I have a final paper by one of my students in chico who loves this book nappy hair, telling how wonderful this book is and how could people love a book like Huckleberry Finn and teach that when theres a book like nappy hair to look at . And the very same sentences where he was saying he has the right to have this book, hes saying we shouldnt have the right for Huckleberry Finn. The n word can hurt so bad that there needs to be some a little bit of education before you get into it. And again, my wonderful father when i first read that book, he sort of sat me down and told me, you know, what the book was doing and all this sort of thing. And i admired the book so much that i actually went around when i was in high school and in college, i would dramatize the part of jim to try to get people to see what was what i felt was really going on. Im very muchi mean, hey, you know, samuel clemens. Lets hear it for mark twain. Hes wonderful. I cant stand the thought that people are going to throw out Huckleberry Finn and put nappy hair in. You know, thats not the way. Let me ask one of the things people who work in the area of fighting off censorship, we tend to demonize people who want to censor. There is a sense that, you know, these are the people who walk into walls, and theyre not wellread, and they theyre just determined to shut out the world. But are there times when a parent could go to a School Administrator and say, look, my son or daughter is reading this in the fourth grade, and its really not appropriate . Would that always be wrong . I think a thoughtful a thoughtful parent coming into school to talk about something is always welcome. Its the zealot that we all jump away from. Thoughtfulness is appreciated always. Is itis it, then, that teachers job to change the book . I dont know. mannino well, im hoping that the decision people make bad decisions. I mean, not every book thats taught in the Public Schools is a wonderful book. I mean, i think we can all agree to that. There are books i mean, ive known people whove read goosebumps books aloud to third grade, and i think, you know, id let them read em themselves. That doesnt seem, to me, to make a very good read aloud. I agree with judy. I mean, i think if someone came in and said, you know, i really want to question whether this is really appropriate for somebody in the fourth grade, i would want to talk about that. And it would depend on what the person said that i might not teach that book again. But they would have to be awfully convincing if id thought which we would hope ahead of time teachers had about appropriateness before they selected the book. I find my bigger problem with teachers is not taking risks, but, you know, its that theyre not taking risks. Not that they are and getting in trouble. Its that theyre censoring before the book ever reaches the child. Im getting teachers saying, well, now, i really cant take that book, because it has a witch on the cover. I really cant take that book, because ive heard it has this or that in it. And, in fact, i just had it last week. I mean, i have it almost weekly, that i deal with this in one way or another, either with a parent or with a teacher. And so what im worried about is a sort of blanding out. And when the teacher that taught shabanu, who was the most wonderful woman i mean, she should really be here. She was the genius behind how the book was taught. When at the very end of this process, someone the final salvo with somebody at the administration calling her in and saying to her, well, why would you want to teach a Controversial Book . And she had the most wonderful response. She said, well, can you name any book that is meaningful and meaty that i could teach that wouldnt be controversial to someone . You know, any book that really has content someone is going to be offended by it. Its only the most bland kind of literature, the kind of formulaic literature with no voice and no character and no whatever thats going to meet the test of everybodys going to be yawning, but no one will be offended. I do want to speak on behalf of the publishers for a moment, because after years and years and years of running scared and im not saying that they still arent scared, but i doi think i see a new dawn coming, where theyve had it. Theyve had enough, and they are beginning to be willing to take some risks again. And i think, maybe, the harry potter controversy or maybe theyve just seen how well scholastic has done with it. [laughter] but ii hope that i do see this, that the fear is lessening and theyre beginning to stand up. A wonderful conversation. Thank you all for joining us today. Im ken paulson. Back next week with another conversation about the First Amendment and free expression. Hope you can join us then for speaking freely. Captioning provided by the Freedom Forum First Amendment center captioning by captionmax www. Captionmax. Com we are celebrating the glorious grand opening of the chinese rec center. 1951, 60 years ago, our first kids began to play in the chinese wrecks center rec center. I was 10 years old at the time. I spent just about my whole life here. I came here to learn dancing. By we came we had a good time. Made a lot of friends here. Crisises part of the 2008 clean Neighborhood Park fund, and this is so important to our families. For many people who live in chinatown, this is their backyard. This is where