But i think back in 1962 and before and after that both sides recognize that security is a sort of 1st and foremost, this is tammy a structural issue rather than a moral or emotional one and that security achieving security. It takes a lot of painstaking work. A lot of very technical negotiations. Ringback about where, what kind of weapons in what number should be located. And i would argue that most casteel insist on this quantitative approach, whether theyre west wants to trade in very emotional terms. You know, these were made in the ukraine, should not be given to the russian bully, we should not succumb to russias blackmail. Do you think thats intentionally manipulative or did the west indian lose the ability to look at security strategically in terms of rational objectives without passing moral judgments . First of all, i have to say that the west is a bit divided on this. And in the vanguard of a sort of new cold war behaviors, it is, the anglo saxon country is u. K. United states and australia. Interestingly enough, and some france and germany rather more reluctant to pose it in quite such stock. Not just a geopolitical strategic terms, but indeed ethical moral terms 1st. And 2nd, yes, this is again a reflection of the failure after 1909 to established. What you suggest is an indivisible piece order. What are the west seems to have had, is a 30 year young just like great in a sense they had before cuba. And that you know, of unprecedented dominance. And why this is portrayed in such darkly cold war, many can black and white terms. Is because this 30 year young is coming to an end. Suddenly it comes as a shock to understand that russia was no longer going to accept that you know, this endless expansion. And they go back commercial policy, strangely enough, is, you know, go by 12 in policy, its a yes in policy and put it. And his successor is to say that security is indivisible. That is the 2nd leg off that whole how think a paris charter is terrible as down a declaration, all of these declarations. But the west has been focusing on one aspect that each country can choose, its own security alliances. Whereas both last kind of caused by gene, because interesting enough, beijing, china has actually quite said the west must take into account your security concerns is, is indivisibility. And thats what were failed to do for 30 years. And like in cuba, that we simply have now a moment of awakening realization that you have to we have to go back to the negotiating table. The russians have a long complained about the existence of double standards. But i think what were increasingly hearing back from european lease is that these are, these double offenders are justified, morally justified. Because the west is on the right side of history. And you know, for me, the person who was born in leningrad with all the painful history and actually at the hands of certain western european power. You know, i cannot, how, how, you know, hearing certain intention connotations and these type of rhetoric needing western leaders, western Decision Makers understand how this sort of moral discourse is perceived here in russia. Because whatever you think about putin, you know, his a, you know, hes a strategic thinker, you can deny that. But his family history, his own personal history, is also rooted in certain events in russia history. And i think hes genuinely sensitive to russians being portrayed of being treated as one to mention. Absolutely. One of his speeches about 15 years ago, he said that russians are treated as if theyre barbarians whove just come down from the trees. And of course, this is again, ill go back to the issue this, its a, you know, a lot of personalities involved. But ultimately its a systemic issue about how the cold war ended up going back to back. Because it really is, this is what this class is over your claim. Now the, the, so could, you know, the, the Russian Troops and the one side of the military exercises on the other. One is all about the sense that we have a system. The western old, i feel like the liberal, international order, which is democracy and human rights and all good stuff. And the point is, is that the russian vision is not opposed to it by the image is simply saying that there were 2 piece orders at the end of the cold war. There was that gorbachev youre in transformation will have to establish a framework in which russia can feel comfortable. Whereas the liberal idea puts, rather than emphasizing politics. So security is nationalist interest. Its all about the over emphasis on principles which will support, but it has to be politics, is all about a balance between values and interests. And by over emphasizing values, you actually undermine the interests of all concerned, hasnt your mom can be ill advised escalation before and looking it from a tactical rather than strategic perspective. Some analysts in moscow speculated that putting out those ultimatum style demands and massing, chinks on rushes, western borders allowed moscow to make west Pay Attention to the issues any concerns that werent even considered as deserving attention. Only year ago, starting and dialogue on security principles in europe. Isnt that a small break . So in and of itself . Yes, no, absolutely. I can quite understand that argument. And again, thats why cuba is important by planning to put michelles on cuba. They actually build the u. S. To negotiating table. And of course, it was a success with the soviet union that you are to miss out with the to and from turkey. And a promise was given not to invade cuba again, like to buy pigs the previous, you know, just why you could argue though, till advised is that yes, the door has been opened to negotiation now to the issues which have been waiting both the l saying well garbage of yeltsin and put in, but you know why till advised. Its that its not so much the door was opened, door was smashed down, and so maybe a more delicate way, opening that door may have been better advised, but then youd say there was refusing to open the door. So the only way to get it was to smash it down. I understand that argument. Now the door is misplaced, one way or another for in order for the tops to continue. It requires some sort of for the, you have a degree of negotiating skills and certain conception of a level Playing Field given that after you know, for the last 30 years the, what has been assuming its vision has to be accepted and complied with. No questions asked, do you think theres still sort of a feel sad where these negotiations to continue rather than you know, going with value preaching, media friendly and etc. All those exactly are skills that the west is so good at practicing. Yeah, no, absolutely. And compared to those leaders, im thinking of jack kennedy and Robert Kennedy in 1962, who in many studies have shown just how intelligent and of course they resisted the military. Talk of the defense secretary at the time. Mcnamira was actually, you know, advising that we cant put up with this. We need military action. And of course, in washington today, theres hotheads who actually saying that as well. So absolutely do they have the skill set . The responses to your Social Security trinity ideas develop delivered in december. The answer from nato showed a completely inadequate response. It was highly, i do apologized. And of course it completely closed the door to a possibility of negotiation. However, the u. S. Response was actually far more nuanced and it so i actually think that biden, despite his own personal inclinations as somebody who has been at the head of a u. S. Foreign policy for shaping it. For many, many years he had, he met with put it in june 20 last year for the geneva negotiations. And of course because they went nowhere. Thats another reason why gosh, has continued bashing the door with its force mobilization. And they arent, that this response actually does suggest room for negotiation and maneuver. So the diplomatic us answer was, you know, obviously disappointed. Russia all sorts of ways, but its kept the door. The door is still open, i think is a Huge Positive american response also include flying lethal weapons into your crane and increasing. And you know, as your contingent in europe, the western media and i filled with reports about the imminent war. And i think even though those people in moscow who used to dismiss it as you know, just part of the american, a muscle flexing is sort of the political postering. Then getting a little bit nervous, especially taking into account the temperament our, the political temperament of our ukrainian neighbors. How likely is that an open confrontation at this point . Do you think they could be a, why not a big war, but still a war . Firstly, u. S. Response actually did open the door to the band on a deployment of to i miss south and so on in your thing. But obviously the, what they would call the defensive weapons is being rushed in by the anglo saxon powers. Dont forget that germany refused to allow britain overflow rights over so it has to go over the baltic and denmark. Theres a huge military industrial complex. Remember that communist eisenhower wound against the military industrial complex. And of course, its only got more powerful. So biden in opening, keeping the door open for negotiation and it is by didnt. Its not blinking the secretary of state or jake sullivan, the National Security advisor. It is binding, personally, whoever you are them. But of course, as you say, even zelinski, the president of your claim is saying that there is no immediate creator 5 full scalable. So no, and the, the idea of an invasion is very much a london washington thing. Its not a european stance apart from poles and the bunker publics, of course the, the suspects so is the situation is extremely dangerous. An idea for russian invasion, ive always said, its simply, you know, nothing is excluded but extremely unlikely. If any action did come in defense, it would be using long, long range to act, weapons, and so on. And another thing to remember is that ukrainians have over a 110000 forces on its side of the border. And of course, in part the russian, semi mobilization, is to prevent a sudden attack on the dung. Best of the sort as a by john had against the territories of armenian occupied it. Youre not going to come back. So the military situation is extremely dangerous, has been for the last 10 years and getting worse military exercises on both sides. Planes flying within inches of each other. So an accident is just waiting to happen. Well, what is also waiting to happen is a little break. We have to take it right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. Mm. A. Algorithms and Neural Networks have been following us everywhere. We look online because our relationships are what matters most of us. Thats how we find meaning. And how we make sense of our place in the Silicon Valley see, dont mention in that sneak presentations. However, the ghost workers who train the software humans are involved in every step of the process when youre using anything online. What were sold, as is, miracle of automation. Behind your screen is a valuable workforce that feeds algorithms for next to nothing and a very good day to do 5. 00. Now. A really bad day. I can. These workers are invisible by design. Its about labor costs, but its also about creating layers of lessening responsibility between those who solicit this kind of work and need it. And those who do it with me. Welcome back to wells of course with richard sackler, professor of russian and european politics at the university of kent. This is what, in the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned the principle indivisibility of security. That the russians are insisting on, which is essentially an idea that no contra should enhance and security at the expense of another country. But when we look at russia, a country that occupies a quarter of the European Land mass, its pretty clear that its secure to interest somewhat larger than, lets say, the security interest of a storage, georgia or even mid sized european states. And its not only a matter of security, its also a matter of responsibility when it comes to, lets say, if i against terrorism or the fight against an infectious diseases, you know, russia is usually expected to intervene when things go awry. And as i do, for example, in conflicts on defending, not only income and government, but also western sub central western investments in that country recently. Why do you think the west has such a big difficulty accepting that russia would have a certain area of not only influence, but also responsibility in this part of the world. Indeed, again, when has to come back to the a post cold war settlement where there was no decision, no, no framework for behavior of their so called post soviet space. And guy from the beginning, there was a sort of a neo containment policy. Is that the fair russian imperialism coming back . So you call it responsibility and leadership . And i think that us as the, the major power just like United States in its own region, in china, to a degree. And its part of the world has responsibilities. But this was never counted by the western powers because of that vision of a liberal, international order, which is like a universal monro doctrine. It means that they can be no regional spheres of influence. Even regional phase of security werent allowed. Because that would, by definition, infringe this universalism of the west. But now all of that model is being challenged. And as you say, you should just have your sponsibility. In addition, as a permanent member of United Nations Security Council says not just regional, but oh, even global responsibilities rises been so difficult for the west shock. Second, because i dont understand why they would have, if you, lets say 30 years ago after all the transfers associated with the end of the cold war and the collapse of the soviet union. But now these, the United States doesnt have the means or the desire to involve itself in every part of the world. They just withdrew from afghanistan because they dont want to waste their resources. They do, they really want to be a sort of a global policeman. Lets say in catholics or energy, just not even in georgia or your brain when things go arrive there. When they run a different russia to deal with it and pretend i interest as wow, yes it to put to decay. But the phrase would then be, they would say, is that they can be no challenge to the soviet international. Soviet independence of countries that you came from. Because then of course, theres a part of element of w hundreds because as we saw interventions in serbia 1999 it up later, libya and so on. But yeah, the idea of russia as the regional head, human or oh, jamaica is not been accepted. That is why the western power, so nato absolutely refuses to engage with a collective security, treat organization which was involved in kazakhstan as an organization. So youre fuses to give space. I think thats of course, one of those big elements on the agenda today. And it will be helped of course, by the guys of china, which is also finally moving from a unit polar world to a multi polar world. But its very painful person for those in washington and london to understand that this, like some russian coming day to say, 0500 year period of western dominance is coming to an end. So theres a lot of civilizational cultural issues involved as well as security factors. Now speaking about the collapse of the soviet union, which i mentioned before, last year, march 30th anniversary of this historic event. And there is an burgeoning debate here in russia, an analyst about that of the solidity and resilience of the state of the former soviet republics that deal a t to exist as self deficient, responsible, independent states who can take care of all the issues that may happen in dietary, to be the terrorism on the spread of infectious diseases. What, what have you. Weve seen a succession of crisis in on this territory, starting with georgia. Ukraine gets done armenian bellows. Now potentially it gets done. I do sort of natural growing pains. Do you think the map of, of this region is still not set in stone . Im not even implying that russia would come and take over them. Im just asking us specifically about there are 2 of those trees or stage to exist in all the south. Absolutely. So this 30 a pair says, since the disintegration of the soviet union is still continuing, some people say that slow motion collapses continuing. Oh is too much to is taken much longer to build nations and states in the region. This is where jacksons i day of negative sovereignty is important. Where the only sovereignty is that given by outside, by the international system, was internally, these countries are divided and unable to establish genuine qualities. I think you claim this one of those, and weve seen this since 2014, that the Enormous Division between these 2 models of statehood one which is pluralistic, ingenuous and encompassing its multiple identities. And the other one, which is the new nationalist exclusive its vision, which is why this crisis, todays, at the intersection of the crisis of the post cold water and the crisis of stated in particular. And you can, but as you say, some of the other Central Asian states and of course have courses as well. So rush, i surrounded by a whole stack of unstable se. And of course, the whole region across it is tensions. And, you know, when you say afghanistan come outside and elsewhere, so its a very dangerous part of the world. And as you say, russia is the most powerful state in that has certain responsibilities, but obviously not to infringe the sovereignty of the states. And russia has no intention of doing so. If we look at the soviet subsidies, the former soviet publics, im not mistaken. The largest amount per capita went to georgia. Where is the biggest received in absolute terms . Was ukraine and both of the states now nurse, theyre invisible animosity towards russia. And im pretty sure that the russian leadership is quite aware of that. When you hear that put in was nothing more to mean corporate ukraine or george a did believe it is after nonsense. This was the Hillier Clinton line of to the announcement of the what was going to be the nation union. You as an economic union. She said to in a famous speech in dublin, we know what poaching wants, and which is, as it was to create the soviet empire. And we know how to stop it. Well, ive been trying to stop at this imagination since the beginning. So no putin came to power, one of his 1st things he wanted to do all the way through was to stabilize existing borders to actually build up the domestic sovereignty of the states. Yes, democracy human rights. An important element of that. But also state capacity, just a simple ability to govern your space in a reasonably effective manner. You claim, for example, today has a lower g d p per capita than it had an independence in 1991. Its a fuss. And so in many ways, if you actually turn they to take it over for, to have responsibility for a country which cannot manage, its a phrase in a humane and democratic manner and extremely hostile population, disability infrastructure, lots and lots of problems. Many ration analysts argue that taking over ukraine, taking responsibility over ukraine, would be the worst thing to happen to russia, that it would be a major blow to its own ability to develop itself and be a strong great power. Do you agree with that . That would be suicidal or russia, it would be absolutely suicidal it would be equal. And perhaps even far, far, far worse than the soviet invasion of afghanistan in december, 1979. Which of course, pigeon ski and other started to say they deliberately pulled the soviet union into that fatal mistake. And a strategists in washington today, no doubt would like to see augusta make this huge mistake. Because, you know, an invasion is unthinkable quite apart from the loss of life and quite a pop that you canyon people, the people over there, russian people overwhelmingly peaceful. All they want is to develop and live normal decent human lives. Now, he quoted, i mean, also argues that men get womens is the only way to go. And i wonder if thats really the case because they had of ukraine Security Council like alexey denila, a few days ago, warren, that if the west were to continue pressing or to start pressing rather ukraine to comply with the mens grim and its current terms. It could, is stabilized deciding as the stable act as it is already from within. And i think there is a certain kernel of truth and that because if we remember the situation back in 2013, it was the sudden you try on the issue of the integration with the European Union that led to the uprising and the you know, very, very passionate reactions from the ukrainians. Its i to do you think the misc agreement as as good as it may be as a satisfying, as if maybe to the outside powers. Do you think the Ukrainian Society can digest it now after pouring acid in it for so many years . No, it cant. But still its the only way forward. So in a sense, we have a, an impossible problem. The only way forwards is not a way forwards. The, the means containment, as you say, it hasnt the and i will say that their responsibility lies to some of the members of the normandy format, france and germany. In particular, because on many occasions, anglin morocco refused to put pressure on care of the meeting in december 2019 after zalinski was elected. Dont forget, he was elected as the piece candidate with overwhelming majority. If you claim people reflecting what i say, the majority of your opinions wont piece, and i know that its quite clear yet what happened, even as they were meeting in france, was put in a lensky. People these the, the, the near nationalists as i call them this, not call them fashion. Lets not call them anything extreme. These are just near nationalists who have a very limited vision of your kind of started. They were mobilizing already in kid. They. So you could say this out to a guy twin, the radical around twin is holding your claim, nation and state hostage. And so, you know, earlier on those in the dont bus shirt opinion poll showed they were happy to return to canyon sovereignty. As long as they could have a level of live miss taken, coco auto political autonomy. Today, you could say, what do the people that dont bass want nearly over 650000 now have russian passports. So its, its, you know, its got even more of a tangled and difficult issue. But you know, at least within the mens format they may well build a normandy for me to have negotiations. I also think the United States should join it because ultimately european powers have shown themselves to be ineffective and unable even to stand up to their normative principles. Again, where we say a tax on the russian language and culture. Wheres the European Response to that . Well, professor, what we have to leave it there. Thank you very much for being with us today. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for watching hope to hear again next week on the wells apart. Ah, with me for a Digital Smart city is a city thats using technology to make peoples life easier to happier, collecting a lot of data to try to improve the way things are in theory, these big organizations that are amalgamating and pulling all that data together. Theyre not looking at you as an individual, necessarily peoples data being collected so much data that as a real possibility of privacy violation. And thats something most of us wouldnt want to wells transparent to prove that we must live with permanent surveillance. My situation is the worlds most proficiency unsustainable exploitation of its fish dogs, which maureen biodiversity undergoing thread, and your selection. Again, quote us, we should get a guest on the system because our system, im not going to pull leaky capital for a tech and want to put our lives despite the eas promises to end over fishing by 2020. The situation is changing to slow. Well, im very disappointed with the politicians that they basically not in public interests. They also do not in the interest of officials. Theyre only for interest of the fishery. Moby on the face of the only ones in danger. The fishermen also at risk of losing or picking them up someone group or they get to them about that. Im going to bubble on, i guess it might be real soon. Then there wouldnt be viewership block on screen in a book or with what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on a fence. Very dramatic and development only personally and getting to resist. I dont see how that strategy will be successfully, very difficult time. Time to sit down and talk a canadian city of ottawa declares a state of Emergency Response to the truck, a convoy protest against vaccine mandate. The city mayor site serious danger and threat to residency. And also in the stories that shaped the week on our international rush, our shuttle down to Moscow Office of german broadcaster willa after berlin blush. Archies sister general r t d in germany. Australian curling team member is allowed to compete at the beijing Winter Olympics despite testing called is it for cove, it we ask if the rules are for some countries but not for others. And at least 6 children are killed in northwest syria. As american commandos claim